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PsiloPsychIn
PsiloPsychIn



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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: shr00mFer]
#27603175 - 01/02/22 01:26 AM (2 years, 27 days ago) |
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Did you pasteurize the horse manure pellet mixture? Was your spawn clean / bacteria free?
I don’t have a ton of experience, but generally if I’ve done the above it doesn’t stink at all.
-------------------- What are they saying? Listen carefully, it might be something you need to hear...
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shr00mFer
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: PsiloPsychIn]
#27603189 - 01/02/22 02:04 AM (2 years, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
PsiloPsychIn said: Did you pasteurize the horse manure pellet mixture? Was your spawn clean / bacteria free?
I don’t have a ton of experience, but generally if I’ve done the above it doesn’t stink at all.
Sure it stinks for a first few days (shit stinks, right) but when colonization takes it toll it changes from stink to nice "earthy" or "forest" smell. At least it was like that with my successful grows using manure.
But if after 10 days it still stinks (and didnt even colonize) its probably bacterial contam or some other. So i'll throw it away.
Yes, pasteurized properly. Spawn smelled ok, even the jar that didnt recolonized after the shake. Will make some more jars (from agar) and try again.
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V.L


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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: moonwatcher]
#27603208 - 01/02/22 03:03 AM (2 years, 27 days ago) |
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Hey, @V.L, do you case your cakes, as in roll them around in verm, like the old-style BRF cake tek suggests? Or is there no casing at all, just dunk and fruit? Also, do you still use potting soil and how soon after putting the cakes in the fruiting chamber do pins appear? Thanks
I'm attempting something like your tek at the moment, I spawned colonized grain to pasteurized potting soil and the BVI fully colonized in like 3 days - the bisporus took a tad bit longer, but is still colonizing the soil nicely.
Some of the fully colonized cakes I cased in the container, and a few I 'birthed' - took out of the 'mold', dunked and put in a large container with a partially open lid (fruiting chamber). Will see what happens.
For this kind of cakes I prepare the jars with casing included: casing around and nutritive sub in the center so after colonisation it’s like ready to fruit.. (I will try to do write-up one day..)
Cut view of it: inside hemp straw/millet around verm/peat moss
For pinning depending temp and genetics I would say usually between 2 and 5 days..
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Hindsight
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: shr00mFer]
#27603309 - 01/02/22 07:11 AM (2 years, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
shr00mFer said: Spawned from jars to substrate (horse manure pellets, coir, verm, gypsum) 10 days ago. Stll smell like shit, I am to throw it away or pans are slow on this substrate?
Is it required to use manure when growing pans? I hate to work with it (probably am not kinky enough:))
I know what I did wrong. Has three jars and, after shaking, only two of them recolonized well. The third one didnt smell bad though, so I mixed all together (rpokie mistake).
Sounds like you already know your answer but the bottom line is that, whether its your jars or your sub, if you don't see full colonization of your sub by 5 days, 7 at most, something is likely wrong. Most of my trays colonize in 3-4 days.
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shr00mFer
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Hindsight]
#27603366 - 01/02/22 08:15 AM (2 years, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
Hindsight said:
Quote:
shr00mFer said: Spawned from jars to substrate (horse manure pellets, coir, verm, gypsum) 10 days ago. Stll smell like shit, I am to throw it away or pans are slow on this substrate?
Is it required to use manure when growing pans? I hate to work with it (probably am not kinky enough:))
I know what I did wrong. Has three jars and, after shaking, only two of them recolonized well. The third one didnt smell bad though, so I mixed all together (rpokie mistake).
Sounds like you already know your answer but the bottom line is that, whether its your jars or your sub, if you don't see full colonization of your sub by 5 days, 7 at most, something is likely wrong. Most of my trays colonize in 3-4 days.
Didnt make tray, I used monotub but kept substrate depth on 2 inches at most. Are there advantages of using trays with pans?
All surface colonized in 3-4 days? I have experience with cubes, they all need 2-3 weeks until all surface is colonized (I close all the holes, have GE through loose lid). Even now I have KSSS, PE and LPEU going for a week, they are not near full colonization (1:2 spawn ratio, coir/verm substrate).
Do pans need manure, can they grow on coir/verm too?
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Hindsight
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: shr00mFer]
#27603418 - 01/02/22 08:52 AM (2 years, 27 days ago) |
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Trays are mostly when using a tent or a JCM fruiting chamber, partly because there is no need for the bulk of a tub in these setups, and also partly because you want a lot of FAE and the high-sides of any type of tote, even a shoebox, traps co2 at your growing surface. But if you are running a monotub then it doesn't apply.
Yes, around 14 days to full colonization is about right for cubes in my experience. Some finish closer to 7-9 days, but anything inside of 14 days is acceptable. Pans are MUCH faster than cubes when it comes to substrate colonization. It's pretty wild the first time you see it. Day one, nothing much happens. Day two you see about 20 nickel-sized cotton balls scattered across the surface of your sub. End of day 3 the entire top surface of your sub is covered. It can take longer than 3 days but I'd say 3-5 is average for me assuming I got everything right (good culture, proper grain spawn, proper substrate mix and hydration, and proper humidity levels and airflow).
As best I can recall, I haven't seen any tub or tray grows that show nice, big, normally developed fruits with a full canopy using substrates without manure. But I've only been growing pans for 5 or 6 months so far. Just looking at VL's last post, it doesn't seem he is using any manure in his cakes and he is getting nice fruits. Though he is using straw which has more nutrients than coir.
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Hindsight
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Hindsight]
#27603481 - 01/02/22 09:28 AM (2 years, 27 days ago) |
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Little update on some pan grows.....
So the manure/coir test is not turning out as well as I had hoped. Goods: Pins appeared just 2-3 days into the tent which is very fast for me Cons: I have noticed when pans are finished growing or very close, they tend to turn a bit blue - so you can see here that while the shape of these fruits would suggest they have another 2-4 days before reaching full size and maturity, their color suggests they are done. Canopy is meh. It was looking like it was going to be really full but then stopped before that happened, mostly due to caps not really opening up and getting large.
Question RE the bluing color: Do you notice this too in your grows and if so, do you make the same observation that it indicated full maturity, or do you feel it's something else, like improper conditions? I did make a dumb move of changing up my tent cycle mid-fruiting on these. I adjust the cycles all the time, but I made a big change in that I had my little 80mm fan in my fogger running 100% of the time (whether fogger was on or off) - the idea being it would keep the air inside the tent moving and fresh and increase the amount of evaporation - but I changed it to where it only runs during fogging. My cycles are 5 mins of fog, 2 mins of venting, 8 mins of resting. A do wonder if this resulted in the stunted growth. I should have left it alone and not introduce too many variables.
Coir/Manure on the right, Straw/Manure on the left:


Another pair of trays - same as above, straw/manure on left, coir/manure on right:

BVI clone tray coming in hot on straw/manure. Pinset might be too dense to develop a nice canopy but let's see what happens - they are still growing rapidly:

Huasteca clone trays on straw/manure looking sad:
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Adas
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Hindsight] 1
#27603571 - 01/02/22 10:22 AM (2 years, 27 days ago) |
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Some of them look nice and chonky! Blueing is definitely not a sign of ripeness, it's something environmental, I bet the cycle change has something to do with it.
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Hindsight
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Adas]
#27603616 - 01/02/22 10:54 AM (2 years, 27 days ago) |
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Thanks Adas - my brain always wants to try so many things that I abandon the scientific process and make too many changes at once.
Really wondering what the best, most optimal cycles are, and how much FAE they really need. I feel like having constant fresh air being blown in (even by a small fan) shouldnt be required for pans to be happy. Surely in a repeating 15 minute cycle, 5 mins of air exchange (3 during fog and 2 during exhaust venting) followed by 10 mins of rest should be adequate. Maybe it is and the fruits were just shocked by the change. I’m going to keep the cycles constant for now.
Also looking forward to hearing about JOC’s new optimized cycles.
I have another substrate experiment I’ll post today once I finish it.
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Adas
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Hindsight] 1
#27603622 - 01/02/22 11:01 AM (2 years, 27 days ago) |
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No worries dude, I do the exact same thing. I don't think they need a lot of FAE, I'd just exchange all of the air in the tub and then shut the fan off, and let it sit for 15 mins. But I don't have such setup myself so I can't test it, I'm just guessing.
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Hindsight
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Adas] 1
#27603811 - 01/02/22 01:29 PM (2 years, 27 days ago) |
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Yeah thinking the same thing - my current cycle should be enough: Fogger fan only comes on during fog cycles, fog cycle is around 4 mins, vent cycle is 1 minute, then a 9 minute resting period.
So here is the new test I was talking about. I've taken one jar of spawn and divided it between two mini trays: Tray1: 1qt coir, 1/2pt manure, 1/2pt straw pellets Tray2: 1.5qt coir, 1/2pt manure

The coir/manure formula is the same I used in my last test (which is still growing and underway). I want to see what changes added the straw pellets make. Like last time, both substrates were pasteurized at 163F for 12 hours in the InstaPot. I only aged them 1 day though. Wanted to age longer but didn't want to wait 5 days and the jars were ready now. I know letting jars sit fully consolidated produces poor results.
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Baba Yaga
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Hindsight]
#27603908 - 01/02/22 02:16 PM (2 years, 26 days ago) |
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Nice Hindsight, it's always very interesting to watch others experimenting. +1 to finding it hard to be disciplined and not trying to fiddle around too much with the setup lol.
My stipes often turn a bit blue but not much and I judge end of growth by the way the caps look. I would have thought that those fruits could go further but weird things are happening all the time.
I'm thinking about concentrating more on the fruiting at spawn method as I suspect to get more consistent results with it. Got 6 tubs fruiting at the moment and 10 jars colonizing for my final run.
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Hindsight
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Baba Yaga]
#27603920 - 01/02/22 02:21 PM (2 years, 26 days ago) |
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Thanks Baba, yeah the caps on these definitely suggest they have days to go but they seem stalled. It’s taken them like a week or more I think, to get to this state from pin formation which is as long time. I’m going to let them ride until they start looking really ugly in hopes that they end up fully maturing. I’ll keep everyone posted on the results of all the substrate tests. I’m hopeful on the straw pellets but a bit skeptical of them because they are more green like hay instead of light golden yellow like straw. I worry they use dried green hay to make the pellets which could mean they are prone to contamination.
Fruiting at spawn…. Do you mean not letting the tub consolidate for some time before opening your vents? I’ve been testing consolidation times in my setup too but I haven’t noticed much of a difference- though I haven’t done any side by side tests yet. I’ll get to that soon.
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Baba Yaga
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Hindsight] 3
#27604024 - 01/02/22 03:15 PM (2 years, 26 days ago) |
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I did this twice now and what I do is mixing spawn+sub like normal but with a bit less substrate which I use to add a thicker top layer ending up with 1.5" main bulk sub and 0.5" top layer. I then cover the bottom holes with a double layer of micropore tape and tape up half of each top hole with masking tape and again a double layer of MP tape to cover the remaining opening.
So they are getting a fair bit of FAE that way while colonizing. The surface fully colonizes still, I had to mist one tub once to replenish evaporation close to the bottom holes but just a tad. When ready, it got cased as normal and removed all tape at the bottom and one layer of MP at the top (and removed the second strip towards the end of growth).
These are the results.
H-manure/Compost/Coir 25/25/50 (clone)

Compost/Coir 50/50 (MS)

Fruits were less but thicker and ended up having the same yield. It seems that this way the results are better as the tubs didn't get much side pins.
Now I have to find out if that is actually consistently repeatable.
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Hindsight
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Baba Yaga] 1
#27604072 - 01/02/22 03:40 PM (2 years, 26 days ago) |
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Very nice. I still can't believe you get those results in a tub, and without manure in some grows.
As for consistently repeatable, that made me laugh when I read it. I've yet to consistently repeat nearly anything with pans!
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Baba Yaga
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Hindsight] 3
#27604138 - 01/02/22 04:36 PM (2 years, 26 days ago) |
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If I stick to what I'm doing at the moment then maybe 30% of the tubes turn out great, 30% are good/OK, 30% not so great and 10% do utterly suck.
As you said, "In it for the challange" and so many knobs to turn 
FYI: according to the writing on the bag the compost I used above has chicken manure added to it so non of this is without manure. Coir only is definitely not doing great in general but can be OK sometimes. Would be cool to figure out how much manure is actually needed to get something decent.
Edited by Baba Yaga (01/02/22 04:44 PM)
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rockyfungus
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Baba Yaga] 1
#27604412 - 01/02/22 08:08 PM (2 years, 26 days ago) |
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I keep triching out a day or two after casing. Need to follow a recipe instead of doing my thing that's 33% success for pans. Which is not satisfactory for me.
 Re-streaked some wild coast and now some Burnell's. Worked with a local buddy who's in a different internet circles, blew his mind with a qtip to agar.
 Shared my lab as his hood died and was odd watching a true Type A work. I'm willy-nilly care free, rule breaking. We learned a lot from each other and I loosened him up!
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Mycoplex
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: rockyfungus]
#27604504 - 01/02/22 09:53 PM (2 years, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
rockyfungus said: I keep triching out a day or two after casing. Need to follow a recipe instead of doing my thing that's 33% success for pans. Which is not satisfactory for me.
 Re-streaked some wild coast and now some Burnell's. Worked with a local buddy who's in a different internet circles, blew his mind with a qtip to agar.
 Shared my lab as his hood died and was odd watching a true Type A work. I'm willy-nilly care free, rule breaking. We learned a lot from each other and I loosened him up!
Are you sterilizing your casing, or pasteurizing it?
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rockyfungus
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Mycoplex]
#27604720 - 01/03/22 06:05 AM (2 years, 26 days ago) |
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I used to only cold lime pasteurize. Lately that's not working great so I did traditional heat pasteurization.
I mix by hand from years of baking. I believe forgetting lime and gypsum is what's wrecking me. I'll just follow a classic 50:50 case again. I tend to do things once and BS it from there.
I need to get this better as I'm about case Semps and they're a wee bit slower then pans
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Hindsight
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: rockyfungus]
#27604729 - 01/03/22 06:21 AM (2 years, 26 days ago) |
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I’ve had great luck avoiding contams by just mixing 6g of hydrated lime into one gallon of distilled water, then using that to hydrate a 50/50 mix of verm/peat. I load that into a big ziplock bag and pasteurize it overnight in an instapot set to keep warm mode. Never had trich on any of my pan grows when using this method. Also ensuring I mix things only in containers and using tools that have never touched anything containing nutrients (like grains or food).
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