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Jakeoncid419
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Hindsight] 5
#27583637 - 12/16/21 11:42 AM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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It took me a while to figure it out but grain fed cattle manure dose not work anywhere near as well as grass fed, then having it light and fluffy is also super important
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Mycoplex
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Jakeoncid419]
#27583644 - 12/16/21 11:49 AM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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I'm currently using store-bought steer/cattle manure even though it seems less popular than horse manure. The bagged manure I am working with is very dry, fluffy, and has the consistency almost like soil. Like some of the photos that Jake posted above.
This type of manure also does not have any "smell" really other than an earthy smell (again similar to soil). When pasteurized or sterilized, it does seem to release a bit more of a "poo" smell but it dissipates within a day or so. This was one of the things that surprised me about aged manure: it's more like soil or earth in consistency than it is like what some might expect when imagining manure.
Edited by Mycoplex (12/16/21 11:57 AM)
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Hindsight
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Jakeoncid419]
#27583654 - 12/16/21 12:01 PM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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Cattle manure eh? I read a while back someone - not sure who - maybe either you or BOD, was saying cattle manure is better than horse manure for pans but both will obviously work. I may have to try to shift to cattle manure. Any idea how long it is aged and or composted before you get it and do you age/compost it even more after?
@mycoplex there is a brand of that sold in big box home stores called Black Kow. Many have used it here with mixed success. I've had success with it outdoors with cubes, but not so much indoors. It's content is highly variable.
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Mycoplex
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Hindsight]
#27583704 - 12/16/21 01:01 PM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Hindsight said: Cattle manure eh? I read a while back someone - not sure who - maybe either you or BOD, was saying cattle manure is better than horse manure for pans but both will obviously work. I may have to try to shift to cattle manure. Any idea how long it is aged and or composted before you get it and do you age/compost it even more after?
@mycoplex there is a brand of that sold in big box home stores called Black Kow. Many have used it here with mixed success. I've had success with it outdoors with cubes, but not so much indoors. It's content is highly variable.
I think another possible factor is what the cattle themselves eat (grain vs grass) which can make a difference like Jake said. I'm personally not too sure how to go about confirming this for store-bought stuff, but the Black Kow brand you mentioned is for sure one I've seen come up on this forum quite a bit and it should work. It seems to be a "richer" version of the one I am using though, to me this Black Kow brand almost seems like cow manure on steroids or something.
The one I am using is about $1.50 to $3.00 for a giant bag (50 lbs or so) which is another reason I really like it so far: It's accessible, cheap, and helps coco coir go longer since I don't have to use as much of it as a straight-coir grow.
I've been using this cattle manure so far for MacMerdin Pan Cakes, and even though I am having issues actually fruiting them they did colonize just fine.
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Mr Piggy
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Mycoplex] 3
#27583753 - 12/16/21 01:54 PM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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If you're buying store bought it's almost 100% gonna be grain fed from lots. Manure tends to get left out in fields that are rotated for grazing, helps with soil quality.
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Jakeoncid419
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Mr Piggy] 2
#27583798 - 12/16/21 02:42 PM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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Have y’all seen my pre made pan sub
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Hindsight
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Jakeoncid419]
#27583826 - 12/16/21 03:04 PM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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Yeah JOC I plan to try it out and see if it changes my results significantly. It would be a good tool to help me narrow down where some of my inconsistent results are coming from.
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EnDelfisE
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Hindsight]
#27584438 - 12/17/21 05:15 AM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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This is my first try for a Pan lc, it colonized very fast from a little agar wedge in grain water mix , it looks clean very dense and it started forming foam on top pretty fast is this a good sign you believe ?
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gt40
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: EnDelfisE]
#27584465 - 12/17/21 06:03 AM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
EnDelfisE said: This is my first try for a Pan lc, it colonized very fast from a little agar wedge in grain water mix , it looks clean very dense and it started forming foam on top pretty fast is this a good sign you believe ?

I believe it's okay
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ruawakeyet


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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: EnDelfisE] 1
#27584483 - 12/17/21 06:32 AM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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The fact that it's forming foam at the top tells me it's bad. Sounds more like fermentation, but the only way to know for sure is to go ahead and put some of it on agar.
Please keep us posted either way!
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Hindsight
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: ruawakeyet] 1
#27584501 - 12/17/21 06:51 AM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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You sure that's foam and not mycelium? Foam would be bad. Mycelium would be good. I use a magnetic stir bar to stir the culture daily and prevent growth on the surface. That surface growth really just gets in the way of things for me.
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moonwatcher


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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: gt40] 1
#27584503 - 12/17/21 06:53 AM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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Has anyone thought about or researched why Pans need manure in the substrate in order to fruit? Cubes are also dung-loving, but fruit on grain with no issues. Seems like the manure requirement of pans is a widely accepted fact, but I see no further discussion on why that is. There seems to be a few coir-only grows, but obviously if that worked reliably people wouldn't bother with manure.
What do you guys think about the following hypotheses:
- Pan mycelium just can't penetrate grains well and requires a more finely powdered substrate - probably not true, because otherwise old school BRF cakes would work great.
- Soluble amino acids are required in a non-protein bound form. Malt extract contains plenty of those and I think manure is high in glutamic acid.
- Ammonium or nitrate nitrogen is required - grains lack those, as do all non-composted organic materials. Manure contains lots of both, which is why its used as a plant fertilizer. If that's the case a simple plant fertilizer added to the coir hydration water may work very well as a manure replacement. Fungi can definitely use ammonium as well as nitrate as an N source.
- A high mass of dead bacterial cells is used by the mycelium as food, or some of the cellular contents of dead bacteria present in poo (b. subtilis maybe) are used as a fruiting signal. In which case maybe a simple yeast packet with its trillions of dead yeast cells added to coir and sterilized may work great. From what I've read, even a small amount of poo (10%) added to grain spawn is enough for fruiting, which makes me think its some sort of a 'signal' and not so much a 'nutrient source' type of thing.
- Something about lignin/cellulose which I'm not sure about yet.
BTW a week ago I posted that I'm not getting pan germination on agar - as it turned out, every plate out of almost 30 germinated around the 10th day mark, so I'm at the producing grain spawn stage, which got me interested in the whole manure requirement of pans. I don't seem to have easy access to manure right now, so I'll do a few experiments. Seems like potting soil/compost may also work well. And yes, I do realize that experimenting is best done only after getting a few successes with a proven tek.
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Hindsight
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: moonwatcher]
#27584539 - 12/17/21 07:41 AM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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I've never read anything that gets that scientific about it. I would like to, but I haven't seen it. The best pan growers would probably say, "Why bother with all that when mixing up some manure and straw is cheap, easy, and works well" and they are having outstanding flushes, tray after tray, doing it. If it aint broke, don't fix it. That's all well and good if you are having that kind of success but many people (including myself) struggle between having random amazing grows, mixed in with unexplainable failures. Having a better understanding of exactly what is going on would help diagnose problems and potentially lead to more fool-proof methods of growing pans - easier to source materials for everyone, lower contamination rate, larger yields, better consistency, etc etc. My success rate with pans is probably 20%. I've had some incredible trays but the majority fail miserably or simply produce tiny yields and only one flush. It's frustrating because the outcome appears to be more luck-based for me than it is dependent on what I do and what changes I make. So my strategy is to keep slowly making changes until I hopefully stumble on some that actually make a difference. For me, lately, that has been changing my spawn jar lids and the way I incubate them, and trying some different substrate mixes (such as coir+manure instead of straw+manure).
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Adas
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: moonwatcher]
#27584577 - 12/17/21 08:23 AM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
moonwatcher said: Has anyone thought about or researched why Pans need manure in the substrate in order to fruit? Cubes are also dung-loving, but fruit on grain with no issues. Seems like the manure requirement of pans is a widely accepted fact, but I see no further discussion on why that is. There seems to be a few coir-only grows, but obviously if that worked reliably people wouldn't bother with manure.
What do you guys think about the following hypotheses:
- Pan mycelium just can't penetrate grains well and requires a more finely powdered substrate - probably not true, because otherwise old school BRF cakes would work great.
- Soluble amino acids are required in a non-protein bound form. Malt extract contains plenty of those and I think manure is high in glutamic acid.
- Ammonium or nitrate nitrogen is required - grains lack those, as do all non-composted organic materials. Manure contains lots of both, which is why its used as a plant fertilizer. If that's the case a simple plant fertilizer added to the coir hydration water may work very well as a manure replacement. Fungi can definitely use ammonium as well as nitrate as an N source.
- A high mass of dead bacterial cells is used by the mycelium as food, or some of the cellular contents of dead bacteria present in poo (b. subtilis maybe) are used as a fruiting signal. In which case maybe a simple yeast packet with its trillions of dead yeast cells added to coir and sterilized may work great. From what I've read, even a small amount of poo (10%) added to grain spawn is enough for fruiting, which makes me think its some sort of a 'signal' and not so much a 'nutrient source' type of thing.
- Something about lignin/cellulose which I'm not sure about yet.
BTW a week ago I posted that I'm not getting pan germination on agar - as it turned out, every plate out of almost 30 germinated around the 10th day mark, so I'm at the producing grain spawn stage, which got me interested in the whole manure requirement of pans. I don't seem to have easy access to manure right now, so I'll do a few experiments. Seems like potting soil/compost may also work well. And yes, I do realize that experimenting is best done only after getting a few successes with a proven tek.
These are interesting hypotheses. Number 1 is certainly out of question. About 2 I'm not actually sure. Doesn't seem right that manure would contain much if any free amino acids. Number 3 is very possible, 4 maybe, 5 maybe.
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MandalaMind
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Adas]
#27584671 - 12/17/21 09:52 AM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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Weird thing, past days i think the day before yesterday i decided to stop the jcm and maybe move the trays into mini-monos, i stoped the air pumps and let it be for 24h or so, well yesterday i found the best fruits of the grow, one had a cap open nice, wide and wavy, it seemed to be the tallest too, another mushroom was looking kinda good. Also those 2 mushrooms are the only ones that i managed to print.
How did they grow better with the chamber not working is beyond me, kinda counterintuitive, i've put them into mini-monos i'll see how they go.
Also my aquarium heater broke, like the glass shattered and it broke, any idea why that happened? i don't find a good reason i didn't change water temp i didn't move the thing the water was covering the heater so idk, also idk when it actually happen all i know is that i found it like that when i wanted to clean it.
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Hindsight
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: MandalaMind]
#27584683 - 12/17/21 10:03 AM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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My guess would be that turning the JCM off lowered the humidity enough to where you were getting much more evaporation. This is what we aim to do in the tents by cycling the humidity between humid and dry. But it could have also been just luck of the draw and those monos would have produced the same fruit regardless.
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MandalaMind
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Hindsight]
#27584689 - 12/17/21 10:11 AM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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Yeah i thought exactly that, i may be able to draw a conclusion if they manage to fruit in the monos as there will be less FAE and probably less humidity than what the jcm can do.
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Hindsight
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: MandalaMind]
#27584724 - 12/17/21 10:38 AM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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Speaking of tents, how are those of you with tents cleaning the black algae type growth that grows in your intake ducting? I have a UV sterilizer in my tub which helps keep the tub free of that black gunk, but it really seems there is no way to really clean it from the ducting and you just need to replace the ducting every month or two instead. Also, anyone know exactly what that black gunk is and how much, if any, threat it poses to the trays in the tent?
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Adas
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Hindsight] 1
#27584754 - 12/17/21 10:59 AM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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Black gunk? That sounds like Pseudomonas. Doesn't pose much, if any harm to the fungus (unless it's P. tolasii, aka bacterial blotch).
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Jakeoncid419
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Adas] 1
#27584940 - 12/17/21 01:45 PM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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I replace every 6-8 months
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