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OfflineRaxo
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: ForestFunGuyGal] * 3
    #27495007 - 10/06/21 03:26 PM (2 years, 3 months ago)


First go at Pans, so I'm a little unsure about harvest time. Most photos I see people have let the caps flatten out more before harvest. These are Estero, and I saw the first pins on the good tray about 5 days ago, with the laggard about 4 days ago.

How much longer do you think I should wait, and is the consensus that the caps should be flattened before they get the knife? What other indicators should I be looking for? I always used the veils for Cubes.

Thanks Shroomery Crew!


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OfflineHindsight
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Raxo]
    #27495017 - 10/06/21 03:34 PM (2 years, 3 months ago)

Nice first grow. I've asked the same question and after getting some responses and letting some mushrooms go until they rot so I could see the signs and indications to look for, what I've found is that the stems start to darken substantially. That's when I cut them down. It may vary by genetics though.


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InvisibleRumblestrip


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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Raxo] * 1
    #27495121 - 10/06/21 04:57 PM (2 years, 3 months ago)

Nice flush!
Caps often don't flatten out. They're ready when you start seeing spores, which will probably be tomorrow for you depending on your temps.


Edited by Rumblestrip (10/06/21 05:30 PM)


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OfflineRaxo
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Rumblestrip]
    #27495323 - 10/06/21 08:12 PM (2 years, 3 months ago)

Awesome...thanks for the info!


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InvisibleL0rdk4in
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Raxo]
    #27495443 - 10/06/21 11:06 PM (2 years, 3 months ago)

I posted a few days ago about my first attempt to fruit pans. I think I finally got my first pins on my most recent tray but not my 3 older trays seem to be doing nothing. They are 5 days older and currently on day 8 in the chamber with no fruits. I will probably toss them this weekend if nothing happens. The few pins I have are so tiny and spread out. Any guidance on what I am doing wrong or am I on the right track?

First 2 pictures are the same tray. Last two are tray that don't seem to be doing anything



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InvisibleBaba Yaga
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: L0rdk4in]
    #27495477 - 10/06/21 11:57 PM (2 years, 3 months ago)

Are the pins you are talking about the ones in the first two pix?

Sorry to say that they are not pan pins but probably some coprinus species.

That probably is what is letting your trays not perform.

Those pins could come from the manure, have you pasteurized it?

What was it that you did to get to this stage?




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OfflineV.L
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Baba Yaga] * 1
    #27495534 - 10/07/21 01:21 AM (2 years, 3 months ago)

Raxo & Aspergilus contrats for your nice first grows and welcome in the fascinating Pan family!!


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InvisibleGlitchInSpace
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Raxo]
    #27495666 - 10/07/21 06:17 AM (2 years, 3 months ago)

nice pin set and thick clusters you have there. my esteros performed really well but i had tiny little midgets.


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InvisibleL0rdk4in
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Baba Yaga]
    #27495689 - 10/07/21 07:15 AM (2 years, 3 months ago)

Damn. I though that looked odd. I'll go ahead and toss them and start over. Yea I pasteurized them. I did 65% straw and 35% manure with some verm. Loaded into a jar and put in a crock pot. Until it got to 145. Then let it set for an hour.


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OfflineHindsight
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: L0rdk4in]
    #27495709 - 10/07/21 07:43 AM (2 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

L0rdk4in said:
Damn. I though that looked odd. I'll go ahead and toss them and start over. Yea I pasteurized them. I did 65% straw and 35% manure with some verm. Loaded into a jar and put in a crock pot. Until it got to 145. Then let it set for an hour.




Try going longer next time. JOC's tek calls for using an instapot overnight (12 hours or so) which holds a 163 temp. I assume you could do the same in a crock-pot on the "keep warm" setting. I have read a lot of pasteurization teks and they all vary in terms of what they think is the ideal temp. Values range from 140 to 170, and durations from 1 to 12 hours. Many teks say no more than 2 hours, and the reason given is that supposedly it kills too many beneficial microbes. But I followed JOC's tek in the instapot for 12 hours at 163 and let it age for like 5 or 7 days and when I opened it, it STUNK. That odor is from bacteria, so the 163F for 12 hours is definitely not killing them all off. And the trays I made with that substrate are fruiting as we speak, so it does work.



Question for all of you - Does this look like enough growth for 5 days? This was from an agar wedge on 10/1 of the Alabama variety:




I also find it interesting that pan mycelium grows extremely slowly in all of my jars, regardless of grain or variety. Yet when spawned to manure/straw substrate, the colonization is extremely rapid. I've had jars take a month to reach 100% consolidation, yet my substrate will fully colonize in like 5 days. So it got me thinking, what about adding a half cup or a cup of dried manure to the boiling water when prepping grain? I'm guessing it would make the jars more prone to contamination, but I feel like it might speed things up dramatically. The pan experts here might say you don't need it because their jars colonize rapidly without it, but I'm just not getting the same results for some reason so I'm trying to come up with ideas.


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Invisiblenosf3r4tu


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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Hindsight] * 1
    #27495796 - 10/07/21 09:09 AM (2 years, 3 months ago)

That's a good ideea. But you could also use LC to inoculate and give it a proper shake.


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OfflineForestFunGuyGal
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: nosf3r4tu] * 1
    #27495852 - 10/07/21 10:03 AM (2 years, 3 months ago)

I took flak last time I said this, but with fresh spores it takes me just over a month for a container mostly full of manure and straw bigger than yours to colonize. No shake. I don't bother with spawning.

Could be what's being colonized, could also be other factors like airflow or water content.


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OfflineJakeoncid419
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Hindsight]
    #27495878 - 10/07/21 10:30 AM (2 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Hindsight said:
Quote:

L0rdk4in said:
Damn. I though that looked odd. I'll go ahead and toss them and start over. Yea I pasteurized them. I did 65% straw and 35% manure with some verm. Loaded into a jar and put in a crock pot. Until it got to 145. Then let it set for an hour.




Try going longer next time. JOC's tek calls for using an instapot overnight (12 hours or so) which holds a 163 temp. I assume you could do the same in a crock-pot on the "keep warm" setting. I have read a lot of pasteurization teks and they all vary in terms of what they think is the ideal temp. Values range from 140 to 170, and durations from 1 to 12 hours. Many teks say no more than 2 hours, and the reason given is that supposedly it kills too many beneficial microbes. But I followed JOC's tek in the instapot for 12 hours at 163 and let it age for like 5 or 7 days and when I opened it, it STUNK. That odor is from bacteria, so the 163F for 12 hours is definitely not killing them all off. And the trays I made with that substrate are fruiting as we speak, so it does work.
I found the key to pan grain is getting the exact right moisture contact there is a very small window of their optimal hydration I fine-tune this by increasing or decreasing the amount of rye berries I cut into my millet the rye berries act as little hydration packets That provide moisture without promoting bacterial growth which is what happens if your grain has too much surface moisture or internal moisture if I were to run all robberies for example and fully hydrate them. The way I do it now is I cut in 75% white millet 25% rye berries and cold soak overnight in a bucket I then pour the bucket into my strain bag and rinse with the hose then I pour that into a large pot (old pressure cooker bottom) And slowly bring to a simmer you don’t want or roaring boil and as soon as you start to see it start to boil shut it off. You don’t want to cook the grain but he shocking it keeps the green from germinating during the drying process. While it’s still hot I pour it back into my strain bag and hang the bag up for about 12 hours then I spread it out on this big tray I have and if it still has the excess surface moisture by spread it around and let it dry out a little more you don’t want it fully dry but you want it pretty close. A good way to test it is to rub your hand through it if a whole bunch of green sticks to your hand then it’s still too wet on the surface. Then I load my jars and pressure cook


Question for all of you - Does this look like enough growth for 5 days? This was from an agar wedge on 10/1 of the Alabama variety:




I also find it interesting that pan mycelium grows extremely slowly in all of my jars, regardless of grain or variety. Yet when spawned to manure/straw substrate, the colonization is extremely rapid. I've had jars take a month to reach 100% consolidation, yet my substrate will fully colonize in like 5 days. So it got me thinking, what about adding a half cup or a cup of dried manure to the boiling water when prepping grain? I'm guessing it would make the jars more prone to contamination, but I feel like it might speed things up dramatically. The pan experts here might say you don't need it because their jars colonize rapidly without it, but I'm just not getting the same results for some reason so I'm trying to come up with ideas.




--------------------
Natural omt/detox
online  pant cult classes available last Saturday of every month go to buymeacoffee.com/jakeoncid to sign up (1 on 1 consultations also available
JOC PAN TEK
CORDYCEPS MILITARIS

EXOTICS
[


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OfflineJakeoncid419
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Hindsight] * 1
    #27495880 - 10/07/21 10:32 AM (2 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Hindsight said:
Quote:

L0rdk4in said:
Damn. I though that looked odd. I'll go ahead and toss them and start over. Yea I pasteurized them. I did 65% straw and 35% manure with some verm. Loaded into a jar and put in a crock pot. Until it got to 145. Then let it set for an hour.




Try going longer next time. JOC's tek calls for using an instapot overnight (12 hours or so) which holds a 163 temp. I assume you could do the same in a crock-pot on the "keep warm" setting. I have read a lot of pasteurization teks and they all vary in terms of what they think is the ideal temp. Values range from 140 to 170, and durations from 1 to 12 hours. Many teks say no more than 2 hours, and the reason given is that supposedly it kills too many beneficial microbes. But I followed JOC's tek in the instapot for 12 hours at 163 and let it age for like 5 or 7 days and when I opened it, it STUNK. That odor is from bacteria, so the 163F for 12 hours is definitely not killing them all off. And the trays I made with that substrate are fruiting as we speak, so it does work.


Question for all of you - Does this look like enough growth for 5 days? This was from an agar wedge on 10/1 of the Alabama variety:




I also find it interesting that pan mycelium grows extremely slowly in all of my jars, regardless of grain or variety. Yet when spawned to manure/straw substrate, the colonization is extremely rapid. I've had jars take a month to reach 100% consolidation, yet my substrate will fully colonize in like 5 days. So it got me thinking, what about adding a half cup or a cup of dried manure to the boiling water when prepping grain? I'm guessing it would make the jars more prone to contamination, but I feel like it might speed things up dramatically. The pan experts here might say you don't need it because their jars colonize rapidly without it, but I'm just not getting the same results for some reason so I'm trying to come up with ideas.




I found the key to pan grain is getting the exact right moisture contact there is a very small window of their optimal hydration I fine-tune this by increasing or decreasing the amount of rye berries I cut into my millet the rye berries act as little hydration packets That provide moisture without promoting bacterial growth which is what happens if your grain has too much surface moisture or internal moisture if I were to run all robberies for example and fully hydrate them. The way I do it now is I cut in 75% white millet 25% rye berries and cold soak overnight in a bucket I then pour the bucket into my strain bag and rinse with the hose then I pour that into a large pot (old pressure cooker bottom) And slowly bring to a simmer you don’t want or roaring boil and as soon as you start to see it start to boil shut it off. You don’t want to cook the grain but he shocking it keeps the green from germinating during the drying process. While it’s still hot I pour it back into my strain bag and hang the bag up for about 12 hours then I spread it out on this big tray I have and if it still has the excess surface moisture by spread it around and let it dry out a little more you don’t want it fully dry but you want it pretty close. A good way to test it is to rub your hand through it if a whole bunch of grain sticks to your hand then it’s still too wet on the surface. Then I load my jars and pressure cook


--------------------
Natural omt/detox
online  pant cult classes available last Saturday of every month go to buymeacoffee.com/jakeoncid to sign up (1 on 1 consultations also available
JOC PAN TEK
CORDYCEPS MILITARIS

EXOTICS
[


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Offlinemoonwatcher
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: ForestFunGuyGal]
    #27495887 - 10/07/21 10:37 AM (2 years, 3 months ago)

Hey everyone, I've been trying to do something with a Pan Cyan Jamaica print I have, which was very faint and small.

It's been weird. I spent a month inoculating cornflour or agar plates with the spores and every time I'd get contam-looking growth and throw away the plate, wash the jars and start all over. Well, at some point I kept a few jars and to my surprise what I was sure was mold never sporulated, thickened up and developed into what to me looks more like myc.

The two yellow-ish plates are cornflour germination plates (hurt multiple times by transfers, I took wedges and myc scrapings more than 10 times from each) and the agar plate is a transfer from 3 days ago which as you can see is very thin growth, but is thickening up day by day.

The first two have been growing for like a week and they look more and more like myc - on one of the pics the center looks darker, but that's a shadow - all of the growth is perfectly white. But I'm still not confident this is not some sort of strange mold? No smell either, I even collected some myc with a loop and crushed it between my fingers to smell it - no smell at all, but smelling the whole plate I do kinda get the almondy smell people talk about, but I could be imagining things at this point.

Any chance this is still some sort of mold or weird monokaryotic myc that will not fruit (due to the faint print used and too little viable spores?)





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Invisiblecoversall
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: moonwatcher]
    #27495895 - 10/07/21 10:44 AM (2 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

moonwatcher said:
Hey everyone, I've been trying to do something with a Pan Cyan Jamaica print I have, which was very faint and small.

It's been weird. I spent a month inoculating cornflour or agar plates with the spores and every time I'd get contam-looking growth and throw away the plate, wash the jars and start all over. Well, at some point I kept a few jars and to my surprise what I was sure was mold never sporulated, thickened up and developed into what to me looks more like myc.

The two yellow-ish plates are cornflour germination plates (hurt multiple times by transfers, I took wedges and myc scrapings more than 10 times from each) and the agar plate is a transfer from 3 days ago which as you can see is very thin growth, but is thickening up day by day.

The first two have been growing for like a week and they look more and more like myc - on one of the pics the center looks darker, but that's a shadow - all of the growth is perfectly white. But I'm still not confident this is not some sort of strange mold? No smell either, I even collected some myc with a loop and crushed it between my fingers to smell it - no smell at all, but smelling the whole plate I do kinda get the almondy smell people talk about, but I could be imagining things at this point.

Any chance this is still some sort of mold or weird monokaryotic myc that will not fruit (due to the faint print used and too little viable spores?)








Welcome! Wild first post!

That cornflour stuff looks nasty to work with. What is the reason for that over plain LME agar or something?


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Offlinemoonwatcher
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: coversall]
    #27495917 - 10/07/21 11:01 AM (2 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:



Welcome! Wild first post!

That cornflour stuff looks nasty to work with. What is the reason for that over plain LME agar or something?




Haha. Thanks for the welcome, I actually had an account here a long time ago but couldn't recover it. I've been working with cubes for a long time and I like cornflour plates for a few reasons I'll explain. I make them with 3-4g flour + 10ml water and they solidify in the pressure cooker. Unlike agar they quickly re-absorb any moisture/condensation on the surface, which prevents contam. Not fully and mold is still an issue, but bacterial contams are greatly reduced even when working outside of a SAB. Even if a few bacteria get in, they can't swarm/move around on the solid surface, so they are tightly confined to a single spot and get taken over by the myc without even noticing anything.

Agar though has been a bit more tricky for me, a thin layer of water on top enables any bacteria to move around and take over the whole thing which has happened many of the times I've used a syringe instead of a print. The bacillus spp double in around 20 minutes and with presence of surface water move at a few inches an hour using their flagella, so by the time the agar reabsorbs the moisture, if a syringe has bacteria in it, it will be everywhere a lot of the time.

Yes, obviously, a good sterile technique, streaking, clean spores and petri stacking solves that, but for cubes flour plates have still been working nicely for me. Disadvantage is obviously too nutrient-rich mixture and not as nice looking surface. The first syringe I purchased some time ago had some bacteria in it and like all of the 20 agar plates I used it on were quickly contamed with bacteria spreading around everywhere within 24h. I was about to throw it away, but at some point I inoculated a brown rice jar with it and it colonized fully with no sign of contamination. That's when I read about bacterial swarming (which is an actual term in microbiology) and the importance of surface water layer and started using flour plates with no contam problems even with syringes. I've no experience with using those plates for other species besides cubes and they may very well turn out to have many other problems as well. The starch content is obviously high, but so are all grains.

Anyway, sorry I didn't mean to go too off-topic for this thread :smile:


Edited by moonwatcher (10/07/21 11:22 AM)


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OfflineHindsight
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: nosf3r4tu]
    #27495964 - 10/07/21 11:35 AM (2 years, 3 months ago)

Thanks for that JOC, very helpful! I will try following that to a T on my next batch of jars. Any reason for white millet as opposed to red? Red is what I can get locally easily, but I can search for white if it’s better. Also how long would you suggest I PC grains for if I’m doing quart jars? I do feel that PC time can drastically alter moisture content.

Quote:

nosf3r4tu said:
That's a good ideea. But you could also use LC to inoculate and give it a proper shake.




Yeah i am playing around with this too actually. I haven’t mentioned it because I just matured my first batch of pan LC the other day. I wanted to wait until I had a good clone culture to make LC. Two days ago, I knocked up two grain jars with it so we will see how it goes. I see some growth already but it will be a week before I really know.


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OfflineJakeoncid419
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Hindsight] * 1
    #27495977 - 10/07/21 11:43 AM (2 years, 3 months ago)

I’ve never used red but I don’t see why it wouldn’t work, I pc grain for 90 min


--------------------
Natural omt/detox
online  pant cult classes available last Saturday of every month go to buymeacoffee.com/jakeoncid to sign up (1 on 1 consultations also available
JOC PAN TEK
CORDYCEPS MILITARIS

EXOTICS
[


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OfflineHindsight
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Jakeoncid419]
    #27496018 - 10/07/21 12:08 PM (2 years, 3 months ago)

Awesome thanks JOC. This should help me a lot.


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