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Invisibleruawakeyet
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Registered: 05/03/21
Posts: 1,862
Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: onethroughthree] * 1
    #27475020 - 09/19/21 10:50 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Making your own casing mix is the way to go IMO. You will know exactly what is in it. Most people go with a 50/50 mix of peat moss and vermiculite. There is an important aspect I almost forgot: pH!  You want to add some horticultural hydrated lime to get your pH to around 7.5.

In order to make it easy to apply thinly and evenly, I drilled lots of 1/4 inch holes in some plastic jar lids, kind of like a parmesan shaker. I pasteurize the casing mix dry in the jars with the shaker lids. (Cover them with foil like they are PF jars.) Once cool, I simply shake it on the trays, misting it heavily with distilled water every so often as the casing layer grows, then place directly into fruiting conditions.

Your agar work sounds spot on. Your grain work sounds good as well. I just remembered another important point: Spawn to bulk ratio! With pans, you want to use a 1:4 or even a 1:5 ratio. I like 1:5 because the numbers just work better using pint jars with 3 quart trays. (6 pints = 3 quarts. My ratio is probably more like 1:5.4 since I use a myco pint of spawn, with 5 full pints of bulk.)

As for the bulk, people are having the best results with a mix of straw and aged hpoo. 50% - 60% straw, and 40% - 50% manure is recommended (by volume) You can add some vermiculite and garden gypsum if you have it, but not everyone uses those. If you haven't read JakeOncid's tek, I strongly recommend doing so. He pasteurizes in a slow cooker over night, so it takes several hours to get to temperature, then spends around 5 or 6 hours at temperature. Just make sure it doesn't go over 170 degrees F. (I prefer it to stay below 165 just to play it safe.)

Once your bulk has fully colonized, wait a day or two to apply your casing layer, then apply it as thinly as you can. You should see your colonized bulk still showing in spots here and there.

A lot of pan growers don't recommend SGFCs, but low tech FCs can work, just scroll back a page and look at PhosCap's grow!

Don't get discouraged, there is a learning curve for Pans, and you are SO close on only your second attempt. (And I'm not saying to give up on this attempt yet, it may still fruit, who knows.) Pans move so fast that you're next round could be fruiting in just a few weeks!

Here is my bulk recipe that I've been using: (Volume and weights are provided depending on how you want to measure.) This will make enough bulk for a single 3 quart pyrex cake pan when 1 myco pint of spawn is used.

Chopped Straw: 3 pints or 100 grams

Aged Hpoo: 2 pints or 140 grams (assuming the manure is bone dry)

Garden Gypsum: 1/4 cup or 58 grams

Vermiculite: 1 cup or 30 grams

Water: almost 2 7/8 cups or 685 grams

The gypsum and vermiculite are optional, just adjust the water amount if you omit them. This recipe gives me a good field capacity every time I've used it. JakeOncid originally used 1/2 cup of gypsum per tray, but I read that he doesn't even use it anymore. I think it is only there to help stabilize the pH of the substrate, which might help if you want as many flushes as you can.

Keep us posted, I have a feeling you will get fruits on your next grow!


Edited by ruawakeyet (10/03/21 08:58 PM)


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OfflineForestFunGuyGal
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: ruawakeyet] * 1
    #27475536 - 09/20/21 11:09 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Hindsight, about your stalling: common reasons for me have been too much water, too little water, too little air, and use of any grain.

I'm now a fan of Angam's approach: just use straw + manure. Spawn that onto same. You want it a little past field. Try to strike a balance of airy and wet.


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OfflineHindsight
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: ForestFunGuyGal] * 2
    #27475653 - 09/20/21 12:45 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

ForestFunGuyGal said:
Hindsight, about your stalling: common reasons for me have been too much water, too little water, too little air, and use of any grain.

I'm now a fan of Angam's approach: just use straw + manure. Spawn that onto same. You want it a little past field. Try to strike a balance of airy and wet.




Thank you - I assume you are referring to my stalled trays? If so, I do believe I figured it out. In my case it was shitty quality straw. All the straw around here looks the same, and since that's all I knew, I just assumed it was ok. On a whim, I ordered some organic straw online that ships compressed in a box and it is night and day different from what I was buying locally. The local stuff looks more like hay than straw (and probably is!) I have 5 trays growing now with the new straw, some of them sterilized and some pasteurized using JOC's 12 hour instapot tek, and all 5 are growing smashingly and colonizing rapidly. Looks like some of the trays will be fully colonized in just 3-4 days.

My current issue is grain jars stalling. I was doing ok with oats. Switched to millett and millet+rye to see if I could get better, more consistent results and instead it's worse. Going to keep trying different prep methods, but also different pan genetics.











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OfflineGrim11311
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Grim11311]
    #27475669 - 09/20/21 12:54 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Grim11311 said:
Hi guys. Just wanted to ask how this tub looks. Pan Cyan spore print to LC. Injected LC into WBS jars and spawned to a horse manure,straw and verm tub. Been colonizing for 10 days. Going to case tonight







I have a question.... why would a tub like this get trich 2 days after casing and puting to fruiting conditions? Didn't spot a single contam until today


--------------------


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Invisibleonethroughthree
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: ruawakeyet]
    #27475699 - 09/20/21 01:25 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

ruawakeyet said:
Making your own casing mix is the way to go IMO. You will know exactly what is in it. Most people go with a 50/50 mix of peat moss and vermiculite. There is an important aspect I almost forgot: pH!  You want to add some horticultural hydrated lime to get your pH to around 7.5. If you don't have a pH meter, this formula should get you pretty close. This is using Hi-Yield brand HL:

100 grams Vermiculite
100 grams Peat Moss (I'm picky, so I remove any sticks and break up any large clumps before measuring.)
11 grams Horticultural Hydrated Lime

This will make around 2 quarts of casing layer, which is enough for quite a few trays. In order to make it easy to apply thinly and evenly, I drilled lots of 1/4 inch holes in some plastic jar lids, kind of like a parmesan shaker. I pasteurize the casing mix dry in the jars with the shaker lids. (Cover them with foil like they are PF jars.) Once cool, I simply shake it on the trays, then mist it heavily with distilled water, then place directly into fruiting conditions.

Your agar work sounds spot on. Your grain work sounds good as well. I just remembered another important point: Spawn to bulk ratio! With pans, you want to use a 1:4 or even a 1:5 ratio. I like 1:5 because the numbers just work better using pint jars with 3 quart trays. (6 pints = 3 quarts. My ratio is probably more like 1:5.4 since I use a myco pint of spawn, with 5 full pints of bulk.)

As for the bulk, people are having the best results with a mix of straw and aged hpoo. 50% - 60% straw, and 40% - 50% manure is recommended (by volume) You can add some vermiculite and garden gypsum if you have it, but not everyone uses those. If you haven't read JakeOncid's tek, I strongly recommend doing so. He pasteurizes in a slow cooker over night, so it takes several hours to get to temperature, then spends around 5 or 6 hours at temperature. Just make sure it doesn't go over 170 degrees F. (I prefer it to stay below 165 just to play it safe.)

Once your bulk has fully colonized, wait a day or two to apply your casing layer, then apply it as thinly as you can. You should see your colonized bulk still showing in spots here and there.

A lot of pan growers don't recommend SGFCs, but low tech FCs can work, just scroll back a page and look at PhosCap's grow!

Don't get discouraged, there is a learning curve for Pans, and you are SO close on only your second attempt. (And I'm not saying to give up on this attempt yet, it may still fruit, who knows.) Pans move so fast that you're next round could be fruiting in just a few weeks!

Here is my bulk recipe that I've been using: (Volume and weights are provided depending on how you want to measure.) This will make enough bulk for a single 3 quart pyrex cake pan when 1 myco pint of spawn is used.

Chopped Straw: 3 pints or 100 grams

Aged Hpoo: 2 pints or 140 grams (assuming the manure is bone dry)

Garden Gypsum: 1/4 cup or 58 grams

Vermiculite: 1 cup or 30 grams

Water: almost 2 7/8 cups or 685 grams

The gypsum and vermiculite are optional, just adjust the water amount if you omit them. This recipe gives me a good field capacity every time I've used it. JakeOncid originally used 1/2 cup of gypsum per tray, but I read that he doesn't even use it anymore. I think it is only there to help stabilize the pH of the substrate, which might help if you want as many flushes as you can.

Keep us posted, I have a feeling you will get fruits on your next grow!




Brother, I appreciate you very much
You just gave me the push I needed and plenty of useful information / posts to utilize. I will absolutely keep you and and the thread updated on how my next effort goes. Gotta reup on hpoo this weekend. Looks like I’m taking a drive upstate, but first I’ll make sure I’m well versed on what you sent me


--------------------
Onethroughthree


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OfflineForestFunGuyGal
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Hindsight]
    #27475818 - 09/20/21 02:32 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Hindsight said:
Thank you - I assume you are referring to my stalled trays?

...

My current issue is grain jars stalling. I was doing ok with oats. Switched to millett and millet+rye to see if I could get better, more consistent results and instead it's worse. Going to keep trying different prep methods, but also different pan genetics.





No actually, I meant your grain. I've not tried grain, but from what I've read it seems a bit hit/miss. I'm suggesting you try Angam-style: inoculate the same stuff you spawn onto. Mine's mostly poo, straw, verm, and a touch of brf. Angam just uses 2:1 manure:straw.

I'm new though. But after a year of struggling to make fruits I can say fast colonization has been consistent

Super cool FC you got there. Can't wait to see you make history :laugh:


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OfflineAdas
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Registered: 12/22/16
Posts: 5,270
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: ForestFunGuyGal]
    #27475831 - 09/20/21 02:39 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

You haven't tried grain yet you advocate against it? :kittylaugh:

Learn some first, buddy. You have plenty of exploration to do before you're able to make an educated guess about what works/doesn't.


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OfflineAsuraS
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Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 5,047
Loc: Texas
Last seen: 11 days, 20 hours
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: ruawakeyet]
    #27475891 - 09/20/21 03:27 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

ruawakeyet said:

100 grams Vermiculite
100 grams Peat Moss (I'm picky, so I remove any sticks and break up any large clumps before measuring.)
11 grams Horticultural Hydrated Lime





That seems like an insane amount of lime. 6g to a gallon of water is what you would use to
cold pasteurize straw.

This is basically what I do for casing now. 50/50 and then make up
a gallon of water with 6g lime. Bring to field capacity. Easy peasy.


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Offlinesmalltalk_canceled
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Registered: 07/13/20
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Asura]
    #27475899 - 09/20/21 03:32 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Seeing that ugly bugly shoebox makes me want to retry pans


--------------------
Willpower is the one true virtue



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Invisibleruawakeyet
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Registered: 05/03/21
Posts: 1,862
Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Grim11311]
    #27475902 - 09/20/21 03:34 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Grim11311 said:
Quote:

Grim11311 said:
Hi guys. Just wanted to ask how this tub looks. Pan Cyan spore print to LC. Injected LC into WBS jars and spawned to a horse manure,straw and verm tub. Been colonizing for 10 days. Going to case tonight







I have a question.... why would a tub like this get trich 2 days after casing and puting to fruiting conditions? Didn't spot a single contam until today




Honestly, I'm surprised it waited this long to show up. I think injecting the spores directly to LC has something to do with it. Next time swab spores to agar; transfer a sector to a new plate, then go on from there. (At least one sector, transfer multiples to increase your odds of success.) I hope you didn't use the whole print. A 1/4 inch by 1/4 inch square is more than enough spores to swab multiple germ plates.

I can't stress this enough: Getting good with agar is a critical skill, one that had been holding me back for a long time. I now keep around a dozen agar plates (actually jars) ready to go at any given time. Practice practice practice!

I have only attempted one pan LC, but it didn't grow out at all. I transferred a sector of agar into a jar of LC, and it didn't do anything at all. I will attempt it again, but I've been doing agar to grain and skipping the LC. Pans don't need much grain, so I think a LC is a waste of time for pans.


Edited by ruawakeyet (09/20/21 04:35 PM)


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Invisibleruawakeyet
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Asura]
    #27475921 - 09/20/21 03:50 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Asura said:
Quote:

ruawakeyet said:

100 grams Vermiculite
100 grams Peat Moss (I'm picky, so I remove any sticks and break up any large clumps before measuring.)
11 grams Horticultural Hydrated Lime





That seems like an insane amount of lime. 6g to a gallon of water is what you would use to
cold pasteurize straw.

This is basically what I do for casing now. 50/50 and then make up
a gallon of water with 6g lime. Bring to field capacity. Easy peasy.




Hi Asura! It is definitely possible that my lime is old and has somewhat converted to calcium carbonate. I ordered a decent pH meter, and before adding lime, my 50/50 mix was around 6.3. I added small amounts at a time, mixed, allowed it to sit, then checked it again. I had to do this many times, and I was very surprised at how much lime was required to see any change in the pH.

I certainly don't want to argue with you, for I hold a ton of respect for you. I questioned that amount myself, but had to trust the pH meter I bought. It registered a normal range of what plain peat moss should be by itself, then showed gradual change as I added the lime. I was quite happy with the end results, but there certainly was room for improvement.

I would absolutely suggest other growers to follow your advice, and/or use a pH meter since materials can vary from region to region. Good to see you commenting here again, but I promise I'm not intentionally giving bad advice just to keep you around. :grin:


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OfflineAsuraS
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: ruawakeyet]
    #27475937 - 09/20/21 03:58 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Hey man, no arguments from me. I just thought it sounded a little high. If it works, it works.
I have a pretty decent pH meter but shit, maybe I need a new one, because I seem to get
inconsistent results with it lately. I just do the 6g/gallon method now and don't even fuck with
pH measurements these days. Seems to be working out.


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Invisibleruawakeyet
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Posts: 1,862
Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Asura] * 4
    #27475961 - 09/20/21 04:16 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Here was my first real pan grow. The best tray was a clone culture, the other were blind sectored from agar. One of them only grew mutants, and yielded like shit. This was the first flush:





I didn't have anything ready to replace these so I let them go as long as I could. The non-mutant MS tray got trich on the 7th flush, I let the other trays churn out their 8th flush before I pulled them due to low yield, but they never did contaminate. The plastic meal prep trays didn't work for shit, and only gave several fruits total.


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InvisibleGlitchInSpace
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Posts: 426
Loc: Texas
Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: ruawakeyet]
    #27476072 - 09/20/21 06:07 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

ruawakeyet said:
Quote:

Asura said:
Quote:

ruawakeyet said:

100 grams Vermiculite
100 grams Peat Moss (I'm picky, so I remove any sticks and break up any large clumps before measuring.)
11 grams Horticultural Hydrated Lime





That seems like an insane amount of lime. 6g to a gallon of water is what you would use to
cold pasteurize straw.

This is basically what I do for casing now. 50/50 and then make up
a gallon of water with 6g lime. Bring to field capacity. Easy peasy.




Hi Asura! It is definitely possible that my lime is old and has somewhat converted to calcium carbonate. I ordered a decent pH meter, and before adding lime, my 50/50 mix was around 6.3. I added small amounts at a time, mixed, allowed it to sit, then checked it again. I had to do this many times, and I was very surprised at how much lime was required to see any change in the pH.

I certainly don't want to argue with you, for I hold a ton of respect for you. I questioned that amount myself, but had to trust the pH meter I bought. It registered a normal range of what plain peat moss should be by itself, then showed gradual change as I added the lime. I was quite happy with the end results, but there certainly was room for improvement.

I would absolutely suggest other growers to follow your advice, and/or use a pH meter since materials can vary from region to region. Good to see you commenting here again, but I promise I'm not intentionally giving bad advice just to keep you around. :grin:




that does sound pretty high. i follow asura's casing recipe to a t. the first time i followed it and did my own ph reading and it was spot on. now i still use the exact recipe just don't read the ph anymore. it works every time.

edit
if it works for you, i definitely would stick to that. no sense in fixing it if it isn't broken. i suspect it might be the quality of your lime as the smallest amount will buffer my casing.


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InvisibleBaba Yaga
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: GlitchInSpace]
    #27476282 - 09/20/21 09:29 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Hey ruawakeyet I wanted to say this the first time you posted photos of your FC, I really like the look of it
.........now it also seems to work quite well........congrats :thumbup:


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Invisibleruawakeyet
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Baba Yaga]
    #27476306 - 09/20/21 09:52 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Thank you! I posted some photos of it empty, but I don't think anybody got too excited.


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InvisibleTheDoobskerS
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: ruawakeyet]
    #27476372 - 09/20/21 11:19 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

I really expected pins from this Wild Coast tray by now.



Cased 7 days ago. Hopefully I'm just getting too impatient :shrug:


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Invisibleruawakeyet
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: TheDoobsker]
    #27476382 - 09/20/21 11:38 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Are those knots forming along the far left corner in the first photo? It might just be verm, but they look like knots to me. Good luck!


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OnlineA.k.aM
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: ruawakeyet]
    #27476623 - 09/21/21 07:28 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

It might need more fae to kick up the evaporation


--------------------
LAGM2020


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InvisibleTheDoobskerS
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: A.k.a]
    #27476710 - 09/21/21 08:49 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Yeah I think you're right AKA. I've had a small fan pointed at the lid on a timer in the past. I think I need to set it up again.

Sadly, no I think it's just verm you're seeing haha


--------------------


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