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Messiah of Savants
Shaman



Registered: 07/02/08
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: FriedEgg]
#27236977 - 03/04/21 12:59 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
FriedEgg said: well yeah you're right but i'm not talking about temporal degradation of the alkaloids after drying. i'm talking about thermal degradation that happens during the drying process. we all know fresh pans are way stronger than dried ones. IMO, 4g fresh is out of this world but its dry equivalent (about 0.25g) is nothing special and doesn't even come close to comparing. (is that true for anyone else?) obviously pans are losing huge amounts of potency during the drying process. is 1g of dry pans still strong? fuck yeah, you'll get your mind blown outta your asshole but there's still a lot of potency being thrown away. i guess i'm just on that endless search for maximum efficiency. pans have a ton of psilocin and we all know psilocin is unstable. i'm going to play around with drying my pans with no or low heat and see if it makes a difference 
The first two times I tripped on pans were fresh and the third time was dry. I said the same thing after trying them dry for the first time. I've now tripped on dry pans 4 times now and fresh maybe 3. Almost every weekend since my first harvest. I've certainly noticed this.
I have a high tolerance and take large doses (25-30g cubes, 7.5-8g pans) so I think it _might_ be a bit easier to notice the difference in potency with mushrooms. After my first two trips fresh I mentioned I thought they were about 4x potency of cubensis. I would say dry they are 3x or maybe 3.5x at the VERY most. There is definitely an easily noticeable difference in strength between dry and wet from my perspective. My girlfriend takes about half what I dose and says the same thing. After I first tried them dry and experienced how much more weaker they are I remembered reading about it somewhere on here about how much potency is lost with pans when dried.
8g pans * 3.0x strength = 24g cubensis equivalent 8g pans * 3.5x strength = 28g cubensis equivalent 8g pans * 4.0x strength = 32g cubensis equivalent
As you can see, for doses I take, the difference in wet vs dry is a somewhat drastic one IMO. I'd say anywhere from 15%-25% stronger wet IME. I keep numbers on wet weight and what they dry to and calculate water percentage too for each flush and tray. So I know exactly the wet/dry equivalents are not off.
Obviously this is all subjective, but I have probably over 200 trips over the span of about 15 years. I feel like I know the experience and how my body reacts very well, but still, it can be difficult to quantify potency, especially with multispore grows. You kind of have to take a statistical approach. Also, one individual can get close to being able to quantify it themselves for themselves I feel, but between different people it starts becoming absolutely impossible as everyone has such vastly different reactions to the actives.
From what I understand about psilocin and drying, there's not much that can be done to stop this from happening. I think maybe an extraction of all wet fruits as soon as they are harvested and then froze is perhaps one of the few ways to preserve the psilocin? I will have to try that and just keep a few trays of trip cubes in the freezer. I've been meaning to try freezing extracts for a long time now, but get a bit scared about potentially wasting so many mushrooms if it doesn't work. I've heard many times over that freezing the extracts does work though, yet still I get worried. The mind is powerful! Gonna have to just jump in!
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coversall
إِنْ شَاءَ ٱللَهُ



Registered: 06/06/20
Posts: 2,749
Loc: संसार
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Man I think thi BVI grow was a goner from the start. I'm so convinced I either had some hidden contam or had a rubbish culture. The second batch of pan-cakes I noc'd have just stopped growing. Over a week and nothing. Tossed.
And the pots I'm fruiting are putting up some feeble looking fruit. Some of the caps look a little blotchy too. I'll get a photo tomorrow, but could that be a sign of something bacterial going on?
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smalltalk_canceled
Babnik


Registered: 07/13/20
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: jcm4620]
#27237009 - 03/04/21 01:17 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Better pic:
Edited by smalltalk_canceled (03/04/21 01:19 PM)
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jcm4620
Stranger


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garbage look how wet that shit is
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Messiah of Savants
Shaman



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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: jcm4620]
#27237043 - 03/04/21 01:38 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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It's not cobweb, but you're probably going to have problems with how soggy that is.
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A.k.a
Stranger



Registered: 10/27/19
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To me that myc looks ok but yeah those grains are way too wet.
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LAGM2020     
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jcm4620
Stranger


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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: A.k.a]
#27237090 - 03/04/21 02:12 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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i bet that shit smells sweet and or sour or fermented as hell
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TheDoobsker
Amateur



Registered: 05/22/20
Posts: 799
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: jcm4620]
#27237117 - 03/04/21 02:26 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
jcm4620 said:
Quote:
Jakeoncid419 said: Ime it’s better to dry fast & hot rather than slowly over hours. I dry em is fast as possible then str8 to vacuum seal. They are bangerang until opening
exactomundo
thats also what i do shit goes in the dehydrator soon as i harvest the last fruit and that bitch gets cranked to the 165 max temp and goes til cracker dry then they are vaccum sealed then placed in a large bag placed inside an air tight 5 gallon potato chip bucket from the local factory😂😂😂 then placed in a cool dry dark space. like i said earlier i still have some that are over a year n a hlf old and they r every single bit as good as they were the day i put them in there
How important is vacuum sealing? I've just been getting them to cracker dry at highest dehydrator temp and then throwing them into mason jars.
...
Got a couple grain rye jars in the pc now with plans to put these to grain today. But these are maybe doing some iffy things now? T1 of CFL looked great, but I've haven't been too confident in the WC since the start. Would you guys send these?
 
Changed my agar recipe from 14:20 to 25:20 with some yeast. Not liking the look of pans on this recipe, but my cubes are looking a lot better with it
Here was the T1 plate these CFL came from

Send it or no?
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A.k.a
Stranger



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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: TheDoobsker]
#27237152 - 03/04/21 02:42 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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You’ll be good with jars, just toss a desiccant pack in to be safe.
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LAGM2020     
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jcm4620
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: A.k.a]
#27237168 - 03/04/21 02:57 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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i just use vaccum sealed cuz i have the food saver and it takes me a long time to eat thru my stash so i just prefer vaccum sealing a cpl oz per bag. once i open a bag i make capsules outta them.
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Messiah of Savants
Shaman



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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: jcm4620]
#27237350 - 03/04/21 04:50 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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I found this a few months ago from 2010. Some of you may find this PDF interesting: Forensic analysis of hallucinogenic mushrooms and khat (Catha edulis FORSK) using cation-exchange liquid chromatography
Specifically on page 3 under "3.2. Preparation of mushroom samples" it says:
Quote:
Fresh mushrooms were collected from ‘‘grow-boxes’’, cut into longitudinal quarters and sorted into four groups. This procedure was necessary to ensure a maximum homogeneity of mushroom material between the four groups. In order to find optimal sample treatment conditions the four following methods were tested: direct extraction of fresh mushrooms, extraction of mushrooms dried to constant weight at different temperatures (20C and 60C) and extraction of freeze-dried mushrooms. The results are summarised in Table 1. Highest alkaloid concentrations were obtained when samples were freeze-dried prior to extraction. Drying at room temperature or extraction of fresh fungi obviously led to partial decomposition of the alkaloids so that only about half of the total calculated psilocin content was recovered. Partially, psilocybin seems to be dephosphorylated to psilocin (see Table 1, line 3) during the procedure. Drying at elevated temperature (60 8C) is not recommendable since 90% of total calculated psilocin content is decomposed. Extraction time was varied between 10 min and 4 h. A maximum of psilocybin and psilocin was found after 60 min of extraction. The extracted alkaloids were stable for several hours when kept at a dark place at room temperature.
With the numbers it shows for alkaloid content between 20C vs 60C tests you'd almost think that drying mushrooms on the highest setting would destroy half of the actives. This obviously doesn't seem to be the case in reality. So is this research wrong? Perhaps I'm I'm misunderstanding what they are saying. I wonder what some of you think after reading through that.
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Baba Yaga
♥ coir grower

Registered: 09/13/20
Posts: 3,958
Loc: Hyperspace Chicken Coop
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Drying them and storing air tight is so easy and will keep them for years without additional measures like refrigeration.
As long as the trip quality is still significantly better for me than a cubensis trip I am happy to just eat a little more and grow an extra tub to make up for the loss caused by a dehydrator.
There is still plenty of opportunity to eat some fresh after a harvest.
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tiptrippy
The Mechanic



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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Baba Yaga]
#27237432 - 03/04/21 05:40 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Well said yaga
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FriedEgg



Registered: 09/22/14
Posts: 2,536
Loc: Taiwan
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Quote:
Messiah of Savants said: With the numbers it shows for alkaloid content between 20C vs 60C tests you'd almost think that drying mushrooms on the highest setting would destroy half of the actives. This obviously doesn't seem to be the case in reality. So is this research wrong? Perhaps I'm I'm misunderstanding what they are saying. I wonder what some of you think after reading through that.
in table #1 i see the difference is a lot more than half.
Dried at 20-25C: Total calculated psilocin content is 0.496 mg per 100mg of dry fungi (or 0.496% of dry weight) Dried at 60C: Total calculated psilocin content is 0.086 mg per 100mg (or 0.086% of dry weight)
that's close to an 83% loss. i definitely notice a potency loss when drying but not an 83% potency loss. so i don't know what's going on.
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cronicr



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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: FriedEgg] 1
#27237928 - 03/04/21 11:40 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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yeah but you get way more psilocin from the psilocibin. You don't start out with much psilocin anyway right?
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  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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jcm4620
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: cronicr] 1
#27237942 - 03/04/21 11:52 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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u can boil fresh fruits and thats atleast 200-225 deg f so 165 in a dehydrator isnt gnna do shit to them. oxidization is your true enemy thats why its important to dehydrate them as fast and as soon as possible. within reason of coarse i mean ur not gnna roast em at 400 deg or some crazy shit.
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
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Loc: Van Isle
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: FriedEgg]
#27237971 - 03/05/21 12:28 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
FriedEgg said:
Quote:
Messiah of Savants said: With the numbers it shows for alkaloid content between 20C vs 60C tests you'd almost think that drying mushrooms on the highest setting would destroy half of the actives. This obviously doesn't seem to be the case in reality. So is this research wrong? Perhaps I'm I'm misunderstanding what they are saying. I wonder what some of you think after reading through that.
in table #1 i see the difference is a lot more than half.
Dried at 20-25C: Total calculated psilocin content is 0.496 mg per 100mg of dry fungi (or 0.496% of dry weight) Dried at 60C: Total calculated psilocin content is 0.086 mg per 100mg (or 0.086% of dry weight)
that's close to an 83% loss. i definitely notice a potency loss when drying but not an 83% potency loss. so i don't know what's going on.
psilocin on average is usually between .1 and .5 % where psilocybin can go up to a full 2% or more and is far more stable
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  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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FriedEgg



Registered: 09/22/14
Posts: 2,536
Loc: Taiwan
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: cronicr]
#27237981 - 03/05/21 12:45 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
cronicr said: yeah but you get way more psilocin from the psilocibin. You don't start out with much psilocin anyway right?
look at page 4, table #2. according to that paper, pan cyans have 2x as much psilocybin compared to cubes but 10x as much psilocin. that's probably why fresh pans are so much stronger than dried ones (a lot of that psilocin but not psilocybin is presumably lost in the dehydrator). that research paper says 83% of the psilocin is lost when drying at >140F but that number seems too high to me.
and that paper says pan cyans are 3% psilocin, not 0.1-0.5%. i think that number you got is for cubes.
Edited by FriedEgg (03/05/21 12:55 AM)
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FriedEgg



Registered: 09/22/14
Posts: 2,536
Loc: Taiwan
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: jcm4620]
#27237985 - 03/05/21 12:50 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
jcm4620 said: u can boil fresh fruits and thats atleast 200-225 deg f so 165 in a dehydrator isnt gnna do shit to them. oxidization is your true enemy thats why its important to dehydrate them as fast and as soon as possible. within reason of coarse i mean ur not gnna roast em at 400 deg or some crazy shit.
i dried some pans today at 140F for just 2 hours instead of my usual 24 hours i guess we'll see how it goes
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Messiah of Savants
Shaman



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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: FriedEgg]
#27238003 - 03/05/21 01:22 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
cronicr said: psilocin on average is usually between .1 and .5 % where psilocybin can go up to a full 2% or more and is far more stable 
That PDF I posted shows alkaloid content of Panaeolus Cyanescens (dried) at Psilocybin: 2.514±0.908 Psilocin:1.194±0.573 Total:3.001±0.239
That's around 1/3 of the total alkaloid content of the mushroom being psilocin AFTER being dried. They are claiming it loses well over half the psilocin when dried, which is pretty significant and would mean that there is equal to more psilocin than psilocybin in the average pan cyan when fresh, kind of hard to believe. But it's also showing that even after dried, psilocin is a significant part of the alkaloid content (around 1/3).
I don't feel like it loses that much when dried personally. I feel more like 15-25% based on my experiences comparing them to Cubensis, but those are the numbers from their tests.
Quote:
FriedEgg said: and that paper says pan cyans are 3% psilocin, not 0.1-0.5%. i think that number you got is for cubes.
The 3% number is the total calculated psilocin after psilocybin being converted to psilocin. 0.1-0.5% psilocin is definitely cubensis. They have pan cyan listed at 1.194% psilocin.
That paper has Pan Cyans at 3.0% total psilocin and Cubensis at 0.95% when dried. That makes Pan Cyans around 3x more potent than Cubensis by the numbers. It would also make Pan Cyans over 4x as potent as Cubensis when fresh. That is roughly around the guesses I've made based on my experiences.
I really wish they had tested Pan Cyans fresh. I have yet to be able to find anything online for numbers regarding fresh Pan Cyans.
Edited by Messiah of Savants (03/05/21 01:31 AM)
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