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OfflineEverything
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Tryptamines in substrate with DPT?
    #22216074 - 09/10/15 09:23 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Basically, i am going to try this. or if a friend wants to i will give him the DPT to add to substrate.

Not even shulgin has info on dosage of 4-ho-DPT but i have a pretty good guess its around 25mg for a moderate to strong dose :wink:

This is a project in the distant future, nothing of now. but will report back if i have results. there is seriously no info on 4-HO-DPT because shulgin says it is so hard to make but i think he meant synthetically not through the mushroom, at the time of pihkal this method was not known.


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Re: Tryptamines in substrate with DPT? [Re: Everything]
    #22230558 - 09/13/15 09:07 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

If you put it in the substrate the mycelium will just enzymaticly degrade it


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OfflineCoincidentiaoppositorum
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Re: Tryptamines in substrate with DPT? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #22230585 - 09/13/15 09:14 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

You are refering to jochen gartz "biotransformation of tryptamine compounds using stropharia cubensis, no?

He holds a patent on the process, he claims the enzymes do not care what tryptamine you provide them with, that they will 4-hydroxylate then 4-phosphoralyze said tryptamine, gartz claims that you need only to introduce the tryptamine to the substrate and that the 4-substituted version will be present in the cataphores.

He claims to have produced 4-ho-DET this way, and maybe another compound, I cant really remember.

Though I'm not sure if anybody has successfully reproduced these experiments.


-E. Borodin


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Re: Tryptamines in substrate with DPT? [Re: Coincidentiaoppositorum]
    #22233035 - 09/13/15 06:08 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

thanks dude, so has anyone on the shroomery attempted this unsuccessfully?


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OfflineCoincidentiaoppositorum
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Re: Tryptamines in substrate with DPT? [Re: Everything]
    #22234693 - 09/13/15 10:09 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Ive looked around and heard of some failures, (they said it just made the mushrooms smaller) there were also anecdotes of success, but nothing more than anecdotes.

If you do successfully reproduce gartz experiments, please share, ive been I interested in compounds like 5-methoxy-4-hydroxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine, which are difficult to produce in the lab, but could simply be produced by gartz proposed methods.

Gartz has a patent on the process, and claims he produced 4-HO-DET this way, so I would try to replicate the patented process exactly as he did...

Regardless, please let us know if you actually attempt this, as well as the result.

-E. Borodin


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Re: Tryptamines in substrate with DPT? [Re: Coincidentiaoppositorum]
    #22234909 - 09/13/15 11:11 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Okay, i will try with DET sometime in the future. However i don't have a source for it right now so i dunno, i'll get it figured out.

What about tryptamine? I also read someone successfully grew some more potent shrooms with were supposedly 2-3x as strong as normal.


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Re: Tryptamines in substrate with DPT? [Re: Everything]
    #22235008 - 09/13/15 11:36 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

The biosynthetic pathway for psilocybin starts from tryptophan which must be decarboxylated to tryptamine and so on, so a high tryptophan substrate would help, maybe even tryptamine would be bennificial, but I honestly cant say.

-E. Borodin


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Re: Tryptamines in substrate with DPT? [Re: Everything]
    #22235175 - 09/14/15 12:48 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Biosynthesis of Psilocybin Part II.*Incorporation of labelled tryptamine derivatives.

Stig Agurell and J. Lars G. Nilsson

Departments of pharmacognosy and chemistry, royal pharmaceutical institute, kungstensgatan 49, stockholm VA, Sweden.

Quote:

tryptamine which is readily formed from tryptophan by P. Cubensis, serves as a better precursor than tryptophan. If tryptamine is methylated to N-Methyltryptamine, this is an even better progenitor of psilocybin with incorporations showing that more than half of the psilocybin was derived from the introduced labelled precusor


.

More information of the ability of P. Cubensis to convert tryptophan to tyrptamine is also available from Agurell, S. and Nilsson, L. in the Acta Chemica Scandinavica 22 (1968)

Tryptamine works alright, tryptophan almost not at all, and NMT is the best hands down.


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OfflineCoincidentiaoppositorum
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Re: Tryptamines in substrate with DPT? [Re: Toadstool5]
    #22235226 - 09/14/15 01:41 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Toadstool5 said:
Quote:

Biosynthesis of Psilocybin Part II.*Incorporation of labelled tryptamine derivatives.

Stig Agurell and J. Lars G. Nilsson

Departments of pharmacognosy and chemistry, royal pharmaceutical institute, kungstensgatan 49, stockholm VA, Sweden.

Quote:

tryptamine which is readily formed from tryptophan by P. Cubensis, serves as a better precursor than tryptophan. If tryptamine is methylated to N-Methyltryptamine, this is an even better progenitor of psilocybin with incorporations showing that more than half of the psilocybin was derived from the introduced labelled precusor


.

More information of the ability of P. Cubensis to convert tryptophan to tyrptamine is also available from Agurell, S. and Nilsson, L. in the Acta Chemica Scandinavica 22 (1968)

Tryptamine works alright, tryptophan almost not at all, and NMT is the best hands down.




Hmm....I can understand how saving the fungi steps would be bennificial, so I can see how tryptamine would be better, but the fungi needs tryptophan to decarboxylate to produce the tryptamine in the first place, so tryptophan should be just as good, it would just take longer...but if this is not the case please elaborate, because I fully acknowledge I could be missing something here...

-E. Borodin


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Re: Tryptamines in substrate with DPT? [Re: Coincidentiaoppositorum]
    #22235228 - 09/14/15 01:43 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Is it because the NMT is directly methylated and hydroxylated where the tryptophan may be in intermediary States at the time of harvest?

-E. Borodin


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Re: Tryptamines in substrate with DPT? [Re: Coincidentiaoppositorum]
    #22235288 - 09/14/15 02:33 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

DAMN OKAY! so this is great this great!

SOMEONE could just get their NMT from someone who extracts DMT from Acacia Confusa Rootbark....we could somehow separate the NMT from the DMT and extract both simultaneously!

Then we could use the NMT in the mushroom grow, so when is the best time to add the NMT? the first poster said i should not put the substituted tryptamines in the substrate??? should i just ignore that completely if i am using NMT?


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Re: Tryptamines in substrate with DPT? [Re: Everything]
    #22235481 - 09/14/15 06:12 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

It would be 100% times easier to just grow good mushrooms


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Re: Tryptamines in substrate with DPT? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #22235641 - 09/14/15 08:22 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

...or to just take good DPT, or use the acacia for huasca brews...

-E. Borodin


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Re: Tryptamines in substrate with DPT? [Re: Coincidentiaoppositorum]
    #22237148 - 09/14/15 03:22 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

saving the fungi steps would be beneficial, so I can see how tryptamine would be better, but the fungi needs tryptophan to decarboxylate to produce the tryptamine in the first place, so tryptophan should be just as good, it would just take longer...but if this is not the case please elaborate, because I fully acknowledge I could be missing something here...




That is a very good observation. It was unexpected  and the authors could not figure out why but assumed it had to do with solubilities and enzyme regulation mechanisms.

If you add tryptophan it doesn't help as much as tryptamine because tryptamine concentration downregulates the production of more tryptophan. If you add tryptamine it skips the decarb and goes straight to methyltransferase but DMT is a strong downregulator of tryptamine production so tryptamine is only slightly better than tryptophan because of the skipping of the decarb. They are both downregulated at about the same rate.

If you add NMT it is more soluble and skips the two major downregulations of the pathway, DMT doesn't seem to be as absorbed as well as NMT though so it doesn't help much even though you would think it is the best.

Quote:

Tryptophan is decarboxylated via an enzyme called tryptophan decarboxylase to form tryptamine. This is the last major step in the pathway that is significantly inhibited by a self-feedback downregulation mechanism, meaning that if too much of a particular substance is in the cells the enzyme will stop converting tryptophan to tryptamine.  Here is a list of some inhibitors of tryptophan decarboxylase (copied from a paper at the lycaeum; unknown URL:)




http://www.shroomery.org/6227/The-Metabolic-Pathway-of-Psilocybin-Production

Quote:

we could somehow separate the NMT from the DMT and extract both simultaneously!

Then we could use the NMT in the mushroom grow, so when is the best time to add the NMT? the first poster said i should not put the substituted tryptamines in the substrate??? should i just ignore that completely if i am using NMT?




It might be difficult to separate NMT from DMT, maybe column chromatography? Physical separation would be probably be needed.

It has been awhile since I read the papers but i believe they added the chemicals to the bulk substrate, you do not want to autoclave or PC them so either at inoculation or at spawning is ideal.

Spawning is closer to the idiophase when secondary metabolites are booming and when we give them more oxygen to respirate and fruit so i would personally add them to pasteurized CVG and spawn my grains to the supplemented stuff in trays. Let it colonize, consolidate for a couple days, case, allow to colonize another day or two, then fruit.


Edited by Toadstool5 (09/14/15 03:35 PM)


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Re: Tryptamines in substrate with DPT? [Re: Toadstool5]
    #22237273 - 09/14/15 03:47 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

thanks everyone! this is some juicy information! okay now i need to figure out how to get my NMT and trptamine.

I am also still really fascinated with creating other substituted amphetamines (lol i mean tryptamines,just woke up) so i am going to read Gartz patent or whatever and see how he accomplished this. "mush" appreciation to all of you!


Edited by Everything (09/14/15 03:48 PM)


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Re: Tryptamines in substrate with DPT? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #22237282 - 09/14/15 03:49 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
It would be 100% times easier to just grow good mushrooms




I am aware of this, and want to do this too my friend :smile:


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Re: Tryptamines in substrate with DPT? [Re: Everything]
    #22237371 - 09/14/15 04:06 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

If you do add a substituted tryptamine to the substrate take a fruit body, dry it, grind it up, capsulate it, and send it to ecstasydata.org to be tested. Tell them it is a suspected substituted tryptamine not mdma and in a few weeks to months you will have analytical proof of it working :thumbup:


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Re: Tryptamines in substrate with DPT? [Re: Toadstool5]
    #22237467 - 09/14/15 04:32 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

I was wondering how i was going to conclude my experiment! :thumbup:


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Re: Tryptamines in substrate with DPT? [Re: Toadstool5]
    #22237930 - 09/14/15 06:17 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Toadstool5 said:
That is a very good observation. It was unexpected  and the authors could not figure out why but assumed it had to do with solubilities and enzyme regulation mechanisms.

If you add tryptophan it doesn't help as much as tryptamine because tryptamine concentration downregulates the production of more tryptophan. If you add tryptamine it skips the decarb and goes straight to methyltransferase but DMT is a strong downregulator of tryptamine production so tryptamine is only slightly better than tryptophan because of the skipping of the decarb. They are both downregulated at about the same rate.




You are right in that it is a self-feedback mechanism. Tryptophan decarboxylase is highly influenced by the amount of tryptophan so adding it (or any precursor) is counterproductive (or a waste of time). I'm not sure how much solubility matters as there are plenty of insolubles the mycelium can digest, so if it's in the substrate (not necessarily in aq. form) I would think it is safe to assume "it's there."

Looking back at that paper I wrote (many years ago) I posted a chart I found; it shows tryptamine having 62% inhibition and 5-HO-Tryptamine as having 45%. 5-Methoxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine, 5-Methoxytryptamine and Indole-3-pyruvic acid have 0% inhibition. Those would obviously be interesting to try since you could theoretically get more potency from them. N,N-dimethyltryptamine had 65% which is very close to 62%; given realistic accuracy, one could infer they are the same and the inhibition is simply from the demethylated counterpart in the surrounding cytoplasm. If DPT is handled in the same manner you'll likely see the same thing, otherwise you will get nothing or maybe 4-HO-DPT or even DPT dihydrogen phosphate; don't know. Also, if memory serves me correctly, the psosphorylation part was severely inhibited by tryptamine so there was a disproportionate amount of psilocin vs. -cybin present in the fruitbodies.

You should be able to test for the presence specific compounds pretty easily through various extraction methods and indicators. If you are looking for precise amounts, extraction and then GC/MS is the way to go (and necessary for novel stuff as I doubt that place has the resources to figure out what it is, unless they can provide a printout). Also, even with that it should be extracted for alkaloids first at least, I'd think, unless they do that... I really have no idea about that site. Never used it.

Sorry if that was vague but I obviously don't know what will happen since I've never done it  Just a brain dump. As for the 4-hydroxylation, it is interesting but I think it is a bit presumptuous of the authors to claim *anything* will be. I don't think they could realistically come to that conclusion unless they *tested* everything. It is interesting though; it obviously thinks it belongs on that pathway. Well, metaphorically speaking, as it is just an enzyme.

EDIT: Also, I have a large amount of 3-methyl-indole or about 25g straight indole I could give out if anyone wants to use them.


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Edited by micro (09/14/15 06:26 PM)


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OfflineCoincidentiaoppositorum
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Re: Tryptamines in substrate with DPT? [Re: Everything]
    #22238302 - 09/14/15 07:41 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17262409

http://countyourculture.com/2012/02/17/biosynthesis-4-substituted-tryptamine-derivatives/
(For sure go to this link, great stuff about gartz and the results of his biotransformstion experiments...)


Mycelial cultures of Psilocybe cubensis capable of forming psilocybin and psilocin de novo display a high capacity for hydroxylation of tryptamine derivatives at the 4-position. A specific biotransformation of added synthetic N,N-diethyl-tryptamine was found. Thus high amounts of 4-hydroxy-N,N-diethyltryptamine (up to 3.3%) and a minor quantity of 4-phosphoryloxy-N,N-diethyltryptamine (0.01-0.8%) were isolated from fruiting bodies of Psilocybe cubensisin corresponding experiments. This is the firstexampleof a directed biosynthesisof tryptamine substances by fungi. An effective biotransformation of N-methyltryptamine was also demonstrated with surface cultures of Psilocybe semilanceata. Baeocystin, a possible natural precursor of psilocybin, was detected and quantified in the biomasses. No alkaloids could be found in the culture medium.-  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2614674


Quote:

Sorry if that was vague but I obviously don't know what will happen since I've never done it Just a brain dump. As for the 4-hydroxylation, it is interesting but I think it is a bit presumptuous of the authors to claim *anything* will be. I don't think they could realistically come to that conclusion  and 4-phosphorlate


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