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OfflineCoincidentiaoppositorum
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what's the deal with Lepiota caerulescens?
    #22214186 - 09/09/15 08:22 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

These mushrooms (Lepiota caerulescens) bruise blue/green, yet I have not found any reference to psilocin content after searching the web.

Has this species been analysed?

Is this in fact a psilocin mushroom?

The bruising when handled looks nearly identical to psilocin oxidation bruising, I'm sure somebody out there has tested or sampled this fungi at some point in time, why is the alkaloid content impossible to locate?

-E. Borodin


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OfflineChk
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Re: what's the deal with Lepiota caerulescens? [Re: Coincidentiaoppositorum]
    #22222504 - 09/11/15 03:07 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

A lot of mushrooms bruise blue, that in no way indicate psilocybin presence.


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OfflineCoincidentiaoppositorum
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Re: what's the deal with Lepiota caerulescens? [Re: Chk]
    #22222621 - 09/11/15 03:34 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Lactarius indigo
(7-isopropenyl-4-methylazulen-1-yl)methyl stearate is the chemical that causes this mushroom to be blue.

·Entoloma hochstetteri
Gets its blue color from azuleine (bicyclo[5.3.0]decapentaene)

·Laccaria amethystina
I can't find the information on what causes this mushroom to be purple when young, but they are not active, and may even absorb arsenic from contaminated soil.

·Laccaria amethysteo-occidentalis
Is related to the mushroom above, it grows west of the Rockies, since these mushrooms are purple and not blue, confusion for an active species should not be common.

There are some boletes that bruise blue (due to an enzymatic process unrelated to psilocybin), but as these are not gilled mushrooms I am not including them.

If there's any I forgot please feel free to list them.

-E. Borodin




http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/22183234/page/1


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OfflineCoincidentiaoppositorum
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Re: what's the deal with Lepiota caerulescens? [Re: Coincidentiaoppositorum]
    #22222695 - 09/11/15 03:50 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

There's no way that the Lepiota species are bruising from (7-isopropenyl-4-methylazulen-1-yl)methyl stearate or azurine.

Boletes and ploypores bruise a result of the oxidation of pulvinic acid derivatives, like variegatic, xerocomic, and atrotomentinic acid, and this bluing does resemble what's going on with the lepiota, but I've never seen it in a gilled mushroom.

My guess is that it's due to psilocybin, but α-Amanitin, a deadly cyclic peptide, occurs in many lepiota species as well, so chemical analysis is the only safe way to determine the compound responsible for this phenomenon.

(The bluing lepiota species were not mentioned on my "inactive blue mushrooms" thread, because I'm not entirely convinced they are inactive, and if a species activity has yet to be confirmed I leave it off the active and inactive list.)

-E. Borodin


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OfflineCoincidentiaoppositorum
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Re: what's the deal with Lepiota caerulescens? [Re: Coincidentiaoppositorum]
    #22222730 - 09/11/15 03:56 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

It should have said Azulene instead of azurine in my last post, but my tablet is not letting me edit it...

-E. Borodin


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Re: what's the deal with Lepiota caerulescens? [Re: Coincidentiaoppositorum]
    #22225263 - 09/12/15 12:24 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

anyway, psilocyn/psilocybin doesn't turn blue when oxydizing, so your point is kinda moot :wink:


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Edited by Chk (09/12/15 12:25 AM)


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OfflineCoincidentiaoppositorum
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Re: what's the deal with Lepiota caerulescens? [Re: Chk]
    #22230404 - 09/13/15 08:28 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Yes, its said the bluing could be caused by an enzamatic process unrealeted to tryptamine compounds.

...though I have never fully accepted the notion, and have yet to.see the evidence that this is the case.

-E. Borodin


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OfflineCoincidentiaoppositorum
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Re: what's the deal with Lepiota caerulescens? [Re: Coincidentiaoppositorum]
    #22230415 - 09/13/15 08:31 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Some say that when psilocybin is hydrolysed into psilocin due to degradation or oxygen exposure it turns blue with in the fungi.

Some say its an oxidation product of psilocybin/psilocin or Baeocystin.

Some say its enzamatic and unrelated to tryptamine compounds.

-E. Borodin


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InvisibleToadstool5
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Re: what's the deal with Lepiota caerulescens? [Re: Coincidentiaoppositorum]
    #22232351 - 09/13/15 03:43 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

anyway, psilocyn/psilocybin doesn't turn blue when oxydizing, so your point is kinda moot




Quote:

The enzymic dephosphorylation and oxidation of psilocybin and pscilocin by mammalian tissue homogenates by A. Horita, L.J. Weber

Abstract

Incubation of psilocybin with rat kidney homogenates caused a rapid liberation of its -OH congener, psilocin, through the action of alkaline phosphatase. The psilocin thus formed underwent further degradation to form a blue-colored product. This last step appeared to be catalyzed by an oxidative enzyme which was cyanide-sensitive, but not to β-phenylisopropylhydrazine, a monoamine oxidase inhibitor; its optimal activity was at pH 9.0. In many respects it resembles the characteristics of a phenolase type enzyme. The distribution of the phosphatase and oxidase enzymes in a number of tissues from several species of animals was also investigated. Psilocybin-dephosphorylating activity was highest in the rat and mouse kidney and the mucosa of the small intestine of guinea pig and rabbit. Oxidase activity was highest in the heart of all species and in the kidney of the rat and mouse. These experiments indicate that possibly in the intact animal psilocybin is rapidly dephosphorylated and is pharmacologically active as psilocin, while the duration of the effect might be controlled by the oxidation of the latter compound to an o-quinone type of structure.




It does form a weird o-quinone byproduct through oxidation that is typically bluish/black.

Even synthetic will blue but the oxidation takes much longer due to the lack of oxidases.

Psilocybin does typically need to be broken down from enzymes to convert to psilocin but acidic solutions will convert it completely, then the psilocin oxidizes into the unidentified o-quinone and turns blue.

Like mentioned there are several other compounds and mixtures that can bruise blue/green so it doesn't ensure safety :shrug:

Lepiota has also been known to bruise pink, red, and grey so it's hard to say what causes it. Stamets mentioned it in '96 and basically said it might have psilocybin/psilocin but there had been no chemical analysis he was aware of that highlighted the pigmentation of the species.


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If you do not know where the mushroom products you are consuming are grown, think twice before eating them. :badshroom:
- Paul Stamets

AMU Teks :mushroom2: Stro's Write Ups


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OfflineCoincidentiaoppositorum
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Re: what's the deal with Lepiota caerulescens? [Re: Toadstool5]
    #22234639 - 09/13/15 09:55 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Great post.

Thanks, that really helps clear things up.

-E. Borodin


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Re: what's the deal with Lepiota caerulescens? [Re: Toadstool5]
    #22240232 - 09/15/15 08:38 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Which seems weird considering you can have cubensis bruise nearly black which have bunk potency, and inversely  nearly no bruising and quite a lot of potency


i personally witnessed the 2 cases in my diff growth, and i was kinda excited when seeing that intense bruising (turned dark blue in 5 sec, was black 30 sec later), and turned very sad as you can imagine when i ate those bunk shroom XD


also, truffle don't bruise ?


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Edited by Chk (09/15/15 08:39 AM)


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OfflineCoincidentiaoppositorum
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Re: what's the deal with Lepiota caerulescens? [Re: Chk]
    #22240382 - 09/15/15 09:20 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

If the bruising is due to psilocin oxidation and the 0-quinone by product it produces, than deep bluing would mean you had created a good deal of the 0-quinone right? If the blue 0-quinone is non-active than yes, blue bruising  can indicate the presence of active compounds, but no, it can not indicate potency as the "blue" is an inactive oxidation product...

What do you think? Reasonable?

-E. Borodin


Edited by Coincidentiaoppositorum (09/15/15 09:21 AM)


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InvisibleToadstool5
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Re: what's the deal with Lepiota caerulescens? [Re: Coincidentiaoppositorum]
    #22241951 - 09/15/15 03:58 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Yeah bluing can be a sign of potency or a sign of degredation of the psilocin. I found if only the outside flesh is bruised they are good but if the bluing is throughout the flesh there is not much left to enjoy.

It's always different with each fruit body so trying to predict potency is somewhat pointless.


--------------------
If you do not know where the mushroom products you are consuming are grown, think twice before eating them. :badshroom:
- Paul Stamets

AMU Teks :mushroom2: Stro's Write Ups


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