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Cognitive_Shift
CS actual




Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 29,591
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: Enlil] 1
#22483455 - 11/05/15 10:02 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: They enrich the nation culturally which has far more value than the few billion they cost.
How so? I do like mexican food, what you said sounds good but I don't think it actually means anything. Cultural enrichment is totally subjective and isn't necessarily a good thing.
-------------------- L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
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qman
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Quote:
Enlil said: They enrich the nation culturally which has far more value than the few billion they cost.
"few billion they cost"
They costs hundreds of billions and lower the standard of living for 99% of US citizens.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: qman]
#22483516 - 11/05/15 10:13 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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You linked a video of it earlier in this thread. I can walk out of my house any day and enjoy the rich latino culture around me.
I pity you that you see it as a negative.
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Enlil
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: qman]
#22483531 - 11/05/15 10:14 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said: lower the standard of living for 99% of US citizens.
The standard of living for 99% of U.S. citizens is unsustainable and should be lowered. The rest of the world is living in abject poverty in comparison. What makes you think that you're entitled to live the life of luxury while the rest of the world suffers?
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: Enlil]
#22483561 - 11/05/15 10:20 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: It's strictly a tax payment/tax money usage calculation. It isn't about the economy per se.
I just find that when people say things like "My tax dollars going to support an illegal", the case is usually that their tax dollars aren't even enough to cover their own cost to the taxpayers.
Right. That's definitely true, but I think a very good argument could be made that the average American contributes more to tax revenue than what they pay out in April.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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Enlil
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It is the nature of a progressive tax system that a good portion will get more than they give. I'm not endorsing or criticizing the merits of such a system. Simply put, there is no good tax system, and when government gets as large as ours is, the bad parts of the system become more problematic.
I'd be happy to see our tax system being used to fund a necessary government instead of all of the other goals it attempts to serve today.
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burgerbrain
Freedom Lover



Registered: 09/18/15
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: Enlil]
#22483605 - 11/05/15 10:29 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
qman said: lower the standard of living for 99% of US citizens.
The standard of living for 99% of U.S. citizens is unsustainable and should be lowered. The rest of the world is living in abject poverty in comparison. What makes you think that you're entitled to live the life of luxury while the rest of the world suffers?
ROFL, hilarious. When are you giving your life saving to the 3rd world, lawyer?
Change first starts with the individual
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: Enlil] 1
#22483609 - 11/05/15 10:29 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
qman said: lower the standard of living for 99% of US citizens.
The standard of living for 99% of U.S. citizens is unsustainable and should be lowered. The rest of the world is living in abject poverty in comparison. What makes you think that you're entitled to live the life of luxury while the rest of the world suffers?
Firstly, I wouldn't say 'the rest of the world lives in abject poverty'. People in a significant portion of the world enjoy a higher standard of living than Americans do. Also, I don't believe we should partake in some sort of 'race to the bottom', lowering our standards of living to those of a 3rd world country, which some around here have no problem doing.
The suffering parts of the world suffer for various reasons that we have no control over. The Middle East, for example, has plenty of money to partake in innovative industrial pursuits. Their suffering is the direct result of theocratic rule. In Saudi Arabia they have free college, but everyone goes to school for religious studies, so it doesn't really do them any good. South America is on the rise, as is much of Asia. Africa has some of the most resource dense areas in the world, but much of Africa remains highly uncivilized and dangerous.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: Enlil]
#22483628 - 11/05/15 10:31 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: It is the nature of a progressive tax system that a good portion will get more than they give. I'm not endorsing or criticizing the merits of such a system. Simply put, there is no good tax system, and when government gets as large as ours is, the bad parts of the system become more problematic.
I'd be happy to see our tax system being used to fund a necessary government instead of all of the other goals it attempts to serve today.
Define 'necessary government'. What goals are you speaking of? Bombing the world into 'democracy'? Or do you mean social safety net programs?
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
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I would say both and a lot more. Taxation in the U.S. has been used to encourage/discourage behavior. It has been used to enforce political agendas worldwide. It has been used to redistribute wealth. None of these are legitimate roles, imo, of taxation. Taxes should be used to fund government in its execution of legitimate government purposes.
You and I are going to draw the boundaries of "necessary government" in very different places, of course. I think our Constitution draws them very clearly, but those boundaries have been expanded far beyond the intent of that document by a broad, and imo inappropriate, interpretation of the commerce clause and the welfare clause.
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Count of Sabugosa
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@Enlil - what the guy said about you coming back, I back it up. But still, I replied to a few of the most explicit comments.
Quote:
hostileuniverse said: Well, I guess I'm beat, y'all are just too damn smart for me...
These numbers are easily found, I don't understand why y'all would rather insult and belittle me, rather than refuting the numbers. I guess it's all you left...
http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/may/6/report-legalizing-illegal-immigrants-cost-6-3-t/?page=all
http://mobile.wnd.com/2015/08/71-of-illegals-with-kids-collect-welfare/
http://www.rense.com/general81/dtli.htm
Those articles return the numbers. Nothing to do with you, there is no joking nor trolling here.
The Washington Post article says that those numbers and other variables are disputed, as follows:
Quote:
All sides in the debate are rushing to frame the bill on their own terms, and turning to numbers and statistics for backup.
Last week, the Center for American Progress, a left-leaning think tank that is advocating a broad legalization, said the bill would reduce illegal immigration in the future because any increase in legal immigration would be more than covered by a drop in illegal entries.
Opponents of the immigration bill disputed those numbers.
Steven A. Camarota, research director at the Center for Immigration Studies, said even assuming all illegal immigration is halted, the U.S. would have to create more than 30 million jobs in the next decade in order to make up for the past few years plus accommodate population growth and the surge of legal immigration envisioned in the bill.
Seeing that the Washington Post is conservative (the financial world is, when it suits it), and the article mostly presents only one side of the issue, I believe this small part aforementioned already explains why the numbers don't fit.
The WND is not a reliable source. Just look at the format and kind of articles it displays, so there is only one side of the story covered there.
And this one, of which title already gives out its explicit bias, begins with a figure that was painted at approximately 6 trillion in taxes or benefits due and received:
Quote:
Illegal alien migration into the United States costs American taxpayers $346 billion annually
Which one is it? 6 trillion or 346 billion?
What about the other variables, such as the fact that illegal immigration has gone down in the past years (source pending), and that there is no practical way of expelling every illegal immigrant, but there is a way to make them officially accountable?
In any case, your arguments are about being right or wrong. I don't think it's the case. We have a large gray area here.
Quote:
qman said:
Illegals are NOT eligible for welfare, but when they have a child born in the US they are now using the child's status to use every social service that exists.
Dick Cheney style: So?
Quote:
qman said:
Do you really want people like that in our country? The attitude is disgusting. It's no surprise Trump is #1 in the polls. 
How many people who have not been murderous dictators said what you just said. Watch out for the give-away that this has nothing to do with what is better for the country, but about hatred itself.
-------------------- In Hebrew, the words "wine" and "secret" hold the same numerologic value. When wine comes in, secrets spill out. Do you think the person who said that knew mushrooms? When mushrooms come in... Is there anything beyond a secret?
Edited by Count of Sabugosa (11/06/15 07:20 AM)
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qman
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: Enlil]
#22484811 - 11/06/15 08:02 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: You linked a video of it earlier in this thread. I can walk out of my house any day and enjoy the rich latino culture around me.
I pity you that you see it as a negative.
"the rich latino culture"
Does that include the young girls pushing the baby stroller with her 2 other children that her and the other fathers can't afford?
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: qman]
#22484844 - 11/06/15 08:12 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Of course it does...just like American culture includes the pregnant white lady pushing a stroller through the Walmart parking lot with a cig hanging out of her mouth.
It takes all kinds to make a culture.
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qman
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: Enlil]
#22484852 - 11/06/15 08:14 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
qman said: lower the standard of living for 99% of US citizens.
The standard of living for 99% of U.S. citizens is unsustainable and should be lowered. The rest of the world is living in abject poverty in comparison. What makes you think that you're entitled to live the life of luxury while the rest of the world suffers?
"The standard of living for 99% of U.S. citizens is unsustainable and should be lowered"
It's more than sustainable, you just want justification for bringing in more poor people into the US, no one buys into that self-hating mentality.
"The rest of the world is living in abject poverty in comparison"
I don't think so, our middle class ranks below 25th on a global basis, why are you trying to compare the US to African nations? 
"What makes you think you are entitled to live the life of luxury while the rest of the world suffers?"
So you must feel an overwhelming sense of guilt in your daily life, how do you deal with it? How do you deal with driving the nice car, eating at nice restaurants, living in the nice home, watching the bank account grow at the nice pace? It must be so painful!!
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,474
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: qman]
#22484906 - 11/06/15 08:35 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Like most Americans, I learn to rationalize it. I try to get a couple hundred toilets installed in third world nations every year, but I know that's a drop in the bucket. I also know that a reduction in standard of living is inevitable, regardless of what I may do to prevent it.
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Count of Sabugosa
Nerdy floater



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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: qman]
#22485168 - 11/06/15 09:45 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
Enlil said: You linked a video of it earlier in this thread. I can walk out of my house any day and enjoy the rich latino culture around me.
I pity you that you see it as a negative.
"the rich latino culture"
Does that include the young girls pushing the baby stroller with her 2 other children that her and the other fathers can't afford?
Do you mean white American trash women? Incest-pregnant American white trash? Yeah... that IS a shame...
-------------------- In Hebrew, the words "wine" and "secret" hold the same numerologic value. When wine comes in, secrets spill out. Do you think the person who said that knew mushrooms? When mushrooms come in... Is there anything beyond a secret?
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Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: Enlil]
#22485205 - 11/06/15 09:56 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: I would say both and a lot more. Taxation in the U.S. has been used to encourage/discourage behavior. It has been used to enforce political agendas worldwide. It has been used to redistribute wealth. None of these are legitimate roles, imo, of taxation. Taxes should be used to fund government in its execution of legitimate government purposes.
You and I are going to draw the boundaries of "necessary government" in very different places, of course. I think our Constitution draws them very clearly, but those boundaries have been expanded far beyond the intent of that document by a broad, and imo inappropriate, interpretation of the commerce clause and the welfare clause.
If the government hadn't redistributed wealth, America would have already collapsed, and it will again if it doesn't. I'll tell you what's unsustainable: a single family worth $150 billion, more than many countries GDP.
When wealth concentrates too much, economies collapse. We have 3 options: redistribute in a capitalist wealth preserving manner, embrace Socialism, or allow natural and economically violent adjustments to occur organically.
I don't care terribly much what the constitution has to say on the matter. It is not gospel to me. However, I believe it was intentionally written to encompass a broad range of governing styles within certain parameters in order to maintain relevance through the ages, and as far as I am aware, the government has not illegally overstepped those bounds.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,474
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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I don't have a problem with government redistributing wealth. I have a problem with government using taxes to do it a la robin hood.
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: qman]
#22485234 - 11/06/15 10:01 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
Enlil said: You linked a video of it earlier in this thread. I can walk out of my house any day and enjoy the rich latino culture around me.
I pity you that you see it as a negative.
"the rich latino culture"
Does that include the young girls pushing the baby stroller with her 2 other children that her and the other fathers can't afford?
... lmao! That's American culture your are referring to bro. He said 'diverse cultures'. At least reference the Cholo/Chola culture if you want to talk about Mexican trash! Lol
Then let's have a discussiin about the evangelical inbred bootlegging hillbilly's in 'Bama for a minute.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
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Quote:
royque1980 said:
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
Enlil said: You linked a video of it earlier in this thread. I can walk out of my house any day and enjoy the rich latino culture around me.
I pity you that you see it as a negative.
"the rich latino culture"
Does that include the young girls pushing the baby stroller with her 2 other children that her and the other fathers can't afford?
Do you mean white American trash women? Incest-pregnant American white trash? Yeah... that IS a shame...
If they're US citizens and not breaking any immigration laws, so be it. Sounds like you have a hatred of "white American trash women".
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