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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22440066 - 10/27/15 12:43 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Who said reasonable?  I said inevitable.  Today, we don't have the technology to replace oil except with other fossil fuels.  That technology is probably decades away from existing.  Even once it does, it will be another few decades before it becomes the economically feasible choice for a good portion of the world. 

For now, the choice for most of the world is between clean water, safe food, healthcare, etc. and some distant future threat being averted.  It is not realistic to expect humans to give up comfort, safety, or life in service of a future within which they will not live.


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: Enlil]
    #22440122 - 10/27/15 12:59 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Okay, rational not reasonable...

Quote:

Enlil said:
All of that carbon WILL end up in the atmosphere and the ocean.  That's inevitable.  No amount of education is going to change that.  Education serves to help people make the rational choice.  The reality is that burning fossil fuel does far more good than harm, and the rational choice is to burn as much as possible.




"and the rational choice is to burn as much as possible."

I reject the notion that it's some distant future threat.  If you've read previously in the thread we're seeing the effects of climate change now.  People are dying now.  We're facing the impact now.  Yes, things will get much worse in the near, not distant, future.

I also reject the notion that the technology is so far off.  Copenhagen is pushing to be carbon neutral within the decade.  The entire country of Denmark is pushing to be carbon neutral by 2050.  They've done this while remaining ahead of us in business friendliness and without sacrificing the comfort or safety of their citizens.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22440147 - 10/27/15 01:07 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Reject both notions, but I've been on this planet for a long time, and I can't think of a time when there wasn't a claim of clean, unlimited energy right around the corner.  I also can't think of a time when there wasn't a gloom and doom scenario around the corner.

Maybe now is the real time for both...I have serious doubts, though.


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: Enlil]
    #22440158 - 10/27/15 01:09 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

You know I hear ya on both counts.  It's always apocalypse and gloom and doom.  Honestly if I didn't have kids I probably wouldn't care.

This scares me.  Scares the shit out of me.  I hope their future isn't totally fucked but I think it probably is.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22440184 - 10/27/15 01:14 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Okay, rational not reasonable...

Quote:

Enlil said:
All of that carbon WILL end up in the atmosphere and the ocean.  That's inevitable.  No amount of education is going to change that.  Education serves to help people make the rational choice.  The reality is that burning fossil fuel does far more good than harm, and the rational choice is to burn as much as possible.




"and the rational choice is to burn as much as possible."

I reject the notion that it's some distant future threat.  If you've read previously in the thread we're seeing the effects of climate change now.  People are dying now.  We're facing the impact now.  Yes, things will get much worse in the near, not distant, future.

I also reject the notion that the technology is so far off.  Copenhagen is pushing to be carbon neutral within the decade.  The entire country of Denmark is pushing to be carbon neutral by 2050.  They've done this while remaining ahead of us in business friendliness and without sacrificing the comfort or safety of their citizens.




Just another green energy scam...

Quote:


Biomass made from wood is considered to be carbon neutral by the EU since the new trees that are planted will eventually absorb the carbon emissions that came from burning the ones that were cut down. However burning wood is only carbon neutral if the land is reforested, and even then there is a time lag of up to 100 years before the carbon "debt" has been neutralized by new trees.




http://www.thelocal.dk/20150716/copenhagen-faces-bumpy-road-to-carbon-neutrality


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22440200 - 10/27/15 01:17 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
There's proof, google it.  They've known the link between carbon and global warming longer than anyone.

Much like the tobacco companies, that knew smoking was dangerous and covered it up.  We held the tobacco companies accountable, we should do the same with EXxon.




How about the fact that they fought and hid research about lead in gasoline for years.

If they had succeeded, you wouldn't be using unleaded gasoline, and you'd probably be crazy as fuck with kidney problems.


--------------------
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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22440225 - 10/27/15 01:22 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

You really cherry picked that article.  But thanks for digging into the specifics.

Yes, they are growing trees and burning them which is more carbon friendly than fossil fuels.  They're also investing heavily in wind power which isn't something every country can do.  And they're still importing goods from other countries that use fossil fuels.

The point is that we can all make changes.  Can we stop climate change?  No, it's already happening.  But maybe, if we work to minimize the damage, my kids will get to live as long as their grandparents did.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22440249 - 10/27/15 01:27 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Trees grow fairly fast, it does not take 100 years. You can have a stand of new trees mature enough to harvest in less than 20 years. If you use some of the newer crops of burnable biomass, it could be a couple years or less. Will that make much of a difference? Its hard to say.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22441163 - 10/27/15 05:34 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Trees grow fairly fast, it does not take 100 years. You can have a stand of new trees mature enough to harvest in less than 20 years. If you use some of the newer crops of burnable biomass, it could be a couple years or less. Will that make much of a difference? Its hard to say.




I think he was saying it takes 100 years for the trees to turn the CO2 back into O2. Not to grow them.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


Edited by Bigbadwooof (10/27/15 05:35 PM)


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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22442236 - 10/27/15 09:14 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

The 'link between CO2 and global warming is a hypothesis.  You can't say someone is covering something up for not agreeing or commenting on a hypothesis.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: starfire_xes]
    #22442542 - 10/27/15 10:36 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
The 'link between CO2 and global warming is a hypothesis.  You can't say someone is covering something up for not agreeing or commenting on a hypothesis.




I was referring to fuel companies covering up rssearch on leaded gasoline, however, if they're stifling scientific research on the subject of CO2, then it is a cover up. I'm not well-versed on that situatiom though.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22442695 - 10/27/15 11:19 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

starfire_xes said:
The 'link between CO2 and global warming is a hypothesis.  You can't say someone is covering something up for not agreeing or commenting on a hypothesis.




I was referring to fuel companies covering up rssearch on leaded gasoline, however, if they're stifling scientific research on the subject of CO2, then it is a cover up. I'm not well-versed on that situatiom though.





LEADED GASOLINE????  They haven't sold leaded gasoline for 40 years.  The catalytic converter was the result of the smartest environmental policy that ever had origins in DC.

As far as coverups on Co2 i would think the IPCC's misdeeds during climategates, the fudging of data and the specious 'peer review' policy where everyone that peer reviewed papers was working towards the same agenda really harmed the credibility of Warmers.  Even the ex head of the IPCC said global warming was about an agenda.


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: starfire_xes]
    #22443535 - 10/28/15 07:04 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
The 'link between CO2 and global warming is a hypothesis.  You can't say someone is covering something up for not agreeing or commenting on a hypothesis.




:huxleyfacepalm:

Quote:

"In the first place, there is general scientific agreement that the most likely manner in which mankind is influencing the global climate is through carbon dioxide release from the burning of fossil fuels," Black told Exxon's Management Committee, according to a written version he recorded later.

It was July 1977 when Exxon's leaders received this blunt assessment, well before most of the world had heard of the looming climate crisis.




General scientific agreement is beyond a hypothesis.  And this was EXxon's own scientists, in 1977!


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: starfire_xes]
    #22443538 - 10/28/15 07:05 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Of course they have an agendA, if extreme left wingers are funding your research, and are expecting a certain result, of course they're gonna do anything they can to bring it about. After climate gate, they lost HUGE credibility, the folks who are supposed to present facts, did anything but.


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22443542 - 10/28/15 07:08 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

So...  the left wingers funded EXxon's own in house research that confirmed man-made climate change almost 40 years ago?

Give me a break.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22443635 - 10/28/15 07:39 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
So...  the left wingers funded EXxon's own in house research that confirmed man-made climate change almost 40 years ago?

Give me a break.




Not talking about the study 40 years ago, talking about the recent ones, try to keep up

Are you saying that Exxon has an agenda, but nobody else does? :rolleyes:


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22443760 - 10/28/15 08:15 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

You can't say that man made climate change is a hypothesis, dismiss evidence presented 40 years ago, and then dismiss 'climategate' evidence because some hacker caught some scientists acting jerky in their private emails and denialists blew it way out of context.

Sure, everyone has an agenda.  But the two of you are acting like it's some left wing conspiracy.

The ship is sinking.  Some of us would like to grab some buckets so our kids can survive long enough to make it to the lifeboats.  The two of you want to hide below deck, pretend that everything is okay, and act like the rest of us are crazy.

And this, is why I won't vote GOP.  If Trump wants my vote he needs to grow some balls, split with party rhetoric, and be honest about climate change.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22443951 - 10/28/15 09:08 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

If moon's info is correct that perma frost is melting and releasing massive amounts of methane, it may be too late for us to do anything about it. Perhaps we should focus more on air and water pollution rather than preventing something that looks like it will happen no matter what.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22444632 - 10/28/15 12:13 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

I'm all for green energy, wind turbine maintainence is a pretty good job, but they don't want to stop there, they want all sorts of bullshit regulations to put energy companies out of business


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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22446313 - 10/28/15 07:37 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Quote:

starfire_xes said:
The 'link between CO2 and global warming is a hypothesis.  You can't say someone is covering something up for not agreeing or commenting on a hypothesis.




:huxleyfacepalm:

Quote:

"In the first place, there is general scientific agreement that the most likely manner in which mankind is influencing the global climate is through carbon dioxide release from the burning of fossil fuels," Black told Exxon's Management Committee, according to a written version he recorded later.

It was July 1977 when Exxon's leaders received this blunt assessment, well before most of the world had heard of the looming climate crisis.




General scientific agreement is beyond a hypothesis.  And this was EXxon's own scientists, in 1977!




No it isnt. And there isn't as widespread agreement as claimed.  People agreeing doesn't prove anything.  And don't try to tell me about science,because i'm a professional engineer.

They havent got any of the climate models right yet,as far as i know. 

And as far as burning fossil fuels, do you know how much energy is contained in all the fossil fuels that are estimated to be left on earth?


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