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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
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That is a ridiculous argument. If you're going to blame Exxon for global warming, then you also have to give them praise for the countless lives extended and improved by the burning of oil. There is no question that fossil fuels have been a far greater benefit than harm to humanity.
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: Enlil]
#22439236 - 10/27/15 08:25 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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You don't believe companies should be held accountable for misleading the public and misrepresenting the dangers of their products?
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
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Strawman much?
He asked how Exxon was endangering us. Your answer was that their product causes global warming. That answer is ridiculous because their product also causes every modern convenience and lifestyle improvement including the very internet you're using.
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: Enlil]
#22439257 - 10/27/15 08:36 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Who's strawmanning? That wasn't my answer.
Quote:
paperbackwriter said: They've known the link between carbon and global warming longer than anyone.
Knowing about the dangers of a product you're selling and misleading the public about those dangers puts the public at risk.
i.e. it endangers the public.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
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How does that endanger the public, exactly? Whether or not the public knows about global warming is irrelevant. Global warming is inevitable. The public will demand that we burn every drop of oil we can pull out of the ground. That's reality, and you should probably accept it.
Even if 100% of the population knew with 100% certainty that driving their cars would mean a billion deaths in 30 years, they'd still drive their cars. That's human nature.
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


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Posts: 1,888
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: Enlil]
#22439290 - 10/27/15 08:49 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: How does that endanger the public, exactly?
Because we could have started making changes thirty years ago instead of still having half the country believing oil company propaganda today, when it may already be too late.
Quote:
Whether or not the public knows about global warming is irrelevant. Global warming is inevitable. The public will demand that we burn every drop of oil we can pull out of the ground. That's reality, and you should probably accept it.
This is a really dumb argument. Yes, the general public generally makes bad decisions individually. I still struggle with smoking in spite of knowing the dangers.
That said the actions we've taken collectively to curb smoking and educate the public about the dangers has had an obvious impact and has reduced the public health costs (dangers) of smoking substantially.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: Enlil]
#22439306 - 10/27/15 08:55 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: Strawman much?
He asked how Exxon was endangering us. Your answer was that their product causes global warming. That answer is ridiculous because their product also causes every modern convenience and lifestyle improvement including the very internet you're using.
It might be a shortsighted answer but that doesn't make it false.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
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Quote:
paperbackwriter said:
Because we could have started making changes thirty years ago instead of still having half the country believing oil company propaganda today, when it may already be too late.
As I said, it's never going to happen. It doesn't matter how efficient we become or how many alternative fuels are developed, we are going to burn every drop of oil we can get and every cubic inch of natural gas. We may not burn every pound of coal we get, but that won't have anything to do with global warming...that'll be an economic decision.
All of that carbon WILL end up in the atmosphere and the ocean. That's inevitable. No amount of education is going to change that. Education serves to help people make the rational choice. The reality is that burning fossil fuel does far more good than harm, and the rational choice is to burn as much as possible. This is why a comparison to smoking is silly. Smoking does far more harm than good, and the rational choice is not to even start.
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


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Quote:
The Ecstatic said: It might be a shortsighted answer but that doesn't make it false.
It wasn't even my position. Enlil strawmanned me from the start and then pretended I was the one doing it.
It's not that oil causes global warming, it's that EXxon knew about it and covered it up. I don't think EXxon should be sued for selling oil anymore than Anheuser-Busch should be sued for drunk driving accidents.
Now if Anheuser-Busch started making claims that drinking doesn't increase the risks of car accidents I think in that case they certainly are endangering the public and in that case should be liable.
Quote:
Enlil said: The reality is that burning fossil fuel does far more good than harm, and the rational choice is to burn as much as possible. This is why a comparison to smoking is silly. Smoking does far more harm than good, and the rational choice is not to even start.
I'll admit that fossil fuels have helped us and that burning them was the rational choice and possibly still is the rational choice. I don't agree that it will always be the rational choice and I think we've possibly already hit that point.
Maybe smoking was a poor example, but to reflect back on beer for a moment. Drinking beer instead of water was the rational choice for awhile. That doesn't make it still the rational choice today.
Anyway I'm curious how you think the world is going to look in thirty years or a hundred. Do you think we'll just wreck this planet and move to a new one? Develop the technology to remove all the carbon from the air? Live in bubbles with controlled environments?
My outlook is obviously more bleak. And hence my disagreement that burning all the fossil fuels until they're gone is rational.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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Stonehenge
Alt Center

Registered: 06/20/04
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Are you trying to tell us that only exxon knew about gw and kept it a secret from the rest of us? That seems to be your "argument" which is ridiculous. It was long known, much debated and there was no need for exxon to "inform" the public about what was already being discussed.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: Stonehenge]
#22439464 - 10/27/15 09:46 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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If that's the case why does 50% of the country still think global warming is a myth? Why are we still trying to convince people when EXxon's own research showed in the 70s that man made climate change was real? Why has EXxon been covering this up if it's rational to burn every drop anyway?
The tobacco industry did this same shit. Downplaying the risks of their product. The DOJ sued them for it. I think we should sue EXxon and put the money towards clean energy programs.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
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Last seen: 50 minutes, 46 seconds
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Quote:
paperbackwriter said: If that's the case why does 50% of the country still think global warming is a myth? Why are we still trying to convince people when EXxon's own research showed in the 70s that man made climate change was real? Why has EXxon been covering this up if it's rational to burn every drop anyway?
The tobacco industry did this same shit. Downplaying the risks of their product. The DOJ sued them for it. I think we should sue EXxon and put the money towards clean energy programs.
The DOJ should sue, but they won't.
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hostileuniverse
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You keep leaving out the "man made" part when you mention global warming, it's a fact that the climate changes, humans have minimal impact on that
Man made climate change is a myth
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micro
bunbun has a gungun



Registered: 05/09/03
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Loc: Brick City
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Quote:
paperbackwriter said: If that's the case why does 50% of the country still think global warming is a myth?
because, people.
Quote:
hostileuniverse said: You keep leaving out the "man made" part when you mention global warming, it's a fact that the climate changes, humans have minimal impact on that
Man made climate change is a myth
we accidentally blew a damn hole in the ozone layer 
not a huge impact on weather patterns but if anything, it shows we are capable
a massive feat such as that and we never even intended for it to happen
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Stonehenge
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I think humans have contributed greatly but there is a lot of natural and semi-natural things going on. Moon posted some info that indicates no matter what we do gw will get a lot worse. So giving up your car and riding a bike may do nothing after all. I'm more concerned about air and water pollution.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


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Quote:
hostileuniverse said: You keep leaving out the "man made" part when you mention global warming, it's a fact that the climate changes, humans have minimal impact on that
Man made climate change is a myth
That's propaganda. And this attitude is exactly what I'm talking about. It's not a myth. The idea that it's a myth is coming from Koch and EXxon think tanks.
Quote:
"In the first place, there is general scientific agreement that the most likely manner in which mankind is influencing the global climate is through carbon dioxide release from the burning of fossil fuels," Black told Exxon's Management Committee, according to a written version he recorded later.
It was July 1977 when Exxon's leaders received this blunt assessment, well before most of the world had heard of the looming climate crisis.
I agree Stoney, giving up your car and riding your bike isn't going to help. What would have helped thirty years ago is if we had started looking at reducing carbon emissions then. There's still the question of just 'how fucked' and if we can do anything to prevent it from being 'totally fucked'.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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micro
bunbun has a gungun



Registered: 05/09/03
Posts: 7,532
Loc: Brick City
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: Stonehenge]
#22439790 - 10/27/15 11:20 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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I thought they changed the name from global warming to climate change? xD
That was my main contention before, since there were many legitimate competing views.
For example, greenhouse gases like co2 and even h2O accumulating would cause an increase in temperature as well as humidity. This temperature increase will lead to even more h20(g) in the atmosphere. This should result in thicker and more abundant cloud formations, blocking the sun and could cause a cooling effect, instead.
The truth is, they just don't know wth is going on quite yet.
Quote:
Cloud Climatology: How Clouds Might Change with Global Warming
Although simple relations may hold between climatic conditions and the radiative properties of certain kinds of cloud, predicting how the global distribution of various kinds of clouds would change with global warming is complicated by their interaction with regional wind systems. Consider the roles of clouds in seasonal climatic change. In the midlatitudes, winter brings a substantial decline in solar heating, yet the corresponding drop in air temperature near the surface is between 70 and 80 percent less than what the decline in solar heating would seem to imply. More abundant and thicker winter clouds, with slightly higher tops, trap heat better.
In the tropics, despite significantly greater cloud cover in the rainy season, there is only a small seasonal variation in surface temperature. In part the variation is small because the effects of tropical clouds on thermal and solar radiation nearly cancel one another, but even more important is the controlling influence of heat transports by atmospheric winds.
The quest for more data about clouds and climate continues in parallel with the refinement of climate models. It is a slow-going process: each new piece of information must be incorporated throughout. With certain findings the models themselves may have to be reformulated. But the result should be an increasingly precise understanding of how sensitive the clouds are in response to changes in external forces and what effect those changes would have on global warming. One must hope that the model building and data collection activities will lead to an understanding of climatic change before that change comes to pass.
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Stonehenge
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That's true, pbw, but even if usa had imposed strict emissions laws, the rest of the world would have kept on the same way they were going so our efforts would have done little. Now it may be too late unless they come up with a scientific miracle.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
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Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Quote:
paperbackwriter said:
Anyway I'm curious how you think the world is going to look in thirty years or a hundred. Do you think we'll just wreck this planet and move to a new one? Develop the technology to remove all the carbon from the air? Live in bubbles with controlled environments?
There will be a mass depopulation event or series of events leaving humans to rebuild.
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: Enlil]
#22440043 - 10/27/15 12:37 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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That's how I see it too. I'm not sure that we'll survive to rebuild though.
I'm curious how you think using every drop of oil is still reasonable. Shouldn't we try to limit the effects of global warming as much as possible so we have the best chance of survival?
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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