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Invisibleburgerbrain
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: Enlil]
    #22294497 - 09/26/15 04:32 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

"Because capitalism and socialism are defined by who controls the means of production...not the offering of services."-Enlil

So, according to you, the Government could take over every SERVICE in the nation and that just wouldn't be socialism at all. If they take over the production of a good, that would be Socialism! Good logic there, statist.

socialism
noun so·cial·ism \ˈsō-shə-ˌli-zəm\

: a way of organizing a society in which major industries are owned and controlled by the government rather than by individual people and companies





Arguing semantics is not meaningful discussion, so why do you waste time?

Let's get to the point.

Do you agree that our current school system is not very good when it comes to results?

What are some of your solutions to fix the current school system?

Why are you voting for Bernie and not Trump?


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Offlineqman
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22294552 - 09/26/15 04:46 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

"Because capitalism and socialism are defined by who controls the means of production...not the offering of services."-Enlil

So, according to you, the Government could take over every SERVICE in the nation and that just wouldn't be socialism at all. If they take over the production of a good, that would be Socialism! Good logic there, statist.

socialism
noun so·cial·ism \ˈsō-shə-ˌli-zəm\

: a way of organizing a society in which major industries are owned and controlled by the government rather than by individual people and companies





Arguing semantics is not meaningful discussion, so why do you waste time?

Let's get to the point.

Do you agree that our current school system is not very good when it comes to results?

What are some of your solutions to fix the current school system?

Why are you voting for Bernie and not Trump?




There's plenty of very good public school systems, the problem lies with the students and the parents of those students, there's no fix for cultures that don't prioritize education.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22294557 - 09/26/15 04:47 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

The public school system sucks balls.  Not a single person in this thread would disagree, from the furthest left to the furthest right.  That "point" isn't a point at all. 

Fixing the school system is a complicated issue.  Free-market privatization won't fix it.  Vouchers won't fix it.  De-unionization would definitely help, but not fix it.  The only way schools will be effective is with a cooperative effort including parents, teachers, and administration.

I'm not voting for Bernie or Trump, and neither will be President anyway.


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #22294562 - 09/26/15 04:48 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Look who uses the word "honest". I haven't seen an honest argument out of enlil yet. He is obviously still butthurt from the last time I pointed that out. Nit picking, splitting hairs, and using tortured semantics is not honest debate.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Invisibleburgerbrain
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: qman]
    #22294646 - 09/26/15 05:10 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

"Because capitalism and socialism are defined by who controls the means of production...not the offering of services."-Enlil

So, according to you, the Government could take over every SERVICE in the nation and that just wouldn't be socialism at all. If they take over the production of a good, that would be Socialism! Good logic there, statist.

socialism
noun so·cial·ism \ˈsō-shə-ˌli-zəm\

: a way of organizing a society in which major industries are owned and controlled by the government rather than by individual people and companies





Arguing semantics is not meaningful discussion, so why do you waste time?

Let's get to the point.

Do you agree that our current school system is not very good when it comes to results?

What are some of your solutions to fix the current school system?

Why are you voting for Bernie and not Trump?




There's plenty of very good public school systems, the problem lies with the students and the parents of those students, there's no fix for cultures that don't prioritize education.





We prioritize education enough, the problem is with the Socialist school system-We waste money on administration and other gov-related bureaucratic bullshit when the real goal should be to educate children-the goal if the School system was privatized. We spend more money per student than any other country but we get almost the worst results. The reason other countries are doing better is because they are moving to a voucher system or a more privatized system.



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Invisibleburgerbrain
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22294677 - 09/26/15 05:18 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Look who uses the word "honest". I haven't seen an honest argument out of enlil yet. He is obviously still butthurt from the last time I pointed that out. Nit picking, splitting hairs, and using tortured semantics is not honest debate.




I'm beginning to think that you're correct Stonehenge.

Look at the blame he has for all parents. Other countries have parents & teachers issues but at the same time are producing great results and with less money (mainly due to more privatization and voucher systems), see this infographic:



Notice how Enlil automatically says vouchers and privatization won't work- Where's the link? Missing again

The Case for School Vouchers


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Offlineqman
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22294692 - 09/26/15 05:19 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

"Because capitalism and socialism are defined by who controls the means of production...not the offering of services."-Enlil

So, according to you, the Government could take over every SERVICE in the nation and that just wouldn't be socialism at all. If they take over the production of a good, that would be Socialism! Good logic there, statist.

socialism
noun so·cial·ism \ˈsō-shə-ˌli-zəm\

: a way of organizing a society in which major industries are owned and controlled by the government rather than by individual people and companies





Arguing semantics is not meaningful discussion, so why do you waste time?

Let's get to the point.

Do you agree that our current school system is not very good when it comes to results?

What are some of your solutions to fix the current school system?

Why are you voting for Bernie and not Trump?




There's plenty of very good public school systems, the problem lies with the students and the parents of those students, there's no fix for cultures that don't prioritize education.





We prioritize education enough, the problem is with the Socialist school system-We waste money on administration and other gov-related bureaucratic bullshit when the real goal should be to educate children-the goal if the School system was privatized. We spend more money per student than any other country but we get almost the worst results. The reason other countries are doing better is because they are moving to a voucher system or a more privatized system.






I should have said there's too many subcultures in the US that don't prioritize education, as a result it skews the statistical results.

The public schools in upper middle class white suburbia function just fine and even outperform many of the good private schools.


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22294706 - 09/26/15 05:22 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
The reason other countries are doing better is because they are moving to a voucher system or a more privatized system.






This isn't true.  As Enlil pointed out fixing the school system is a complicated issue.

Finland, one of the most socialist countries on earth currently, and it's scandinavian cousins, consistently rank the highest.  Your graph even shows this.  Their approach is based on not working the kids to death.  They're not privately owned.

Japan takes the opposite approach.  Private vouchers and working the kids to death.  They come in right behind scandinavian countries.  They also are literally working themselves to death in later life so while their approach is fairly successful in the short term it doesn't look healthy in the long term.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


Edited by paperbackwriter (09/26/15 05:35 PM)


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22294717 - 09/26/15 05:25 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Every single country on your chart has publicly funded educational systems.  How does that support an argument for privatization and vouchers as being the answer?


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Invisibleburgerbrain
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22294731 - 09/26/15 05:29 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Quote:

burgerbrain said:
The reason other countries are doing better is because they are moving to a voucher system or a more privatized system.






This isn't true.  As Enlil pointed out fixing the school system is a complicated issue.

Finland, one of the most socialist countries on earth currently, and it's scandinavian cousins, consistently rank the highest.  Your graph even shows this.  There approach is based on not working the kids to death.  They're not privately owned.

Japan takes the opposite approach.  Private vouchers and working the kids to death.  They come in right behind scandinavian countries.  They also are literally working themselves to death in later life so while their approach is fairly successful in the short term it doesn't look healthy in the long term.




So Finland is the deviation from the rule, ok, oh yeah and they let the students CHOOSE their school path, unlike USA's socialist school system.


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Invisibleburgerbrain
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: Enlil]
    #22294738 - 09/26/15 05:31 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Every single country on your chart has publicly funded educational systems.  How does that support an argument for privatization and vouchers as being the answer?




I guess you didn't know that voucher systems are still publicly funded but allow the students more free-market choice.

Want to see the graph where Private schooled kids get higher test scores than public schooled kids or are you willing to concede this one?


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22294745 - 09/26/15 05:32 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Private school kids get higher test scores, sure.  They have parents that give a shit and actively take a role in their children's education.  That makes a huge difference. 

Parents who emphasize education have children who do well in school. Parents who don't often have children who do poorly.


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Offlineqman
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22294760 - 09/26/15 05:35 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

There are already many charter schools that they use in urban communities, they are still huge failures, those communities don't prioritize education.


Edited by qman (09/26/15 05:36 PM)


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Invisibleburgerbrain
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: Enlil]
    #22294765 - 09/26/15 05:36 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Private school kids get higher test scores, sure.  They have parents that give a shit and actively take a role in their children's education.  That makes a huge difference. 

Parents who emphasize education have children who do well in school. Parents who don't often have children who do poorly.





yeah the USA is the only one with that problem! LOL


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22294780 - 09/26/15 05:40 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Quote:

burgerbrain said:
The reason other countries are doing better is because they are moving to a voucher system or a more privatized system.






This isn't true.  As Enlil pointed out fixing the school system is a complicated issue.

Finland, one of the most socialist countries on earth currently, and it's scandinavian cousins, consistently rank the highest.  Your graph even shows this.  There approach is based on not working the kids to death.  They're not privately owned.

Japan takes the opposite approach.  Private vouchers and working the kids to death.  They come in right behind scandinavian countries.  They also are literally working themselves to death in later life so while their approach is fairly successful in the short term it doesn't look healthy in the long term.




So Finland is the deviation from the rule, ok, oh yeah and they let the students CHOOSE their school path, unlike USA's socialist school system.




This isn't what I said.  When several countries are all working actively to make school more fun and enjoyable for kids and their test scores are all the best in the world I don't see how that's deviation, that's setting a precedent.

And again you use the word socialist wrong.  I suggest you stop using it until you understand what it means.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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Invisibleburgerbrain
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: qman]
    #22294797 - 09/26/15 05:43 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
There are already many charter schools that they use in urban communities, they are still huge failures, those communities don't prioritize education.




On average, private schools outperform public schools and cost less money per student..

Yeah guess private schools are horrible lol





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Offlineqman
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22294802 - 09/26/15 05:43 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Many of the high schools in the US now have to operate like prisons, education takes a back seat to safety.



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Offlineqman
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22294817 - 09/26/15 05:46 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

qman said:
There are already many charter schools that they use in urban communities, they are still huge failures, those communities don't prioritize education.




On average, private schools outperform public schools and cost less money per student..

Yeah guess private schools are horrible lol








Depends on the students that attend those private schools, why are the charter schools complete failures?  The students come from dysfunctional cultures.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22294818 - 09/26/15 05:47 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
yeah the USA is the only one with that problem! LOL



That's ridiculous.  There are plenty of places in this world where education is not emphasized, and the results are obvious.  If you think Somalia has a better education system, you're wrong.

It does crack me up, however, that your complaint about our education system is that it is socialist, yet you claim that other nations, some actually socialist, have better education.


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Invisibleburgerbrain
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: Enlil]
    #22294846 - 09/26/15 05:53 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Maybe you should learn something before attacking people on the internet.

Stupid in America
Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

burgerbrain said:
yeah the USA is the only one with that problem! LOL



That's ridiculous.  There are plenty of places in this world where education is not emphasized, and the results are obvious.  If you think Somalia has a better education system, you're wrong.

It does crack me up, however, that your complaint about our education system is that it is socialist, yet you claim that other nations, some actually socialist, have better education.





Most Socialist Education systems are horrible, but all the graphs in the world won't convince you statists.


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