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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: luvdemshrooms] * 2
    #22231780 - 09/13/15 01:29 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

You have a valid point, but you have to admit that Stonehenge is an extreme example.  Anything he disagrees with is labeled "left wing" regardless of whether it actually is a liberal, conservative, or moderate position.


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OfflinePsilosopherr
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: Count of Sabugosa] * 1
    #22211311 - 09/09/15 09:13 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

I think he's just a celebrity of sorts pretending to run for president to get a ton of attention.

People can't stop talking about it.


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Invisibleairclay
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: Stonehenge] * 1
    #22231290 - 09/13/15 11:41 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

I like how in this forum the world is exactly the way Stonehenge feels and if not you're just wrong and stupid

Was reading this earlier, p good comparison and analysis of the trump phenom

http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/09/11/is-trump-the-american-berlusconi/

Quote:

Is Trump the American Berlusconi? -


For a long time Italy’s Silvio Berlusconi appeared as an impenetrable phenomenon to foreign observers. He was routinely dismissed as an exotic anomaly tied to the idiosyncrasies of Italian political culture.

Today, he might not seem so unfamiliar. There are striking analogies between Italy’s former prime minister and the current front-runner in the Republican presidential nominee race — and not just that both are flamboyant billionaires and former entertainers running for office on anti-establishment platforms.

Although Berlusconi’s political fortunes now appear to be on the wane, looking back at reasons for his erstwhile success might shed light on the current fascination with Donald Trump’s US presidential bid.

They share a flaunted machismo and political incorrectness. This is part of a well-calculated electoral strategy. What Berlusconi had already understood before Trump is that saying outrageous things gets you free media coverage and forces others to engage with what you are saying. So you get to set the terms of the political debate, while shifting its center of gravity in your favor. At the same time, Berlusconi and Trump’s political incorrectness targets a specific electoral group — predominantly blue-collar white males who feel threatened by globalization, multiculturalism and women’s rights. There is an element of revanchism in their discourse, which allows them to attract conservative votes while assuming an air of radicalism.

Berlusconi’s popularity in Italy was also due to his capacity to transform class antagonisms into cultural issues, capturing large swathes of the working-class vote. The fact that he was a billionaire never seemed to distance him from ordinary people. On the contrary, it tapped into their aspirations. Even more importantly, the fact that he had brought commercial television to Italy implied an association with popular culture that set him in opposition to the country’s traditionally left-leaning cultural elites. In the same way, Trump’s anti-establishment rhetoric appeals to working-class voters who resent what they perceive as the patronizing attitude of ‘liberal elites’. This suggests the old class antagonism is now translated into a new cultural division which plays out in terms of political style rather than income.

Finally, Berlusconi’s electoral success depended on his alliance with the far-right League of the North, a xenophobic party whose message pivoted almost entirely around the association between immigration and crime. The foundation of this alliance was the convergence of interests between Berlusconi’s predominantly national business empire and the economic protectionism implied in the League of the North’s anti-immigrant stance. In the US, this alliance between business interests and anti-immigration rhetoric had not been as prominent, largely because big business saw itself as wedded to globalization. Trump, on the other hand, seems to have understood that it may be in the interest of small to medium business owners to take a stand against immigration, because it ensures that a large portion of incoming labor is illegal and therefore in a weaker bargaining position. De-linking immigration from economics and re-framing it as a question of crime and security is the best way of pulling this off.

To be sure, there are also some important differences between Trump and Berlusconi. These too may help to shed light on some aspects of the ongoing Republican primary. When Berlusconi sought to present himself as a novelty in Italian politics, there was an element of truth to his rhetoric. Both his political style and his capacity to attract business and working class votes were fundamentally disruptive of the party system that had dominated Italian politics since the end of the Second World War. Trump, on the other hand, must be situated in the context of a longer trajectory in the way in which the Republican Party has run its electoral campaigns over the past decade and a half. From George W. Bush’s early attempts to present himself as an ‘ordinary American’ to Sarah Palin’s nomination as vice-presidential candidate and the subsequent attempt by the party’s leadership to co-opt the Tea-Party movement, the Republican Party has long been toying with anti-establishment populism as an electoral weapon.

Whether they will be able to rein in the forces they have conjured up remains to be seen — but don’t forget that Berlusconi was initially dismissed as wholly unelectable. His political momentum lasted more than 20 years.




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OfflineCount of Sabugosa
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: luvdemshrooms] * 1
    #22231996 - 09/13/15 02:14 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

In Latin America this is called a duocracy, when there are only two parties with full monopoly over the political game. However, when you look at Brazil's history of infinite parties, you see they stop meaning anything as well.

It is true that the right and mature attitude would be to vote in a person, and not in a party. But parties have interests and constituents. Just as Trump will NOT do most of the stuff he says he can (he just can't), no one tied to any of those parties would run against the majority interest within the party's sphere of influence.

If we are tired of the game, we should not stop playing it. We should debate how to change the rules and apply the debate to our real political attitudes.


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In Hebrew, the words "wine" and "secret" hold the same numerologic value. When wine comes in, secrets spill out. Do you think the person who said that knew mushrooms? When mushrooms come in... Is there anything beyond a secret?



Edited by Count of Sabugosa (09/13/15 03:01 PM)


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OfflineCount of Sabugosa
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: Bigbadwooof] * 1
    #22235464 - 09/14/15 06:00 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof

I don't identify as a Democrat. I espouse left-wing philosophy, generally. There are a few things that I don't agree with 'liberals' on also.

However, I don't find the middle to be the 'high ground', though I see so many centrists proclaim that it is, with the same pretentiousness that a hard right conservative proclaims they hold the high ground. Regardless of which superiority complex afflicts you, it doesn't make you special. Its good to have values that you have developed of your own accord, instead of towing someone else's line. That doesn't denigrate the integrity or validity of other political and philosophical persuasions that many have arrived at via the same process.

As far as income equalling cock size, I fully agree with you, it is a strange measure. Donald Trump seems to start every speech with a rant about how rich he is. It is disgusting. If Elon Musk did it, I would find it a more legitimate talking point, but still repulsive.





:bow2:

------------

Update: Yesterday I went to eat with some friends of mine, and 70% were Trump fans. One of them said he knew Trump would "kill ISIS" (did he think ISIS is the name of a lone avenging woman?) and "build that wall and make them Mexicans pay for it."

The staunchest supporters said the following statements, broadly paraphrased:

"That Obama Monkey"

"Trump has balls"

"All illegal aliens are either criminals or taking jobs away from Americans (pay attention to the "all" part)"

"The children benefited by the Dream Act will ALL go back to their countries of origin (which is absurd, because I know the root of the movement and these guys are not leaving America any time soon)"

"George Bush was the best president we have ever had"

And all of those amazing political arguments that make your jaw drop to the floor and wish to die on the spot (the jaw).

I think this is a clear symptom, albeit I cannot generalize their opinions and apply them to others' opinions. But it is the gist I have gotten so far.


Edited by Count of Sabugosa (09/15/15 05:22 AM)


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: luvdemshrooms] * 1
    #22268178 - 09/21/15 06:29 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
And why is that? It is a matter of fact that a single payer system is the most functional and affordable system a we could have.




The feds need to stay out of a great many things, healthcare mandates/subsidies among them.




No they don't.


Quote:

Quote:

The government actually has things that have to get done, like approving the budget for instance. In the midst of their bickering and grandstanding they shut down the fucking government.




Congress has shown repeatedly they have no self control. I'd have fewer issues with them if they stuck to the basics.




I'm not sure what you're referring to by 'self-control'. Like attaching aggressive partison legislation to a budget bill and then blaming the president for shutting the government down? Or inviting Netanyahu for a visit to congress, without consulting with the president? That's not all of government. That is beligerant Republicans. There is no equivolency here. We can elect more mature politicians.

Quote:

Quote:

Obama was hardly partisan lmao!




Really?  :lmafo:




Really! Lmao


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Edited by Bigbadwooof (09/21/15 06:32 AM)


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #22294562 - 09/26/15 04:48 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Look who uses the word "honest". I haven't seen an honest argument out of enlil yet. He is obviously still butthurt from the last time I pointed that out. Nit picking, splitting hairs, and using tortured semantics is not honest debate.


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“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: Bigbadwooof] * 1
    #22309098 - 09/29/15 03:40 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
We finally agree on something, stoney, but those students aren't born like that.  They learn that from their shitty parents and/or grandparents.



They also learn it from the commie socialist teachers who award prizes for participation.  Are you really that uninformed about the nature of education today and that it is completeky controlled by left wing whackjobs?




The reason the school system is 'controlled by left-wing whackjobs' is because as people get educated they move away from right-wing garbage.

Look at the right wingers around here. Honestly, take a good look. These are not serious people, or at least people to take seriously. Not the sort anyone wants teaching children. Qman and you are the only two who actually know how to have a fairly intelligent discussion, that I can think of.

Right-wing politics aren't even a bad thing in my mind (though I disagree with most of it). However, they have devolved into the party of idiot, gun toting, religious nutcases who salute figures like Michelle Bachman, Sarah Palin, and fucking Glenn Beck/Alex Jones.




Ummmm no.  Schools and colleges weren't dominated by left wing idiots until the hippie losers from my generation started to take it over and teacher unions became powerful.  That's why I got an education and you didn't


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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: Count of Sabugosa] * 1
    #22317039 - 10/01/15 12:39 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

royque1980 said:
This is once again going back to importance of party fidelity. The right-wing went so overboard with incompetent leading figures that it produced a fungus, Trump, who is now poisoning the spectacle, albeit in a way, in a very subtle way - yeah, I know, right, Trump associated with subtlety - the stage in which the electoral side of politics takes place.

My analogy for Trump in contrast to other leading figures, such as Bush or Kasich, is that you can always count on the political-game to be dishonest, and you cannot count with Trump's honesty. Instead on betting on the impossible, it seems interesting to try to work with the possible forcing the dishonesty to favor collective interests more than whining like babies (as Democrats did when Bush was president).




Speaking of parties who produced fungus, look at that fungus covered turd that the d's floated into office.  Obama, what a fucking joke. 

At least trump is telling it like it is--the establisment sucks donkey balls and they are pathetic and stupid.  He's absolutely right about that, though I find him to be a blowhard.


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #22328382 - 10/03/15 01:46 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
http://monthlyreview.org/2009/05/01/why-socialism/




What a bunch of liberal tripe...

One quote

"Why are you opposed to the extinction of the human race?"

So that's the answer, huh, libs, just exterminate us like cockroaches? Wait, who else was for mass extermination...?

Google "complete lives system" which all socialistic health care is based on...


--------------------
http://www.countdowntotrump.com





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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: burgerbrain] * 1
    #22329552 - 10/03/15 05:53 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
I see you must resort to personal attacks, and can't answer any questions. Poor kid.





I noticed that some time ago.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: burgerbrain] * 1
    #22333205 - 10/04/15 03:12 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

It appears that you can't handle a few Bernie memes. I feel sorry for you.

Also I noticed you couldn't refute any of the memes so you cried and gave me a 0.




thats what liberals do, just don't ever post political shit on FB, trust me on this one, a bunch of libs ganged up on me years ago, contacted my employer and tried to get me fired, threatened them with calling the ACLU and the local media... and no, it didn't work, luckily my employers agree with me politically...

so yeah, if you expose them, they will strike with whatever weapons they have... they some dirty fuckers, thats for sure...

they are much more interested in silencing dissent, rather than debating it, hence the zeros, net neutrality, and the fairness doctrine... they give them such inoccuous names, when the reality is they are weapons to use to silent their opponents... like the "affordable" care act, they know how to sell shit, thats for sure...


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http://www.countdowntotrump.com





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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: paperbackwriter] * 1
    #22333236 - 10/04/15 03:20 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
I just don't like trolling on the forums.  I like talking to people and would like to bring up the quality of posts here.  So when someone literally spams 6 posts in a thread just to piss other people off yes, I give them a zero and report them.

If he wanted to make a funny political memes thread so we could all share joke memes and give each other a hard time I would have had no problem with it.

Instead he decided to shit up someone else's thread and waste everyone's time.




didn't waste my time, I enjoyed them, I thought they were relevant to the topic, even saved a couple of them...


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: burgerbrain] * 1
    #22333246 - 10/04/15 03:24 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

It appears that you can't handle a few Bernie memes. I feel sorry for you.

Also I noticed you couldn't refute any of the memes so you cried and gave me a 0.




thats what liberals do, just don't ever post political shit on FB, trust me on this one, a bunch of libs ganged up on me years ago, contacted my employer and tried to get me fired, threatened them with calling the ACLU and the local media... and no, it didn't work, luckily my employers agree with me politically...

so yeah, if you expose them, they will strike with whatever weapons they have... they some dirty fuckers, thats for sure...




Sounds like a nightmare. Fucking libtards probably even used fraud in an attempt to get you fired. I bet they called the law, too. Sick fuckers, advocating socialism and censoring free speech




yeah, it was just weird, getting texts from my boss asking me what the hell I was doing, lol never had no issues though, and yeah, instead of debating, they tried to silence me, just look at how they have tried to silence Rush Limbaugh, they gang up, calling his sponsors, telling them about boycotts to their products, its all over twitter,

this truly is a war for the hearts and minds of freedom loving americans...


--------------------
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: hostileuniverse] * 1
    #22343215 - 10/06/15 10:18 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

royque1980 said:
Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Ideas get better sometimes but good ideas are classics




Like slavery?

Quote:

you don't throw them out in favor of some commie manifesto.




Some static here, can't hear it good.

Quote:

Good ideas like working hard




"Arbeit macht frei"

Quote:

pay as you go




You saying Im athiefin'?

Quote:

don't over extend yourself




Such as what? Trillions in "necessary" weaponry and defense?

Quote:

etc.


my favorite

Quote:

The new left thinks everyone can go on welfare and the rich will pay for it all. That worked great in Russia, didn't it? Also great in cuba, etc.




About that, talk to my agent, you should write a book about the dystopia that goes around inside your mind. It would be a classic. Classic. Get it? :carlinorgasm:




You do realize that Europe has an advantage knowing the US will protect them, allowing them to spend more on thier welfare, for a time, but even that won't save them, socialism bankrupts every country it infects...




"Europe has an advantage knowing the US will protect them, allowing them to spend more on their welfare (state)"

This is very true and a fact that most liberals like to throw out the window when calculating the cost of social programs. When national security is on the cheap, everything else is appears affordable.


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: qman] * 1
    #22346812 - 10/07/15 06:29 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

>"the House Negro as having a better life than the field Negro, and thus being unwilling to leave the plantation and potentially more LIKELY TO SUPPORT EXISTING POWER STRUCTURES"

Sound like anyone you know?  :smilingpuppy:

Obumble threw the rest of the negroes under the bus and made them like it. The tpp, ttip, and the rest of the alphabet crap is a big stab in the back for the people who elected him. He kept it secret for a reason. It may take us 20 years to recover from the obumble fiascos.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: Stonehenge] * 1
    #22383686 - 10/15/15 02:17 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
The evil powers that be, the big shots behind the scenes, are furiously working to get the election back on track so that only sold out whores are on both sides so it makes no difference who you pick. They want it to be bush vs Clinton, the public wants new faces.




They sure do want Bush vs Clinton, but they're not going to get it! Conservative America has been foaming at the mouth for a decade now, and liberal America is finally starting to get roused up also. The American political realm is catching fire.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: qman] * 1
    #22476656 - 11/04/15 01:58 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

qman said:
"Trump IS 'big corporate people'"

He doesn't represent "corporate America", he has the luxury of criticizing them, no one else as that ability.

He can admitted to using lobbyists and political money for his own gain and then criticize it, no one else can talk about that part of the political corruption.

BTW, I think Bernie is already toast.




Bernie can and does talk about it all the time. Bernie is just as much 'toast' as Trump, last I checked. Last poll I saw had Carson beating Trump by 8 points, and given the number of GOP candidates, that is quite significant.




That was before the debate, either way those polls are bunk, most people don't even know who the fuck Carson is today. 

Bernie's voice on the subject is from a liberal lifetime politician, not a person who's been in the business world for the past 50 years, Trump's criticisms carry much more weight.




I suppose we'll have to agree to strongly disagree on that point. Trump's business practices are symbolic of everything that is wrong with America. Corrupting the political process, shittin on the little guy, destroying small businesses, etc. How does being the shadyist of businessmen qualify someone to handle political affairs in any way, shape, or form?


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: hostileuniverse] * 1
    #22479881 - 11/05/15 07:51 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Still has nothing to do with welfare.

I know you don't see it, but it's painfully obvious to anyone reading your posts that your anti-immigrant stance is just a thinly veiled racism.  I don't expect to have a rational conversation with you about it because your underlying motives aren't rational. 

There is certainly a discussion to be had about race, immigration and the problems associated with those issues, but that discussion becomes pointless when one of the people involved sees it as "us" vs "them".


--------------------
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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: The Trump Phenomenon [Re: qman] * 1
    #22480293 - 11/05/15 09:23 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Your child picks up much more up than just Spanish being around those children, lets face it, 99% of parents do NOT want their children in those types of school systems.




I can only assume that you're talking in code and riddles here because you know that if you said what you really meant, your true bias would show.


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