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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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It seems the Brits want to defend themselves.
    #2221125 - 01/05/04 07:04 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

What an OUTRAGEOUS concept.

How dare they!

But will the government listen? Or will they keep self defense a criminal offense?


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: It seems the Brits want to defend themselves. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2221193 - 01/05/04 07:35 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

is self defense a criminal offense or is owning
a firearm the crime?

I mean...you're allowed to defend yourself in
the UK, right?


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InvisibleEdame
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Re: It seems the Brits want to defend themselves. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2221207 - 01/05/04 07:43 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Self-defence isn't a criminal offence, but shooting someone is. We have a concept over here called 'proportionate force'. The UK is not the US, we're not gun-crazy over here, we have no 2nd amendment, and a lot of people have no problem with this (myself included).

More info on the political reaction here.

More than 26,000 votes were registered by listeners taking part in the poll and MP Stephen Pound originally pledged to champion the winning bill.

He would have had to persuade the 20 MPs who have been chosen to put forward private member's bills to take up the poll winner's suggestion.

But after he heard the result, the Labour politician appeared to withdraw his support, arguing: "This bill is unworkable," as it "endorses the slaughter of 16-year-old kids".

His reaction prompted the deputy prime minister to tell Today: "That blew up in your face, didn't it?"

Mr Prescott said it was important for householders to express their views on potential legislation but this proposal amounted to "vigilante law".
...
"I don't think for a moment this will take off in Parliament - I mean, to give somebody the right just to shoot somebody...

"You can't ignore people's concerns about security in the home... but if you are then going to give the right to somebody to pick up a gun because they have seen somebody in the house and then shoot them, then I'm afraid that's the kind of vigilante law that I don't think Parliament would agree to."
...
But leading criminal barrister John Cooper warned that the idea was dangerously flawed.

He said: "The law as it stands at the moment, despite its critics, is functioning. If you are in your house and you are attacked by someone or threatened by someone, you can use proportionate force.

"We do not live in the wild west. This legislation that is proposed effectively may well turn us into that."


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The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


Edited by Edame (01/05/04 07:44 PM)


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 33,808
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Re: It seems the Brits want to defend themselves. [Re: Edame]
    #2221218 - 01/05/04 07:48 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

"The 'Prevention of Crime Act, 1953' banned the carrying of 'offensive weapons' "without lawful authority or reasonable excuse" and made it legally 'unsafe' to carry or use any object for self-defence, even in the home, because it could be construed as an 'offensive weapon'.

The Criminal Law Act, 1967 branded any article carried for self-defence as an 'offensive weapon' intended to cause harm. This Act introduced the concept of 'reasonable force' into the law."

Edit: Way to keep women and children safe. I'm sure it must be very comforting to them as they are being raped or beaten to know that at least THEY haven't commited a crime.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Edited by luvdemshrooms (01/05/04 07:51 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: It seems the Brits want to defend themselves. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2221229 - 01/05/04 07:51 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

all weapons are banned in the UK?


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 33,808
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Re: It seems the Brits want to defend themselves. [Re: ]
    #2221241 - 01/05/04 07:55 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I guess it would be difficult to ban knives, but it sounds as if you can't carry one. Not being from the UK I'd love tohear more details from someone who lives there.

Well, anyone who's honest anyway.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: It seems the Brits want to defend themselves. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2221362 - 01/05/04 08:45 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Yawn.


Apparently American politics is more interesting than the politics of other countries because everybody has an opinion about American politics, but for some reason I find other countries legislative process highly uninteresting.


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InvisibleEdame
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Re: It seems the Brits want to defend themselves. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2222197 - 01/06/04 03:47 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Every case is judged by it's particular circumstances, so it's not as cut and dry as not being able to use any kind of weapon whatsoever. I think blades over 3 inches are illegal to carry in public.

From a UK law site:

Quote:

Self defence - how far can you go?

Recently Norfolk farmer Tony Martin hit the headlines when he was jailed for the murder of a 16 year old burglar .Martin was sentenced to life imprisonment and many people were outraged. Cases like this, whilst not common, do arouse debate on what people should reasonably be allowed to do in order to defend themselves and opinion is varied. So what does the law permit you to do to defend yourself and your property?

When considering what constitutes the act of self-defence, the legal precedent which is most frequently referred to is a Privy Council decision dating back to 1971. The judgement in this case states: "it is both good law and good sense that a man who is attacked may defend himself. It is both good law and common sense that he may do, but only do, what is reasonably necessary."

However, the key phrase in the judgement is determining "what is reasonably necessary". This is a difficult, if not impossible thing to state absolutely, as each case has to be judged individually, taking into account a different set of circumstances each time. What is 'reasonably necessary' in one situation may differ widely from what is reasonably necessary in another.

This is why when a person pleads self defence in court it is usually left to a jury of twelve ordinary men and women to decide whether or not the actions were taken in self defence. The jury would consider what the person being attacked genuinely believed was reasonable. The 1971 decision adds that "everything will depend on the particular facts and circumstance".

The right to protect oneself is also set out in the Criminal Law Act of 1967 bur again the Act states that: " A person may use such force as is reasonable in the circumstances" however judging what is reasonable in the 'heat of the moment' can be a difficult thing.

However, if you are attacked by a person and, rather than simply defending yourself against attack, actually pursue your attacker and use physica1 force in order to punish him or her, then you are likely to find yourself in court. Similarly, you could find yourself in court, as Tony Martin did, if a jury believes that you used an unreasonable level of force in defending yourself.

So if John Smith was at home in his sitting room and was suddenly confronted by a burglar, Mr Smith may defend himself and his property to the extent necessary to resist or expel the attacker. But if Mr Smith, on seeing an intruder enter his living room, sat down in his chair, pulled out a gun he kept under his seat (kept there in the event of a situation like this arising) and shot and killed the attacker, then a .jury could reasonably judge that Mr Smith had used unnecessary excessive force to defend himself and his property.

Degrees of Defensive Action

Legal experts, and the law, do recognise that if you're being attacked it is very hard to measure or assess your response in the heat of the moment. Neither would you be able to judge the outcome of your actions. That is why having your case considered by the ordinary men and women of a jury , who may be in a better position to empathise with your position, is the best way to reach a decision on whether or not reasonable force was used.

Malcolm Fowler, Chair of the Law Society's Criminal Law Committee, explains: "The problem with advising what is reasonable force is that the circumstances in every case are different. Clearly the law cannot allow a person who is hit on the head to immediately use a gun to shoot their attacker. However, cases like this are rare and in cases where an attacker or burglar is killed it is the decision of the ordinary men and women of a jury to consider the circumstances and judge whether or not the person was using 'reasonable force' in his or her own defence."




--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: It seems the Brits want to defend themselves. [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2222393 - 01/06/04 08:02 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Apparently American politics is more interesting than the politics of other countries because everybody has an opinion about American politics, but for some reason I find other countries legislative process highly uninteresting.




I think that says more about you than how interesting American politics is!


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: It seems the Brits want to defend themselves. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2222428 - 01/06/04 08:57 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Or will they keep self defense a criminal offense?

Self-defence isn't a criminal offence in the UK.

And you talk about honesty  :rolleyes:


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: It seems the Brits want to defend themselves. [Re: GazzBut]
    #2223187 - 01/06/04 03:09 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Then why doesn't anybody else give a shit about the UK either.

As far as I'm concerned, if they don't want guns, let em' not have guns. Why is eveybody so damned concerned about how many Americans have guns?

Seriously. Explain that to me. Why do foreigners give a shit whether we have a second ammendment or not.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: It seems the Brits want to defend themselves. [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2223247 - 01/06/04 03:29 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

You might actually have a point if all americans agreed with the gun laws in america.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: It seems the Brits want to defend themselves. [Re: GazzBut]
    #2223510 - 01/06/04 04:56 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Most Americans do agree with the gun laws here.

Unfortunately, they also agree with the drug laws.

What Americans want, Americans get. That includes dumb laws.


I don't personally own a gun. Frankly I don't really like guns, but I support the freedom to own one, (or as many as you want to).


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: It seems the Brits want to defend themselves. [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2223520 - 01/06/04 05:00 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Not sure you can divorce the 70 years of constant propaganda from the publics views on drugs tho. 100 years ago the public didn't give fuck one about drugs. You could go and buy heroin over the counter. I think the manipulation of public opinion is the thing that needs looking at. Who decided drugs should be demonised and why are the media so submissive to power that they obeyed?


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: It seems the Brits want to defend themselves. [Re: Xlea321]
    #2223531 - 01/06/04 05:06 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Fear sells.


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Invisiblecarbonhoots
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Re: It seems the Brits want to defend themselves. [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2224250 - 01/06/04 10:26 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

...But who's buying?


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  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES


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Invisiblecarbonhoots
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Re: It seems the Brits want to defend themselves. [Re: carbonhoots]
    #2224266 - 01/06/04 10:31 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)



--------------------
  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: It seems the Brits want to defend themselves. [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2225656 - 01/07/04 12:40 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

have you ever watched a parliamentary session on cspan.

that is some of the most entertaining political debate that I
have ever seen.

honestly.

it's quite entertaining to watch whigs and torries duke it out
with words.


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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: It seems the Brits want to defend themselves. [Re: afoaf]
    #2225839 - 01/07/04 01:43 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I wish our congresspersons would yell "Boo you suck." more.


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: It seems the Brits want to defend themselves. [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2225901 - 01/07/04 01:58 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

totally

that's essentially what they do during parliamentary
sessions (someone correct me if I'm wrong).

but of course, it's all in proper englishmen style.

harf harf grumble grumble well I say!


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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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