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InvisibleSclorch
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Artificial Desire
    #2220698 - 01/05/04 01:58 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

One of the pre-reqs for instituting Marxist Communism is artificial desire (correct me if I'm wrong).

Only heavily industrialized countries can create an artificial desire in its people. Since all communist countries, past and present, is chockful of abject poverty (read: the people are more concerned with scrounging up enough food to eat rather than the latest and greatest designer handbag), then is this yet another reason why Marx's version of Communism has not ever been fully realized?

[EDIT: Subject changed]


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Edited by Sclorch (01/05/04 11:57 PM)

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Marxism and Artificial Desire [Re: Sclorch]
    #2220792 - 01/05/04 02:34 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

What on earth is "artificial desire"?

And non-"communist" countries arn't full of abject poverty?

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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Marxism and Artificial Desire [Re: Sclorch]
    #2221190 - 01/05/04 05:33 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

This might be too academic...

Sorry.


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Anonymous

Re: Marxism and Artificial Desire [Re: Sclorch]
    #2221249 - 01/05/04 05:59 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

yeah... what's artificial desire?

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Offlinefalcon
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Re: Marxism and Artificial Desire [Re: ]
    #2221271 - 01/05/04 06:06 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

style?

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Anonymous

Re: Marxism and Artificial Desire [Re: falcon]
    #2221277 - 01/05/04 06:08 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

huh?

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InvisibleAutonomous
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Re: Marxism and Artificial Desire [Re: ]
    #2221286 - 01/05/04 06:11 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Perhaps he is referring to 'consumerism?'


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Offlinefalcon
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Re: Marxism and Artificial Desire [Re: ]
    #2221295 - 01/05/04 06:13 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

the value of an object exceeds its utility, in order to sell it you must create a desire for it.

Of course you can argue and rightly that style has utility

I'm ust guessing from context

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OnlineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Marxism and Artificial Desire [Re: falcon]
    #2221525 - 01/05/04 08:21 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Style has futility.




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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Marxism and Artificial Desire [Re: Sclorch]
    #2221586 - 01/05/04 08:47 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Okay, let me put this a different way...

If artificial desire was removed from our current system, would the economy be effected? How?


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InvisibleAutonomous
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Re: Marxism and Artificial Desire [Re: Sclorch]
    #2221600 - 01/05/04 08:53 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

How do you define 'artificial desire?' Do you mean desire for goods/services that are not essential for sustenance?


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Marxism and Artificial Desire [Re: Sclorch]
    #2221712 - 01/05/04 09:41 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)


Only heavily industrialized countries can create an artificial desire
in its people. Since all communist countries, past and present, is
chockful of abject poverty (read: the people are more concerned with
scrounging up enough food to eat rather than the latest and greatest
designer handbag), then is this yet another reason why Marx's version
of Communism has not ever been fully realized?


You are saying that communist systems suffer from low
productivity. Because there is such low productivity in communist
economies, there is little to go around. Because there are so few
resources to go around, the people worry more about the basic
essentials than unnecessary stuff.

Marx did not want it to be that way. He envisioned a well-oiled
machine magically making all of the things that people needed.
And, when everything was settled and peaceful and the population was
ready for it, governmental institutions would melt away and the
people would live in a cooperative utopia.

So, one of the necessary components for communism to reach its
final stage is that productivity must be high and it must meet
all of the people's needs and wants. This never happened in
a communist country.

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Marxism and Artificial Desire [Re: Sclorch]
    #2221726 - 01/05/04 09:47 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)


If artificial desire was removed from our current system, would the
economy be effected? How?


Hell yes it would be. Many people would instantly be put out of work
(The people who work in industries that do not deal with sustenance
related products). Our economic output would decline. The amount
of stuff and services we had at our disposal would shrink
considerably.

Anyway, it is not possible to remove artificial desire from our
"system". People want stuff. A lot of the stuff that they want is
stuff that they don't really need. I don't see how it would be
possible to make every single person renounce consumerism and
materialism.

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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Marxism and Artificial Desire [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2221842 - 01/05/04 10:46 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Okay then... you're the person I want to talk to.
This is a rather complex system and I want to change it.

The largest market that is almost completely dependent upon artificial desire is, arguably, the teenage girl. Would it be all that catastrophic if we slowly retarded the artificial desire from this demographic? I mean, MOST of the shit teenage girls buy isn't even made in the US (this means little job loss on the production level). So, we're talking about executives, managers, and retail employees having to find new jobs. I don't see how a slow reduction of these positions is going to hurt the market.

So, what I propose is a mandatory "smart consumer" class that encourages school-age kids to analyze their spending habits. It wouldn't eradicate the artificial desire, but it would reduce it... and it might, hopefully, counteract the manic consumption epidemic.


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InvisibleAutonomous
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Re: Marxism and Artificial Desire [Re: Sclorch]
    #2221935 - 01/05/04 11:29 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Getting rid of or reducing 'artificial desire' will still not make marxism work. Marxism fails because it removes incentives for people to produce... 'from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.' It is a prescription for machinery to go un-repaired, for creators to quit creating, for fields to lie fallow, for the unmotivated to live off the labor of the conscientious. THIS is precisely why the Soviet Union failed, why the original colonists in America nearly starved to death (until they decided to abandoned collectivism and hence increase productivity).

Marxism is a creed of the naive and utopians, embraced with a religious fervor by those seeking to escape the reality of the human condition and the condition of all life on earth. Namely, that living requires effort, an expenditure of energy. It is an economic house of cards, which promises to everyone that they may live at the expense of everyone else. Marxism is the political equivalent of a belief in magic.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Marxism and Artificial Desire [Re: Autonomous]
    #2221995 - 01/06/04 12:00 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Getting rid of or reducing 'artificial desire' will still not make marxism work. Marxism fails because it removes incentives for people to produce...

Oh, I know... I was just thinking of artificial desire and it's relation to Marxism.  But since the subject has strayed to only artificial desire... I'm changing the title of this thread. :wink:

Socialism, Russian Communism, Marxism... they all leave the door wide open for mediocrity.  Fuck mediocrity.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Marxism and Artificial Desire [Re: Autonomous]
    #2222293 - 01/06/04 02:57 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Marxism is the political equivalent of a belief in magic.

It takes an awful lot more than "magic" to go from an utterly destroyed feudal state to defeating the most powerful army the world had ever seen within 20 years. A German army that had walked through the capitalist countries of Europe as if they didn't exist. Clearly the economic system in Russia must have worked wonders.

Whether the soviet union had anything to do with marxism is of course another question.

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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Marxism and Artificial Desire [Re: Xlea321]
    #2222844 - 01/06/04 10:50 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

A German army that had walked through the capitalist countries of Europe as if they didn't exist. Clearly the economic system in Russia must have worked wonders.

Is a strong military necessarily linked to a strong economy?

BTW, wasn't the population of Russia just a tad larger?


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Marxism and Artificial Desire [Re: Sclorch]
    #2222869 - 01/06/04 11:02 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Think you'll find they had pretty much the same population as they did in the first world war.

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Marxism and Artificial Desire [Re: Sclorch]
    #2222928 - 01/06/04 11:29 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)


Would it be all that catastrophic if we slowly retarded the
artificial desire from this demographic?


You are advocating the government attempting to change people's
habits? When governments attempt to do that, tyranny ensues.
That is why communism was such am insult to humanity; it attempted
to mold what people thought to serve the state's ends.


I mean, MOST of the shit teenage girls buy isn't even made in the US
(this means little job loss on the production level). So, we're
talking about executives, managers, and retail employees having to
find new jobs. I don't see how a slow reduction of these positions is
going to hurt the market.

These executives, managers, and retail employees would not take
kindly to the government intentionally trying to destroy their
industry.


So, what I propose is a mandatory "smart consumer" class that
encourages school-age kids to analyze their spending habits.

I don't see a problem with promoting financial responsibility.
But, when we attempt to tell people what to do, a lot of problems
can arise.


It wouldn't eradicate the artificial desire, but it would reduce
it... and it might, hopefully, counteract the manic consumption
epidemic.

Do you think people would actually listen? Drugs are illegal and
people still do them. Our government rails against fatty foods,
and people still eat them. If our government railed against
pointless consumerism, the general populace would ignore that too.

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Marxism and Artificial Desire [Re: Xlea321]
    #2222950 - 01/06/04 11:38 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)


It takes an awful lot more than "magic" to go from an utterly
destroyed feudal state to defeating the most powerful army the world
had ever seen within 20 years.


It can be argued that the initial euphoria of the revolution
made the populace a compliant and productive workforce. And,
with central organization controlling that workforce, there is no
doubt that productivity would be higher than it was. And, lastly
when an enemy faces a country, the people of that country tend
to make an extra effort while facing that enemy. However, there
is little debate that the initial "success" of Russian communism was
followed by decades of decline and brutality directed towards its
citizens.

...And let us not forget the power of force. Maybe people will work
a little harder if there is the constant threat of being hauled away
in the night to be shot or imprisoned.

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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Marxism and Artificial Desire [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2222966 - 01/06/04 11:45 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

There would be no railing... it would be slow, painless, and subtle.

I don't think ill-thought consumption is an active process like taking drugs or eating fatty foods. I think the problem is not that people WANT the latest and greatest XYZ, but that they don't slow down and analyze whether they're buying on impulse or because of an artificial desire. People don't crave drugs and fatty foods because of an artificial desire (though the artificial desire may steer them to McDonald's rather than Burger King)... this desire is self-imposed, there is no changing this. When it comes to self-imposed desires for goods and services, I agree with you in that the government should stay out of telling people what to buy.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Artificial Desire [Re: Sclorch]
    #2222976 - 01/06/04 11:50 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

I wouldn't say there's so much a artificial desire as there is a situation of false hope and certain dependancy.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Marxism and Artificial Desire [Re: Xlea321]
    #2222980 - 01/06/04 11:52 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Sclorch: BTW, wasn't the population of Russia just a tad larger?
Alex: Think you'll find they had pretty much the same population as they did in the first world war.

Oops... structural ambiguity.
I was trying to say that Russia had a larger population than the capitalist countries of Europe. As such, Russia had a larger army and could therefore keep the Nazis at bay.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Marxism and Artificial Desire [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2222989 - 01/06/04 11:56 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

the people of that country tend to make an extra effort while facing that enemy.

But all this could be said about the first world war too. Clearly something remarkable happened in the 20 years between the first world war and being able to fight off the most powerful armed force in history.

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Marxism and Artificial Desire [Re: Sclorch]
    #2222994 - 01/06/04 11:57 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

I was trying to say that Russia had a larger population than the capitalist countries of Europe. As such, Russia had a larger army and could therefore keep the Nazis at bay.

The same point still stands tho sclorch. They had the same population 20 years earlier when the germans walked all over them.

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Marxism and Artificial Desire [Re: Sclorch]
    #2222999 - 01/06/04 12:00 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)


There would be no railing... it would be slow, painless, and subtle.

How would it be slow, painless, and subtle? The government would
still be promoting viewpoints about limiting consumption. The
government would still be trying to tell us what to do. How is
that subtle?

The government makes money off of the taxing of consumption. If they
were to try to limit consumption, wouldn't that kind of be a
contradiction?

Well...hehehe...the U.S. government is known for contradictions at
times. For example, taxing the shit out of cigarettes and then
telling the public not to smoke them.


I don't think ill-thought consumption is an active process like
taking drugs or eating fatty foods.

Yes it is. People see something and they want it. Whether it is
food, drugs, or a shiny piece of crap that they will throw away
in two days. The reason that people buy things is because they
want things. I don't see how you can limit that drive in people
without a massive attempt at thought-control.

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Marxism and Artificial Desire [Re: Xlea321]
    #2223013 - 01/06/04 12:06 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)


the people of that country tend to make an extra effort while facing
that enemy.


Clearly something remarkable happened in the 20 years between the
first world war and being able to fight off the most powerful armed
force in history.


Yes...the thing that happened was called enthusiasm. That
enthusiasm ebbed over time and it had to be replaced by brutality.

P.S. Did you ever hear about how Russian soldiers who ran were
shot by their officers? Did you ever hear about how Russian officers
who failed to get victories had their families executed? Fear is
a great motivator. That might have had something to do with
Russia's valiant stand against the Germans.

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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Marxism and Artificial Desire [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2223024 - 01/06/04 12:10 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Well, Randal, I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree. *shudder*

I don't see how encouraging people to "analyze whether they're buying on impulse or because of an artificial desire" is thought-control (it won't be "Hey kid, quit buying all that useless junk you don't need!"). Are you telling me that teaching kids about the scientific method is also thought-control?



Alex: They had the same population 20 years earlier when the germans walked all over them.
Hmm... good point. But did they have Kommisars in WW1?


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Marxism and Artificial Desire [Re: Sclorch]
    #2223049 - 01/06/04 12:21 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)


I don't see how encouraging people to "analyze whether they're buying
on impulse or because of an artificial desire" is thought-control (it
won't be "Hey kid, quit buying all that useless junk you don't
need!"). Are you telling me that teaching kids about the scientific
method is also thought-control?

As I said, encouraging fiscal responsibility seems to be an ok idea.
I don't see much of a problem with that.

As to how to teach kids to be "smart" consumers....I just don't
know if it is the government's right to in anyway encourage
people to act in a certain way when it comes to consumerism or
materialism. I guess you would have to give me details on this
plan of yours for me to understand you more thoroughly.

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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Marxism and Artificial Desire [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2223156 - 01/06/04 12:59 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Plan? We don't need no steenking plan!

Yeah, uh...
1. Ban advertising that specifically targets children (it works in Europe).
2. Teach children that advertisments can be deceptive. Many examples will be given.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Marxism and Artificial Desire [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2223200 - 01/06/04 01:13 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I don't see how you can limit that drive in people
without a massive attempt at thought-control.




Dont you see that this desire has been artificially increased by a massively successful attempt at thought control?


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Marxism and Artificial Desire [Re: GazzBut]
    #2223257 - 01/06/04 01:34 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Exactly!


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Marxism and Artificial Desire [Re: Sclorch]
    #2223286 - 01/06/04 01:44 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

I dont think we can really legislate to try and decrease the urge though. I think we just need to have a little faith that rampant and destructive consumerism is just a phase that we will all move out of willingly. Some people call me an eternal optimist btw!  :grin:


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Marxism and Artificial Desire [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2223327 - 01/06/04 01:54 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Yes...the thing that happened was called enthusiasm enthusiasm ebbed over time and it had to be replaced by brutality.


Nah, I think any "enthusiasm" would have dwindled long before 1941. Mass starvation in the 20's, Stalin in the 30's. Must've sapped enthusiasm a little.

Did you ever hear about how Russian soldiers who ran were

Wasn't execution for desertion fairly common in most armies at that time? Certainly was for the germans anyway.

Russia's valiant stand against the Germans

I think it took a little more than extreme bravery tho - the soviet economy was up to the gargantuan task of defeating the might of Hitlers Germany. Would 20 years of capitalism have been that successful in transforming the russian economy?

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Marxism and Artificial Desire [Re: Sclorch]
    #2224089 - 01/06/04 07:20 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)


1. Ban advertising that specifically targets children (it works in
Europe).
2. Teach children that advertisments can be deceptive. Many examples
will be given.

That seems reasonable.

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Marxism and Artificial Desire [Re: GazzBut]
    #2224095 - 01/06/04 07:22 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)


Dont you see that this desire has been artificially increased by a
massively successful attempt at thought control?


When individuals and companies do this, it is somewhat permissible.
When a government does it, it becomes scary.

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Anonymous

Re: Marxism and Artificial Desire [Re: Sclorch]
    #2224150 - 01/06/04 07:47 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

when someone buys a $200,000 car, you and i probably think that's ridiculous, but i'm sure that the mechanics who built the car, and the engineers who designed the car, and the ones putting up the money to pay for the machinery to build the car don't feel that way. they're working, taking risks, and getting paid for it.

the way i see it is this... let's say someone buys a $600 purse. now... someone had to design that purse, someone had to make it, someone had to ship it, someone had to provide the machinery to produce it, someone had to be in the store selling it, someone works in the shopping mall as a security guard, another as a janitor, someone helped build the mall. $600 dollars for a purse is outrageous, but if someone wasn't buying it, it wouldn't be made and sold, and there wouldn't be anyone making it and selling it. if that person didn't buy that purse, no one would be any better off. some would actually be worse.

consumerism doesn't create poverty or stifle the economy or any of that (not that anyone here is saying it does), it does the opposite. it does have its drawbacks. consumer culture is ugly. it's bad for people. it is soul draining. i can see that. but what do we do... have the government come in and tell people they can't spend more than $60 on a pair of shoes? tell people they aren't allowed to advertize their new line of SUV's? have government-sponsored anti-consumerism counseling? i don't think consumerism is a political issue at all. it's not the government's place to come in and teach people to value the simple things in life, eschew materialism, etc, etc... it's not my place, or your's, or the government's, to tell people how to live and how to spend their money.

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Marxism and Artificial Desire [Re: Xlea321]
    #2224297 - 01/06/04 08:44 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)


Wasn't execution for desertion fairly common in most armies at that
time? Certainly was for the germans anyway.


Certainly for some. Was the murdering of entire families standard
for most countries though?


Russia's valiant stand against the Germans


I think it took a little more than extreme bravery tho - the soviet
economy was up to the gargantuan task of defeating the might of
Hitlers Germany. Would 20 years of capitalism have been that
successful in transforming the russian economy?

If the Russian communist economy was so great, why did people
continuously starve and live in decrepit conditions?

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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

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Posts: 4,773
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Re: Marxism and Artificial Desire [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2224990 - 01/07/04 02:27 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

When individuals and companies do this, it is somewhat permissible.
When a government does it, it becomes scary.




That is illogical. It is the intent and the propensity for success that make these actions scary, not who carries them out.


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Always Smi2le

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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Marxism and Artificial Desire [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2225048 - 01/07/04 03:18 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Certainly for some. Was the murdering of entire families standard

Do you know how many times this actually happened randall? You sure it wasn't just a story put about to prevent desertion? What if the family had more than 1 son and the other son was still fighting? He's going to desert when you kill his family isn't he? What if his cousins takes exception to you killing the family and decides to desert too? I'm not saying it never happened but lets just say I think it's pretty unlikely.


If the Russian communist economy was so great

I'm not saying it was great particularly. Just that clearly something worked economy wise for them to be able withstand World War II. This idea that a communist economy means no-one works obviously gets blown out of the water by what happened in russia.

Whether or not russia had anything to do with a communist economy is another question I suppose.

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Posts: 15,608
Re: Marxism and Artificial Desire [Re: GazzBut]
    #2225651 - 01/07/04 10:38 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)


When individuals and companies do this, it is somewhat permissible.
When a government does it, it becomes scary.


That is illogical. It is the intent and the propensity for success
that make these actions scary, not who carries them out.


Let me rephrase that.  When I said "thought control" I was using it
in the context that you were; namely attempting to get people to
buy or think certain things.  I don't think it is immoral for a
person or company trying to seek a profit to get people to want to
buy their product.  I don't really see that as real thought control. 
I believe governments should be impartial in such matters, that is
why I said government shouldn't do such things.

People do have free will.  If they are stupid enough to listen to
every commercial they see, then so be it.  If they are savvy enough
to ignore the marketing, then so be it.  The myriad of products
and services and the way they are advertised merely offers us a
choice, not a demand.  We have the choice to buy what we want to
and to not buy what we don't want to.  I don't see how we are
so "oppressed" or "controlled".

Ideas such as this irk me.  You seem to imply that there is some vast
conspiracy to keep the American public dumbed-down and compliant
consumers who just want to buy more and more stuff.  I don't
buy Chomsky-like crap like this.  There isn't some vast and
well-coordinated conspiracy.  Human beings like stuff.  We come up
with the ideas to make the stuff, we sell the stuff, and we buy
the stuff.  We like materialism because it makes our lives more
fun and physically and mentally comfortable.

The American public buys stuff because people like to acquire stuff. 
Yes, advertising does sometimes "push" us into a buying mood, but we
as independent people have the responsibility to make our own
decisions.

P.S.  I'm going to go play my XBOX(from the evil capitalistic
company called Microsoft) soon.  I was forced into buying it
by evil corporations.  I'm a brainwashed consumer.  I can't
help myself.  Save me!!!!  :smirk:

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Marxism and Artificial Desire [Re: Xlea321]
    #2225686 - 01/07/04 10:51 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)


Certainly for some. Was the murdering of entire families standard


Do you know how many times this actually happened randall?

No, but I have heard that it did happen.

You sure it wasn't just a story put about to prevent desertion?

What kind of government would use such a cruel story?

The Soviet government supposedly did this to families of failed
officers, not deserters.


I'm not saying it never happened but lets just say I think it's
pretty unlikely.

Ok, fair enough. I was merely trying to illustrate the brutality
that existed in Russia communism, as well as every other state
that attempted communism.


If the Russian communist economy was so great


I'm not saying it was great particularly. Just that clearly something
worked economy wise for them to be able withstand World War II.

A central government forced everyone to go to work and told them
what to do. I'll be the first one to admit that it is probable that
economic output did increase(over what was going on in the time of
the Tsar).

The real test of Russian communism was did it provide every citizen
with a good quality of life. I think the answer is no on that.


This idea that a communist economy means no-one works obviously gets
blown out of the water by what happened in russia.

I have never said nobody worked in a communist country. Everybody
works in a communist country. The things that concern me are the
brutality experienced by the citizens, the lack of economic freedom,
and the lower productivity when compared to capitalist economies.

Edited by RandalFlagg (01/07/04 10:54 AM)

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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

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Posts: 4,773
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Re: Marxism and Artificial Desire [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2225975 - 01/07/04 01:06 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Well I am typing this on my Packard BellTM computer using windowsTM operating system  :grin:

To be honest I dont think there is any mass conspiracy related to what Im talking about. Im just observing what I see.

governments dont sell things they sell ideas. Such as its a good idea to go to war with Iraq.


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Marxism and Artificial Desire [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2228887 - 01/08/04 04:16 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Sure, there's no mass conspiracy... but there isn't any mass awareness either.

To me...
* Capitalism is good if people are honest.
* The negatives of rampant consumerism (not Nader's def. used in the 60s) far outweigh the positives.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
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Re: Marxism and Artificial Desire [Re: Sclorch]
    #2229011 - 01/08/04 05:04 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Sclorch writes:

* Capitalism is good if people are honest.

And which system is better for a society in which some people are dishonest?

* The negatives of rampant consumerism (not Nader's def. used in the 60s) far outweigh the positives.

And some of these negatives are.... ?

pinky


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Marxism and Artificial Desire [Re: Phred]
    #2229086 - 01/08/04 05:30 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

pinksharkmark said:
Sclorch writes:

* Capitalism is good if people are honest.

And which system is better for a society in which some people are dishonest?



None.  I'm not saying that there's anything better than capitalism... just saying that it's not perfect.  Duh. :wink:

Quote:

* The negatives of rampant consumerism (not Nader's def. used in the 60s) far outweigh the positives.

And some of these negatives are.... ?



Having to see my younger sister spend 4 hours a day staring blankly into a television.  Seeing the sick memes dictate to her "what's cool," "stylish," "beautiful," and THEN watching her become more and more insecure with who she is.  Then I look at every kid around and see the same thing.  Then I look back to my school years... and sure enough... it was there, too.

I wonder how many fights have been caused by Billy accidentally stepping on Bobby's $150 sneakers that have been made valuable ONLY by clever marketers who were able to create an artificial desire in Bobby's easily-molded, immature mind.

I wonder how many girls, who have inherited their mother's full body-type (which was considered beautiful in the 40s or whenever), starve themselves to look like the toothpicks that represent the current model of "beauty."

I wonder how many kids get used to a lifestyle of constant consumption, which their parents are forced to support for 18 years, and then become slaves to credit card companies because they can't change their illogical spending habits.

But yeah, sure... the positive is that the economy is great... I hear the CEO of GAP just got another huge bonus.  Oh, and they're hiring down at the new SuperWalmart, too bad their benefits suck and they'll fire you just before you qualify for any pension.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
Re: Marxism and Artificial Desire [Re: Sclorch]
    #2229250 - 01/08/04 06:35 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

So maybe you cant get the government to do it, gather individuals, tell them about whats going on... inform the public. You dont have to go through the government to change a few things.


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What?

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Invisiblephreakyzen
My God is anAwesome God

Registered: 12/16/02
Posts: 274
Loc: Under the sea
Re: Marxism and Artificial Desire [Re: Phred]
    #2229604 - 01/08/04 08:56 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Sorry I hate to just jump in here but I would like to add something.

The negatives of rampant consumerism:

http://www.bizjournals.com/buffalo/stories/2003/11/17/daily7.html

http://www.adbusters.org/campaigns/commercialfree/toolbox/coke.html

A good marketing plan can create a whole tradition based on artificial desire, look at diamonds. Just think of what good marketing can do in our schools and with the next generation. Why stop there?

There is no balance with corporations they will seek out profit to no end! This is a negative of consumerism, commercialism and capitalism.

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