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OfflineEllis Dee
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Sharia law. Pros and cons.
    #22206804 - 09/08/15 11:32 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Saudi Arabia Crimes and punishments.

Crime                    Punishment
Blasphemy                Death   
Acts of homosexuality    Death
Treason                  Death
Murder                    Death
Drug Trafficking          Death
Slander                  Lashing
Drinking alcohol          Lashing
Adultery                  Death by stoning
Stealing                  Amputation of right hand
Banditry (robbery)        Amputation of hand and foot
Banditry (robbery+murder) Death

Aside from not being able to get a drink or draw their prophet it seems pretty fair to me. Do you think all those folks on Ashley Madison should be stoned to death? It would certainly help the sanctity of marriage to enforce the law harshly and fairly. It would also pretty much ensure near zero street crime (banditry). I think a lot of folks would support this if the Islamic context of blasphemy and no drinking were erased from the system of jurisprudence.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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InvisibleONE OZ SLUG
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Re: Sharia law. Pros and cons. [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #22206820 - 09/08/15 11:34 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

It wouldn't stop crime altogether, and there would be an awful lot of people missing their hands and feet.


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Invisiblelarry.fisherman
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Re: Sharia law. Pros and cons. [Re: ONE OZ SLUG] * 2
    #22206833 - 09/08/15 11:36 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Lashing is a cruel form of punishment and you support killing all the gays? What the fuck. And death for drug trafficking? Death by stoning? Yeah, we need our society to gather for the sole reason of killing people.

This thread is shit.

Even treason.. do you have any idea how many times something a government considers treason was good for the people?


Edited by larry.fisherman (09/08/15 11:37 AM)


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Sharia law. Pros and cons. [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #22206845 - 09/08/15 11:39 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

336 said:
It's definitely some high-stakes militaristic-type form of governance. Which I can kind of agree too considering our current system.

From what I hear it practically erases crime (although not completely of course) because, well, no one wants to get killed or have their hand chopped off for some stupid shit. lol



The older I get the more I appreciate law and order. I think Singapore has a near ideal system. Add to the Singapore system an eye for an eye and cutting the hands off theieves like in Sharia and I think it would be perfect, because I can still get a drink as long as I don't hurt anyone while drunk.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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OfflinePatlal
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Re: Sharia law. Pros and cons. [Re: Ellis Dee] * 2
    #22206856 - 09/08/15 11:42 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Lets kill everybody


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InvisibleJvF
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Re: Sharia law. Pros and cons. [Re: Patlal]
    #22206862 - 09/08/15 11:43 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
Lets kill everybody



Everyones dead, theres no crime

Problem solved
:dawerp:


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Sharia law. Pros and cons. [Re: larry.fisherman]
    #22206869 - 09/08/15 11:46 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

XLCaps said:
Lashing is a cruel form of punishment and you support killing all the gays? What the fuck. And death for drug trafficking? Death by stoning? Yeah, we need our society to gather for the sole reason of killing people.

This thread is shit.

Even treason.. do you have any idea how many times something a government considers treason was good for the people?



Do you think cheaters (like on Ashley Madison) should be rewarded with child support and alimony judgments or do you think they should be treated as the family wreckers they are?


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Invisiblelarry.fisherman
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Re: Sharia law. Pros and cons. [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #22206885 - 09/08/15 11:49 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ellis Dee said:
Quote:

XLCaps said:
Lashing is a cruel form of punishment and you support killing all the gays? What the fuck. And death for drug trafficking? Death by stoning? Yeah, we need our society to gather for the sole reason of killing people.

This thread is shit.

Even treason.. do you have any idea how many times something a government considers treason was good for the people?



Do you think cheaters (like on Ashley Madison) should be rewarded with child support and alimony judgments or do you think they should be treated as the family wreckers they are?



You have no idea what people's lives are like, not everything is black and white.

Alimony is stupid regardless.


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OfflineHanz
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Re: Sharia law. Pros and cons. [Re: Ellis Dee] * 1
    #22206896 - 09/08/15 11:54 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Freedom?


--------------------
Small scale alternative parties rich in empathy and extravagance. Happen to know of one in the vicinity of Amsterdam? PM me my dear fellow. I love to meet some other freaks.

Oh and, if you can,.. embrace the nyctomorph. It needs you.


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OfflineKonyap

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Re: Sharia law. Pros and cons. [Re: Hanz]
    #22207241 - 09/08/15 01:18 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

That stuff is only enforced on the poor uneducated population, the rich in many countries live like we do.


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Sharia law. Pros and cons. [Re: larry.fisherman] * 1
    #22207322 - 09/08/15 01:33 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

XLCaps said:
You have no idea what people's lives are like, not everything is black and white.

Alimony is stupid regardless.



Fair point. But you'd think this would be an issue most people could get on board with because no one wants to be cheated on and cheaters will never admit what they do. It seems like with talk about gay marriage and the backlash about the sanctity of marriage that more Christians and conservatives would take the Biblical position, that adulterers should be stoned to death, or at least put in prison. Its a shame to see families wrecked by the millions and the social problems and welfare that result placing the burdon on the taxpayers. Its better to execute the guilty culprits to discourage such societal breakdowns. Moses had it right all along.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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InvisibleLophosaurus
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Re: Sharia law. Pros and cons. [Re: Ellis Dee] * 1
    #22207366 - 09/08/15 01:42 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Most people wouldn't want to kill their spouse for cheating. People cheat all the time its just something some people do. Should we kill people for lying or not wearing a seat belt too. This is the dumbest thread I've seen in a while.

Your name is Ellis Dee. Do you know what they would do to you if you got caught with some LSD? Go live in Saudi Arabia if you think that is a good lifestyle.


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Sharia law. Pros and cons. [Re: Lophosaurus]
    #22207401 - 09/08/15 01:48 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Lophosaurus said:
Most people wouldn't want to kill their spouse for cheating. People cheat all the time its just something some people do. Should we kill people for lying or not wearing a seat belt too. This is the dumbest thread I've seen in a while.

Your name is Ellis Dee. Do you know what they would do to you if you got caught with some LSD? Go live in Saudi Arabia if you think that is a good lifestyle.



I obey the local laws of the land when I travel.

But the point is really that laws are too lenient here. Your LSD example is a good one. Here if I were captured with some acid I'd hire a lawyer and hope for probation. If the laws were serious about not allowing it, the deterrent should be death, because that would keep me from even thinking about doing it.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Invisiblekoraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,672
Re: Sharia law. Pros and cons. [Re: Lophosaurus] * 1
    #22207408 - 09/08/15 01:49 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Of course sharia law isn't a good idea. But it's not only because of the crass punishments associated with it. But a decent debate on the issue isn't possible since most people are not capable of looking past those punishments and recognize what is inherently wrong with sharia as a system.


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Sharia law. Pros and cons. [Re: koraks] * 1
    #22207440 - 09/08/15 01:53 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

koraks said:
Of course sharia law isn't a good idea. But it's not only because of the crass punishments associated with it. But a decent debate on the issue isn't possible since most people are not capable of looking past those punishments and recognize what is inherently wrong with sharia as a system.



Other than being based on Islam what's wrong with it? I think Singapore is a little better, harsh but fair, and you can drink and eat delicious bacon. But Sharia seems to really eliminate crime. If it were implemented in Chicago for example after the first round of executions I think we'd all think it was a much nicer and safer place to visit. Mild punishments don't seem to work while crass ones do. And there lies the dilema.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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InvisibleShiithead
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Re: Sharia law. Pros and cons. [Re: Ellis Dee] * 2
    #22207451 - 09/08/15 01:56 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Fun Fact:

Back in the day, probably in Ireland, if you stole a sheep and were caught, you would have your hand cut off. If you were fucking the sheep and caught, they would cut off a finger. Many sheep thieves when caught would claim they were just fucking it. XD


--------------------

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Psalm 12:6
The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
Hebrews 11:3
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Revelation 3:11
Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Sharia law. Pros and cons. [Re: Shiithead]
    #22207481 - 09/08/15 02:00 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Shiithead said:
Fun Fact:

Back in the day, probably in Ireland, if you stole a sheep and were caught, you would have your hand cut off. If you were fucking the sheep and caught, they would cut off a finger. Many sheep thieves when caught would claim they were just fucking it. XD



lmao @ irish sheep fuckers!!! :rofl:


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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InvisibleLophosaurus
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Re: Sharia law. Pros and cons. [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #22207492 - 09/08/15 02:02 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ellis Dee said:
Quote:

koraks said:
Of course sharia law isn't a good idea. But it's not only because of the crass punishments associated with it. But a decent debate on the issue isn't possible since most people are not capable of looking past those punishments and recognize what is inherently wrong with sharia as a system.



Other than being based on Islam what's wrong with it? I think Singapore is a little better, harsh but fair, and you can drink and eat delicious bacon. But Sharia seems to really eliminate crime. If it were implemented in Chicago for example after the first round of executions I think we'd all think it was a much nicer and safer place to visit. Mild punishments don't seem to work while crass ones do. And there lies the dilema.




No one would visit Chicago just like no is vacationing in Saudi Arabia.  There isn't that much crime going on anyways. I drive and travel 8 hours a day and I never see any serious crimes being committed.


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InvisibleShiithead
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Re: Sharia law. Pros and cons. [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #22207493 - 09/08/15 02:02 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

I guess at one point sheep fucking was on the rise. xD

In all reality it was thieves not wanting to lose there mitt x)


--------------------

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Psalm 12:6
The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
Hebrews 11:3
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Revelation 3:11
Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.


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OfflineBeanhead
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Re: Sharia law. Pros and cons. [Re: Shiithead]
    #22207498 - 09/08/15 02:03 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Pros:



Cons:

everything else


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Offlinespecialpeopleclub
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Re: Sharia law. Pros and cons. [Re: Shiithead]
    #22207508 - 09/08/15 02:05 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Well, the Muslems want it now. It gets annoying when people compare before their parents were born. Do you remember the millions dead in the world wars? Noone really does now, noone cares, it is over so move the fuck on. Singapore, better? Yeah, I want to be lashed in public 0r executed over weed, fucking retarded


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OfflineDr.Wongburger
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Re: Sharia law. Pros and cons. [Re: Beanhead]
    #22207511 - 09/08/15 02:05 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Fuck Sharia law. Over there, great good for them. Not in my country tho. Not in the USA. Never gonna happen buddy.


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InvisibleShiithead
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Re: Sharia law. Pros and cons. [Re: Beanhead]
    #22207516 - 09/08/15 02:07 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Con:



--------------------

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Psalm 12:6
The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
Hebrews 11:3
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Revelation 3:11
Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Sharia law. Pros and cons. [Re: Lophosaurus] * 1
    #22207523 - 09/08/15 02:07 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Lophosaurus said:
No one would visit Chicago just like no is vacationing in Saudi Arabia.  There isn't that much crime going on anyways. I drive and travel 8 hours a day and I never see any serious crimes being committed.



Not much crime in Chicago??? You might be safer in the downtown business district but Chicago is a trainwreck, totally infested with gangs and robbers.

Here's a story just from last weekend. Police: 6 killed, 35 wounded in Chicago weekend shootings http://chicago.suntimes.com/crime/7/71/898828/2-killed-9-wounded-chicago-weekend-shootings


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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OfflineEzuma
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Re: Sharia law. Pros and cons. [Re: Dr.Wongburger] * 1
    #22207525 - 09/08/15 02:08 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Lol who was honestly suggesting Sharia law would be introduced to the US? That wouldn't and shouldn't ever happen. Sharia law is nothing but cons. Islam is almost nothing but cons. I've got no love for fundamentalist Christians or Jews either but at least they seem to represent a small minority.
Fuck Sharia Law, and fuck their damn prophet. Imma draw cartoons of whoever the fuck I like


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Invisiblekoraks
Registered: 06/02/03
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Re: Sharia law. Pros and cons. [Re: Ellis Dee] * 4
    #22207531 - 09/08/15 02:09 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ellis Dee said:
Quote:

koraks said:
Of course sharia law isn't a good idea. But it's not only because of the crass punishments associated with it. But a decent debate on the issue isn't possible since most people are not capable of looking past those punishments and recognize what is inherently wrong with sharia as a system.



Other than being based on Islam what's wrong with it?



That's the first thing.
A second is its reliance on incredibly unreliable methods for finding and evaluating evidence.
A third is the fact that there's no consistent set of laws underlying it, but a vague set of ramblings that is open to any imaginable interpretation in the form of the quran and the hadith.
A fourth is its lack of consistent procedures in its application, leading to gross inequality in outcomes.
And the list goes on and on. It's a fundamentally flawed system.

The argument that it effectively eradicates crime is nonsensical, as sharia trials are as common as trials are in the west. Apparently, there's still criminal behavior. And according to our standards, the punishments that are part of sharia law are in themselves criminal acts.

The comparison with Singapore's judicial system is beyond me and only seems to rely on the fact that Singapore still has the death penalty for certain crimes. Singapore's judicial system is much more similar to Western systems than it is to sharia. In fact, it looks nothing like sharia.


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Sharia law. Pros and cons. [Re: koraks]
    #22207562 - 09/08/15 02:16 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

koraks said:
Quote:

Ellis Dee said:
Quote:

koraks said:
Of course sharia law isn't a good idea. But it's not only because of the crass punishments associated with it. But a decent debate on the issue isn't possible since most people are not capable of looking past those punishments and recognize what is inherently wrong with sharia as a system.



Other than being based on Islam what's wrong with it?



That's the first thing.
A second is its reliance on incredibly unreliable methods for finding and evaluating evidence.
A third is the fact that there's no consistent set of laws underlying it, but a vague set of ramblings that is open to any imaginable interpretation in the form of the quran and the hadith.
A fourth is its lack of consistent procedures in its application, leading to gross inequality in outcomes.
And the list goes on and on. It's a fundamentally flawed system.

The argument that it effectively eradicates crime is nonsensical, as sharia trials are as common as trials are in the west. Apparently, there's still criminal behavior. And according to our standards, the punishments that are part of sharia law are in themselves criminal acts.

The comparison with Singapore's judicial system is beyond me and only seems to rely on the fact that Singapore still has the death penalty for certain crimes. Singapore's judicial system is much more similar to Western systems than it is to sharia. In fact, it looks nothing like sharia.



All good points. Thanks for the informative contribution!


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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InvisibleLophosaurus
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Re: Sharia law. Pros and cons. [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #22207613 - 09/08/15 02:28 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ellis Dee said:
Quote:

Lophosaurus said:
No one would visit Chicago just like no is vacationing in Saudi Arabia.  There isn't that much crime going on anyways. I drive and travel 8 hours a day and I never see any serious crimes being committed.



Not much crime in Chicago??? You might be safer in the downtown business district but Chicago is a trainwreck, totally infested with gangs and robbers.

Here's a story just from last weekend. Police: 6 killed, 35 wounded in Chicago weekend shootings http://chicago.suntimes.com/crime/7/71/898828/2-killed-9-wounded-chicago-weekend-shootings





Oh, Yeah. I was talking about the area I'm in, not Chicago. Most places in the US are pretty safe if you aren't gangbanging or up to shenanigans. Of course if you go to places like downtown Miami or Detroit you could easily end up in trouble. You think if you lash a gangbanger  or cut their hand off then they will clean themselves up and be a good person?


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OfflineDr.Wongburger
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Re: Sharia law. Pros and cons. [Re: Ezuma]
    #22207622 - 09/08/15 02:30 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ezuma said:
Lol who was honestly suggesting Sharia law would be introduced to the US? That wouldn't and shouldn't ever happen. Sharia law is nothing but cons. Islam is almost nothing but cons. I've got no love for fundamentalist Christians or Jews either but at least they seem to represent a small minority.
Fuck Sharia Law, and fuck their damn prophet. Imma draw cartoons of whoever the fuck I like




I guess I got caught up in all the hype from the past when I was hearing all about this. What does your "love" or lack of love for Christians or Jews matter? thanks for sharing tho. I don't see or hear of Jewish people or Christians forcing their laws upon the people in todays world, if I'm wrong do let me know (even tho this is besides the point and subject). Even tho the USA is prominently a Christian nation.

Sharia law being introduced to the USA :

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/29/sharia-law-usa-states-ban_n_3660813.html

http://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/2015/01/05/shariah-in-american-courts-the-expanding-incursion-of-islamic-law-in-the-u-s-legal-system/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ban_on_sharia_law

"In the United States, there are no Islamic courts, but judges sometimes have to consider Islamic law in their decisions. For example, a judge may have to recognize the validity of an Islamic marriage contract from a Muslim country in order to grant a divorce in America.

Some Islamic scholars argue that true Islamic belief cannot be coerced by the state, and therefore belief in Shariah should only come from the individual and not be codified by the state."

"insinuation of Islam’s supremacist shariah legal code into the U.S. judiciary. Entitled Shariah in American Courts: The Expanding Incursion of Islamic Law in the U.S. Legal System"

"The Center first raised an alarm about the penetration of American jurisprudence by one of the most anti-constitutional of such foreign legal codes with its 2011 report, Shariah Law and American State Courts: An Assessment of State Appellate Court Cases. That study examined a sample of fifty cases and found that in twenty-seven of them, in twenty-three different states, the courts in question allowed the use of shariah, generally to the detriment of women and/or children whose rights under our Constitution were infringed."

"This monograph also suggests that the effort to invoke shariah in U.S. courts is expanding. Worse yet, the total number of such cases is surely far larger in light of the fact that the proceedings of the vast majority of them are not published."


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Invisiblekoraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,672
Re: Sharia law. Pros and cons. [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #22207628 - 09/08/15 02:31 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

:thumbup:
I hope this adds some depth to the notion that sharia is just about idiotic punishments. Sure, it has its good points, but all considered, it's a hopeless solution compared to Western judicial systems.


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OfflineBitter Cactus
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Re: Sharia law. Pros and cons. [Re: Dr.Wongburger] * 1
    #22207630 - 09/08/15 02:32 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

I would never shop lift if I knew the result would be my hand getting cut off.

There is something admirable about a tough on crime outlook. Instill fear in the people and nobody will dare to steal or do anything against the law. :thumbup:


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Re: Sharia law. Pros and cons. [Re: Lophosaurus]
    #22207649 - 09/08/15 02:36 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Lophosaurus said:
You think if you lash a gangbanger  or cut their hand off then they will clean themselves up and be a good person?



I think the recidivism rate will be near zero, especially for robbery because the robbers will be missing their hands and feet. And when the young kids see the OGs missing their hands and feet over mugging a senior citizen or a burglary it will set an example. Kids could grow up pitying the criminal for his lack of hands instead of dreaming about growing up and being a gangbanger.

Maybe sharia is a bad idea, but I think there is a place for harsh punishments improving society. Singapore is pretty close to ideal in that regard.


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Re: Sharia law. Pros and cons. [Re: koraks]
    #22207678 - 09/08/15 02:41 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

koraks said:
:thumbup:
I hope this adds some depth to the notion that sharia is just about idiotic punishments. Sure, it has its good points, but all considered, it's a hopeless solution compared to Western judicial systems.



Yes :thumbup:

I guess I liked the "idiotic punishments" part and saw the only bad aspect being that it was based on a religion that I loath. It appears to be a thouroughly flawed system in many ways.


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And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Re: Sharia law. Pros and cons. [Re: Bitter Cactus]
    #22207682 - 09/08/15 02:42 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Yea well over here in the United States of America we don't practice cruel and unusual punishment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruel_and_unusual_punishment

We stick your ass in jail.


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Re: Sharia law. Pros and cons. [Re: Bitter Cactus]
    #22207690 - 09/08/15 02:44 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Bitter Cactus said:
I would never shop lift if I knew the result would be my hand getting cut off.

There is something admirable about a tough on crime outlook. Instill fear in the people and nobody will dare to steal or do anything against the law. :thumbup:




Just 3D print another

suckers


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Re: Sharia law. Pros and cons. [Re: Beanhead]
    #22207696 - 09/08/15 02:45 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Beanhead said:

Just 3D print another

suckers




:thumbup:


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Re: Sharia law. Pros and cons. [Re: Beanhead]
    #22207703 - 09/08/15 02:46 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Sounds like a world of blind left handed people to me.


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Re: Sharia law. Pros and cons. [Re: Oggy]
    #22207735 - 09/08/15 02:50 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Oggy said:
Sounds like a world of blind left handed people to me.



No, only the bad guys would end up that way.


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And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Re: Sharia law. Pros and cons. [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #22207832 - 09/08/15 03:08 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

You are so jaded. Morality is fluid. Nothing can change that, not laws, man, or a god.


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Re: Sharia law. Pros and cons. [Re: Dr.Wongburger] * 1
    #22207846 - 09/08/15 03:10 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Just threw in the bit about other religions to point out its not that I have a hard on for hating muslims, its just their religion is the most toxic of the major ones by far :shrug:
I don't think religious beliefs should have any bearing on what people can or can't do in the law. Everyone should get the same treatment. If they wanna wear a fucking tablecloth over their face fine whatever, but they shouldn't be surprised when people are sketched out that their faces can't be seen


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Re: Sharia law. Pros and cons. [Re: Ezuma]
    #22207904 - 09/08/15 03:20 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

When one wit any will of their own is punished, it makes them hate of they do not truely feel at fault and want to repent, and fear only goes so far for prevemtion


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Re: Sharia law. Pros and cons. [Re: specialpeopleclub] * 2
    #22207913 - 09/08/15 03:21 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

I think I caught some of the stupid off that post


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Re: Sharia law. Pros and cons. [Re: Ezuma]
    #22207931 - 09/08/15 03:25 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

OP has a Napoleon Bonaparte quote, ... under all this.
:ohyou:


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Re: Sharia law. Pros and cons. [Re: Ezuma]
    #22207943 - 09/08/15 03:27 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

What Im saying is, if I drink and am pit in jail or loose a body part, not being a devout muslem, I will believe I have done nothing wrong. I am still punished. This may instill fear, but it will also instill hatred for those in authority in me and all those like me


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Re: Sharia law. Pros and cons. [Re: Ezuma] * 1
    #22207945 - 09/08/15 03:28 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ezuma said:
Just threw in the bit about other religions to point out its not that I have a hard on for hating muslims, its just their religion is the most toxic of the major ones by far :shrug:
I don't think religious beliefs should have any bearing on what people can or can't do in the law. Everyone should get the same treatment. If they wanna wear a fucking tablecloth over their face fine whatever, but they shouldn't be surprised when people are sketched out that their faces can't be seen




Same here. If I went out side looking like a idiot, I would expect people to call me a idiot.

What I don't get is.. the local bank I'm with.. they make EVERY one else take off sunglasses and hats and any thing covering their face at the front counter/in line. These people walk on up and have no problem.

I always thought it was usually illegal to wear a mask in public. Laws vary.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-mask_laws#United_States
http://www.anapsid.org/CND/mcs/maskcodes.html

They should have to obey the law like every one else, if their not.


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Re: Sharia law. Pros and cons. [Re: Dr.Wongburger]
    #22210070 - 09/08/15 11:08 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

I was at my friends house and I brought up the subject of this thread to him. He lead me to this article -

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2005/08/top_ten_reasons_why_sharia_is.html


"10. Islam commands that drinkers and gamblers should be whipped.

In 2001, Iranian officials sentenced three men to flogging not only for illicit sex (see reason no. nine), but also for drinking alcohol.

In 2005, in Nigeria a sharia court ordered that a drinker should be caned eighty strokes.

In 2005, in the Indonesian province of Aceh, fifteen men were caned in front of a mosque for gambling. This was done publicly so all could see and fear. Eleven others are scheduled to undergo the same penalty for gambling.

After going through two previous confusing stages before coming down hard on drinkers and gamblers, the Quran finally prohibits alcohol and gambling in Sura 5:90—91; they do not prescribe the punishment of flogging, but the hadith does. A poor 'criminal' was brought to Muhammad who became angry:

The Prophet felt it hard (was angry) and ordered all those who were present in the house, to beat him [the drinker dragged into Muhammad's presence]. (Bukhari, Punishments, nos. 6774—6775)

Thus, we see no offer of help for the alcoholic when he is dragged before Muhammad and his followers. Why does Muhammad not offer rehabilitation? Why does he immediately go to corporal punishment?

The later classical legal rulings follow the Quran and the hadith, so we do not need to examine them here.

It is sometimes argued that Islamic countries are pure, whereas the West is decadent. No one can argue with this latter claim, but are Islamic countries pure? The Supplemental Material, below, demonstrates that Islamic countries still have drinking and gambling in them.

Here is the article  that supports this tenth point and that analyzes the confusing Quranic verses on drinking and gambling. It analyzes the hadith and later legal rulings.

9. Islam allows husbands to hit their wives even if the husbands merely fear highhandedness in their wives.

In 2004, Rania al—Baz, who had been beaten by her husband, made her ordeal public to raise awareness about violence suffered by women in the home in Saudi Arabia.

Saudi television aired a talk show that discussed this issue. Scrolling three—fourths of the way down the link, the readers can see an Islamic scholar holding up sample rods that husbands may use to hit their wives.

The Quran says:

4:34 . . . If you fear highhandedness from your wives, remind them [of the teaching of God], then ignore them when you go to bed, then hit them. If they obey you, you have no right to act against them. God is most high and great. (MAS Abdel Haleem, the Qur'an, Oxford UP, 2004)

The hadith says that Muslim women in the time of Muhammad were suffering from domestic violence in the context of confusing marriage laws:

Rifa'a divorced his wife whereupon 'AbdurRahman bin Az—Zubair Al—Qurazi married her. 'Aisha said that the lady (came), wearing a green veil (and complained to her (Aisha) of her husband and showed her a green spot on her skin caused by beating). It was the habit of ladies to support each other, so when Allah's Apostle came, 'Aisha said, "I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women. Look! Her skin is greener than her clothes!" (Bukhari)

This hadith shows Muhammad hitting his girl—bride, Aisha, daughter of Abu Bakr: Muslim no. 2127:

'He [Muhammad] struck me [Aisha] on the chest which caused me pain.'

It is claimed that Islamic societies have fewer incidents of fornication and adultery because of strict laws or customs, for example, women wearing veils over their faces or keeping separate from men in social settings. But these results of fewer incidents of sexual 'crimes' may have unanticipated negative effects in other areas, such as the oppression of women. Generally, sharia restricts women's social mobility and rights, the more closely sharia is followed. For example, in conservative Saudi Arabia women are not allowed to drive cars.  In Iran, the law oppresses women. For example, women's testimony counts half that of men, and far more women than men are stoned to death for adultery.

Here is the supporting article for the ninth point. It has a long list of different translations of Sura 4:34, in order to resolve confusion over this verse, circulating around the web. This longer article has many links that demonstrate the oppression of women under Islamic law (scroll down to 'Further discussion').

8. Islam allows an injured plaintiff to exact legal revenge—physical eye for physical eye.

In 2003, in Saudi Arabia a man had two teeth extracted under the law of retaliation.

In 2003, a court in Pakistan sentenced a man to be blinded by acid after he carried out a similar attack on his fianc�e.

In 2005, an Iranian court orders a man's eye to be removed for throwing acid on another man and blinding him in both eyes.

The Quran says:

5:45 And We ordained therein for them: Life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth and wounds equal for equal. But if anyone remits the retaliation by way of charity, it shall be for him an expiation. And whosoever does not judge by that which Allah has revealed, such are the Zalimun (polytheists and  wrongdoers . . .). (Hilali and Khan, The Noble Qur'an, Riyadh: Darussalam, 1996)

This passage allows for an indemnity or compensation instead of imposing the literal punishment of eye for an eye. No one should have a quarrel with this option. According to the hadith, the plaintiff also has the option to forgive, and this is legitimate, provided a judge oversees the process. The problem is the literal law of retaliation.

The hadith and later legal rulings demonstrate that this excessive option was actually carried out, as do the three modern examples linked above.

Please go here for the supporting article that cites the hadith and later legal rulings.

Islamic law calls all of humanity to march backwards 1,400 years BC and to re—impose the old law of retaliation—literally, and the evidence suggest that the Torah never intended the law to be carried out literally, as the supporting article demonstrates.

7. Islam commands that a male and female thief must have a hand cut off.

Warning! This short article has photos of severed hands. The reader should never lose sight of the fact that this punishment is prescribed in the Quran, the eternal word of Allah. It does not exist only in the fevered imagination of a violent and sick radical regime like the Taliban, which once ruled in Afghanistan.

A Saudi cleric justifies chopping off hands here.

The Quran says:

5:38 Cut off the hands of thieves, whether they are male or female, as punishment for what they have done—a deterrent from God: God is almighty and wise. 39 But if anyone repents after his wrongdoing and makes amends, God will accept his repentance: God is most forgiving and merciful. (Haleem)

At first glance, verse 39 seems to accept repentance before the thief's hand is cut off. But the hadith states emphatically that repentance is acceptable only after mutilation. Muhammad himself says that even if his own daughter, Fatima, were to steal and then intercede that her hand should not be cut off, he would still have to cut it off (Bukhari, Punishments, no. 6788)

If the reader would like to see more hadith passages, modern defenses of this indefensible punishment (and a refutation of them), and the Biblical solution to theft, they should click on this long supporting article or this shorter one.

6. Islam commands that highway robbers should be crucified or mutilated.

In September 2003, Scotsman Sandy Mitchell faced crucifixion in Saudi Arabia. He was beaten and tortured until he confessed to a crime he did not commit: a bomb plot masterminded by the British embassy. The article says of this punishment that it is the worst kind of execution and that two have been carried out in the last twenty years.

In 2002 Amnesty International reports that even though Saudi Arabia ratified the Convention against Torture and other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment (Convention against Torture) in October 1997, amputation is prescribed under both Hudud (punishments) and Qisas (law of retaliation). AI has recorded thirty—three amputations and nine cross—amputations where the alternate hand or foot is mutilated.

The Quran says:

5:33 Those who wage war against God and His Messenger and strive to spread corruption in the land should be punished by death, crucifixion, the amputation of an alternate hand and foot or banishment from the land: a disgrace for them in this world, and then a terrible punishment in the Hereafter, 34 unless they repent before you overpower them: in that case bear in mind that God is forgiving and merciful. (Haleem)

It may be difficult to accept, but the hadith says that Muhammad tortured these next people before he executed them. This scenario provides the historical context of Sura 5:33—34. The explanations in parentheses have been added by the translator:

Narrated Anas: Some people . . . came to the Prophet and embraced Islam . . . [T]hey turned renegades (reverted from Islam) and killed the shepherd of the camels and took the camels away . . . The Prophet ordered that their hands and legs should be cut off and their eyes should be branded with heated pieces of iron, and that their cut hands and legs should not be cauterized, till they died. (Bukhari, Punishments, no. 6802)

The next hadith reports that the renegades died from bleeding to death because Muhammad refused to cauterize their amputated limbs. Then the hadith after that one reports that the renegades were not given water, so they died of thirst. They probably died of both causes: thirst and loss of blood.

See this short article for details on another example of Muhammad's use of torture.

Islamic law says that these punishments are imposed for highway robbery, and in some cases crucifixion does not need a murder before it is imposed.

For more information on Muhammad's brutality and the barbaric laws that flow out of it, go to the back—up article.

5. Islam commands that homosexuals must be executed.

In February 1998, the Taliban, who once ruled in Afghanistan, ordered a stone wall to be pushed over three men convicted of sodomy. Their lives were to be spared if they survived for 30 minutes and were still alive when the stones were removed.

In its 1991 Constitution, in Articles 108—113, Iran adopted the punishment of execution for sodomy.

In April 2005, a Kuwaiti cleric says homosexuals should be thrown off a mountain or stoned to death.

On April 7, 2005, it was reported that Saudi Arabia sentenced more than 100 men to prison or flogging for 'gay conduct.'

These homosexuals were lucky. Early Islam would have executed them, as these hadith demonstrate.

Ibn Abbas, Muhammad's cousin and highly reliable transmitter of hadith, reports the following about early Islam and Muhammad's punishment of homosexuals: . . .

'If you find anyone doing as Lot's people did, kill the one who does it, and the one to whom it is done' (Abu Dawud no. 4447).

This hadith passage says that homosexuals should be burned alive or have wall pushed on them:

Ibn Abbas and Abu Huraira reported God's messenger as saying, 'Accursed is he who does what Lot's people did.' In a version . . . on the authority of Ibn Abbas it says that Ali [Muhammad's cousin and son—in—law] had two people burned and that Abu Bakr [Muhammad's chief companion] had a wall thrown down on them. (Mishkat, vol. 1, p. 765, Prescribed Punishments)

Though this punishment of a wall being toppled on them is extreme, the Taliban were merely following the origins of their religion.

If the reader would like to see the confusion in the Quran on the matter of homosexuality, the severity in the hadith, and excessive rulings of classical fiqh, they should see the supporting article. This longer one has links to many discussions on Islamic punishments of homosexuals (scroll down to 'Supplemental material').

4. Islam orders unmarried fornicators to be whipped and adulterers to be stoned to death.

Fornication:

In 2001, Iranian officials sentenced three men to flogging for illicit sex.

The Quran says:

24:2 The fornicatress and the fornicator, flog each of them with a hundred stripes. Let not pity withhold you in their case, in a punishment prescribed by Allah, if you believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a party of the believers witness their punishment. [This punishment is for unmarried persons guilty of the above crime (illegal sex), but if married persons commit it (illegal sex), the punishment is to stone them to death, according to Allah's law]. (Hilali and Khan).

The additions in the brackets, though not original to the Arabic, have the support of the hadith. These command flogging only of unmarried fornicators: Bukhari, Punishments, nos. 6831 and 6833.

The classical legal rulings follow the Quran and the hadith closely, so we do not need to analyze them here.

According to this report, in Iran a teenage boy broke his Ramadan fast, so a judge sentenced him to be lashed with eighty—five stripes. He died from the punishment. Though his sad case does not deal with fornication, it is cited here because it shows that lashing can be fatal.

Adultery:

In December 2004, Amnesty International reports:

An Iranian woman charged with adultery faces death by stoning in the next five days after her death sentence was upheld by the Supreme Court last month. Her unnamed co—defendant is at risk of imminent execution by hanging. Amnesty International members are now writing urgent appeals to the Iranian authorities, calling for the execution to be stopped.

She is to be buried up to her chest and stoned to death.

This gruesome hadith passage reports that a woman was buried up to her chest and stoned to death:

And when he had given command over her and she was put in a hole up to her breast, he ordered the people to stone her. Khalid b. al—Walid came forward with a stone which he threw at her head, and when the blood spurted on his face he cursed her . . . (Muslim no. 4206)

The Prophet prayed over her dead body and then buried her. Truthfully, though, how effective was the prayer when Muhammad and his community murdered her in cold blood? The rest of the hadith says that Muhammad told Khalid not to be too harsh, but the Prophet's words drip with irony. Perhaps Muhammad meant that Khalid should not have cursed her. However, if they really did not want to be harsh, they should have forgiven her and let her go to raise her child.

Later Islamic legal rulings follow the Quran and the hadith closely, so we do not need to analyze them here.

Here is the back—up article that supports this fourth reason.

3. Islam orders death for Muslim and possible death for non—Muslim critics of Muhammad and the Quran and even sharia itself.

In 1989, Iran's Supreme Leader issued a fatwa (legal decree) to assassinate Salman Rushdie, a novelist, who wrote Satanic Verses, which includes questions about the angel Gabriel's role in inspiring the Quran. Now the extremists in the highest levels in Iran have recently renewed  the fatwa.

In 2005, The Muslim Council of Victoria, Australia, brought a lawsuit against two pastors for holding a conference and posting articles critiquing Islam. Three Muslims attended the conference and felt offended. The two pastors have been convicted based on Australia's vilification law. While on trial, one of them wanted to read from the Quran on domestic violence (see 9, above), but the lawyer representing the Council would not allow it. The pastors are appealing their conviction.

In 2005, British Muslims have been campaigning to pass a religious hate speech law in England's parliament. They have succeeded. Their ability to propagandize has not been curtailed. Opponents of the law say that it stifles free speech that may criticize Muhammad, the Quran, and Islam.

Here are the classical legal rulings.

First, the Muslim deserves death for doing any of the following (Reliance of the Traveler pp. 597—98, o8.7):

(1) Reviling Allah or his Messenger; (2) being sarcastic about 'Allah's name, His command, His interdiction, His promise, or His threat'; (3) denying any verse of the Quran or 'anything which by scholarly consensus belongs to it, or to add a verse that does not belong to it'; (4) holding that 'any of Allah's messengers or prophets are liars, or to deny their being sent'; (5) reviling the religion of Islam; (6) being sarcastic about any ruling of the Sacred Law; (7) denying that Allah intended 'the Prophet's message . . . to be the religion followed by the entire world.'

It is no wonder that critical investigation of the truth claims of Islam can never prevail in Islamic lands when the sword of Muhammad hangs over the scholars' head.

The non—Muslims living under Islamic rule are not allowed to do the following (p. 609, o11.10(1)—(5)):

(1) Commit adultery with a Muslim woman or marry her; (2) conceal spies of hostile forces; (3) lead a Muslim away from Islam; (4) mention something impermissible  about Allah, the Prophet . . . or Islam.

According to the discretion of the caliph or his representative, the punishments for violating these rules are as follows: (1) death, (2) enslavement, (3) release without paying anything, and (4) ransoming in exchange for money. These punishments also execute free speech—even repulsive speech—and freedom of religion or conscience.

Ultimately, censorship testifies to a lack of confidence in one's position and message. If the message of Islam were truly superior, one could trust in the power of truth. As it stands, sharia with its prescribed punishments for questioning Muhammad, the Quran, and sharia itself testifies to their weakness since sharia threatens those who dare to differ.

How confident was Muhammad (and today's Muslims) in his message that he had to rely on violence and force to protect his message, besides reason and persuasive argumentation?

For the supporting article that analyzes the Quran and the hadith, both of which orders death to critics, click here.

2. Islam orders apostates to be killed.

In Iran an academic was condemned to death for criticizing clerical rule in Iran. The rulers assert that he was insulting Muhammad and Shi'ite laws. He was charged with apostasy.

This analysis  tracks the application of apostasy laws around the world, citing many examples.

Apostates are those who leave Islam, like Salman Rushdie (see the linked article in no. three, above), whether they become atheists or convert to another religion. They are supposed to be killed according to the Quran, the hadith, and later legal rulings.

See the previous point no. three for acts that entail leaving Islam according to Islamic law.

Here are the articles that support reason no. two.

This is a short, but full article on apostasy, citing Quranic verses and hadith passages.

Sayyid Maududi, a respected Islamic scholar, in this booklet argues that Sura 9:11—12 refers to apostates and that they should be put to death (scroll down to 'The Proof in the Quran for the Commandment to Execute Apostates').

This Muslim website has an overview of Islam on apostates. They should be given time to repent, but if they refuse, they must be killed.

And the number one reason why sharia is bad for all societies . . .

1. Islam commands offensive and aggressive and unjust jihad.

Muhammad is foundational to Islam, and he set the genetic code for Islam, waging war. In the ten years that he lived in Medina from his Hijrah (Emigration) from Mecca in AD 622 to his death of a fever in AD 632, he either sent out or went out on seventy—four raids, expeditions, or full—scale wars. They range from small assassination hit squads to kill anyone who insulted him, to the Tabuk Crusades in late AD 630 against the Byzantine Christians. He had heard a rumor that an army was mobilizing to invade Arabia, but the rumor was false, so his 30,000 jihadists returned home, but not before imposing a jizya tax on northern Christians and Jews.

Money flowed into the Islamic treasury. So why would Muhammad get a revelation to dry up this money flow?

What are some of the legalized rules of jihad found in the Quran, hadith, and classical legal opinions?

(1) Women and children are enslaved. They can either be sold, or the Muslims may 'marry' the women, since their marriages are automatically annulled upon their capture. (2) Jihadists may have sex with slave women. Ali, Muhammad's cousin and son—in—law, did this. (3) Women and children must not be killed during war, unless this happens in a nighttime raid when visibility was low. (4) Old men and monks could be killed. (5) A captured enemy of war could be killed, enslaved, ransomed for money or an exchange, freely released, or beaten. One time Muhammad even tortured a citizen of the city of Khaybar in order to extract information about where the wealth of the city was hidden. (6) Enemy men who converted could keep their property and small children. This law is so excessive that it amounts to forced conversion. Only the strongest of the strong could resist this coercion and remain a non—Muslim. (7) Civilian property may be confiscated. (8) Civilian homes may be destroyed. (9) Civilian fruit trees may be destroyed. (10) Pagan Arabs had to convert or die. This does not allow for the freedom of religion or conscience. (11) People of the Book (Jews and Christians) had three options (Sura 9:29): fight and die; convert and pay a forced 'charity' or zakat tax; or keep their Biblical faith and pay a jizya or poll tax. The last two options mean that money flows into the Islamic treasury, so why would Muhammad receive a revelation to dry up this money flow?

Thus, jihad is aggressive, coercive, and excessive, and Allah never revealed to Muhammad to stop these practices.

Conclusion
The nightmare must end. Sharia oppresses the citizens of Islamic countries."


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Re: Sharia law. Pros and cons. [Re: Dr.Wongburger]
    #22210097 - 09/08/15 11:13 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

To me it sounds like Ellis Dee needs to eat some good LSD and rethink his thoughts on life...


All cons.


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Re: Sharia law. Pros and cons. [Re: sh4d0ws]
    #22210146 - 09/08/15 11:27 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Sharia law is all bullshit. It annoys me that judges have even took it into thought when doing case's.

The founding fathers of this nation would go ape shit over that if they knew.


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Re: Sharia law. Pros and cons. [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #22210202 - 09/08/15 11:40 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Is sorcery still allowed? I am starting to think I may need to move to Holland so I can practice my sorcery in peace.


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Re: Sharia law. Pros and cons. [Re: Moonshoe]
    #22210219 - 09/08/15 11:45 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neopaganism_in_the_United_States

It's legal as far as I know :shrug:

Atleast Wicca

Unless you mean for a different country than the US.

Don't know.


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Re: Sharia law. Pros and cons. [Re: Dr.Wongburger]
    #22210448 - 09/09/15 12:49 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

In theort, I like number eight. The rest are damning. That one though. If someone gouged my eyes, I should be able to take his sight. What? He gets a  nice visible prison cell?
Still, Islam damns itself, and one who follows it should be punished, removed, deported, killed, imprisoned. If I went on TV and told someone or a group to attack another, I would notbe allowed free because of 'free speech'. Child porn isnt allowed either(though, it may help pedos not fuck children of they had it, though, it may just make them want it more)
We need to do something bas to these invading Muslem refugies, but a few corpses and the media will go off about it.


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Re: Sharia law. Pros and cons. [Re: specialpeopleclub]
    #22210631 - 09/09/15 03:00 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

pros: none
cons: everything


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Re: Sharia law. Pros and cons. [Re: Cosmic_Flame]
    #22210640 - 09/09/15 03:11 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

How is getting stoned even punishment?


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Re: Sharia law. Pros and cons. [Re: my3rdeye]
    #22210963 - 09/09/15 07:11 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Got to give the Islamic people one thing, they sure are motivated... :shrug:  Makes me think about Hassan I Sabbah and his devotees.  Now that guy had some serious followers.  I read a story somewhere about one of his descendants telling a man to jump off the side of a wall and he just did it.

I think the man was trying to prove a point about power to a foreign dignatary or something.  Makes you wonder about the human mind honestly.


--------------------
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equation, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a
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Re: Sharia law. Pros and cons. [Re: Bitter Cactus]
    #22211156 - 09/09/15 08:22 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Bitter Cactus said:
I would never shop lift if I knew the result would be my hand getting cut off.

There is something admirable about a tough on crime outlook. Instill fear in the people and nobody will dare to steal or do anything against the law. :thumbup:




If you, personally, would never shop lift if you knew the result would be your hand getting cut off.

Do you, personally, shop lift on a regular basis at present because you are not under that threat?

Or do you not shop lift anyway, despite local laws not being that harsh?

Can agree that I would never shop lift if I knew my hand would be cut off, but already never shop lift to begin with.


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Re: Sharia law. Pros and cons. [Re: my3rdeye]
    #22211565 - 09/09/15 10:32 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

my3rdeye said:
How is getting stoned even punishment?



:whistling:


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Re: Sharia law. Pros and cons. [Re: Dr.Wongburger]
    #22211622 - 09/09/15 10:48 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Dr.Wongburger said:
I was at my friends house and I brought up the subject of this thread to him. He lead me to this article -

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2005/08/top_ten_reasons_why_sharia_is.html


...abridged for the sake of not having a full length quote in the reply...


10. Islam commands that drinkers and gamblers should be whipped.
9. Islam allows husbands to hit their wives even if the husbands merely fear highhandedness in their wives.
8. Islam allows an injured plaintiff to exact legal revenge—physical eye for physical eye.
7. Islam commands that a male and female thief must have a hand cut off.
6. Islam commands that highway robbers should be crucified or mutilated.
5. Islam commands that homosexuals must be executed.
4. Islam orders unmarried fornicators to be whipped and adulterers to be stoned to death.
3. Islam orders death for Muslim and possible death for non—Muslim critics of Muhammad and the Quran and even sharia itself.
2. Islam orders apostates to be killed.
1. Islam commands offensive and aggressive and unjust jihad.


Conclusion
The nightmare must end. Sharia oppresses the citizens of Islamic countries."



Again I want to make it clear that I never said sharia was a good idea but originally I stated that if the Islamic contexts were removed like no drinking and being critical of Islam then the punishments would all be good.

Koraks made it clear that the system is flawed in other ways. So it seems to me the only virtue this style of law has is in its harsh but fair punishments. Robbers should have their hands cut off, if you intentionally harm someone and they lose an eye you deserve to lose yours too. It also has a good basis in making for a stable family based society in which children are well taken care of by their parents instead of by a welfare state with their anti-adultery and anti-homosexuality provisions, which I find harsh but fair. If someone decides to ruin a stable family unit or undermine that family unit they do deserve to die. That was what Moses originally proscribed and it is still fair today.

If these harsh style punishments could be incorporated into a better legal system, like that of Singapore, with the exclusion of the Islamic bits such as no alcohol then it would be ideal. And crime would be at such low levels as to be nearly non-existant.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Re: Sharia law. Pros and cons. [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #22211636 - 09/09/15 10:51 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

A stable family unit where the men treat the women like non humans. A religion that wamts a binch of breeding blind adheerants. Really what we want. So 'harsh but fair'. What a nasty joke. You are spewing some seriois crap aboit this


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Re: Sharia law. Pros and cons. [Re: TheGreenArrow]
    #22211646 - 09/09/15 10:53 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

TheGreenArrow said:
Got to give the Islamic people one thing, they sure are motivated... :shrug:  Makes me think about Hassan I Sabbah and his devotees.  Now that guy had some serious followers.  I read a story somewhere about one of his descendants telling a man to jump off the side of a wall and he just did it.

I think the man was trying to prove a point about power to a foreign dignatary or something.  Makes you wonder about the human mind honestly.



If we had all the mk-ultra gear and tools available to use we could lock someone in a room for a few weeks, work them over with the mk-ultra and make them our robot too. Hassan I Sabbah would be so utterly jealous he'd break down and blush.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Re: Sharia law. Pros and cons. [Re: specialpeopleclub]
    #22211769 - 09/09/15 11:25 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
A stable family unit where the men treat the women like non humans. A religion that wamts a binch of breeding blind adheerants. Really what we want. So 'harsh but fair'. What a nasty joke. You are spewing some seriois crap aboit this



Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
A stable family unit where the men treat the women like non humans. A religion that wamts a binch of breeding blind adheerants. Really what we want. So 'harsh but fair'. What a nasty joke. You are spewing some seriois crap aboit this



I think we basicly agree that know the religion makes it a bad system. And there are other flaws in the jurisprudence as pointed out by a more knowledgable member.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Re: Sharia law. Pros and cons. [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #22212253 - 09/09/15 01:27 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Because Islamic countries are all about law and order :rolleyes:


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Re: Sharia law. Pros and cons. [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #22212280 - 09/09/15 01:34 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ellis Dee said:
Again I want to make it clear that I never said sharia was a good idea but originally I stated that if the Islamic contexts were removed like no drinking and being critical of Islam then the punishments would all be good.

Koraks made it clear that the system is flawed in other ways. So it seems to me the only virtue this style of law has is in its harsh but fair punishments. Robbers should have their hands cut off, if you intentionally harm someone and they lose an eye you deserve to lose yours too. It also has a good basis in making for a stable family based society in which children are well taken care of by their parents instead of by a welfare state with their anti-adultery and anti-homosexuality provisions, which I find harsh but fair. If someone decides to ruin a stable family unit or undermine that family unit they do deserve to die. That was what Moses originally proscribed and it is still fair today.

If these harsh style punishments could be incorporated into a better legal system, like that of Singapore, with the exclusion of the Islamic bits such as no alcohol then it would be ideal. And crime would be at such low levels as to be nearly non-existant.





Quote:

Ellis Dee said:
Aside from not being able to get a drink or draw their prophet it seems pretty fair to me. Do you think all those folks on Ashley Madison should be stoned to death? It would certainly help the sanctity of marriage to enforce the law harshly and fairly. It would also pretty much ensure near zero street crime (banditry). I think a lot of folks would support this if the Islamic context of blasphemy and no drinking were erased from the system of jurisprudence.




I'm not sure if you are quoting the holy bible by mentioning moses but your source- verse(s) would not be bad to post. Regardless thats looking at the book with out a sense of Shalam. However I know many Christians do that today. If so, you should clarify how that is related to Islam. I just woke up... I'm a little sleepy right now :shrug:

That's fair to you? I guess thats like your opinion man. What is your Country of origin or what Country do you reside in?
Have you ever heard of Cruel and unusual punishment? You sound very un-American. With that type of society rulers are expecting unquestioning obedience. You trust your government that much? You trust your Government to decide if you get to keep your hand or eye ball? Can you really depend on man that much? You really think they are always going to be on your side with out a agenda? All they would have to do is lie then cut your hand off. You want a Government to have that much power? They can simply say "You do this, we will do this.", It almost leans towards a totalitarian government. I almost take this as a troll thread just to stir people up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruel_and_unusual_punishment

If you are a American and your not sure why we don't cut people's hands off and such, I suggest you seriously do some studying on American history, human dignity, and the different unusual and cruel punishments that have been in the world threw out the years.

Why would you wish that terrible stuff on Singapore?


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Re: Sharia law. Pros and cons. [Re: Dr.Wongburger]
    #22212362 - 09/09/15 01:57 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Dr.Wongburger said:
I'm not sure if you are quoting the holy bible by mentioning moses but your source- verse(s) would not be bad to post. Regardless thats looking at the book with out a sense of Shalam. However I know many Christians do that today. If so, you should clarify how that is related to Islam. I just woke up... I'm a little sleepy right now :shrug:

That's fair to you? I guess thats like your opinion man. What is your Country of origin or what Country do you reside in?
Have you ever heard of Cruel and unusual punishment? You sound very un-American. With that type of society rulers are expecting unquestioning obedience. You trust your government that much? You trust your Government to decide if you get to keep your hand or eye ball? Can you really depend on man that much? You really think they are always going to be on your side with out a agenda? All they would have to do is lie then cut your hand off. You want a Government to have that much power? They can simply say "You do this, we will do this.", It almost leans towards a totalitarian government. I almost take this as a troll thread just to stir people up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruel_and_unusual_punishment

If you are a American and your not sure why we don't cut people's hands off and such, I suggest you seriously do some studying on American history, human dignity, and the different unusual and cruel punishments that have been in the world threw out the years.

Why would you wish that terrible stuff on Singapore?



I am American to answer your question. And proud to be so!

I take a look at things from what I think is an objective point of view. We incarcerate more people than anywhere else on Earth. More people are getting rediculous long probation terms for trivial things. We have pedophiles that are so dangerous that all we can do is warn their neighbors to keep an eye on them. Black children grow up on welfare and have becoming a criminal as their greatest aspiration. Something is seriously wrong here.

The traditional harsh on crime long sentencing and mandatory minimum things are a total failure. Maybe its time to reform the constitution and reimpose the traditional penalties for crimes. If a person breaks in your house and is captured they cut off his hand. If a person robs a gas station they cut off their hand. If a person has adultery they get not just publicly humiliated but stoned too. How many welfare babies will there be? Just a few from widows and orphans instead of  millions from trashy women looking at each kid as a boost in their welfare check. I know its harsh. The world is a harsh place and the only ting I can guarantee about it is that you will pay taxes and eventually die. Sorry if this spoils your utopian dreams.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Re: Sharia law. Pros and cons. [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #22212454 - 09/09/15 02:17 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ellis Dee said:
Quote:

TheGreenArrow said:
Got to give the Islamic people one thing, they sure are motivated... :shrug:  Makes me think about Hassan I Sabbah and his devotees.  Now that guy had some serious followers.  I read a story somewhere about one of his descendants telling a man to jump off the side of a wall and he just did it.

I think the man was trying to prove a point about power to a foreign dignatary or something.  Makes you wonder about the human mind honestly.



If we had all the mk-ultra gear and tools available to use we could lock someone in a room for a few weeks, work them over with the mk-ultra and make them our robot too. Hassan I Sabbah would be so utterly jealous he'd break down and blush.



What gets me is Hassan I Sabbah was one of the first to use chemicals as a way to program his followers into doing what he wanted.  Apparently he's studied at the top collegescat the time and specialized in politics and "chemistry/alchemy".  He was one of the first to pioneer chemical imprinting by setting up a  "paradise" for his followers. 
He'd get them to smoke what's been speculated as a mix of Afghan hashish and a tiny bit of some tropane alkaloid.  Then he'd have his heirum to come fuck the bejeesus out of his most devotees.  When they woke up later he'd tell them that was paradise and if they fought for his cause they'd get to go back if they martyred themselves in the name of the cause.

It's actually where the term "assassin" came from, it was a bastardization of "hashassin".


--------------------
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an
invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, conn a ship, write a
sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the
dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve an
equation, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a
computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.
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Re: Sharia law. Pros and cons. [Re: TheGreenArrow]
    #22212522 - 09/09/15 02:33 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

TheGreenArrow said:
What gets me is Hassan I Sabbah was one of the first to use chemicals as a way to program his followers into doing what he wanted.  Apparently he's studied at the top collegescat the time and specialized in politics and "chemistry/alchemy".  He was one of the first to pioneer chemical imprinting by setting up a  "paradise" for his followers. 
He'd get them to smoke what's been speculated as a mix of Afghan hashish and a tiny bit of some tropane alkaloid.  Then he'd have his heirum to come fuck the bejeesus out of his most devotees.  When they woke up later he'd tell them that was paradise and if they fought for his cause they'd get to go back if they martyred themselves in the name of the cause.

It's actually where the term "assassin" came from, it was a bastardization of "hashassin".



lol what dumbfucks to fall for that. :laugh2:


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And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Re: Sharia law. Pros and cons. [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #22212534 - 09/09/15 02:35 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

You're the guy touting the merits of such a great religion.


--------------------
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an
invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, conn a ship, write a
sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the
dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve an
equation, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a
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Re: Sharia law. Pros and cons. [Re: TheGreenArrow]
    #22212549 - 09/09/15 02:38 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

TheGreenArrow said:
You're the guy touting the merits of such a great religion.



No I'm not. I hate their religion. I only like their tough on crime approach to jurisprudence, but I realize now that even that is flawed.


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And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Re: Sharia law. Pros and cons. [Re: Ellis Dee] * 1
    #22212919 - 09/09/15 03:57 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ellis Dee said:
I am American to answer your question. And proud to be so!

I take a look at things from what I think is an objective point of view. We incarcerate more people than anywhere else on Earth. More people are getting rediculous long probation terms for trivial things. We have pedophiles that are so dangerous that all we can do is warn their neighbors to keep an eye on them. Black children grow up on welfare and have becoming a criminal as their greatest aspiration. Something is seriously wrong here.

The traditional harsh on crime long sentencing and mandatory minimum things are a total failure. Maybe its time to reform the constitution and reimpose the traditional penalties for crimes. If a person breaks in your house and is captured they cut off his hand. If a person robs a gas station they cut off their hand. If a person has adultery they get not just publicly humiliated but stoned too. How many welfare babies will there be? Just a few from widows and orphans instead of  millions from trashy women looking at each kid as a boost in their welfare check. I know its harsh. The world is a harsh place and the only ting I can guarantee about it is that you will pay taxes and eventually die. Sorry if this spoils your utopian dreams.




I'm not a anarchist so I have no dreams for a Utopia. I do agree that things are messed up sometimes such as a person can be raped and the rapist be sentenced less time than those that are of drug offenders. However since the world is a harsh place, why would you want to make it worse/ more harsh? You probably could get in big trouble for participating on a drug forum such as the shroomery under those standards. Do you like having the right to visit this website and the allowance of internet access? As a American I would like to think that you would be against a authoritarian or a totalitarian government. Since your on our soil your playing a game you will never win. :thumbup:

You should do some research on why our founding fathers gave their lives for this nation, to implement these freedoms and things such as the Constitution. Have you ever read the constitution? I own a copy of it.

Give up a few rights here and there then you start giving them all up. Those who trade freedom for security deserve neither. You have a right to have consensual sex with any one you want for example. Many people will find your argument absurd.



I can't see how you are implying that I'm believing for a Utopia with my libertarian view points when your Sharia law is aiming for a "crime less society threw harsh punishments". You complain of the incarceration rate. Long probation terms. Pedophiles, and poverty of African Americans. No welfare babies? No trashy women looking at each kid as a boost in their welfare check? No "traditional harsh on crime long sentencing and mandatory minimum things" (that was a hard sentence to understand)? No adultery? It sounds to me (and every one else reading) like you are wishing for a utopia. One which you will never achieve in this nation. Liberty and Justice for all is what we aim for.

Reason for edit- Added information.


Edited by Dr.Wongburger (09/09/15 04:04 PM)


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Re: Sharia law. Pros and cons. [Re: Dr.Wongburger]
    #22213013 - 09/09/15 04:17 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Fair enough. Check your ratings. :thumbup:


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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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OfflineDr.Wongburger
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Registered: 08/23/15
Posts: 1,308
Loc: Colorado, USA
Last seen: 6 years, 11 months
Re: Sharia law. Pros and cons. [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #22213047 - 09/09/15 04:23 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

aww thanks so much  :smile: . You just took all the fun out of this for me tho. I have been waiting for a response.

Well.. shit. I guess Ill just go smoke me a tobacco/ hemp cigarette now... then eat some dinner lol.


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