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Offlinedormiens_vagila
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while sleeping, be vigilant
    #22199397 - 09/06/15 08:40 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)



Heinrich Khunrath (c. 1560 – 9 September 1605), or Dr. Henricus Khunrath as he was also called, was a German ... "The First Stage of the Great Work," better-known as the "Alchemist's Laboratory." The drawing of the laboratory is credited to architectural painter Hans Vredeman de Vries (1527–1604) and shows Khunrath in his laboratory.-wikipedia

"Dormeins vagila" is printed above the alchemists door,  "while sleeping, be vigililant"

Khunrath, a disciple of Paracelsus, practiced medicine in Dresden, Magdeburg, and Hamburg and may have held a professorial position in Leipzig. He followed Paracelsian beliefs of divine initation into wisdom. He worked to develop Christianized natural magic; he sought to find the secret primary matter that would lead humankind into eternal wisdom. Yet he held experience and observation, to be the basis of his work, as would a natural philosopher. Quoted from
http://www.crystalinks.com/khunrath.html

Paracelsus was basically the first to incorporate drugs into alchemy, even signing some of his papers "doctor opiotus" (the opium doctor).

In the paragraph above they describe khunrath in a way that makes me think of him as identicle to a 14-15th century Terence mckenna. " he sought to find the secret primary matter that would lead humankind into eternal wisdom" , to me this "secret primary matter" the "prima materia" is DMT or the mushroom, and had these 14-15th century alchemists had DMT or psilocybin they would have reconized it as the "lapus philosophorum", specially Paracelsus, being so enthused with mind altering substances, and as a student of Paracelsus,  khunrath would have held this veiw as well, John dee and ed Kelley would have also rrconized DMT and psilocybin as the lapus, and no doubt with their interest in contact with angels and the dead there's no question, had they had it, DMT would have been the "lapus philosophorum" the "materia prima" and alchemy would have evolved into an incredibly advanced shamanism, bring practiced by highly educated men.

Mckenna maintained that shamanism is alchemy that has been in possession of the lupus philosophorum for quite some time, and I agree.

Ive always taken "dormeins vagila"  to mean "while in States of hallucination, pay attention" ,though this phrase has other meanings to me as well I love the potential triple and quadruple entendre these simple Latin phrases possess.

All this 14-15th century alchemy remind me of shamans of sort, or like ancient versions of Sasha shulgin lacking the psychedelic drugs.


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Offlinedormiens_vagila
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Re: while sleeping, be vigilant [Re: dormiens_vagila]
    #22199412 - 09/06/15 08:42 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

I cant scroll down to edit on this device, the last line was suposed to say. "All these" 14th-15th century "alchemists"

-E. Borodin


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: while sleeping, be vigilant [Re: dormiens_vagila]
    #22200085 - 09/06/15 11:34 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

I am confident that Dee and Kelly, who have their place in history under Elizabeth I, had nothing to do with DMT or Psilocybin. I've read enough on Dee over the last 4 decades, and visited his magickal instruments in the British Museum, to know that there is no reference to plants or mushrooms. I don't know why people want to project their new personal discoveries onto whatever historical period intrigues them. Paracelsus using opium and being an innovator in spagyrics is well-attested to, and adding Salt to the Sulphur and Mercury formula thereby affirming the tripartite form of the human being made sense in an occult idiom (as it has in Platonic and theological idioms). But Paracelsus was a precursory medical doctor, an Iatrochemist. he was not teaching about exalted states of mind, but was still steeped in astrological and theological considerations. However, an emphasis on cleanliness may have resulted in his alleged cures of very sick patients. His success was also a good motive why he was probably killed by envious competitors for reputation sake.

Being vigilant in sleep is a Christian directive that made sense in Khunrath's alchemy where the oratory was equally as important as the laboratory. "I sleep, but my heart waketh..." - Song of Solomon 5:2 belongs to a piece of literature deemed at once erotic and prayerful. "Pray without ceasing" - 1 Thessalonians 5:17 is the basis for the Hesychastic Prayer of the Heart, a Christian mantra which is begun with the lips, is then practiced in the mind, but made to descend with the breath to the heart where it acquires a life of its own even while asleep. Alchemy is an Initiatory path wherein nothing external occurs in one's laboratory vessels without the grace of God, so Christian practices aimed at sanctification become necessary if grace is to apply to the Great Work. The European alchemists were not tripping off of psychedelics. If they experienced transcendental states they were induced by fasting, prayer, and keeping vigil, if only over the fires in their athanors which needed to be tended for weeks or months at a time. Many of them were poisoned to hallucinatory madness and death because of Mercury absorption by puffers who misunderstood Philosophical Mercury (alcoholic spirits) to be Quicksilver (HG), metallic Mercury. The external laboratory vessels were outer manifestations of inner centers of psychic activity (Jung insisted that the inner was projected on the outer, but he failed to understand that those projections were later incorporated back into the alchemist). The planetary spirits corresponded to the 'inner planets' that India calls chakras. The inner-outer distinction had to be transcended for anything præternatural to take place in the laboratory.



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Offlinedormiens_vagila
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Re: while sleeping, be vigilant [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #22201202 - 09/07/15 09:40 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

You misread my entire post.

I said HAD THEY HAD IT they would have reconized it as the Lapus...


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Offlinedormiens_vagila
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Re: while sleeping, be vigilant [Re: dormiens_vagila]
    #22201290 - 09/07/15 10:02 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

  I am confident that Dee and Kelly, who have their place in history under Elizabeth I, had nothing to do with DMT or Psilocybin. I've read enough on Dee over the last 4 decades, and visited his magickal instruments in the British Museum, to know that there is no reference to plants or mushrooms. I don't know why people want to project their new personal discoveries onto whatever historical period intrigues them. Paracelsus using opium and being an innovator in spagyrics is well-attested to, and adding Salt to the Sulphur and Mercury formula thereby affirming the tripartite form of the human being made sense in an occult idiom (as it has in Platonic and theological idioms). But Paracelsus was a precursory medical doctor, an Iatrochemist. he was not teaching about exalted states of mind, but was still steeped in astrological and theological considerations. However, an emphasis on cleanliness may have resulted in his alleged cures of very sick patients. His success was also a good motive why he was probably killed by envious competitors for reputation sake.




You misread and misinterpreted EVERY word I said. Did you even read my post?

I NEVER said they had ANYTHING to do with psychedelics! In fact I was clearly stating that alchemy is a form of shamanism lacking the mind altering compounds, they were SEEKING the stone, then I said shamanism is a form of alchemy that HAS the stone, and has had it for quite some time. And HAD dee and Kelley HAD psilocybin or DMT they WOULD HAVE reconized it as the lapus.

This is especially true with khunrath and Paracelsus, Paracelsus was the first to combine alchemy and medicine, unfortunately the medicine was generally laudanum, HAD paracelsus and khunrath been in possession of DMT or psilocybin, they immediately WOULD HAVE reconized it as the lapus.

Dee and Kelley would hold magical ceremonies in which they would contact spirits, angels, demons and they dead, they even derived a language "enochian" from these ceremonies, there are several notebooks full of entity contact, even the dialogue between dee, kelley, and the spirit world and your trying to tell me that alchemists looking for the "materia prima" would not have interpreted DMT or psilocin as the lapus HAD they HAD it?!


Kelley died trying to sneak out of Rudolph the seconds castle, Kelley claimed he could perform the "opus" and Rudolph basically refused to let Kelley and dee leave until this feat was performed...any way just prior to Kelley and Dee's arrival Rudolph bought an unreadable book at an rxtremeley high price, said to be related to bacon in some way, any way after some archaeological research in the matter it seems entirley possible that this book was written by dee, I'm not going into details here because nothing is conscusive, but if dee was the author there was obvious plant reference, I'm NOT saying the had ANYTHING to do with psychedelics, but these alchemists most definantly had interest in plants and metals and body fluids...(the book was the voynich manuscript, Rudolph came into possession of it at the time when dee was in the kingdom, and in one of Dee's journal he wrote that at that time he had come into a sum of money equal to what Rudolph had paid for the book, now this doesn't me dee wrote it, but if he sold it to Rudolph he would have been familiar with it.

Phosphorus was discovered by an alchemist attempting to derive the "materia prima " from human urine, these alchemists through out all periods of alchemy were interested in natural substances, which they would mix, boil, reduce, etc...in search of the lapus, so to say Kelley and dee had nothing to do with plants is absurd, OBVIOUSLY they had NOTHING to do with psychedelics! Jesus, I shouldn't have to even say that.


Everything I said above should have been unnecessary, please be sure you have read and understand the material before you attempt to comment on it.


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Offlinedormiens_vagila
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Re: while sleeping, be vigilant [Re: dormiens_vagila]
    #22201320 - 09/07/15 10:10 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

As for what you said about the phrase "dormiens vagila"
Quote:

  Ive always taken "dormeins vagila" to mean "while in States of hallucination, pay attention" ,though this phrase has other meanings to me as well I love the potential triple and quadruple entendre these simple Latin phrases possess.




Tripple and quadruple entendre means that I can derive 3 to 4 meanings out of that single phrase, I know its history and I know what it means, it would be fairly foolish of me to have made the initial post if I didn't. I said I ALWAYS interpreted it as "while in States of hallucination, pay attention" as well as its original meaning and a few more of my own, its a phrase that fits MY practice, and though that sounds like a drug reference it goes FAR beyond that, sleep, mystical experiances, day dreams, these are all states of hallucination...so do you see what I meant here?:
Quote:

  Ive always taken "dormeins vagila" to mean "while in States of hallucination, pay attention" ,though this phrase has other meanings to me as well I love the potential triple and quadruple entendre these simple Latin phrases possess.




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Offlinedormiens_vagila
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Re: while sleeping, be vigilant [Re: dormiens_vagila]
    #22201348 - 09/07/15 10:22 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

This has nothing to do with me projecting anything on the situation, study alchemy in depth, then study shamanism in depth, then maticulously compare the practices to one another, I find it rather easy to see how alchemy is shamanism only the alchemist were seeking the stone and the shamans had it, the stone being DMT or psilocybin.

...and had the alchemist HAD the stone, it WOULD have been incredibly advanced shamanism being practiced by incredibly well educated men. We have all seen the amazing things rain Forrest natives have done with ayahuasca, imagine if the alchemists had this capability, with their advanced philosophy's already in place, high degree of education, and accesss to the knowledge of the modern world at that time, it would have spawned an advanced shamanism like we have never known on this planet.

This isn't even an abstract metaphors, unless your one of those who accepts the mainstream inaccurate notion that the goal of shamanism was to transform lead to gold....though transforming lead into gold is an amazing metaphors for what they were doing spiritually and psychologically.


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Offlinedormiens_vagila
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Re: while sleeping, be vigilant [Re: dormiens_vagila]
    #22201383 - 09/07/15 10:36 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

  He (khunrath) followed Paracelsian beliefs of divine initation into wisdom. He worked to develop Christianized natural magic; he sought to find the secret primary matter that would lead humankind into eternal wisdom.




And you don't think khunrath WOULD have reconized DMT or psilocybin mushrooms as this "materia prima " as the "lapus philosophorum" as this "matter that would lead humankind into eternal wisdom"?


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: while sleeping, be vigilant [Re: dormiens_vagila]
    #22210000 - 09/08/15 10:54 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

I read your preoccupation with your discovery of psychedelics, which are obviously still the best thing since sliced bread. And like a lot of other newbies, you want to attribute psychedelic experiences to anyone who seems interesting to you when the more important thing would be for you to understand the breadth and depth of Dr. Dee's interests. He was a Renaissance man with one of the largest private libraries of anyone in his day, and a mastery of astronomy, mathematics, and a number of other things not to mention his occult experiments. But...all you can come up with is that IF Dee had psychedelic mushrooms, he would've fallen head-over-heels for the experience, and would have decided that it was the Stone of the Philosophers.

Psychedelic experiences rarely yield unmediated Pure Consciousness Events, so given the Constructivist School's emphasis on set and setting, Dee might have had enormously negative and demonic experiences. Albert Hofmann freaked on his first trip. He didn't have Beatles singing songs from Sgt. Pepper's or the Grateful Dead encouraging soaring states of mind. :lol: He had the court of Elizabeth I, and his criminal companion Edward Kelly who had manipulated Dee from the outset, even convincing Dee that Angels had requested that they swap wives (Dee had a hot young wife, Kelly, not so much). Moreover, Kelly, at any rate, thought the Stone to be a magickally physical substance not a spiritualized notion of the Stone. Read http://www.amazon.com/Alchemical-Writings-Edward-Kelly/dp/1162559721/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1441774295&sr=8-1&keywords=the+alchemical+writings+of+edward+kelly .  So, I did not exactly misread your post, but took issue with the all-too-common post-modern assumptions you held.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: while sleeping, be vigilant [Re: dormiens_vagila]
    #22210075 - 09/08/15 11:09 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

You really need to know who you are responding to here bud. I'd also suggest to stay on topic. I am pretty conversant with the history of Dee and Kelly, and with the Enochian magick they experimented with. But you seem to be holding a dialogue with yourself (despite quoting my words above). I never said a thing about the substances the alchemists worked with, only that relatively new entheogen enthusiasts tend to see it everywhere, and when they don't, they assume or presume that IF they had encountered them, the European alchemists would have embraced them along the same line as moderns.

Dee is not Khunrath, is not Hennig Brandt (who distilled Phosphorus from human urine) and did not attribute the Philosopher's Stone to his discovery, although I do find it humorous that the chemical formula for the element Phosphorus (Light-Bearer in Greek, Lucifer is Latin), is 'P.'






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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Invisiblechampinhom
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Re: while sleeping, be vigilant [Re: dormiens_vagila]
    #22213390 - 09/09/15 05:27 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

"lapus philosophorum"




Lapis philosophorum


--------------------
My father used to say: I don't care what else you do in life, just don't be an asshole. People, forgive me when I forget what my daddy said.

Cut back the proliferating list of people whose opinions can hurt you. Unless they have done or want to do you some good, their views are just not worth tracking.
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Those whom the gods would save, they dower with compassion. Mr. P.  Silocybin


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Offlinedormiens_vagila
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Re: while sleeping, be vigilant [Re: champinhom]
    #22225341 - 09/12/15 12:53 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

I was not trying to be rude but its frustrating when people fail to understand you.

I still feel I have Been misunderstood.

it doesn't feel like you were even responding to anything I actually wrote.

Its seems that you believe Kelley to be a con man?

Its said kelly had no ears, meaning he commited some infraction involving theiving or conning others, and I'm sure he was good at what he did, but if he was that great of a con-man he would not have died trying to sneak out of rudolphs castle, dee, was set free.

Dee may have been an elezebethian spy, using alchemy as a means to get into the courts of foreign kingdoms, reporting back to elezebeth in code...

Its said he spent 3 days with the stenographica of Trithemius making copy after copy of its pages by hand...

And this relates to my initial point, when I was young I loved this film:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjCjwZfyyBM

The alchemical dream rebirth of the great work.


And that's what this was about, alchemy relating to shamanism, im not the one preoccupied with drugs, entheogens are a crucial piece of shsmanism, but were only a very very small part of my point, I was pointing out that shamanism is alchemy, only they have been in possession of the Lapis for quite some time.

I have Been practicing a form of entheogenic shamanism for quite sometime, and I can understand how it perfectly relates to alchemy, instead of trying to focus on the entheogens, focus on the comparison of the philosophy's and the very particular goals they had in mind.

And yes from the day I found them I have reconized entheogens as the spiritual tool that they are and even after all these years my reverence for them has not diminished, you don't transcend the tools of your spiritual practice, but at the same time you need not use them often.


Give it a chance, you will see what I'm talking about













Trithemius


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Offlinedormiens_vagila
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Re: while sleeping, be vigilant [Re: dormiens_vagila]
    #22225364 - 09/12/15 01:00 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

  Dee is not Khunrath, is not Hennig Brandt (who distilled Phosphorus from human urine) and did not attribute the Philosopher's Stone to his discovery, although I do find it humorous that the chemical formula for the element Phosphorus (Light-Bearer in Greek, Lucifer is Latin), is '




What are you taking about?

I never said he (btandt) attributed it to the philosophers stone, I said he was looking for the materia prima in human urine, he thought he could derive gold from piss basically.

Please specifically site where I said any of that. I know dee is not kunrath is not Brandt, I never said anything to that effect.

I was connecting the philosophies of these people shamanism, these specific alchemists share certian philosophical traits and goals that reslates them to this.

I'm not sure why you assume that I'm new to any of this, but its fairly insulting, and I don't mind if the things I say are criticized, but your not even criticizing things I said, I don't know where your getting this stuff from.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: while sleeping, be vigilant [Re: dormiens_vagila]
    #22225465 - 09/12/15 01:38 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

You're easily insulted, and cannot take simple instruction (like addressing the correct person to be the recipient of your message) let alone criticism. Consider checking what you've written before posting so that the properly addressed recipient doesn't have to guess at addressee (or grammar, spelling and punctuation for that matter). You are referring to a discipline that is intended to purify and perfect one's character, turning that which is base into that which is noble. Begin with enhanced clarity - it matters!

You don't understand where I'm getting "this" from? You're combining historically unrelated disciplines in the same breath, namely alchemy and shamanism and then getting pissy about the criticism that you are uncritically combining relationships that YOU have idiosyncratically connected in your mind. It's like saying that Mircea Eliade didn't need to write The Forge and the Crucible: The Origins and Structure of Alchemy AND Shamanism: Archaic Techniques of Ecstasy. He should have combined both topics in one book. :lol: I often make mistakes and others are quick to correct me. I actually appreciate criticism especially if done in the spirit of correction and with respect. I try not to feel butt-hurt, but if I did it would only be because my security-based butt-chakra has experienced insecurity. I consider accurate criticism to be more like a kyosaku stick used to whack sleepy Zen meditators to greater alertness, and like the meditator who is in a zendo to learn, I don't take criticism as a personal affront any more than a meditator who receives a shoulder-smack from the Ino who wields the kyosaku does.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Re: while sleeping, be vigilant [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #22225564 - 09/12/15 02:43 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
my security-based butt-chakra




Lol, I didn't know we had one of them!!


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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Re: while sleeping, be vigilant [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #22226767 - 09/12/15 11:51 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Jokeshopbeard said:
Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
my security-based butt-chakra




Lol, I didn't know we had one of them!!




Security, survival, self-preservation at the Muladhara chakra in the peritoneum, between genitals and anus. If one's survival is sufficiently threatened, this 4-petal chakra opens suddenly along with the corresponding physical opening of one's anal sphincter and behold - one shit's one's pants! :lol:


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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