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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Trump [Re: Enlil]
    #23598578 - 08/31/16 06:50 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
What does it matter?  You make shit up and post it as if it's true.

Bottom line:  America pays off debt every single day.



and then incurs more debt. so day to day it pays off and then starts a new debt. brilliant. pay it off every day, every day it's still there. what a way to run the gamut.


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Re: Trump [Re: akira_akuma]
    #23598580 - 08/31/16 06:51 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Yeah, but it isn't the fact that they have debt that matters.  Like I said, debt can be an advantage.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Trump [Re: Enlil]
    #23598586 - 08/31/16 06:53 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

right, and i partially agree. i'm clearly not an economist, but i understand the concept that the debt allows us to grow. that's sorta what i've been getting at. people who want to "pay off the debt" are not really getting the whole process, just as much as i can imagine many people don't exactly get the entire process.

just because i am here trying to figure shit out, doesn't mean i am trying to cause confusion. i operate under the assumption that i'm right. what the fuck do you do? assume you're wrong?


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Re: Trump [Re: akira_akuma]
    #23598594 - 08/31/16 06:54 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

To an extent.  Debt CAN be an advantage.  It can also be crippling.  It all depends on how it's used.

Operating on the assumption that you're right is sure to lead you astray.  Operate on the assumption that everything you believe is a hunch.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Trump [Re: Enlil]
    #23598598 - 08/31/16 06:55 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

well, i'd love to see where the line is drawn. so i keep my eyes open. i'm not an economist, that shit takes time and energy i dedicate to other endeavors. but i still like to learn what i can. i learn by opening my mouth and my ears.

Quote:

Operating on the assumption that you're right is sure to lead you astray.  Operate on the assumption that everything you believe is a hunch.




i'll take that into consideration. sounds more like what is appropriate. i don't mind being wrong, so i guess that's why i don't mind operating under said assumption; but saying it's a hunch, sounds more plausible. so thanks.


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Re: Trump [Re: akira_akuma]
    #23598602 - 08/31/16 06:57 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

In the most basic terms, if the interest on that debt is less than the added benefit by taking on the debt, it's a good debt.

If you lend me $100 at 5% interest, and I use that to take advantage of a 10% off sale on an item I need, I've used that debt to an advantage.  If I put it in the bank to earn 1% profit, I've used it to a disadvantage.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Trump [Re: Enlil]
    #23598611 - 08/31/16 07:00 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

i see. business = useful, profiting

saving money from low-interest loans = useless, and you end up unable to fund anything more due to hemorrhaging (if one were to continue), that is if you've the money at all to lose.

i think i've got the nomenclature now.


Edited by akira_akuma (08/31/16 07:09 PM)


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Trump [Re: Enlil]
    #23598643 - 08/31/16 07:11 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Last time we raised more in taxes than we spent, the debt still went up.



You've peaked my interest.  When was that?




1998-2001



Ah ok.  I guess it depends on whether you count debt the government owes itself, which I consider meaningless (it can cancel that at any time with no impact).  Real federal debt (public debt) went down, while gross federal debt didn't.  :smirk:


--------------------
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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Trump [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23598673 - 08/31/16 07:19 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

when am i gonna get my money?

i guess when the government stops needing it...........so never.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Trump [Re: akira_akuma]
    #23598679 - 08/31/16 07:21 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

What money are you talking about by "my money"?  If you have a job you'll get it on payday.


--------------------
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Re: Trump [Re: akira_akuma] * 1
    #23598721 - 08/31/16 07:31 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

If you lent the government money, you'll get it on the bond maturity date.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Trump [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23598738 - 08/31/16 07:37 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

i was making a point. the money owed is obviously not the money spent. spending goes up, debt continues to trail and is not recovered. i suppose there are options at this point, and none which are agreed upon as a "solution". like raising taxes, ala, your proposed solution, right, Falcon?

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-05-11/how-to-tell-facts-about-the-debt-from-political-hype

this sounds like an interesting article to me, by the by. i'll peruse it.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Trump [Re: akira_akuma]
    #23598868 - 08/31/16 08:05 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
i suppose there are options at this point, like raising taxes, ala, your proposed solution, right, Falcon?

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-05-11/how-to-tell-facts-about-the-debt-from-political-hype



"MY" solution???  I don't think I'm the only person that's thought of that.  In fact, it's one of the five solutions in your article.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Trump [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23598917 - 08/31/16 08:20 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

hold on, hold on, i am just inferring from your post, what, not but a few pages ago.
edit: MY ARTICLE???
Quote:

Congress simply needs to raise more in taxes than it spends.




you guys, i know i'm an infinite pleb when it comes to financing, economics, and numbers, but i'm only going by what i've seen in this forum, mostly. not the best way to learn, but the only way i give a damn. so if you can't explain how my propositions are absurd, well, damn, sorry. i'm not trying to obfuscate the issue, it's just i have a limited understanding of the nomenclature and, frankly, the financial market's design. i've never concerned myself with it's inner workings.

all i know is people keep saying "the debt is too high, it's effecting us all" and i keep thinking, yeah, it's all intrinsically tied together; things are made, people spend, debt is paid, things are made, people spend, debt is paid, rinse and repeat.

i am saying there is no way to fix this system, save, grow more people, perhaps in tubes, or make a campaign to encourage lots of sex, to procreate, and get more human plugs. or simply put more money into the system, through whatever various means there is to do that. but someone always comes back with a complaint like "my taxes are too high, and these people don't wanna play fair!"

they blame the government, and whomever else, the rich, the poor, everyone but themselves for not innovating. :shrug:

i have heard tell of the possibility of throwing essentially too much spending money at growth, and that leading to an economic downturn, as well. though i don't know how true that is, that would clarify that there is no escaping the cycle of debt that we're in.

frankly. to me, none of it is worth it, personally. i'm laissez faire kind of guy. i want to innovate and make my own money, without needing to pay into shit fuck all.

whatever.
@Enlil, you should know everything. explain this shit to me succinctly. you'll be paid in good vibes.


Edited by akira_akuma (08/31/16 09:32 PM)


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OfflineCrumist
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Re: Trump [Re: akira_akuma] * 2
    #23599033 - 08/31/16 08:49 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I would argue all debt is "bad debt" but now we are back to semantics. Being able to attend college
before saving up the $30,000 is a good thing, and a superior investment to a $30,000 shoe collection
on a credit card, but the fact you now owe $60,000 is an intrinsically bad thing. Being owed $60,000
is almost certainly a good thing.

If reducing the federal debt requires revenues in excess of expenditures, I see two obvious options.
Increase revenues (taxes) or decrease expenditures. If have to imagine any politically palatable option
Will involve both


--------------------
'I am all for resources being allocated to the widowed single mother of 3, lost husband over seas fighting for our country. I am for vets getting mental health access and resources following war. I am not for free money cause a woman can't close her legs or some chump with low testosterone no going to work cause "i'm sad."' -finalexplosion
Nice knowin ya'll! https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23904704/vc/1#23904704


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Trump [Re: Crumist]
    #23599047 - 08/31/16 08:56 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Being able to attend college
before saving up the $30,000 is a good thing




i was thinking something similar along those lines, too.

this is similar to a jigsaw puzzle...when one piece is switched out, it can be said that the whole picture changes. it's just that what one piece is most warranted a switch?

or perhaps more than one, but i wouldn't know for sure. perhaps someone more coordinated can switch out not just two things, but four things, or eight things. i believe the term is "re-structuring", in this instance.


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OfflineCrumist
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Re: Trump [Re: akira_akuma]
    #23599074 - 08/31/16 09:04 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Okay now Im lost again. You were doing a metaphor and I was struggling to
see where you were going and then you went ahead and said "restructuring"
which, to me, is a term related to markets. EDIT: debt

Iz confused


--------------------
'I am all for resources being allocated to the widowed single mother of 3, lost husband over seas fighting for our country. I am for vets getting mental health access and resources following war. I am not for free money cause a woman can't close her legs or some chump with low testosterone no going to work cause "i'm sad."' -finalexplosion
Nice knowin ya'll! https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23904704/vc/1#23904704


Edited by Crumist (08/31/16 09:04 PM)


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Trump [Re: Crumist]
    #23599091 - 08/31/16 09:10 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

re·struc·tur·ing
rēˈstrək(t)SHəriNG/
noun
noun: restructuring; plural noun: restructurings; noun: re-structuring; plural noun: re-structurings
COMMERCE
a reorganization of a company with a view to achieving greater efficiency and profit, or to adapt to a changing market.
re·struc·ture
rēˈstrək(t)SHər/
verb
gerund or present participle: restructuring
organize differently.
"a plan to strengthen and restructure the department"
FINANCE
convert (the debt of a business in difficulty) into another kind of debt, typically one that is repayable at a later time


i'm talking about converting debt into another kind of debt, or in terms of the jigzaw puzzle that is the civic undertaking, take finances from one place and putting it to another, and as i said, "switch them out".

and yeah, it was a metaphor.


Edited by akira_akuma (08/31/16 09:31 PM)


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Offlineqman
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Re: Trump [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23600768 - 09/01/16 11:01 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
What kind of credit growth do you believe isn't rising?  It's rising across the board.  We're not in a liquidity trap, as you claimed.




http://www.wsj.com/articles/big-banks-cut-back-on-small-business-1448586637

Small business loans down significantly in recent years, this is the heart of the economic engine.

http://seekingalpha.com/article/3987941-weak-global-credit-growth-keeps-rates-low-risk-assets-risk-period-longer

We are all tied into a global economy and it's not a good story.

http://fortune.com/2016/07/07/bill-gross-low-interest-rates/

"central banks should have realized what is ailing the economy is an overall lack of growth in 'credit' or the expansion of the money supply that comes mostly in the form of increased bank lending. Credit growth which averaged 9% a year since the beginning of this century barely reaches 4% annualized in most quarters now, Gross writes. And why isn't that enough? Well the proof's in the pudding or the annualized GDP numbers both here and abroad."



None of those articles show a liquidity trap.  And all three show growing credit growth, albeit not as much as would be ideal.




According to Gross it does- "once again, reiterates in a world without any new exogenous money creation (endogenous money created by central bankers has been stuck in liquidity traps like capital markets) and thus without any pick up in the velocity of money- a key component of GDP- economic growth is limited at best, and stagnant or negative in practice...if banks don't lend, either because of risk to them or an unwillingness of corporations and individuals to borrow money, then credit growth doesn't increase"  http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-07-06/bill-gross-says-yellen-worships-falls-idols-so-worry-about-return-your-money-not-it


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OfflineDouglas Howard
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Re: Trump [Re: qman]
    #23601055 - 09/01/16 12:47 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)



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