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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Trump [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #22930502 - 02/21/16 03:52 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:

viktor said:
Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
I love the Bern, but $14 Trillion over 10 years to pay for universal health care? There is NO way even according to liberal Democratic experts to pay for that.



All of Sanders's proposals are well possible. It's just that American culture is based on shitting on the younger, poorer, dumber and weaker, and as such there is little political will to carry out the sort of things that other countries manage with ease.



I'm sure you haven't looked closely at the numbers.



Actually, we dove into the numbers starting here.  Bernie's plan is definitely doable.


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Re: Trump [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22930541 - 02/21/16 03:59 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Ive traveled quite a bit, mostly to Asia, and I don't believe any of this tripe about selfish Americans, I'm not selfish, I just don't want to support people who are lazy...



We're talking about healthcare here.  Do you think only lazy people need healthcare???  :wtf:


--------------------
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Re: Trump [Re: Loyola10]
    #22930564 - 02/21/16 04:03 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Loyola10 said:
Quote:

viktor said:
Quote:

Loyola10 said:
In any case if you remove the incentive for them to accumulate wealth society will suffer in the long haul.




How does society benefit from people hoarding wealth now?



The wealth is earned by providing a service to the public. Even the poor in america have cars air conditioning and televisions. A hundred years ago even a king could not have purchased such items. So the lower echelons benefit from the innovation. I aspire to be wealthy one day and run my own business. I'm not doing it because I want to lord it over people I am doing it because I have a unique idea and I will provide a service to the market. Take that away and you have stagnation. I get were you your coming from but people need to learn for themselves the right thing to do not be forced to do it through government edicts it defeats the purpose.



NO ONE wants to prevent anyone from making a lot of money.  The idea is that if you ever get filthy rich (and I hope you do), you need to pay a little more taxes.  You'll still get to be filthy rich.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Trump [Re: Loyola10] * 1
    #22931029 - 02/21/16 06:01 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Loyola10 said:
Quote:

viktor said:
NO ONE wants to prevent anyone from making a lot of money.  The idea is that if you ever get filthy rich (and I hope you do), you need to pay a little more taxes.  You'll still get to be filthy rich.



Oh well thats totally different. As long as market capitalism is still in place I'd be fine with paying a reasonable tax rate. Going all soviet russia though I think would be a bad idea and I see alot of leftists going down that road which makes me leery.



No one that I'm aware of on the political forum wants communism, yet most of the conservatives here like to make believe that we do.


--------------------
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Re: Trump [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22940998 - 02/24/16 01:51 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
http://taxfoundation.org/article/details-and-analysis-donald-trump-s-tax-plan

Quote:

Trump’s tax plan would substantially lower individual income taxes and the corporate income tax and eliminate a number of complex features in the current tax code.
Mr. Trump’s plan would cut taxes by $11.98 trillion over the next decade on a static basis. However, the plan would end up reducing tax revenues by $10.14 trillion over the next decade when accounting for economic growth from increases in the supply of labor and capital.
The plan would also result in increased outlays due to higher interest on the debt, creating a ten-year deficit somewhat larger than the estimates above.
According to the Tax Foundation’s Taxes and Growth Model, the plan would significantly reduce marginal tax rates and the cost of capital, which would lead to an 11 percent higher GDP over the long term provided that the tax cut could be appropriately financed.
The plan would also lead to a 29 percent larger capital stock, 6.5 percent higher wages, and 5.3 million more full-time equivalent jobs.
The plan would cut taxes and lead to higher after-tax incomes for taxpayers at all levels of income.






Was your post in support of Donald Trump or against?

"the plan would end up reducing tax revenues by $10.14 trillion over the next decade"
"The plan would also result in increased outlays due to higher interest on the debt, creating a ten-year deficit somewhat larger than the estimates above."

So Trump wants to raise the Federal deficit by over $10 trillion.  NO THANKS.


--------------------
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Re: Trump [Re: qman]
    #22941016 - 02/24/16 01:57 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
The point being is that SS is a pay as you go system, it works as long as people continue to work and contribute to the SS payroll tax.



Do you think people will stop working and paying into SS?  :shrug:

It may need additional money at some future point in time, which can easily be found by eliminating the cap for the wealthy that allows them to pay zero into SSI after they earn $118,500.


--------------------
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Re: Trump [Re: qman]
    #22941086 - 02/24/16 02:20 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
So Trump wants to raise the Federal deficit by over $10 trillion.  NO THANKS.




That's not Trump's analysis of the outcome of his tax plan. So it's disingenuous to suggest "Trump wants to raise the Federal deficit by over $10 trillion".



Correct, it's the Tax Foundation's analysis of Trump's plan that HU posted.  :shrug:


--------------------
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Re: Trump [Re: ballsalsa]
    #22941134 - 02/24/16 02:35 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

I believe qman is correct on this.

There was a huge trust fund surplus, which the Government "borrowed" from itself and spent.  Hence, the money is no longer there; only a big IOU.

The only way for the Government to repay this IOU is to collect it back from the taxpayer in the future (hopefully by removing the SSI cap on the rich).


--------------------
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Re: Trump [Re: ballsalsa]
    #22943209 - 02/25/16 01:02 AM (7 years, 10 months ago)

As you correctly noted, the treasury owes OASI ~$2.7 trillion.  But the treasury doesn't have that money - it gave it to Congress to spend.  That money is gone.  To pay those loans back, Congress would have to collect ~2.7 trillion in additional taxes.


--------------------
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Re: Trump [Re: ballsalsa]
    #22943295 - 02/25/16 01:52 AM (7 years, 10 months ago)

Exactly.

It's ridiculous for any of them to claim to have money.  That debt could just be written off, and we'd be in the exact same situation.  Social Security will eventually need additional money whether or not it has bonds to cash in.  Either way, the money would have to be collected in additional taxes.


--------------------
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Re: Trump [Re: ballsalsa]
    #22943378 - 02/25/16 02:42 AM (7 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
they could sell the bonds before they mature i guess? :shrug:



Those are "special issue" securities, which are not available to the public.  Hence, those bonds would need to be redeemed by the treasury, which would have to use current tax money to pay for them, whether cashed in before or at maturity.

Social Security is 'pay as you go', so the treasury always needs to raise the required amount of money from the taxpayer to pay for it each year, whether it buys back trust fund securities or not.

The ~$2.7 trillion would only be 'real' if it were held in some kind of Government savings account.  Does that make sense?  :shrug:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Trump [Re: ballsalsa]
    #22945875 - 02/25/16 05:45 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
...since Federal Reserve Notes are also backed by Treasury Bonds, it seems to me that even if SSI kept its reserves in cash, at the end of the day, that cash would still represent U.S. debt that would have to be repayed at some point by the taxpayers.



Not at all, because cash has already been collected from the taxpayer.  When SSI exchanges their excess cash for Treasury Bonds, Congress spends that cash, and then will have to recollect it from the taxpayer to pay it back to SSI.

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
The only real difference is that by holding the bonds instead of cash, SSI collects the interest instead of the Fed.



Treasury bond interest is just as meaningless to SSI as treasury bonds; it’s money that has to be collected from the taxpayer in the future.  Sure, SSI can claim the Treasury owes it a ton money plus interest if that makes it feel better, but the money doesn’t exist today because it’s all been spent.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (02/25/16 06:20 PM)


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Re: Trump [Re: starfire_xes]
    #22945877 - 02/25/16 05:45 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
Quote:

Webster10 said:
Quote:

starfire_xes said:
I thought this thread was about BLOWHARD? :confused:



Ted Cruz is a fucking idiot. Why do you want a fucking idiot as president?





Why would you support someone whow:

Sucks up to Big Ethanol

Tells us he will fight immigration but imports 1100 foreign workers to take american jobs

Tells everyone he doesn't know what Cruz is talking about  about Trump wanting the Federal Government to keep Federal Lands on states, when Trump told Field and Stream in an interview that 'he thinks the US Government should keep all those federal lands>?>

Hes a pathological liar.  Exactly what he accuses everyone else of,  He hasn't really discussed much about issues in the last 3 months, he just says something outrageous and then moves on before anyone fact checks him, or calls anyone who disputes him a liar.

The Press and people are eating this shit up and don't even question it.  You are being played like a violin.

One of my favorite lines: "When I want to get a rise out of people I bring up the wall"

Why dont you fact check the loud mouthed jackass? 

Maybe he will do what he said, but what he says is whatever people want to hear and no one questions him. I don't trust him as far as I could throw Hillary with one arm.



For what it's worth, I agree with starfire_xes's assessment of Trump.  :smirk:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Trump [Re: ballsalsa]
    #22947068 - 02/26/16 12:22 AM (7 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
i am failing to see the difference between the Treasury selling a bond to the Federal Reserve, then spending the cash and having to raise tax money to pay off the bond, and the Treasury selling bonds to SSI, then spending the cash and having to raise tax money to pay off the bond.  The only difference i can see is the interest on the bonds, since the money that was taken in in the first place is being replaced by the same value in bonds plus interest. so in terms of taxation, it should be a wash minus the interest.  what am i missing here?



Technically, the Treasury doesn't sell bonds to the Fed, it sells them to the general public (except for "special issue" bonds that are sold to the Social Security and Medicare Trust Funds).  But you're right in that they are similar.

The point is that if SSI kept the money in savings, it would be there for them to use in the future.  But instead the money is spent by Congress and converted into new debt.  So the money is no longer there anymore and it has to be raised by the taxpayer once again in the future.


In case you're wondering why the Fed owns trillions in Treasury bonds when I just said the Treasury doesn't sell them to the Fed, it's primarily because of quantitative easing, where the Fed purchases these from the banks in order to increase the money supply.  That, by the way, does NOT increase the debt, because the Fed does not buy them from the Treasury, and it also uses new money for that which it creates out of thin air.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (02/26/16 12:35 AM)


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Re: Trump [Re: ballsalsa]
    #22948261 - 02/26/16 11:34 AM (7 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
When you say that the Federal Reserve buys the notes from banks, what kind of banks are we talking about?  Also, if treasury notes are being claimed as assets to create money, doesn't that mean that these types of securities are essentially the same as cash?  Both the money, and the securities represent U.S. debt do they not?  If that is the case, and congress spends the "money" and issues bonds in its place, what is the difference?  the cash was just a marker in place of a treasury note (or some fraction thereof) in the first place and as such will have to be paid for with interest by taxpayers anyway.



Remember that the Treasury gets to keep Federal Reserve profits, including interest on Treasury bonds (less nominal dividends and operating expenses).  So Treasury bonds in the hands of the Fed isn't debt any more than Treasury bonds in the hands of SSI (even though it is counted as such).


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Trump [Re: starfire_xes]
    #22948267 - 02/26/16 11:36 AM (7 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
Did you see the debate--Rubio and Cruz fried Trump.  Trump was all red-faced, and instead of Cruz and Rubio taking the BS from Trump, they pulled his own crap on him.  He was completely owned and exposed as a BLOWHARD.



I did see that - it was impressive!


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Trump [Re: fivepointer]
    #22948628 - 02/26/16 01:40 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
You need to study history, the Smoot-Hawley Tariff in the 1930's was a key in making the Great Depression as horrible as it was.  Tariffs are bad policy, but Blowhard is too stupid to figure that out.



Other countries suffered because they didn't sell nearly as much to the US, and eventually "retaliatory" tariffs reduced US exports as well.

Today, even if international trade went to zero due to tariffs, the increase in our domestic production from what we used to import would be a lot more than the decrease from what we used to export, because we import a hell of a lot more than we export.

Hence, tariffs would result in a net gain in domestic production.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Trump [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22948645 - 02/26/16 01:46 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

...and domestic wages would skyrocket, because we would no longer have to compete with low wage competitors.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Trump [Re: qman]
    #22949339 - 02/26/16 05:09 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

:whathesaid:


--------------------
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Re: Trump [Re: starfire_xes]
    #22976124 - 03/05/16 03:04 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

Trump is getting crushed in Kansas right now...

Cruz - 48.8%
Trump - 25.9%
Rubio - 13.7%
Kasich - 9.9%

with 31% reporting


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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