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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Trump [Re: hostileuniverse] * 1
    #22935636 - 02/22/16 10:23 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
You're assuming Americans don't already do this, we are charitable, just some of us don't want it to be through govt.





Do you know why Social Security was enacted?  It was because charity isn't reliable, and the country had huge problem with crippling poverty among the elderly.  Unlike relying on charity, by funding SSI through a payroll tax, the govt forced everyone to have some skin in the game and to take some responsibility for their old age.  Unlike charity, SSI was and still is wildly and reliably successful at its primary purpose, which is to keep the elderly from being homeless and starving.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Trump [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22937186 - 02/23/16 12:15 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
You're assuming Americans don't already do this, we are charitable, just some of us don't want it to be through govt.





Do you know why Social Security was enacted?  It was because charity isn't reliable, and the country had huge problem with crippling poverty among the elderly.  Unlike relying on charity, by funding SSI through a payroll tax, the govt forced everyone to have some skin in the game and to take some responsibility for their old age.  Unlike charity, SSI was and still is wildly and reliably successful at its primary purpose, which is to keep the elderly from being homeless and starving.




Social security is a Ponzi scheme, the same thing that sent Bernie Madoff to prison...




no it isn't.  SSI is old age insurance.  You pay in while you are working, and you get paid after you retire from the workforce.  Your benefit totals correlate directly to the wages you earned in the workforce (from whence your contribution came). 

so, now that that is over with, would you care to address my point about the difference between social programs and charity?

Quote:

Do you know why Social Security was enacted?  It was because charity isn't reliable, and the country had huge problem with crippling poverty among the elderly.  Unlike relying on charity, by funding SSI through a payroll tax, the govt forced everyone to have some skin in the game and to take some responsibility for their old age.  Unlike charity, SSI was and still is wildly and reliably successful at its primary purpose, which is to keep the elderly from being homeless and starving.




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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Trump [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22937742 - 02/23/16 03:29 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Sure, if social security taxes were allowed to be invested, instead of put into the general fund of greedy politicians, the elderly would come out much better off.

You can yap all day about the failures of "charity" but what you'll never admit to is the failure of govt in this instance. The money that was supposed to be used for social security, was raided and spent. It was a betrayal of the American people. The money being given out today is being borrowed from the taxpayers who haven't even been born yet.




Jesus christ, how many times do we have to go over this?  SSI has a trust fund that is REQUIRED to invest in US Treasury products.  The money isn't just put into a "general fund".  The money being paid out today is being paid from that trust fund, not by borrowing anything from anyone.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Trump [Re: qman]
    #22940218 - 02/24/16 09:36 AM (7 years, 10 months ago)

at the end of FY2014, the OASI trust fund balance was ~2.7 trillion dollars

https://www.ssa.gov/oact/STATS/table4a1.html


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Trump [Re: qman]
    #22940365 - 02/24/16 10:31 AM (7 years, 10 months ago)

i assume that you are implying that the government accounting is fraudulent.
do you have some other numbers to dispute them with?


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Re: Trump [Re: qman]
    #22940530 - 02/24/16 11:28 AM (7 years, 10 months ago)

from your second link.

Quote:

On the recommendation of Treasury Secretary Henry Morgenthau, the Social Security Amendments of 1939 created an Old Age and Survivors’ Insurance Trust Fund at the Treasury. This was done for the express purpose of ending the controversy. Testifying before the Senate Finance Committee during the hearings on the amendments, Social Security Board Chairman Arthur Altmeyer stated that the purpose of the trust fund was “to allay the unwarranted fears of some people who thought Uncle Sam was embezzling the money.”

Social Security revenues go into the Treasury’s general fund and are automatically credited to the Trust Fund in the form of Treasury bonds. The Treasury pays Social Security benefits and administrative outlays out of general revenue and debits the Trust Fund an equivalent value of bonds. Any leftover Social Security revenue finances general government operations, with an equivalent value of bonds remaining in the Trust Fund as Social Security’s “surplus;” to cover any revenue shortfalls.19 This is how a Treasury account, not a trust fund, works. And calling a Treasury account a “trust fund” to influence public opinion does not make it one.




ok, so it is called a trust fund, but it isn't(?) a trust fund?  fine. The fund is invested in treasury products? yeah, i said that already. In fact, this whole article simply describes what i explained earlier in greater detail, so thanks, good post!  from now on lets refer to the OASI trust fund as the OASI Treasury account.

Now, from your first link

Quote:

The United States Social Security Administration collects payroll taxes and uses the money collected to pay Old-Age, Survivors, and Disability Insurance benefits via trust funds.

When the program runs a surplus, there will be excess funding available for the Social Security Administration that year. The excess funds are diverted to one of the trust funds.

The money in the trust fund is used by the treasury in the form of treasury bonds. The treasury bonds provide interest on the money in the trust funds, and if the program sees a deficit, the excess funds from previous years plus any interest earned is used to pay beneficiaries. The trust funds do not represent a legal obligation to Social Security program recipients, and Congress could cut or raise taxes on such benefits if it chooses.

The trust fund that supports Social Security's disability program is projected to run out of money late next year, triggering automatic benefit cuts, unless Congress acts.





Mostly the same stuff here, though they mention in a roundabout way that OASI and SSDI "Treasury accounts" are held separate by law.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Trump [Re: qman]
    #22941051 - 02/24/16 02:09 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

so we're all in agreement then?


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Re: Trump [Re: qman]
    #22941112 - 02/24/16 02:27 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
so we're all in agreement then?




I don't believe there's a "trust fund" with $2.3 trillion worth of value, it's stuffed with nothing more than IOU's.

I guess one the long term problems SS is going to face is the changing demographics and the increasing life expectancy. So it's a fact that SS will run into major funding deficits, at that point it's up to the government on how to solve it.




it is probably worth mentioning that those are the same IOU's that are backing the Federal Reserve Notes in your wallet.  Would you make the same argument that those Federal Reserve Notes are just worthless IOUs?  What should SSI invest surpluses in instead? Gold?


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Re: Trump [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22943084 - 02/25/16 12:03 AM (7 years, 10 months ago)

Payroll taxes are paid in to fund OASI and SSDI.  In some years(when wages are high and unemployment is low), more money comes in than is paid out in benefits.  Any surplus is required by law to be invested in Treasury Bonds, bills, and notes.  This investment is essentially the same as loaning money to the treasury.  Where the "double tax" comes in is that the interest on this loan(bonds), which was paid for by the surplus payroll revenues, has to be paid with taxes when the bonds are cashed out.  OASI currently has assets equaling ~2.7 trillion, or enough to cover projected spending for a couple decades. SSDI is almost broke and is scheduled to run out of money later this year.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Trump [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22943265 - 02/25/16 01:34 AM (7 years, 10 months ago)

just like it does with every bond that it issues, including the ones issued to the USPS retirement fund and the Federal Reserve


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Re: Trump [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22943305 - 02/25/16 01:59 AM (7 years, 10 months ago)

they could sell the bonds before they mature i guess? :shrug:
in either case, the cap needs to be lifted sooner or later.


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Re: Trump [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22944154 - 02/25/16 09:59 AM (7 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
they could sell the bonds before they mature i guess? :shrug:



Those are "special issue" securities, which are not available to the public.  Hence, those bonds would need to be redeemed by the treasury, which would have to use current tax money to pay for them, whether cashed in before or at maturity.

Social Security is 'pay as you go', so the treasury always needs to raise the required amount of money from the taxpayer to pay for it each year, whether it buys back trust fund securities or not.

The ~$2.7 trillion would only be 'real' if it were held in some kind of Government savings account.  Does that make sense?  :shrug:




The part about the special issue securities, sure.  But since Federal Reserve Notes are also backed by Treasury Bonds, it seems to me that even if SSI kept its reserves in cash, at the end of the day, that cash would still represent U.S. debt that would have to be repayed at some point by the taxpayers.  The only real difference is that by holding the bonds instead of cash, SSI collects the interest instead of the Fed.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Trump [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22946769 - 02/25/16 10:06 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
...since Federal Reserve Notes are also backed by Treasury Bonds, it seems to me that even if SSI kept its reserves in cash, at the end of the day, that cash would still represent U.S. debt that would have to be repayed at some point by the taxpayers.



Not at all, because cash has already been collected from the taxpayer.  When SSI exchanges their excess cash for Treasury Bonds, Congress spends that cash, and then will have to recollect it from the taxpayer to pay it back to SSI.

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
The only real difference is that by holding the bonds instead of cash, SSI collects the interest instead of the Fed.



Treasury bond interest is just as meaningless to SSI as treasury bonds; it’s money that has to be collected from the taxpayer in the future.  Sure, SSI can claim the Treasury owes it a ton money plus interest if that makes it feel better, but the money doesn’t exist today because it’s all been spent.




I get what you're saying i think, but wouldn't the same thing be true of any bond that the Treasury issued?  In other words, i am failing to see the difference between the Treasury selling a bond to the Federal Reserve, then spending the cash and having to raise tax money to pay off the bond, and the Treasury selling bonds to SSI, then spending the cash and having to raise tax money to pay off the bond.  The only difference i can see is the interest on the bonds, since the money that was taken in in the first place is being replaced by the same value in bonds plus interest. so in terms of taxation, it should be a wash minus the interest.  what am i missing here?


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Re: Trump [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22947105 - 02/26/16 12:42 AM (7 years, 10 months ago)

When you say that the Federal Reserve buys the notes from banks, what kind of banks are we talking about? Also, if treasury notes are being claimed as assets to create money, doesn't that mean that these types of securities are essentially the same as cash?  Both the money, and the securities represent U.S. debt do they not?  If that is the case, and congress spends the "money" and issues bonds in its place, what is the difference?  the cash was just a marker in place of a treasury note (or some fraction thereof) in the first place and as such will have to be paid for with interest by taxpayers anyway.


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Re: Trump [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #22949357 - 02/26/16 05:15 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:


I think the US could live with higher prices if we get higher employment and wages, that's a no brainer.




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Re: Trump [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 3
    #23000171 - 03/12/16 04:59 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

don't sell yourself short fal; the average bear is probably about as smart as Shins.


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Re: Trump [Re: Webster10]
    #23280546 - 05/28/16 09:41 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)



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Re: Trump [Re: Peteyboy]
    #23607258 - 09/03/16 08:51 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Peteyboy said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Nothing like the self crowned intellectual elite of this sub using a 300 analogy to justify their candidate. :facepalm:


Is anyone gonna explain the intracacies of these policy positions to me?




Just because there is a movie on the subject doesn't mean it isn't one of the most historically significant battles of history.

I didnt crown myself an intellectual elite. I'm no elitist in any sense.

But what's funny is I'm here trying to have an intelligent discussion and you are here to question people's intellect, but you cant spell intricacies... even with spell check at your finger tips... :shrug:

If your so smart you should be able to figure out the intricacies yourself, just by using google to search the internet and do some reading.




Thermopylae is not one of the most historically significant battles of history.  Hell, it isn't even the most significant battle of that invasion.  Sure, it is symbolically interesting, but the Persian invasion was actually stopped at the naval battle of Salamis.


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Re: Trump [Re: Peteyboy]
    #23607353 - 09/03/16 09:33 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Peteyboy said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:

Thermopylae is not one of the most historically significant battles of history.  Hell, it isn't even the most significant battle of that invasion.  Sure, it is symbolically interesting, but the Persian invasion was actually stopped at the naval battle of Salamis.




I believe this is arguable. Thermopylae is extremely historically significant. This battle is studied meticulously at West point along with many other historically significant battles. It marked the beginning of the invasion of Greece by the Persians. Which as you said led to much greater naval battles in which the Greeks were victorious. But the historical symbolism is significant, I'm afraid much more so then your giving it credit.




I didn't say that it hasn't been studied extensively.  I did say that it was not historically significant, primarily because it did not produce any decisive result.    Like the Battle of Marathon a decade earlier, Thermopylae is primarily studied because:

a) It is one of the earlier, well documented battles of western history

b) It is a cool story.


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Re: Trump [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #23608700 - 09/03/16 05:04 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

Peteyboy said:
What about the wall would you like to discuss?




How is the US going to force Mexico to pay for it

How much will it cost us to build, maintain, and staff

How much will it stem illegal immigration and smuggling in general

Is it cost efficient




Most Americans don't give a fuck who pays for the wall, Trump said the wall would cost $12 billion, experts are calling for $15 to $25 billion, so be it.

"Is it cost efficient"

How come you never worried about the $130 billion PER YEAR illegals and their children cost US taxpayers?  Deporting illegals and buying a wall is cheap relative to having them live in the US, the wall offers an excellent return on investment.




Exactly, isn't it funny how fiscally conservative progressives become when it comes to a program they oppose?

Yes, they can make Mexico pay for it with a variety of different tactics, taxing remittances to Mexico, tarriffs, and trade deals. Only progressives think it's gonna be Mexico "giving us a check" how fucking dumb:facepalm:




Taxing remittances wouldn't cost Mexico anything, it would cost the people who send the remittances be they Americans, Mexicans, or what have you.

Tariffs also would not cost Mexico anything, though Exporters in Mexico, and perhaps the end users would have to pony up some dough.

Trade deals is a pretty vague term, so i'm not gonna touch that one.

what else have you got?


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