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Frog
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Thief
#2219557 - 01/05/04 01:12 AM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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I was talking to a friend tonight. I was helping her move. I pulled a printer down off of her closet shelf, and asked her if it worked. She said yes, and that if I wanted to borrow it, go ahead, because she had a printer from work that she "took".
Here's what bothered me:
I know about karma. I also know what the bible teaches. I think about how where ever we choose the "low road", we will be paying for it somewhere in the future, or we may have to come back and learn the lessons that we didn't learn. Everything we do impacts us, whether in this life or in the next.
Do you steal? Not many people think that it's stealing when they take something from their place of employment. Entitlement?
Or how about this....
Is this stealing? Would this affect you? You move into a new apartment, and you plug the cable line into your T.V., and you discover that you have "free" cable. Do you keep the free cable? Do you call the cable company and notify them that you are receiving free cable and want to switch to being billed?
Are you a thief? Are you borrowing? Are you entitled? Do you even think about it?
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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Positronius
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2219621 - 01/05/04 01:39 AM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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karma, the bible?
ehh, no objective truth to that stuff, its all your personal psychology, friend.
north america was stolen from its natives, are you giving anything back to them?
corporations make mass profit off theft constantly, is stealing from them truly theft?
-------------------- and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll
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Frog
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That's not the point, pos. Not for the purposes of this thread. Buddy.
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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Positronius
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2219632 - 01/05/04 01:45 AM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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capitalism functions through the fucking-over of people who supply labour. sometimes not, but many times - yes. do you dig? thats my point, in a land of thieves does theft even exist? theft laws only exist to protect the thieves = the rich. sure, not all rich are thieves, but many are.
-------------------- and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll
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Frog
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I'm talking about taking things that don't belong to you.
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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Positronius
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2219646 - 01/05/04 01:54 AM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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duhh, really? so-am-I.
what is your belief on the word "belong" based on? property is a pretty fucked up concept, which, in the western hemisphere, among other regions, is completely based on THEFT, well, not really theft, but violent robbery actualized through murder.
im thinking big, try to keep up.
-------------------- and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll
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Frog
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How about this: Two wrongs don't make a right.
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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Positronius
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2219649 - 01/05/04 01:56 AM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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yeah, the problem with that is that the other guy keeps doing wrong and doesnt give a fuck about your pithy morality.
if you want to stay human, you have to choose sides.
-------------------- and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll
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Shroomism
Space Travellin
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2219653 - 01/05/04 01:59 AM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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I'd say it depends on your intentions. and morals.
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Frog
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It's not my problem that someone else is fucking with his karma. I'm only responsible for my karma.
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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Positronius
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2219676 - 01/05/04 02:09 AM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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I agree with shroomism. Ive stolen alot of books, I did this because I was aware that the corporation I was stealing from makes massive profits, and that I am poor. I am also aware that if I steal books from them I save money (say..20 bucks) , and that if I take these new books and sell them to a independant used book store they, and I, make a profit they = 10 bucks me = 10 bucks, (thats 30 overall) then I go to an independant cafe and spend 10 bucks on fair trade coffee, I am helping them, and the indegenous farmers of ecuador make a profit. then I go see some live music performed by a local band, and spend the rest, --- helping them profit. so in conclusion, my act of "theft" is actually an act of capital re-distribution. I take from the rich, and give to the not-rich.
-------------------- and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll
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Shroomism
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I also play modern robin hood
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Frog
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Stealing is wrong, no matter what your motives. You are creating your own karma. I'm sorry for you.
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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nubious
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2219730 - 01/05/04 02:32 AM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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I'd feel that the free cable would be karma's way of giving back
-------------------- No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.
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Positronius
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2219734 - 01/05/04 02:34 AM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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you are trapped within your own dogma, created by a religious heirarchy with one motive - control of the populous.
your belief stays inside your head and doesnt go anywhere else, dont worry about me, my life is ruled by my belief, and I am able to see the bigger picture without the use of fantasy.
-------------------- and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll
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Positronius
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and anyways, Karma is related to intent, not action, but the intent behind the action,
remember what Krishna said to Arjuna before his epic battle?
hmmmmmmmmm?
-------------------- and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll
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Frog
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Re: Thief [Re: nubious]
#2219737 - 01/05/04 02:37 AM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
nubious said: I'd feel that the free cable would be karma's way of giving back
No, because you're not "getting back" what you think belonged to you in an honest way.
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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Mixomatosis
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2219738 - 01/05/04 02:37 AM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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I was hanging out talking to this guy and another guy came up and asked us if we wanted to go eat some robin hood almond butter. I thought that was a really cool thing to call it, I laughed, he made my day a little brighter. I didn't have any almond butter, but boy it would have tasted so good.. The only thievery I perform is.. well, I used to steal lots of bagels from this one dumpster. I've actually stolen a lot of food from dumpsters outside big grocery stores and stuff. I wonder how I'll pay for that in my future... I shudder to imagine the spirits protecting dumpster food. And I'm not talking about the acne-covered dickheads on the fastrack to corporate success.. I'm thinking more about the guardian spirits.
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Shroomism
Space Travellin
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2219742 - 01/05/04 02:39 AM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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ok I gotta play devils advocate. so say you just got kidnapped and beaten and dropped into the middle of the forest with your hands bound and after days and days of wandering you find the occasional pool of water and then you stumble across a store, labeled Satan's House of Bread and other Foodstuffs, and you go in and beg with the man for a free piece of bread or you will starve and he just laughs at you.. now they charge 50 bucks a loaf and they usually throw away a bunch of bread when the store closes which is in 15 minutes..so you are at the point of starvation.. and stealing one loaf of bread from this major greed and fear based corporation which is partly responsible for your not being able to get bread for free in the first place... you are dying of starvation.. is it bad karma to steal that loaf?
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Frog
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Quote:
Positronius said: you are trapped within your own dogma, created by a religious heirarchy with one motive - control of the populous.
your belief stays inside your head and doesnt go anywhere else, dont worry about me, my life is ruled by my belief, and I am able to see the bigger picture without the use of fantasy.
I don't believe what I believe because of someone's creation of a religious heirarchy, whateverthefuck that means.
I believe what I believe because of what's inside me. And you don't see the bigger picture, my friend. You, my friend, are short-sighted. You are acting on your impulses based on the "here and now". You don't see the big picture.
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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Mixomatosis
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2219749 - 01/05/04 02:42 AM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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you aren't allowed to bring up religious dogma (karma) and refer to the bible and then say
"I don't believe what I believe because of someone's creation of a religious heirarchy, whateverthefuck that means"
congratulations.. they got you under control. I'm laughing all the way to the dumpster
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Mixomatosis
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some advice, frog, from another thread:
"You just have to learn how to play by your rules, rather than their rules." -frog
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SkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2219752 - 01/05/04 02:43 AM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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There is no absolute and everything is relative. So we must judge according to the circumstances.
-------------------- Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.
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Mixomatosis
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but.. that would be... scary!
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Positronius
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frog, where did the idea of karma come from, no wait, ill tell you:
it came from India, where the religious elite use their ideas to keep their status and insure their control over society - the caste system.
politics baby, you combine fantasy with politics and you dominate, thats the name of the game.
but...why do I have to be an untouchable, im just a normal human?
well dear sir, it is your karma to be the shit-heel of society, and it is my karma to remain rich, and my sons karma to inherit my wealth!
muhahaha. Heres an idea, learn where your beliefs originated, then get back to me.
-------------------- and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll
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Frog
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Quote:
Mixomatosis said: you aren't allowed to bring up religious dogma (karma) and refer to the bible and then say
"I don't believe what I believe because of someone's creation of a religious heirarchy, whateverthefuck that means"
congratulations.. they got you under control. I'm laughing all the way to the dumpster
Of course I can. I don't believe in "society's" creation of religious heirarchy. I believe in karma and the bible. If you had more knowledge, you would understand what I am talking about.
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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Positronius
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2219768 - 01/05/04 02:50 AM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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umm, but the religious heirarchy created karma and the bible, lest we forget.
-------------------- and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll
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Shroomism
Space Travellin
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the only kind of karma I know of.. is the kind that makes for evolution and progress..
murder is karma in progress. so is being nice. good and bad intentions create negative and positive karma and the cycle is eternal always seeking balance. But see neither 'good' or 'bad' is really 'good' or 'bad' because together they create growth, and without one, the other would simply stagnate, and turn to shit, so good is good, and evil is good.
--------------------
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Mixomatosis
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2219771 - 01/05/04 02:51 AM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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if you had more knowledge you'd know how little sense you always didn't never make
I bet purgatory is a lot like the inside of a dumpster
PS see pos's post above
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Mixomatosis
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2219774 - 01/05/04 02:52 AM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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speaking of dumpsters, what ABOUT dumpsters? I mean, do you seriously think salvaging food like that is giving me bad karma?
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Frog
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Quote:
Shroomism said: ok I gotta play devils advocate. so say you just got kidnapped and beaten and dropped into the middle of the forest with your hands bound and after days and days of wandering you find the occasional pool of water and then you stumble across a store, labeled Satan's House of Bread and other Foodstuffs, and you go in and beg with the man for a free piece of bread or you will starve and he just laughs at you.. now they charge 50 bucks a loaf and they usually throw away a bunch of bread when the store closes which is in 15 minutes..so you are at the point of starvation.. and stealing one loaf of bread from this major greed and fear based corporation which is partly responsible for your not being able to get bread for free in the first place... you are dying of starvation.. is it bad karma to steal that loaf?
If it's my karma to starve to death, so be it. But I refuse to steal. It's beneath me to steal. I like being able to get into my bed at night and fall asleep without thinking that the only way I can survive in this world is by stealing. It's wrong, no matter how many different ways you want to twist the reality of it.
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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Shroomism
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2219778 - 01/05/04 02:57 AM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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Are you The Man? You're starting to talk like him Stop you're scaring me.
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Frog
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Quote:
Positronius said: frog, where did the idea of karma come from, no wait, ill tell you:
it came from India, where the religious elite use their ideas to keep their status and insure their control over society - the caste system.
politics baby, you combine fantasy with politics and you dominate, thats the name of the game.
but...why do I have to be an untouchable, im just a normal human?
well dear sir, it is your karma to be the shit-heel of society, and it is my karma to remain rich, and my sons karma to inherit my wealth!
muhahaha. Heres an idea, learn where your beliefs originated, then get back to me.
My karma is my karma, no matter the origin. The rich person has to deal with his karma. I don't know why an asshole might be rich, it's not my place to say. I am responsible for my karma, period. Therefore, if my karma is to be a shit-heel, so be it. I will accept that status in society, and be happy. At least I'm not a thief.
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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Frog
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Shroomism, I respect you. Please tell me how I am sounding like "the Man".
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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Frog
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Quote:
Mixomatosis said: speaking of dumpsters, what ABOUT dumpsters? I mean, do you seriously think salvaging food like that is giving me bad karma?
Trash in a dumpster is free to anyone, isn't it? I used to forage at night, in my college days. If it was illegal, I didn't know about the illegalities.
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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SkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2219795 - 01/05/04 03:05 AM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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My *general* stance on this issue, is that if your action doesn't cause another person to suffer or experience pain and emotional disturbance of any kind...then I wouldn't deem it evil, or REALLY wrong. For example, stealing a toaster from Costco, who's really gonna suffer for that? The company will just write it off in their annual percentages, no big friggin deal. I do agree that it's still *technically* wrong. But what I would deem as truly *Evil* is stealing a toaster that actually BELONGS to somebody. Now that person is gonna wake up, and won't be able to have toast for breakfast. No warm poptarts. No crispy bagels. This person is now SUFFERING because of YOU. That's my *General* stance on it. But like I said, there is no absolute, and everything is relative....so judge according to the circumstances.
-------------------- Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.
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Shroomism
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2219796 - 01/05/04 03:06 AM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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I mean you would rather die than put a greedy, evil corporation out of a couple pennies? Isn't your well-being and life more important than some material thing?
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Frog
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Quote:
Positronius said: umm, but the religious heirarchy created karma and the bible, lest we forget.
No, the religious heirarchy didn't create the bible. The bible was inspired by God and written by common men.
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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Positronius
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2219805 - 01/05/04 03:12 AM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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frog "My karma is my karma, no matter the origin"
you adopted an idea someone created, you dont think the creators intent matters?
-------------------- and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll
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Frog
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Quote:
Shroomism said: I mean you would rather die than put a greedy, evil corporation out of a couple pennies? Isn't your well-being and life more important than some material thing?
Yes. Stealing is wrong. There are honest ways of putting a greedy, evil corporation out of business. And no, my well-being and life is not more important than stealing from a corporation. I don't care about from WHOM you steal. Stealing is wrong, period.
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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Shroomism
Space Travellin
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2219810 - 01/05/04 03:13 AM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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The bible was written by common men.
But then it was edited and revised many times by the religous heirarchy. Lest we forget.
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Shroomism
Space Travellin
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2219813 - 01/05/04 03:15 AM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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"well I dont mind stealing bread from the mouth of decadence 'cause I'm going hungry"
It may be wrong for you, but not for me.
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Frog
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Quote:
SkorpivoMusterion said: My *general* stance on this issue, is that if your action doesn't cause another person to suffer or experience pain and emotional disturbance of any kind...then I wouldn't deem it evil, or REALLY wrong. For example, stealing a toaster from Costco, who's really gonna suffer for that? The company will just write it off in their annual percentages, no big friggin deal. I do agree that it's still *technically* wrong.
What's wrong is you are affecting YOUR karma by stealing, regardless of from whom you steal. YOU have to deal with the repercussions of that. No, Walmart is not probably going to suffer some major set-back because YOU stole a toaster. But what about your life? Your karma? Do you really want to upset the balance of your life for a toaster? Fuck, I could clean someone's house and make enough money to buy a fuckin' toaster. Why would I want to steal one? Just because of "the Man"?
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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Frog
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Quote:
Shroomism said: "well I dont mind stealing bread from the mouth of decadence 'cause I'm going hungry"
It may be wrong for you, but not for me.
So we agree to disagree. Works for me.
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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Frog
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Quote:
Positronius said: frog "My karma is my karma, no matter the origin"
you adopted an idea someone created, you dont think the creators intent matters?
I believed in what I now know to be "karma" before I learned what karma is.
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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Frog
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Quote:
Shroomism said: The bible was written by common men.
But then it was edited and revised many times by the religous heirarchy. Lest we forget.
I believe in the ethics and morality that the bible teaches. If there are some nuances that were incorrectly perceived by common man, after receiving the word from God, I don't think that that makes the bible null and void.
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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SkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2219853 - 01/05/04 03:40 AM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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What's wrong is you are affecting YOUR karma by stealing, regardless of from whom you steal. I believe in Karma, but I don't believe in the variation of Karma in which that if I do something THAT HAS NO NEGATIVE EFFECT WHATSOEVER, I will still suffer down the road for it. I believe Karma comes into play WHEN AND IF A NEGATIVE EFFECT caused by YOUR OWN CHOICES occurs.
The only reason I believe it's still *technically* wrong to do so, is because of the society's morals and standards revolving around money in a capitalist country. The company did not make the product just to give away--but to sell and make profit. So, It's wrong because it's against the law. But so is smoking pot and altering your consciousness via consuming hallucinogenic mushrooms.
I have no problem with a poor man who's in a severe situation (i.e. just got laid off, and wife was gangraped and murdered) and must resort to stealing fruit from the supermarket to feed his children.
But I suppose you still think otherwise?
-------------------- Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.
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Frog
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Quote:
SkorpivoMusterion said: What's wrong is you are affecting YOUR karma by stealing, regardless of from whom you steal. I believe in Karma, but I don't believe in the variation of Karma in which that if I do something THAT HAS NO NEGATIVE EFFECT WHATSOEVER, I will still suffer down the road for it. I believe Karma comes into play WHEN AND IF A NEGATIVE EFFECT caused by YOUR OWN CHOICES occurs.
The only reason I believe it's still *technically* wrong to do so, is because of the society's morals and standards revolving around money in a capitalist country. The company did not make the product just to give away--but to sell and make profit. So, It's wrong because it's against the law. But so is smoking pot and altering your consciousness via consuming hallucinogenic mushrooms.
I have no problem with a poor man who's in a severe situation (i.e. just got laid off, and wife was gangraped and murdered) and must resort to stealing fruit from the supermarket to feed his children.
But I suppose you still think otherwise?
Of course.
This is where I have to harmonize the bible with karma. I don't believe that the beliefs or morals or whatever, espoused by each, are mutually exclusive of each other.
In the bible, Jesus says to give unto Caesar that which belongs to Caesar . We are supposed to still follow the rules of society.
The man who lost his job and his wife was gang-raped: They are working out their own karma from previous lives, most likely. They are learning something. If they don't learn it in this life, without stealing, they will have to come back and try to learn it again.
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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SkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2219887 - 01/05/04 04:09 AM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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So...if I just got laid off, no paycheck...my wife is DEAD...and I have 3 children I need to feed and support. There's only one lil pack of saltines left, in the whole little 1-bedroom studio apt. No existent family...and Not even a homeless shelter anywhere within reasonable distance, since I'm so poor that I can BARELY afford a busride, let alone a car...and my children, and me are starving...I even call the cops, and they just say "Find a friend or relative, we don't handle that business"...I even try the landlord, but she's a cold hearted cruel bitch, and she's on vacation anyway. No existant neighbors to speak of. There are LITERALLY NO OPTIONS at this point. Oh, wait, except....well....there IS a super-market across the street....sells lots of bread and fruit out-doors and stuff....I could easily get some bread and apples, just enough for my kids to eat, at least.... Or, I could just sit and starve and pray for a miracle to happen.
What do you suggest I do?
-------------------- Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.
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Frog
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Quote:
SkorpivoMusterion said: So...if I just got laid off, no paycheck...my wife is DEAD...and I have 3 children I need to feed and support. There's only one lil pack of saltines left, in the whole little 1-bedroom studio apt. No existent family...and Not even a homeless shelter anywhere within reasonable distance, since I'm so poor that I can BARELY afford a busride, let alone a car...and my children, and me are starving...I even call the cops, and they just say "Find a friend or relative, we don't handle that business"...I even try the landlord, but she's a cold hearted cruel bitch, and she's on vacation anyway. No existant neighbors to speak of. There are LITERALLY NO OPTIONS at this point. Oh, wait, except....well....there IS a super-market across the street....sells lots of bread and fruit out-doors and stuff....I could easily get some bread and apples, just enough for my kids to eat, at least.... Or, I could just sit and starve and pray for a miracle to happen.
What do you suggest I do?
Pray.
Seriously, I'm not giving lip-service to my beliefs. I won't go into details, because they're not important. Let me say just this much, though: I've put my beliefs into action. I've been down to, literally, one penny, and had no food, no gas, etc. I didn't have to steal or beg. Therefore, I believe in what God promised us. God hasn't failed me yet.
I have not stolen, and I've been very poor. I'm still here.
Oh, and I sleep at night.
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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castaway
Isanybodyreallyhome?
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Re: " What do you suggest I do? "
Follow your heart
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SkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2219923 - 01/05/04 04:38 AM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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And what if I pray for as LONG as humanly possible, that is, do my absolute best to keep myself from driving crazy from the hunger....and eventually, no miracle happens, and me and my children are CRYING out of pure sadness and hunger and it gets to the point where I can't even control it anymore and my hunger-instincts kick in and goes into survival mode, and I MUST obtain food--somehow....so I go up to the supermarket at the last minute before it closes...grab a few apples, a loaf of bread or two, and take it back home with me and feed my children.
Karmically speaking, this is fine.
Don't get karma mixed up with law here.
Karma only comes into play when A NEGATIVE EFFECT OCCURS DUE TO YOUR CHOICES, that is, if another person suffers in some way or another, because of your actions.
Lawfully, it is still wrong.
Morally, it is debatable, of course. Everybody has an opinion. I believe, that there ARE circumstances where things that might be considered unethical or "wrong" in one situation, may be necessary in another situation.
THERE IS NO ABSOLUTE AND EVERYTHING IS RELATIVE. SO WE MUST JUDGE ACCORDING TO THE CIRCUMSTANCES
-------------------- Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.
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Frog
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If you take something that doesn't belong to you, regardless of the reason, is it not stealing? What if this was the last lesson you ever had to learn? Are you going to spoil it by stealing?
And I'm not saying, when faced with dire straights, that you should just sit on your island and do nothing but pray. There's an expression that "where God closes a door, He opens a window".
Also reminds me of a joke: A man is ship-wrecked in the middle of an ocean, and he can't swim. He prays. A helicopter comes by, but the man waves it away, because he is waiting for God to save him. A boat comes by, but he waves that away, too, because he is waiting for God. A ship goes by, but the man won't accept help, because he is waiting for God to help him.
The man finally drowns. When he gets to heaven, he says to God, "I prayed for you to save me from drowning, but I drowned! Why didn't you save me?" And God says, "I sent you a helicopter, a boat, and a ship! What the hell did you want???"
See, we find our help from God through signs, or resources in this world, whether it be through people, or events, or whatever. So we pray, and then we make choices, and by opting for different choices, even if those choices seem like a dead-end, God will send a boat, or helicopter.
But most of us do not trust God. So we think we have to do it alone in this world, and many of us think we have to steal, or lie, to survive. It is not necessary to take these wrong actions, when God has promised us to take care of us.
Keep in mind that stealing is wrong. If you are starving, and no matter what you do, no matter how much you pray, no matter how much you avail yourself of God's help through other people, you do not obtain relief from your suffering, you are probably learning an important life lesson which will affect your karma.
If you steal to alleviate your hunger or the hunger of your children, you just failed the test. If you didn't steal, you passed the test. You learned what you were supposed to learn. What if you didn't have to come back? But if you steal, you will have to come back. You will have to start over.
The negative effect isn't always about how it affects other people. It's also about how it affects your karma. You have to look beyond your own fear about starving to death. Your life is about more than your temporal existence.
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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SkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2219936 - 01/05/04 05:01 AM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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Okay, lets set aside karma and religion for the moment, and allow me to ask you this:
what MAKES something wrong? better yet, specifically, what MAKES stealing wrong? WHY is it wrong to steal?
Again, set aside karma and religion and anything directly related to that.
-------------------- Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.
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Frog
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Taking something that doesn't belong to you, that belongs to another, is wrong. edit: I wrote about this on another thread. Put aside God and the bible and karma, as you said. Jean-Jacques Rousseau wrote that there was a social contract back in the beginning days of man. We agreed not to "take" from each other, in order that we might be able to claim a plot of land or a woman or a fruit tree, and not have to worry about someone coming along and taking them. If otherwise, chaos would result in our society. We need rules to survive.
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
Edited by Frog (01/05/04 05:09 AM)
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SkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2219941 - 01/05/04 05:07 AM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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Yes, Stealing is wrong. That has been established. But tell me, WHY is it wrong?
-------------------- Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.
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Frog
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I edited my previous post. Take a look at that.
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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SkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2219948 - 01/05/04 05:13 AM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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The question still remains, why do you think it is *WRONG* to take something, that belongs to ME? What exactly is the EFFECT that happens, which MAKES it *WRONG*?
-------------------- Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.
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Frog
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Other than saying that it catapults our society into chaos if we all start taking from each other that which doesn't belong to us, I don't know what is "wrong" with stealing.
I am going to bed. I will consult with my guru in the morning and get back to you on this.
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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castaway
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2219956 - 01/05/04 05:23 AM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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"if...you do not obtain relief from your suffering, you are probably learning an important life lesson which will affect your karma."-
We are inclined, as I see it, towards action. The karma of a shopkeeper may attract theft...The karma of a rapist may attract pain & suffering...and someone has to be inclined for that karma to occur.
Having something stolen from me is discomforting. What have I done to deserve discomfort? The thief was inclined to fulfil MY karma and in that I suppose I have no say. The karma of the thief is between them and God (that is for those of us who believe in the gremlins behind the scenes)
"If you steal to alleviate... the hunger of your children, you just failed the test."-
If your children die of starvation I think you failed the test. There is more than one way to get what we want. If I were easily inclined I may kill people for money like join the army. If I thought about it I may choose another occupation
"What if you didn't have to come back?"-
What if there were no other place and this were the only one where we are FREE to create.
Why would souls want to incarnate; Practice makes perfect?
(I hope I'm making sense)
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SkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2219962 - 01/05/04 05:29 AM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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Chaos would be the overall ultimate reaction. I'm talking about that little factor that would have to add up to an immense amount till it becomes pure "chaos".
What is that factor, which is caused by the effect of stealing?
The ACT of taking something which does not yet belong to you, has been established by man, that it is NOT right; and thus became law. (Which came first, Karma..or Law made by Man? Think deeply about that.)
What EFFECT does stealing CAUSE that makes it WRONG, if you stole MY watch?
I'm going to bed to...I look forward to discussing this with you later on. =) Goodnight!
-------------------- Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.
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Anonymous
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2220115 - 01/05/04 07:36 AM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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You move into a new apartment, and you plug the cable line into your T.V., and you discover that you have "free" cable. Do you keep the free cable? Do you call the cable company and notify them that you are receiving free cable and want to switch to being billed?
This actually happened to me. I called the cable company and told them to unhook it. But then again I don't watch tv.
If the golden rule is do unto others, etc, then a person that doesn't want to be stolen from shouldn't steal from others. Taking something that isn't yours isn't a right or an entitlement. As a construction worker I have 'stolen' exactly 1 thing in over 25 years and that was when I was an apprentice. It was a 25 foot piece of plastic rope.
That was wrong.
The companies that hire me would be unable to do so if people stole too much from them. If I participate in actions like that I would help myself to be unemployed.
Not good, not cool.
Turn your question around.
Ask people if they would enjoy being stolen from.
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kaiowas
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Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,501
Loc: oz
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2220214 - 01/05/04 08:20 AM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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look, we have word problems, that's how stuff like this happens, just look...
these are taken from a dictionary
theif-one who steals
steal-to take, (the property of others) without permission or right
take-to control by force or seize or capature; to recieve or accept willingly.
so a thief could be a person who recived something without any right? which definition are you using? because the example you are using is someone just out of the blue getting free cable. if you are going to judge yourself that bad or think that your next hour let alone next life will be affected by the "cable" then karma is picky. too picky for me to concern with. I mean really, that's just anal-retentive IMHO.
as far as the dumpster goes, how are you gonna judge yourself that harshly too, especially when you NEED food. as shroomism stated, well-being.
now each of these examples still involve on what is being stolen, not the act itself.
so how about the act stealing itself? if i receive (to take into possession, sometimes when offered or delivered) the cable without having the right (ie not paying for it yet) how am I wrong (not morally correct in action, judgement, opinion, method, etc)? I didn't purposefully did it, that's just setting me up right there. and if karma wants to set me up and then give the boot the next time around, well that's dumb IMHO.
and so you get the free cable, are you gonna report? if you will, then why not "correct" everything else that's "wrong" with your surroundings. if you see something bad happen, go out of your way and do something about it so your next lifetime will be what (painfree maybe?)
what lesson will you get out of reporting you get free cable? how is it the "right" thing to do. are you telling me you know what is what, and you're telling us how it goes? it's wrong, and then that's it??
what's with karma anyway?
-------------------- Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.
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Mixomatosis
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2220407 - 01/05/04 11:37 AM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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No, stealing from dumpsters is illegal. Taking food from the trash makes you not buy food from the store. Stores don't like this, because they are unable to make money off dumpster food. If we all ate from dumpsters the store wouldn't be able to exist. Therefore, if you've done some dumpster diving, you're fucked.
mr. mushrooms: I wouldn't mind at all if someone ate from my trash can. More power to him.
Frog.. please consult your guru
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Shroomism
Space Travellin
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2220409 - 01/05/04 11:39 AM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Frog said:
Quote:
Shroomism said: The bible was written by common men. But then it was edited and revised many times by the religous heirarchy. Lest we forget.
I believe in the ethics and morality that the bible teaches. If there are some nuances that were incorrectly perceived by common man, after receiving the word from God, I don't think that that makes the bible null and void.
I'm not talking about a few nuances and discrepencies overlooked by the common men... I am talking about full passages and complete chapters heavily edited, twisted, and altered by the religous heirarchy AFTER it was written. Edited to suit their needs. That can be held at least partly responsible for all the hypocrisy and contradictions in the Bible. You keep saying, "stealing is wrong" but you don't give any reasons. That absolute, without any exception, stealing is always wrong... for no reason? I hate to burst your bubble but we don't live in a utopia right now. Now were we living in a perfect and flawless society, I would probably understand when you say 'stealing is wrong, without exception'. There are MUCH worse ways to rack up 'karma' then stealing. And karma is good for you anyway. A lot of people seem to have this preconceived notion of karma, that if you have bad karma you must suffer from it to learn your lesson. That may be the case, but nowhere is it written that we must suffer because of bad karma. Bad karma exists so that we may learn and evolve, like I said before. If you never got bad karma, you would rot away into nothingness, since you would never progress, never learn, never evolve. That being said, you HAVE to pick up some bad karma here and there. That's the point of it existing in the first place. And even so... you act as if "bad" karma from stealing is the worst thing you can possibly do to yourself. No. Try killing an innocent person on the street, Or bombing a large city, then we can talk about bad karma. But stealing a loaf of bread because you are dying of starvation and it is against your morals to steal? No. That doesn't exactly tear any holes in the space/time continuum. If you wholeheartedly believe everything the Bible says without doubt, instead of taking it metaphorically or simply as fables, then you failed the test. I am familiar with the cycle of reincarnation, and through my 700,000+ incarnations into physical flesh, I have stolen many times, sometimes for survival, sometimes just because. I can assure you, that not once, did my stealing result in having to "start over" the cycle of evolution. In fact it just taught me valuable lessons. God may be "out there", but God is not going to take care of us, we need to accept that. God is not living in the 3rd dimension with us now, and he isn't in physical form right next to us, so we have to take care of ourselves. That's one of the problems with this world.. no one taking full responsibility for their own actions. It's always God's will or some other crap. No, we make our decisions, not God... and we are responsible for our actions. God does enough keeping the universe rotating and the stars burning and being the center of creation, our lives are in OUR hands, not Gods. That's the entire point of physical existence, to learn on our own. You ever wonder why you don't see god every day when you wake up? Yeah, that's because we are god, so we make our own decisions like real humans. You cannot be absolute in this stealing thing. If you are talking about karma, eventually, some shopkeeper is going to have some "bad" karma that needs to be balanced, and eventually, someone is going to steal something from him to balance the karma. The person stealing was only balancing karma. You cannot use absolute statements like "stealing is always wrong, period", when every situation is completely subjective, and based on personal morals and opinions. How do you define stealing anyway... since everything originates from the Earth in the first place. Are you stealing it from the tree? Are the people who picked it stealing it from the tree? Or, they stole it from the tree, so it is rightfully theirs and we must pay for it. I'm sorry for going off on a tangent, but your point of view irritates me Life is the test. If you die because you refused to steal based on some commandment written 2,000+ years ago by some dead guy, then god will probably laugh at you for having completely missed "the test".
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Frog
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Shroomism: I am familiar with the cycle of reincarnation, and through my 700,000+ incarnations into physical flesh, I have stolen many times, sometimes for survival, sometimes just because. I can assure you, that not once, did my stealing result in having to "start over" the cycle of evolution. In fact it just taught me valuable lessons.
Maybe you have proved my point???
I respectfully disagree with you, Shroomism. And stealing is wrong. Where is trendal? Trendal has good knowledge about this. Unless, of course, he comes back and says stealing is okay, then I will have to disagree with him, too.
And I was going to ask the question that Mr. Mushrooms said I should ask, whether you would appreciate it if someone stole from you, but I know what the answer is: It's your karma to be stolen from. And that's my point. Why would someone steal from you, unless it's because you have been stealing from someone else?
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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Shroomism
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2220527 - 01/05/04 12:33 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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I live in DC. I've been stolen from MANY times. Why just last week my precious backpack was stolen, containing 600 dollars in tickets, a lyric book that had accumulated poems and lyrics from 4 years of writing, 65 CDs, and my discman.
Now you are saying that it is my own bad karma that someone stole from me? What about their bad karma for stealing in the first place? Or are you saying that they are balancing things out by stealing?
To answer your question, someone might steal from me, because they are too poor and looking for some quick money, or maybe because they are klepto, or maybe they are doing me a favor by getting rid of some material possessions. The list could go on and on. I'm glad I lost my backpack, I was becoming too attached to it and the material possessions inside. I'm glad someone stole it from me, it gives me a chance to renew.
The government steals from me all the time. Everytime I go into the store or get paid or spend money. They are making their own karma, I am just balancing it out.
--------------------
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Anonymous
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2220533 - 01/05/04 12:37 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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here in australia we had an anglican priest come out publicly and say it was not a sin to shoplift from chain supermarkets saying that those same chainstores stole from the community by closing down small businesses like grocers . personally i think that the choice is yours to steal and you have to live with your own concience be it heavy or light. i've wondered about christ on the cross with a thief on one side and a murderer on the other and the thief goes to hell but the murderer is saved,from that i get the idea that to kill is sometimes a necessity due to circumstances like self defense but you will still suffer from the act be it prison or whatever but god understands, a thief on the other hand steals peoples hopes and dreams,food money, property which has a snow ball affect making innocent people suffer.
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Zero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2220566 - 01/05/04 12:53 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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Techincally as "god" put it, we were all born sinners, are we not? We must work towards forgivness. If you were freezing in the night, had no food, water, or shelter, and you had your children next to you. You were lost in the mountains cause you lost your trail, you come upon a barn that is rather nice, but the people who own it, are not there... Do you go in, make yourself warm, find a bite to eat, to save yourself? Or is this where the prayer comes in? You pray, nothing happens, they are still not home, your children start to look sick. The question comes on YOU, would YOU rather let your children die, or would YOU yourself be re incarnated to save YOUR children? Who becomes the selfless one then? Do you think that if you had commited a selfless act by dooming yourself to another lifetime, but to save your kids, that would not be something that God would not look favorably upon you?
To this, i must ask myself the question of... WHEN is stealing wrong, what circumstances make it completely wrong?
You may use the bible or karma to make up your mind. But i assure you if you venture from what others have been constructed to tell you, and FOLLOW that idea that things like forgivness, and giving are honorable attributes of a being, maybe you will lead yourself to change your views on the "rules" that other people have come to write.
I myself have stolen before, pretty petty things, some things I regret, others, I do not. I must forgive myself for most of those things were done in early childhood, surely God would pardon me from childish behavior .
-------------------- What?
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Frog
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Re: Thief [Re: ]
#2220567 - 01/05/04 12:53 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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i've wondered about christ on the cross with a thief on one side and a murderer on the other and the thief goes to hell but the murderer is saved,from that i get the idea that to kill is sometimes a necessity due to circumstances like self defense but you will still suffer from the act be it prison or whatever but god understands, a thief on the other hand steals peoples hopes and dreams,food money, property which has a snow ball affect making innocent people suffer.
The reason that the murderer went to heaven was because he accepted Christ as his savior before he died, and the thief didn't.
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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Shdwstr
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15 min's before closing huh? You throw yourself into the pool to freshen up. Dripping wet you burst into the store laughing loudly and carrying on. " Good day to you Sir... We're having a Pool Party just a little ways from here and wondered if you would care to cater the goodies for the next 3 days festivities? I realize your just about to close and wouldn't want to detain you. Perhaps you could just put together a sampler of your finest breads, crackers, pate's etc. for me to show everyone, and I'll come back in the morning with our order, after we have sampled your fine and tasty delicacies!"
What greedy capitalistic company wouldn't fall for it
Lied... kinda... you were in a pool. Stole... nope... He gave it freely (if he did) Conned him... Well... lets say you were negotiating a difficult contract. Didn't show up the next morning... Shit happens... party ended... ran out of shrooms
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Anonymous
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2220585 - 01/05/04 12:58 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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i know , i just think it goes a bit deeper than that.
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SkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2220768 - 01/05/04 02:28 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Frog said: And stealing is wrong.
What is the specific effect that stealing causes, which makes it unacceptable? Allow me to esplain. It creates a victim. The victim then suffers, due to your own choices. THAT is what makes it evil, and thus *wrong*. THEN, and ONLY then would Karma have any reason to come into the picture, because you created negativity. If you don't create negativity with your actions, then you do not need any karmic punishment. It's plain and simple. Taking a loaf of bread from a mass-corporate monopoly company without paying money you don't have for it, to SURVIVE, for example, has no negative effect, and thus no karmic effect. It's still lawfully wrong however, do not get Universal Karma and one country's man-made laws on this planet mixed up and confused with each other.
-------------------- Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.
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TheDarkSideof_Paco
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Quote:
Shroomism said:
Quote:
Frog said:
Quote:
Shroomism said: The bible was written by common men. But then it was edited and revised many times by the religous heirarchy. Lest we forget.
I believe in the ethics and morality that the bible teaches. If there are some nuances that were incorrectly perceived by common man, after receiving the word from God, I don't think that that makes the bible null and void.
Shroomism said: "I'm not talking about a few nuances and discrepencies overlooked by the common men... I am talking about full passages and complete chapters heavily edited, twisted, and altered by the religous heirarchy AFTER it was written. Edited to suit their needs. That can be held at least partly responsible for all the hypocrisy and contradictions in the Bible. " Actually, other than the King James bible (which I will admit has many descrepancies), all new age bibles are translated directly from the original carved tablets by the disciples. The old testament I think is in Aramic and New Testament is in Hebrew. So yes you are correct the the "religious hierarchy" has molded and edited some of the bible. But true christians have went back and said that is not right and it has been correctly translated. All christians should not be told the bible is wrong because someone decided to change the word of god for their better. Paco
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Frog
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What you say does not make sense to me. I am listening to what you are saying, or at least I am reading your words, and they do not make sense. I think I see your point, but stealing is wrong, and even if you steal from a corporation, there are still people affected negatively by your theft. Prices go up because of theft, for one thing.
If there was no God or karma? I don't know.
But there is a God, and there is a bible, and there is karma.
We've been talking about how the bible was written by man and interpreted by the "bad" religious people, or whatever, but does anyone think that the 10 commandments were misinterpreted?
This is a rhetorical question, because no matter how much you want to say the bible was misinterpreted and then written based on that misinterpretation, I'll bet money that the 10 commandments weren't misinterpreted. They look pretty simple to me.
One of the commandments says not to steal. It didn't differentiate between stealing from an individual and stealing from a corporation.
People who are going to die because they didn't steal food by which to feed themselves? It's part of their karma. And I'm not talking about being punished. I'm talking about learning lessons.
Hey, look, I'm not condemning any one for stealing. I personally don't believe it's right, based on God and the bible and karma. If you guys think it's okay to steal, based on the reasons you gave above, go for it. I won't tell God on you.
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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Frog
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My understanding, left over from law school days, is that once you put stuff in your trash, it's fair game. I could be wrong about grocery store dumpsters, however, but only because it could be considered trespassing.
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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Frog
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Quote:
SkorpivoMusterion said:
Quote:
Frog said: And stealing is wrong.
What is the specific effect that stealing causes, which makes it unacceptable?
Allow me to esplain. It creates a victim. The victim then suffers, due to your own choices. THAT is what makes it evil, and thus *wrong*. THEN, and ONLY then would Karma have any reason to come into the picture, because you created negativity. If you don't create negativity with your actions, then you do not need any karmic punishment. It's plain and simple.
Taking a loaf of bread from a mass-corporate monopoly company without paying money you don't have for it, to SURVIVE, for example, has no negative effect, and thus no karmic effect.
It's still lawfully wrong however, do not get Universal Karma and one country's man-made laws on this planet mixed up and confused with each other.
Let's talk about why it's bad to steal from kmart, or walmart.
How about "shrink"? Shrink is the "lost product". It's product that has been damaged, lost or stolen. Theft, whether by employees or patrons, is a major part of shrink.
There are stores that have been put out of business because of shrink. A major store was put out business because of shrink called "White Front". That's just one example. Home Depot has major theft divisions to control theft because theft can put a store out of business. Why do major stores invest so much in theft departments to prevent theft? It's because it can put them out of business.
Now, I know you're not crying yet for these big chain stores. How about this:
What about the employees that lose their jobs when the store closes down? Is this enough negativity? Do they now have to go steal because they've lost their incomes?
What about price increases because of theft? Poor people already have a hard enough time paying for things. Now they have to pay more.
What about law enforcement? Society has to pay for this.
Why steal, anyways? If it's the right thing to do, let's go looting! Let's walk in, in the light of day, when they can see our faces, and take what we want and walk out. If it's okay to take what doesn't belong to us, because it belongs to a bad department store, we won't be stopped.
Let's change the laws, that we should get what we want for free, because of the Man.
But stealing is sneaky. You all are saying "there's nothing wrong with stealing". I dare you to show your face when you do it. If it's okay to do it, show your face when you do it.
Sorry about my rant.
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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SkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2220992 - 01/05/04 03:58 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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even if you steal from a corporation, there are still people affected negatively by your theft. Prices go up because of theft, for one thing. You have any idea how much candy gets stolen every year from stores all over the world? I know, beleive me I used to work in stores. And never has the prices for a 4-pack of REESES peanut butter cups EVER raised. Or any other candy. Something would have to be stolen in RIDICULOUS amounts to trigger that effect. Realistically, 90% of thefts from massive monopoly corporations go unnotticed, written off, and calculated into the profits. No one knew, cared, or noticed you grabbed a singular No. 2 Pencil from Office Depot. You broke the law, sure. But your action has no true negative effect, and thus no karmic play. Because Karma and U.S. Gov'ts LAW are NOT ONE AND THE SAME. Otherwise we'd ALL be seriously FUCKED! Actions which have no negative effect whatsoever, do not warrant any karmic play. Simple as that. Just because The U.S. Gov't says it's against the law to take a loaf of bread from a corporation without paying for it, even if to survive as a last resort, does not mean that the Universal Karma must abide by that man-made law, because the Law is only black-and-white, at least for the most part. I do agree that MOST thefts ARE bad and evil. And DO warrant Karmic effect. But, you cannot convince me with pure conviction that no matter WHAT, it's EVIL EVIL EVIL EVIL EVIL EVIL EVIL EVIL EVIL and will incur the wrath of KARMIC PUNISHMENT, regardless of the circumstance. For something to be EVIL, it has to cause NEGATIVITY. THIS IS WHAT MAKES THE VAST MAJORITY OF STEALING WRONG. It creates VICTIMS. It creates SUFFERING. It creates Ugliness. This is where Karma comes in. Period. I find no true need to get the BIBLE involved in this, so forget that. It's a good book and all, I respect it, but it's pointless. I'm not gonna even go there. My final thought: THERE IS NO ABSOLUTE AND EVERYTHING IS RELATIVE. SO WE MUST JUDGE ACCORDING TO THE CIRCUMSTANCES.
-------------------- Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.
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Frog
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But your action has no true negative effect, and thus no karmic play. Because Karma and U.S. Gov'ts LAW are NOT ONE AND THE SAME.
I don't think karmic teachings and the bible are independent of each other, but I have not studied this, so I need help here. I'm not taking your word for it, Skorpivo, since you are the one with whom I am arguing.
The bible says to obey the laws of man. The laws of man, in addition to the bible saying it, say that stealing is wrong. Therefore, stealing is wrong, then it would not make for good karma.
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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Frog
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Re: Thief [Re: kaiowas]
#2221023 - 01/05/04 04:13 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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kaiowas: what lesson will you get out of reporting you get free cable? how is it the "right" thing to do. are you telling me you know what is what, and you're telling us how it goes? it's wrong, and then that's it??
If you think it's okay to receive free cable from an unwitting cable company, call the company and tell them about it. See if they shut it off.
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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SkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2221038 - 01/05/04 04:18 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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The reason why I dont bother bringing up the bible, is because it is not Universal. bible-beleivers arent the only people in the world here, yknow? Karma, however, which is NOT derived from the bible....It originates from Eastern Religions. Unless you wanna talk about the misused meaning of Karma--that is, "instant karma". Which, again is only logic. However, unlike the bible...Karma is much more Universally adaptable. This is why I'm saying, just set ASIDE the bible. Try to think OUTSIDE the box. Yes..Stealing IS wrong---BUT WHY??? Because it creates a victim. And thus, NEGATIVITY, and thus...BAD KARMA. THAT IS THE ONLY THING THAT MAKES IT EVIL... The only thing that makes it "wrong" no matter WHAT, is Law. Law does NOT dictate, no matter WHAT, that which is EVIL and that which is NOT. I am talking about KARMA strictly. Not this country's law. I can do something "wrong" according to the law, but that doesn't necessarilly mean it is EVIL, and thus creates negative Karma. Now do you see what I mean?
-------------------- Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.
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Frog
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Quote:
SkorpivoMusterion said: The reason why I dont bother bringing up the bible, is because it is not Universal. bible-beleivers arent the only people in the world here, yknow?
Karma, however, which is NOT derived from the bible....It originates from Eastern Religions. Unless you wanna talk about the misused meaning of Karma--that is, "instant karma". Which, again is only logic.
However, unlike the bible...Karma is much more Universally adaptable.
This is why I'm saying, just set ASIDE the bible. Try to think OUTSIDE the box.
I don't know...I don't think that you can still have karma if I can't have the bible.
Quote:
Yes..Stealing IS wrong---BUT WHY??? Because it creates a victim. And thus, NEGATIVITY, and thus...BAD KARMA.
THAT IS THE ONLY THING THAT MAKES IT EVIL...
The only thing that makes it "wrong" no matter WHAT, is Law.
Law does NOT dictate, no matter WHAT, that which is EVIL and that which is NOT.
I am talking about KARMA strictly. Not this country's law.
I can do something "wrong" according to the law, but that doesn't necessarilly mean it is EVIL, and thus creates negative Karma.
Now do you see what I mean?
I think I see what you are saying. So if I jaywalk, it's not going to create negative karma because there is no victim.
But we're not taking about jaywalking, or any other victim-less crime. We're talking about theft. Taking things that don't belong to you. And there is always a victim when there is a theft, even when you steal from a corporation.
Personally, though, I don't need to know if anyone is affected by my theft to know that it's wrong to take something that doesn't belong to me.
I just told my 9-year old that I was talking to people on the internet about stealing, and that some people say it's okay to take things from a corporation, even though it doesn't belong to them and they didn't pay for it. She thought for a minute, and she said, "These are adults?" I said yes. She thought for a minute more, then asked, "Are they mental?"
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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SkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2221087 - 01/05/04 04:43 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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Well, -shrugs- thats all folks. Everythings been said...this is where we shake hands; it's been a good debate. I suppose we'll just have to agree to accept our differences . Peace. There is no absolute and everything is relative. So we must judge according to the circumstances.
-------------------- Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.
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Frog
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Was fun, skorpivo. I'm done, too. Yer all a bunch of thieves, but I don't hold it against any of you.
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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trendal
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2221473 - 01/05/04 07:50 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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Well I do think that "stealing" is wrong, though it may come down to a definition of what "stealing" is exactly.
Stealing as an initiation of force is wrong, as is any initiation of force upon another rational being. Some argument could be made over stealing for survival...however there are almost always other options than stealing. Personally I think it wrong for a person to willfully withhold what they have in excess from a person who is in dire need (be it medicine, food, anything)...however I do not think there is an actual obligation to give away what you have earned. As I said, in nearly all cases there are options to stealing.
On the subject of cable/satellite "signal theft": there are some very real differences between "illegal cable hookups" and "satellite signal theft". The cable company directly pays for each TV hooked up to their system. Each person using the cable network causes some network degredation in the form of signal loss.
Satellite signals, on the other hand, are always there. Not only that, but the signal is being broadcast without your permission into your property. Whether you know/feel it or not, microwave radiation does have an effect on your body. In this case I view the satellite company in the wrong for initiating force against all of us.
Not everyone may agree, of course
--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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DoctorJ
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2221492 - 01/05/04 08:06 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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property is theft.
so
theft is property
capische?
what god-given right does anyone have to say that something belongs to them?
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Anonymous
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2221575 - 01/05/04 08:44 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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In the grand scheme of the universe, the idea of material property belonging to someone in particular is absurd. Therefore if nothing really belongs to anyone, considering property ownership as a creation of humanity, then any taking from another is based subjectively on circumstance and intent, as Skorpivo pointed out. There is no logical way out of the fact that theft is a crime created by humanity as a result of the idea of property ownership.
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Frog
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Re: Thief [Re: trendal]
#2221606 - 01/05/04 08:56 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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trendal: Some argument could be made over stealing for survival...however there are almost always other options than stealing.
I was talking to someone about this just about 2 hours ago!
Food banks, churches, other family members. Ask the store owner for a job, or even a few hours labor, in exchange for food. There are options to stealing.
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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Frog
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Re: Thief [Re: DoctorJ]
#2221614 - 01/05/04 09:00 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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Max Headroom and DoctorJ: I don't understand. Are you saying that we should do away with property ownership? We can't say that stealing isn't wrong simply because society created rules about property ownership. We do have those rules, and therefore stealing is wrong.
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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DoctorJ
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2221620 - 01/05/04 09:03 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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those rules are not intrinsic to god's universe. those rules were created by men. I don't want to do away with laws against stealing. I flat out refuse to acknowledge their existence. The laws of physics permit stealing. I am forced to obey the law of gravity (for now ) but I am not forced, by god or the universe, to obey any "rules" against theft
Edited by DoctorJ (01/05/04 09:05 PM)
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Anonymous
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2221637 - 01/05/04 09:10 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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We can't say that stealing isn't wrong simply because society created rules about property ownership. We do have those rules, and therefore stealing is wrong.
So you acknowledge that society created the rule of property ownership, and you're saying we should follow that rule simply because it exists? So if we created a rule, say, based on genocide, we should follow that rule because it exists? Property ownership exists because of human nature, not on some absolute moral.
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Frog
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Re: Thief [Re: ]
#2221644 - 01/05/04 09:12 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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Do you realize the chaos that would result if we didn't have rules?
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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DoctorJ
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2221656 - 01/05/04 09:18 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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do you realize that the universe is a lot older than rules? "Young man order puts up a good pace But Old Mother Chaos is winning the race." its a good thing.
Edited by DoctorJ (01/05/04 09:19 PM)
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OkEyToKeY
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Re: Thief *DELETED* [Re: Frog]
#2221657 - 01/05/04 09:18 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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Post deleted by OkEyToKeYReason for deletion: .
Edited by OkEyToKeY (01/05/04 09:19 PM)
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Frog
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Excuse me, but is there anyone on this forum that wants to take over and argue my position for me? I'm tired and my brain feels stupid tonight. Or else, I'm done talking about this for now.
Make all the excuses you want, rationalize away, but stealing is wrong.
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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Anonymous
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2221667 - 01/05/04 09:22 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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Yes, and humans are afraid of chaos, so they create rules to avoid it. I will assume from your question that you acknowledge that property ownership is a rule created by humanity, and mostly likely many other self-serving sentient species in the universe. Thus it is not absolute, and thus any judging the rightness or wrongness of stealing is not absolute, and thus any karma obtained from stealing is not absolute but based on intent and circumstance.
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DoctorJ
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2221669 - 01/05/04 09:22 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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frog, do you think that's "your" body?
you think thats "your" soul?
better watch out. I hear God breaks legs
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Frog
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Re: Thief [Re: ]
#2221680 - 01/05/04 09:27 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Max Headroom said: Yes, and humans are afraid of chaos, so they create rules to avoid it. I will assume from your question that you acknowledge that property ownership is a rule created by humanity, and mostly likely many other self-serving sentient species in the universe. Thus it is not absolute, and thus any judging the rightness or wrongness of stealing is not absolute, and thus any karma obtained from stealing is not absolute but based on intent and circumstance.
I stated this before, that Jean Jacques-Rousseau discussed how property ownership came about. So yes, it was created by humanity. Rules are created to maintain stability. The bible came along and God said thou shalt not take your neighbor's schitt. We also have karma. So even if the rules were started by society, I think they've been codified by God.
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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catalyst777
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Quote:
SkorpivoMusterion said: There is no absolute and everything is relative. So we must judge according to the circumstances.
Are you "absolutely" sure? hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Modern man has been educated into imbecility! Bask in the chaos~!
-------------------- Facts do not cease to exist just because they are ignored. Aldous Huxley
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SkorpivoMusterion
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biatch wut? Gimme your fuckin wallet, punk...
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catalyst777
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Is that you, Eminem?
-------------------- Facts do not cease to exist just because they are ignored. Aldous Huxley
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catalyst777
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Positronius said: Quote:
frog, where did the idea of karma come from, no wait, ill tell you: it came from India, where the religious elite use their ideas to keep their status and insure their control over society - the caste system. politics baby, you combine fantasy with politics and you dominate, thats the name of the game. but...why do I have to be an untouchable, im just a normal human? well dear sir, it is your karma to be the shit-heel of society, and it is my karma to remain rich, and my sons karma to inherit my wealth! muhahaha. Heres an idea, learn where your beliefs originated, then get back to me.
He KNOWS. He was in ancient India and Persia during the inception of of the Vedas, as well as the Torah and the Pentateuch. Yes, these were all fabrications created to control the leeches(humans). We are sure they are fabrications because they don't jive with the moral and scientific sentiments of the present. That is how we "KNOW". LOL!
-------------------- Facts do not cease to exist just because they are ignored. Aldous Huxley
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SkorpivoMusterion
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It's narrow-minded to assume that these beliefs were SOLEY derived from merely the need to regulate a society.
I believe that such is simply what happens as a "side-effect" when a belief becomes more widely accepted and so forth, it gets "stretched" a little more....it gets used in more different ways, and so on and so on.
-------------------- Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.
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Zero7a1
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2221818 - 01/05/04 10:34 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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Did you take a look at my scenario that i posted earlier? Maybe you will find it interesting... or you might think its bogus!
I wonder when human beings will learn individualy how to govern their own action. God is not here forcing us to believe, we make these choices for ourself. If a gold digging woman has a baby with a man, divorces him, takes the child and half his loot, but claims that she is the most fit parent. While the man has done hard to get where he was, given his trust, given a piece of Himself, but the woman gets custody. That would be stealing would it not? "till death do you part" but it is LEGAL by societies standards.
Does that still classify as stealing to you? Or is it not, because a piece of paper says its okay?
People need to follow their own minds, and make decisions for themselves about these kinds of things, there are certain situations where these "rules" do not apply, and it is these type of "situations" for which good people earn bad names, or come under fire because certain people like to capitalize on what is written on sheets of paper. I see no justice at all in that.
-------------------- What?
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catalyst777
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I hope you know i was being sarcastic in my last post. I was poking fun at what Positronius said.
-------------------- Facts do not cease to exist just because they are ignored. Aldous Huxley
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SkorpivoMusterion
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I was suspecting you did, but I wasnt sure....-shrugs- with the way people argue here on this forum, It's no surprise alotta shit gets "missed".
-------------------- Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.
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Frog
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Re: Thief [Re: Zero7a1]
#2221849 - 01/05/04 10:48 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Zero7a1 said: Did you take a look at my scenario that i posted earlier? Maybe you will find it interesting... or you might think its bogus!
I wonder when human beings will learn individualy how to govern their own action. God is not here forcing us to believe, we make these choices for ourself. If a gold digging woman has a baby with a man, divorces him, takes the child and half his loot, but claims that she is the most fit parent. While the man has done hard to get where he was, given his trust, given a piece of Himself, but the woman gets custody. That would be stealing would it not? "till death do you part" but it is LEGAL by societies standards.
Does that still classify as stealing to you? Or is it not, because a piece of paper says its okay?
People need to follow their own minds, and make decisions for themselves about these kinds of things, there are certain situations where these "rules" do not apply, and it is these type of "situations" for which good people earn bad names, or come under fire because certain people like to capitalize on what is written on sheets of paper. I see no justice at all in that.
Yes, I went and looked at your post. Something about when is it appropriate to lie.
And in this current scenario that you are posting about, I am aware that women lie and do terrible things, and then get custody of the kid. Somebody has to get custody. It doesn't automatically go to the woman these days, you know. And if the woman is a bitch/slut/cunt, whatever, and the guy is a hero, and she gets custody, that would be wrong. So? I don't think I get the point you are making. Sorry.
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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Zero7a1
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2221867 - 01/05/04 10:55 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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Im not trying to make any generalizations or anything like that. Im just saying, would you not consider it stealing to take the child away, and half the assest, just cause someone wanted to get rich and go for a nice ride down money bag lane?
Most people dont consider this illegal, or stealing because it is okay by law, because these people (men and women) are not telling the truth. They have these very poor ass excuse for a relationship, and get married, someone has alterior motives, and they get the best end of the deal, but no one thinks twice about it as stealing.
The question i have is, is it only considered stealing if the act at hand is written as so on a piece of paper?
How can you begin to judge an action on a global scale, when the question itself is circumstantial? ---- I would like to hear Mr. Mushrooms analysis of his scenario involving the rope as well.
-------------------- What?
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Frog
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Re: Thief [Re: Zero7a1]
#2221888 - 01/05/04 11:07 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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I think you are making some kind of generalization, but I'm not sure what it is.
As to the wife who marries only for money and takes the kid upon filing for divorce, I know this is horrible. Is it stealing? I don't know. I do know it's lying and cheating. That's as bad as stealing. I suppose it's stealing.
I'm on your side on that issue, btw. Maybe you're trying to make a point with me, because I'm a woman, but let me tell you a story.
I practice law (just haven't gotten it right yet). Among my various specialities, I do family law. One of the reasons I don't represent women any more, in family law cases, is because of what you are saying. I associated on a case like that.
A woman had a man thrown in jail and was living in his house, that he had paid for from before the marriage, and was driving his new Mercedes SUV, and had his kid. She made up lies, after they were married for 7 months, to get his property. He had quite a bit of money. It took him a year to get his property back, and he spent approximately $35,000 in attorney's fees.
I understand that this is wrong. It's bad. It makes me sick. So? What is your point? I'm not trying to be obtuse, but I don't understand what you are trying to say. Do we agree on what you are saying?
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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Zero7a1
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2222223 - 01/06/04 02:06 AM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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Yeah. You agree that it was wrong, but technically by the standards of our law it is "legal". Im just trying to see if you are not basing what you think off of an institution.
my other point was that given the necessity of yourself as being a woman with children (ill admit that, ill explain in a sec). More specifically a mother, would you do technically "harmless" stealing in order to feed your children, because you cared for them? my next point question to that is, would you not think that if given what, for our purposes god has said in the bible, that god would not look upon that as something very forgivable? Sure there are consequences, but that comes with every choice we make, but i doubt that you would have to suffer considerably. But what you said about living over again, would you do it for your kids?
I wasnt really making a generalization. But trying to get you on to a personal level, because we are talking about each others ideas. So i chose something that would connect with you. Other than that, i didnt have any other intentions, other than how you would be connected with a given scenario given your position.
-------------------- What?
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TeKn0
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2222263 - 01/06/04 02:36 AM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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You seem to bear your own subconscious karma on yourself. I steal a loaf of bread to save my life, from (well.. a place with allot of bread), I feel no worse than the next guy. You on the other hand seem to be so reliant on societies ethical/religious propaganda that you would rather die and have your whole family die of starvation, while you kneel praying to god, hoping for him to do something? or lest we forget, if the cashier were kind enough to give you a loaf of bread, he would indeed still be stealing from his place of employment. I haven't been posting here often, but I read this thread and seriously think you need to reconstruct your religious/ethical belief system, or at least stop arguing the point of karma and or god, that of which cannot be proven.
-------------------- Listen, or your tongue will keep you deaf. ŦēҜй? - ??ĜįĈ?? ҒűČҝĮńĜ ?đVǻŃčЄмЄńŦ
Edited by TeKn0 (01/06/04 02:37 AM)
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Anonymous
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Re: Thief [Re: Zero7a1]
#2222544 - 01/06/04 08:33 AM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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I would like to hear Mr. Mushrooms analysis of his scenario involving the rope as well.
What exactly do you want me to comment on? This is a very long thread and I may have missed something.
I did watch a lot of thieves find creative ways to rationalize their behavior though.
Interesting stuff.
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Frog
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Re: Thief [Re: ]
#2222599 - 01/06/04 08:56 AM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mr_Mushrooms said: I would like to hear Mr. Mushrooms analysis of his scenario involving the rope as well.
What exactly do you want me to comment on? This is a very long thread and I may have missed something.
I did watch a lot of thieves find creative ways to rationalize their behavior though.
Interesting stuff.
LOL!!!
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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Frog
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Re: Thief [Re: Zero7a1]
#2222817 - 01/06/04 10:34 AM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Zero7a1 said: my other point was that given the necessity of yourself as being a woman with children (ill admit that, ill explain in a sec). More specifically a mother, would you do technically "harmless" stealing in order to feed your children, because you cared for them? my next point question to that is, would you not think that if given what, for our purposes god has said in the bible, that god would not look upon that as something very forgivable? Sure there are consequences, but that comes with every choice we make, but i doubt that you would have to suffer considerably. But what you said about living over again, would you do it for your kids?
What a coincidence! When I was in my 20's, I was poor and struggling. The bum wouldn't pay child support. There were some really difficult times, as you would expect for a mom of three kids under 10.
One month, I didn't have rent money, for various reasons, or food. I had no family to help me. But I didn't steal!
I called social services, and they gave me a list of places that had food banks, or financial assistance, or clothes. I made a lot of phone calls. I found a place that gave away free food twice a week, and I found a church that paid my rent that month. I also went to a class offered by the electric company. They would pay your electricity for the month if you could prove you need the help and if you attended a class. I had to let my phone go, because it wasn't a necessity.
Maybe my problem is that I interpret the bible a little too literally. It says "don't steal". So I don't steal. It doesn't specifically "say" when you can steal and when you can't. Maybe I have to try harder to read between the lines.
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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Frog
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Re: Thief [Re: Zero7a1]
#2223054 - 01/06/04 12:24 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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Yeah. You agree that it was wrong, but technically by the standards of our law it is "legal". Im just trying to see if you are not basing what you think off of an institution.
No! I just re-read this. No!
It's not "legal" for a woman to lie about a guy in order to get his money and property. It comes down to who is a better liar, and who can get away with it. I have personally been able to refute lies on behalf of my client, because I am diligent and will find the evidence to support our side.
I have learned that people are mostly bad. Maybe. I don't know for sure yet. But I started working in the business world about 5 years ago. I used to think people were good. I don't think so any more. Most people are in it for themselves and will do whatever they have to to succeed, to get money, power, whatever. They will pretend you are a friend and then use you for their own advancement.
This happens everywhere. It doesn't mean it's legal. It's just that people are bad and will try to get away with shit, because they are lazy and weak. It's easier to steal, it's easier to lie, because then you get what you want without having to work too hard for it.
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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Zero7a1
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Re: Thief [Re: ]
#2223175 - 01/06/04 01:06 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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The story about you, the construction job, and the rope? Your thoughts on that, is what i wanted to know, i didnt get a clear picture of your stance towards that when you described what happened.
-------------------- What?
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Zero7a1
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2223198 - 01/06/04 01:12 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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People almost always try to rationalize their behavior, they must be "right in their own regards". Im not trying to say stealing is great! or that its always okay, but given the circumstances, you gotta do what you gotta do, you choose the situations and you face the consequences. Most people try to be smart and avoid consequence, given the scenario about these people who lie and wreck families, they do not care for other people.
Our justice system sends a lot of people to jail for rather harmless crimes, selling pot, and mushrooms as one of them. It is not considered wrong by us, but our government doesnt think like we do.
My mom was young, she had recently been divorced, no formal college degree, we lived off food stamps. We do have welfare , but shes worked her ass off to get this far. I know she doesnt agree with stealing, she is a very, how would i say, good mother?
But i do know that if she had to, when we were kids, she would steal a loaf of bread to feed her children, given that she had NO other options. The power of love? Not too far from what we is taught in a lot of religous texts... I got the whole reading between the lines thing , its important to analyze the information you recieve and not always just make judgements from first glance.
-------------------- What?
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Swami
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Re: Thief [Re: Zero7a1]
#2223238 - 01/06/04 01:26 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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she would steal a loaf of bread to feed her children, given that she had NO other options.
Had no other options or was unable to see any other options or was too lazy to look for other options? There are differences between all three. I know of a ghetto youth who robbed a convenience store with a gun becase "he had no other options". (Course he could have sold the gun for food...)
That is the beauty of rationalizing ANY unethical act. There is ALWAYS an out.
-------------------- The proof is in the pudding.
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Frog
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Re: Thief [Re: Zero7a1]
#2223250 - 01/06/04 01:31 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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And then that's what people say when they run out of arguments. "You shouldn't be so judgmental."
I'm being judgmental in the sense that I claim stealing is wrong. I'm not saying, "You are going to hell for stealing that loaf of bread."
I have a little more empathy for people than that. If someone thinks their only option is to steal, and they steal and apologize to God or the Universe or whoever, after they steal, I believe they are forgiven for their actions. But personally, I will not resort to stealing if faced with dire straights.
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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Swami
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2223267 - 01/06/04 01:38 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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... and apologize to God or the Universe or whoever, after they steal, I believe they are forgiven for their actions.
Cool. So I can rape murder, steal, adulterate or whatever as long as I feel remorse after-the-fact and then act contrite. This is good to know...
-------------------- The proof is in the pudding.
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Frog
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Re: Thief [Re: Swami]
#2223283 - 01/06/04 01:43 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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LOL!!!
No, it doesn't quite work that way, and I think you know this. But I'll explain myself anyways, since I have 10 more minutes to waste.
God can see our hearts, what's in them. I can kill someone, and then pretend to be sorry so that I can still go to heaven, but God knows I'm just phuckin' with Him, and I'm not going to be forgiven or go to heaven.
I'm talking about genuine remorse, not "pretend" remorse in order to get what I want.
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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Swami
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2223302 - 01/06/04 01:48 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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I have NEVER known a criminal to turn himself in that was not under suspicion and a manhunt. People almost NEVER feel remorse until they are caught, then they weep big crocodile tears (a la Kobe Bryant).
Why not feel the remorse BEFORE the act and not do it? Cuz that takes all the "fun" out of it.
-------------------- The proof is in the pudding.
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Renegade8
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2223325 - 01/06/04 01:54 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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Here's another question for ya: Which is worse, taking an old printer worth about $100 from my employer or stealing countless hours screwing around on the Internet?
Where do you draw the line? Theft of property is the obvious stuff, but the unseen thefts are where big dollars are lost...she says as she steals another hour from the company...
-------------------- I'm just see-through faded, super jaded, and out of my mind. - R.I.P. Layne
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Frog
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Re: Thief [Re: Swami]
#2223331 - 01/06/04 01:56 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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Well, I agree with you.
I don't do bad things, mostly. Lately, I've been probably being bad, even though I know what I'm doing is probably not right. I'm being weak. I haven't thought "It's okay, I'll pray for forgiveness afterwards." I'm more like one of those that will try not to think about it until I'm forced to make a decision between right and wrong.
Ultimately, if I choose to do wrong, I will feel alienated from God the entire time I'm doing the wrong. Yes, I know that I will be forgiven if I ask for forgiveness, later, after I'm done having fun ( )but I can't ask for forgiveness until I know I'm not going to keep committing the same sin.
Did I just provide you with a lot of fuel or what???
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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Frog
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Good point. Go pray for forgiveness.
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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Positronius
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2223342 - 01/06/04 02:00 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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blech.
-------------------- and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll
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quemo
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2223498 - 01/06/04 02:51 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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frog, snap out of it
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Renegade8
Niggar please
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2223621 - 01/06/04 03:45 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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See, yet another advantage of not working for The Man. You get to fuck around on the Internet all you want & not rack up all this bad karma (oops, just earned myself some more )
BTW - How goes that resolution about staying off the site 'til 5:00?
-------------------- I'm just see-through faded, super jaded, and out of my mind. - R.I.P. Layne
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Frog
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Quote:
Renegade420 said: BTW - How goes that resolution about staying off the site 'til 5:00?
Renegade is a personal friend of mine, just in case anyone thinks any of this is serious.
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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Zero7a1
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Re: Thief [Re: Swami]
#2223924 - 01/06/04 06:12 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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i did say NO other options. and no im not trying to rationalize this. Someone back in the day that couldnt get a job because they are a woman, kids couldnt get money for selling dead flowers, or whatever, they had to freakin eat! No church for food, they were too hungry to make it! This is a pretty bad situation... they take the bread, and they know its not "right" but they gotta do what they gotta do! I already made an out of the outing for the rationalization, in my previous scenario, they didnt really have a choice. (btw, it didnt take place inside a developed area with access to heated building and a mail box to pick up any time of government aid ) is it unethical because you say it is? Cause you think it is? Or because thats the way society sees ALL such actions. Did you post a response in Mr. Mushrooms thread about ethics or moral code... cant remember the name.. you would recognize it .
-------------------- What?
Edited by Zero7a1 (01/06/04 06:14 PM)
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Frog
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Re: Thief [Re: Zero7a1]
#2223970 - 01/06/04 06:29 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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So what we should do is separate an wrong act from judging someone for taking the wrong action. The "morally" or "ethically" wrong action, because they felt they had a pretty darned good reason.
I think I see what you are saying. It's all well and good to sit here on a message board and say, in the Voice of God, "It's wrong to steal", when reality for some people is that they cannot take such a strong position and watch their children starve to death.
I was lucky to be in a large metropolitan area (I think it is), where there were many churches, social services, etc., from where to obtain help. If I didn't have so many resources, would I have stolen rather than watch my children cry out in hunger? Probably.
I guess I've been thinking in terms of this: (Trying to show my train of thought)
God said he would take care of us. There are these passages in the bible were God, or Jesus, says that if he will clothe the lilies of the field, if he will feed the birds of the air, why wouldn't he do more than that for us, His children?
So I believe that I don't have to steal in order to obtain food, even when I have nothing left with which to buy food, because God promised to take care of me.
Then, I was thinking about how there are people in areas that are dying because of corrupt governments, or because of war, or famine, or illness. They have no money. There appear to be no resources. It would seem that an awful lot of people are dying and it would seem that God isn't doing what He promised.
But then, I am thinking that karma somehow plays into all this. That somehow, these people are supposed to have these lives, because they are learning a lesson (not being punished) that they need to learn, because of something they did or didn't do, or learn, in a past life.
So THEN, I think, well, stealing is wrong. If my children are starving, stealing is still wrong. If my children are dying, stealing is still wrong. Maybe it's our karma to die like this, and accept it, and learn from it.
But even further, I'm not saying I'm going to sit on my ass and simply pray. I'm going to pray, and then I'm going to investigate all my options.
Bottom line, however, if it came down to watching my children starve, I would hope I wouldn't steal, but there's a good chance I would.
This is different, though, from stealing from a big corporation just because "the corporation can afford it".
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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chunder
marker
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Posts: 966
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2223993 - 01/06/04 06:39 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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There are these passages in the bible were God, or Jesus, says that if he will clothe the lilies of the field, if he will feed the birds of the air, why wouldn't he do more than that for us, His children? Birds "steal" from dumpsters all the time. Birds will take any food that isn't guarded. The lillies growing in my field don't ask to use the nutrients in the soil or the sunlight that shines onto my legal property. These birds and lillies are stealing from me all the time! If God tells them to feed themselves by STEALING FROM ME, then God is a thief himself!
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NariusFractal
Sat Chit Ananda
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Loc: USA
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2224242 - 01/06/04 08:22 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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I got really drunk one night. I drank a few drinks with and this twister Citrus/rum/tequilla/coke drink. Then some beers.. anyways I drank WAY too much and ended up throwing eggs at a car out of the window of the moving truck I was in and unsuccessfuly stealing a can of shlitz malt liquor from Kash n' Karry. These moronic activities ocurred at 2 a.m. So I got caught walking out of the store with the beer in my pocket. The cops came, cuffed me, took a polaroid of me cuffed with the beer in my pocket and harassed me. One of the police men commented on my choice of beer by saying, "Coulda stole a good tasting beer at least." Hehehe well the point of this post is that my attempt to be a thief cost me well over 700 U.S. Dollars. This money went to the nice people at the Salvation Army. I also had to pick up trash for 16 hours on the side of the road. So as a consequence of my thieving, the results were as follows: some money for the needy, cleaner highways, and me learning some valuable lessons. Kash n Karry got their beer can back, and the courts made some money. Alls well that ends well.
-------------------- You are the microcosm of the macrocosm.
Edited by sheister (01/06/04 08:30 PM)
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NariusFractal
Sat Chit Ananda
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... and to reply to the philosophical, ethical, theological, theodicy, ethical, .... concerns;
Marx considered private property as an illusion and one of the culprits of the alienation of man. Applying this theory, theft is a fallacy as the person never really owned it.
-------------------- You are the microcosm of the macrocosm.
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SkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
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Re: Thief [Re: chunder]
#2224328 - 01/06/04 08:55 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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Squirrells come into MY own damn yard and STEAL MY OWN damn acorns off of MY OWN DAMN TREE, which is MY FUCKIN PROPERTY! Damn THIEVES, I tell ya! THIEVES!
-------------------- Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.
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chodamunky
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2224387 - 01/06/04 09:35 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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Excuse me, but is there anyone on this forum that wants to take over and argue my position for me?
Do you not realize you are the only one so stuck up in your belief? see quote below.
Make all the excuses you want, rationalize away, but stealing is wrong.
Believe what you wanna believe, who needs reason, logic, and proof anyway when blind faith in an ideology gives us the illusion of security and a superficial meaning to our lives?
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Frog
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That's okay, cuz I'm done. Stick a fork in me.
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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OkEyToKeY
Registered: 02/18/02
Posts: 88
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Re: Thief *DELETED* [Re: chodamunky]
#2224396 - 01/06/04 09:41 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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Post deleted by OkEyToKeYReason for deletion: .
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SkorpivoMusterion
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this is why I said...long, long ago...set aside the bible.
-------------------- Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.
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Amnesiac
Re-memberingcosmic wisdom
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2224427 - 01/06/04 09:57 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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How redundant this discussion is!
I couldn't even read all the posts, but I'll put in my two cents.
There is no absolute answer to this quesion. Stealing, like murder, can be justified under certain circumstances, and no negative karmic consequence will occur.
Frog, your concept of karma is lacking one simple understanding... that is, that a greater good can be done, with good intentions, by stealing something. One's karma does not suffer if he commits an act, with positive intention, for a greater good.
If you are dying of starvation, and cannot steal even a slice of bread from the hand of the one who is responsible for your very starvation, then to me, you are not a morally superior protector of karmic justice, only a fool.
And if you were in such a situation, I find it difficult to believe that you would pass up the opportunity to steal some food from a rich man to save your life due to your noble moral inclinations. Your pseudo-righteousness would surely crumble, in my opinion.
Almost anything is justifiable given the proper circumstances. Karma does not punish an act for the greater good.
-------------------- Here we are, in these bodies, on this planet in an endless universe. This is not the extent of who we are... merely an extension of who we really are.
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chodamunky
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2224451 - 01/06/04 10:16 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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I have actually read the entire thread from the beginning, many people challenged your belief on many different levels. I am impressed by your stamina for sticking up for what you believe but at the same time I can't believe how mentally conditioned you have allowed yourself to become. I don't believe in God, the bible, or karma so I guess we are at polar opposites here.
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Frog
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I don't believe I have become "mentally conditioned". And even if that were the case, I don't think that makes me such a bad person for having the beliefs I hold. Again, keep in mind I'm not judging anyone. I'm just standing up for what I believe. No one here has to believe the way I believe.
And also keep in mind that for all I started out on a hard-core position that "stealing is always wrong", Zero was able to get me to question when it might be okay to steal. I hope I don't get put to the test, in order for me to learn when it's okay to steal.
So, I'm open-minded when someone makes a good argument. I'm not so close-minded that I will stand my ground, even in the voice of "reason", even if it sounds like "iffy" reason.
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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OkEyToKeY
Registered: 02/18/02
Posts: 88
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Re: Thief *DELETED* [Re: Frog]
#2224713 - 01/06/04 11:50 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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Post deleted by OkEyToKeYReason for deletion: .
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Frog
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No, sorry, I will now have to commit hari kari. Good bye.
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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Zero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2224755 - 01/07/04 12:07 AM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
So what we should do is separate an wrong act from judging someone for taking the wrong action. The "morally" or "ethically" wrong action, because they felt they had a pretty darned good reason.
yes, something like that
Quote:
I think I see what you are saying. It's all well and good to sit here on a message board and say, in the Voice of God, "It's wrong to steal", when reality for some people is that they cannot take such a strong position and watch their children starve to death.
i agree. ---
I understand your conviction in keeping faith in god.
Just trying to see your position of what you think in action, and really understand what stance you would take given the circumstances. Like what you said at the top ^ . -------- Im always thinking about those scenarios, questioning myself with stuff like that. Probably why i cant get a girl friend, anyway. Thinking im always being tested
-------------------- What?
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Deiymiyan
I AM
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2225544 - 01/07/04 09:46 AM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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No, sorry, I will now have to commit hari kari. Good bye.
Ouch!
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Frog
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Just teasing.
*Sigh*
I was hoping everyone would stop posting on this thread. I feel like I have a duty to respond since I created it, but when I see it sinking down to the bottom of the page, I start to breathe a sigh of relief, and then DAMN!, someone posts again!
Stop posting!!! Aaargh!!!
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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chodamunky
Cheers!
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2225858 - 01/07/04 11:48 AM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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lol, ok we will stop posting, right everyone? I think this is/was an excellent thread, and you are fun member to have around here. Though we differ greatly on matters of belief, I did find something that we have in common, your name is frog, and my nickname is froggie. My friends call me this because my eyes 'pop out' when I smoke bud and I look like Kermit. Over and out.
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Frog
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There's a story about why my name is Frog, but someone will have to beg to make me tell it...
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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SkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2226351 - 01/07/04 03:36 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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It's cuz you make snoring sounds during your sleep that's strikingly similar to a Frog going....-ribbit-...-ribbit-....-bud-.......-weis-......-er-......-croak-
I hit the nail on the head, didn't I??
-------------------- Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.
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Viaggio
ChemicalConsumer
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2226400 - 01/07/04 03:56 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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i doubt karma is supposed to be treated as some sort of spiritual currency or reincarnation credit history. living life with that mindset seems...harsh.
"nothing is either right or wrong, but thinking only makes it so." --shakespeare
-------------------- "...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."
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Positronius
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Re: Thief [Re: Viaggio]
#2226408 - 01/07/04 04:00 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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yes, it seems that frog has successfully christianized karma into stringent set of rules based on good and evil.
im wondering, frog. You say you believe in the bible, do you believe in heaven and hell? if so...doesnt that cancel out your belief in karma? - which is based on the presumption of numerous rebirths?>
-------------------- and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll
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Frog
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Karma is not incompatible with the bible. Also, I read Edgar Cayce's writings, which point out passages of the bible that support reincarnation.
Guess what? I was in court today, and the D.A. and the judge appeared to have the same beliefs that some of you have, that sometimes it's okay to lie.
Actually, not that it was okay to lie, but that if you stole in order to feed your family, your sentence would be mitigated. Maybe instead of getting 3 years in prison, you might get 6 months, sentence suspended. The judge and D.A. specifically agreed upon this.
Just thought this was interesting to go to court and hear this today.
The "Frog" story is because we used to swear on another forum and most of us got kicked off. It was a family forum. I chose that name "frog" to represent "fuck", because my friend, Renegade, used say, "Hey ya fuck." See?
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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Positronius
playboy
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2226767 - 01/07/04 06:34 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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frog "Karma is not incompatible with the bible. Also, I read Edgar Cayce's writings, which point out passages of the bible that support reincarnation."
so is your belief system soley based on a few books youve read?
-------------------- and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll
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Frog
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And people to whom I've spoken. And not just a few books. Quite a few books. And bible studies. I've been learning my whole life in different places. I've learned from thieves, I've learned from liars, and I've learned from good, honest people.
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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SkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,954
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
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Some people's beliefs are based on a few experiences....
Some people's beliefs are based on pre-programmed dogma influenced beliefs jammed down their throats by their parents, friends, etc....
Some people's beliefs are based on whatever they just feel to be true..
Perhaps's Frog found the books that emphasized what Frog had already felt to be true and thus furthered her beliefs...
In the end...it doesn't matter....because we all go back to our home when we die.
-------------------- Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.
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Frog
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Quote:
SkorpivoMusterion said: Perhaps's Frog found the books that emphasized what Frog had already felt to be true and thus furthered her beliefs...
That's a good point, Skorpivo. More than likely, what started as Catechism in Catholic school, when I was little, found support when I recognized it as I grew older. (???)
Okay, how about this: Yes, if a foundation was started in me as a child, it would make sense that I'm going to build on that foundation with like materials.
But keep in mind, I am still smart and rational. I've been through college. I've been a rebel. I've pulled away from God at several points. After all I've seen and done and heard, I've found that there is truth in what I learned as a child, and I've added to that knowledge and expanded on it, on my own.
This means going against traditional Christian beliefs, such as when I say that karma isn't incompatible, or that I believe in reincarnation.
I'm taking concepts from my childhood and adding to them things I've learned as an adult, regardless of from where I've learned them.
I could be wrong, in what I've been piecing together. But I don't think I'm going to hell for it. (*grin*)
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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Positronius
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okay Frog, so you think stealing is really bad.
what do you think about tax? which, basically, is theft. The government steals from you and builds schools, hospitals, roads and fights wars with your stolen money.
I assume you are against tax's (if not, then you have some problems with your logic) , yes?
-------------------- and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll
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Frog
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Yes, I am against taxes. (I am also pretty much a conservative. )
I agree that taxing the rich to feed the poor is stealing. But I disagree that taxing to build things for public benefit is stealing.
Now, we are sort of getting into law and politics and social stuff here, which is fine with me, but I must admit that I don't follow this too much. I am getting into fuzzy territory and you could really mess me up.
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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Positronius
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2226812 - 01/07/04 07:03 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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"But I disagree that taxing to build things for public benefit is stealing."
it doesnt matter if you disagree, it is equally theft. See...now you are compromising your beliefs for certain circumstances that YOU agree with, thats no good.
So whats your opinion with health care? should rich people pay for poor people's hospital bills? (which is essentially theft). Or should poor children be left to die?
now...If I was a christian, which I'm not, I would think it was my duty to help the dying child....theft or no theft.
-------------------- and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll
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Frog
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This is a really good question, and one I have not thought about, so I can't give a quick answer.
At first glance, it would seem you are right, that I am being inconsistent.
Hmmm. Is the government stealing? Legally? Probably. And I think people have gone to jail for tax evasion, in protest over the theft.
This also ties in with something someone else said. Society created this law. Congress passed this law to pay for a war. Society agreed to pay the tax, or it would have revolted, right? But the tax was supposed to be for a limited time. The government, though, already had its hand in our collective pockets, and liked it there. What are you going to do?
So this isn't really "stealing" in context with what I am talking about. This is the government enacting a law, and society not objecting to it.
There. Have I wavered enough?
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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jpod
Stranger
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Posts: 107
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I personally disagree that taxes are equal to theft. I feel that owning a citizenship to your country and choosing to work in your country are in essence agreements to abide by the laws of said country. The government has the constitutional right to tax (16th Amendment I believe). ------------------------------------------------ The Webster's definition of theft: theft \Theft\, n. [OE. thefte, AS. [thorn]i['e]f[eth]e, [thorn][=y]f[eth]e, [thorn]e['o]f[eth]e. See Thief.] 1. (Law) The act of stealing; specifically, the felonious taking and removing of personal property, with an intent to deprive the rightful owner of the same; larceny. Note: To constitute theft there must be a taking without the owner's consent, and it must be unlawful or felonious; every part of the property stolen must be removed, however slightly, from its former position; and it must be, at least momentarily, in the complete possession of the thief. See Larceny, and the Note under Robbery. ------------------------------------------------- I think that since it is understood beforehand that by being a citizen, working, and doing buisiness, you have agreed to give the government taxes in exchange for giving you these rights. Simply disliking and resenting the fact that you must pay taxes does not override the fact that the agreement was already in place. Thus, there is no taking without the owner's consent.
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Frog
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2226842 - 01/07/04 07:21 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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This is the thread that never ends, it just goes on and on my friends. Some people started writing it, not knowing what it was and they'll continue writing it forevever just because.
This is the thread that never ends...
(Sung to the tune of "This is the song that never ends".)
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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Positronius
playboy
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Re: Thief [Re: jpod]
#2226844 - 01/07/04 07:22 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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frog: " Society agreed to pay the tax, or it would have revolted, right?"
wrong, please dont generalize society as one social group, many people rose up and protested, the US gov't didnt listen.
Jpod: "I personally disagree that taxes are equal to theft. I feel that owning a citizenship to your country and choosing to work in your country are in essence agreements to abide by the laws of said country."
your patriotism is completely irrelevant, taking money from people without their permission is theft. Threatening to imprison them if they dont pay is extortion.
jpod: "by being a citizen, working, and doing buisiness, you have agreed to give the government taxes in exchange for giving you these rights."
Tax's have nothing to do with agreement, they are forced with threat. We never signed up to be citizens of our respective states, we were born into this situation and there is no alternative than to conform to the reality of money, which is coupled with tax.
-------------------- and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll
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Frog
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I don't know. For now, I'm going to have to say that taxing isn't theft, because we have given our permission to the gov. to take our money.
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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Positronius
playboy
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2226851 - 01/07/04 07:25 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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but we havent, so....your whole belief system has a huge hole in it.
-------------------- and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll
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Frog
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Was going to go consult with my guru again, but I changed my mind.
I'm going to stand on my last post and say it's not stealing. And even if it IS stealing, it's not the kind of stealing I'm talking about.
I'll let someone else elucidate on this issue.
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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Frog
Warrior
Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
Loc: The Zero Point Field
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
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Re: Thief [Re: jpod]
#2226877 - 01/07/04 07:37 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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I like jpod's rationalization.
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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jpod
Stranger
Registered: 10/14/03
Posts: 107
Loc: DeeSee
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Like I stated, the government has a constitutional right to tax. Putting people in jail if they don't abide by the given laws of the country is simply their way of enforcing their laws.
This is the same constitution that gives you a right to free speech and all the other rights that we hold dear. If it was not in place the government would have no right to tax you. Just as you would have no rights of freedom. Since when are we given the choice which laws we would like to obey, and which laws we don't? If I don't like the set of rules, am I not free to leave? We may have been born into our situation but we are not confined to it. One could easily go someplace where no government would know about him and live out their life.
If I invite a person into my home is it not reasonable to expect them to abide by the rules of my home, or force them to leave? Or would this qualify as blackmail?
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Positronius
playboy
Registered: 11/27/03
Posts: 947
Loc: montreal-vancouver-tokyo
Last seen: 19 years, 7 months
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Re: Thief [Re: jpod]
#2226903 - 01/07/04 07:52 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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"Like I stated, the government has a constitutional right to tax. Putting people in jail if they don't abide by the given laws of the country is simply their way of enforcing their laws."
-so the government has a right, because they wrote a letter saying they have a right, and they throw people in jail to enforce this "right".
wow! what a bunch of bullshit.
"If I don't like the set of rules, am I not free to leave? We may have been born into our situation but we are not confined to it. One could easily go someplace where no government would know about him and live out their life."
no you're not free to leave, where are you going to go with no money? what country would accept you? how are you going to eat? are you going to grow food? ha! try to find some decent land that wont be taxed.
-------------------- and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll
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SkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,954
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2226910 - 01/07/04 08:00 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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How about getting your actual Guru to post HERE himself/herself!
-------------------- Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.
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jpod
Stranger
Registered: 10/14/03
Posts: 107
Loc: DeeSee
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Yes, the government has a right just because they wrote a letter saying they have this right. Just like they give you the right to say whatever you want, and hold whatever beliefs you want without laws prohibiting it. Unfortunately since it is written into the laws of the country it becomes a legal matter. The government writes the laws that the country must abide by, not you or any other single person. If you don't like the laws, you can do something about it. You are free to assemble and gather in protest, to speak to your representatives in the goverment about your views. You don't like those ideas? You are also of course free to run for office yourself and gain a position of power! Yes, the people in office are not born and named to office, they lobby for the position and are elected by their peers! Any citizen can do this!
I'm curious as to how an individual feels that it is fine to pick and choose which laws of the country are ok to abide by. This would be a great thing right? I'm sure there are plenty out white supremacists out there that would love to be able to ignore the 13th Amendment! Surely, this must be ok with you? After all, they certainly did not choose to be born into a country in which slavery is illegal. Why then should they have to follow such laws?
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Positronius
playboy
Registered: 11/27/03
Posts: 947
Loc: montreal-vancouver-tokyo
Last seen: 19 years, 7 months
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Re: Thief [Re: jpod]
#2226936 - 01/07/04 08:18 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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blather all you want, it is still theft. And you shouldnt automatically assume everyone is American.
-------------------- and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll
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chodamunky
Cheers!
Registered: 02/28/02
Posts: 2,030
Loc: sailing the seas of chees...
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2226976 - 01/07/04 08:44 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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Was going to go consult with my guru again, but I changed my mind.
I've heard you mention your guru several times, is he an actual person you go to with problems or questions or whatever???
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Viaggio
ChemicalConsumer
Registered: 07/05/03
Posts: 1,296
Last seen: 18 years, 26 days
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2227100 - 01/07/04 09:42 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Positronius said: so the government has a right, because they wrote a letter saying they have a right, and they throw people in jail to enforce this "right".
firstly, the constitution is more than a letter. by the gov't and they, you're referring to who that entity represents...us. we are the government, and it's a dynamic tool we use to keep things peaceful and productive. secondly, taxes are absolutely essential and should be appreciated. with just a piece of everyone's earnings, we fund ways to protect our way of life. without taxes...well, we'd be sitting ducks. but taxes do so much more than fund protection. my apologies if you're not american...
anyway, that was way off topic. we have wised up a little bit more over the past few centuries to recognize that things are much less black and white, right or wrong, and more like grey. i agree completely with the judge, d.a., and skorpivo: everything is relative, so judge according to the circumstances.
-------------------- "...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."
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Frog
Warrior
Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
Loc: The Zero Point Field
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
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Why, actually, yes! He's a pretty smart critter, too. When something doesn't make sense to me, I go to him to discuss whatever it is.
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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Anonymous
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Re: Thief [Re: Zero7a1]
#2227116 - 01/07/04 09:49 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Zero7a1 said: The story about you, the construction job, and the rope? Your thoughts on that, is what i wanted to know, i didnt get a clear picture of your stance towards that when you described what happened.
When I was an apprentice I saw a piece of plastic rope that was just laying around. It was about 25 feet long and belonged to the company I worked for. I didn't ask anyone if I could have it, I just took it.
It belonged to them and I stole it.
They probably would have given me the damn thing if I would have asked.
I felt terrible about it.
I never took so much as a steel washer after that without asking.
Does that answer your question?
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Anonymous
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2227133 - 01/07/04 09:54 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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Hey, I am just wondering. Do you guys like to type, or what?
My eyes are bleeding.
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Frog
Warrior
Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
Loc: The Zero Point Field
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
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Re: Thief [Re: ]
#2227142 - 01/07/04 09:56 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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I only answer these posts with my own in order to practice. I don't actually believe a word I say!
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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Anonymous
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2227156 - 01/07/04 10:02 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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Yes, I can see that with a thread like this anyone could improve their typing skills 500% if they kept it up.
I actually used to post to practice my writing skills.
The answers do these questions are pretty simple really. But evidently some people get hung up when someone tells them something is right or wrong.
I have to tell you though. I see some glaring inconsistencies between this thread and the one I started asking people about their foundations for ethics. Most everyone said at that point that the Golden Rule was the way to go. As I mentioned before I would how many of these "rationalizers" would like to be stolen from?
Marxism looks good on paper but that's about the extent of it.
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Frog
Warrior
Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
Loc: The Zero Point Field
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
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Re: Thief [Re: ]
#2227167 - 01/07/04 10:04 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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I thought about starting a thread on ethics, but since you already did one, I'll have to go find it. As I posted on Swami's thread on "materialism", it bothered me that that attorney wanted to end a case just because it was eating into his profits. He wasn't concerned about the client's rights.
I am not really bothered by it, I just wanted to practice my typing some more.
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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Frog
Warrior
Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
Loc: The Zero Point Field
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
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Quote:
SkorpivoMusterion said: How about getting your actual Guru to post HERE himself/herself!
I did try to get him to come post here. He's really arrogant. He can't be bothered. *Sigh* Sorry. But he doesn't mind discussing these things with me.
He believes a lot of the same things that I believe, but he's been figuring them out longer than I have. LOTS longer. I argue with him pretty much the way people here have argued with me. He is very consistent, and he's meaner than I am.
For instance, I was talking to him about how can it be wrong to steal if a woman has children and she can't afford to feed them. He said the mom should put them up for adoption and not be so selfish to try to keep them when they could have good homes somewhere else. Then, she wouldn't have to steal to feed them, either.
See?
I said that seemed pretty harsh, because she's a mom and we shouldn't expect moms to give up their kids just because they are enduring a hardship.
He said that, bottom line, stealing is wrong, and if you can't afford to feed your kids, do the kids a favor and give them to homes that can afford to feed them.
He's mean. But he's got a good point. Then he told me about Clarence Thomas, who was supposedly very poor and didn't steal and grew up to be a supreme court justice. Also, about a mom whose husband was molesting the daughters, and she burned the house down and put all the kids in foster homes and got a job and after a while, she could afford to take them back again. She didn't steal.
He laughed at all the rationalizations I told him about, when I was getting his opinion. He told me to stop wasting my time.
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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SkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,954
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2227388 - 01/08/04 02:18 AM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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hmm..sounds like quite a character indeed..
-------------------- Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.
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Frog
Warrior
Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
Loc: The Zero Point Field
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
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You guys would hate him, and actually, truth be known, I invited him to another forum once, and he came across so arrogant that people just went after him big time. He didn't care, either. They would attack his ideas, and he would just laugh and shrug them off and start a new thread. Then, when he had turned everyone upside down, he left. I think that the people at that forum had a lot of insecurities. So when he started posting and showed he didn't care what others thought, they wanted to drag him down and make him care, make him feel bad. He just laughed. It's funny when he laughs stuff like that off. I feel bad when people are mean to me. I went back about a month later and people were still talking about him. *Grin* We don't really want him here. LOL.
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
Edited by Frog (01/08/04 02:28 AM)
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SkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,954
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2227437 - 01/08/04 02:48 AM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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Ohhohoohoooa...Bring him in OTD. See what happens....
-------------------- Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.
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Alan Stone
Corpus
Registered: 11/23/02
Posts: 986
Loc: Ten feet up
Last seen: 18 years, 9 months
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In medieval times, the people were taxed too. Why? Because the king or had the power to do so, because he owned the enire country and all the people in it. No one was free. In the times we live in, we'd like to think of ourselves as free to do whatever we want. The truth is your prescious Constitution was written by those who seized the power, and it's now being shoved down the throat of everyone being born on US soil. You're not free, you're not a part of the U.S. government. They'd just like you to think so. What it comes down to is those in power only care for more power. If Bush Junia didn't even get elected by a majority of votes, how can you think your 'voice' has more than half an ounce of weight?
Very little of the money the U.S. government goes to anything that would benefit the masses. That's why it's a right wing country, and not a socialist one. What does your government do for you besides provide meager education (the best education has to be paid for dearly and doesn't match up to that in Europe)and build and maintain a road network? Granted, your government doesn't steal as much as my government does, for example, but my government gives more in return. It funds better education, a health system you can fall back on, pension payments, unemployment fees, classes you can take if you're unemployed, and so on.
So, basically, what I'm saying is this: taxation is theft, because the government is taking something that's yours, because they have the power to do so. There's no other reason.
-------------------- It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle
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SkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,954
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
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What country are you in?
-------------------- Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.
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Frog
Warrior
Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
Loc: The Zero Point Field
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
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I agree that it is theft when they take the money for social programs.
But if we all of us here on this forum got together to start a new country on an uninhabited island, we'd have to pave roads, and put in electricity, and form a police department to protect me from you thieves. This would all cost money.
To pay for it, we would probably start a "mandatory" contribution system, or whatever. I know, let's call it "taxes", and we'll automatically deduct it from your check and use the money to pay for public stuff, roads and stuff. Whatever that's called. Public works?
Taxing people to pay for stuff like that is a lot different from taking money to pay for all the other schitt to which we didn't agree.
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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Frog
Warrior
Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
Loc: The Zero Point Field
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2228003 - 01/08/04 10:50 AM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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Actually, even though we want to call it theft, I'm still going to go with jpod's reasoning on why it's not theft. Just ignore me.
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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Anonymous
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2228075 - 01/08/04 11:26 AM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Frog said: You guys would hate him, and actually, truth be known, I invited him to another forum once, and he came across so arrogant that people just went after him big time. He didn't care, either. They would attack his ideas, and he would just laugh and shrug them off and start a new thread. Then, when he had turned everyone upside down, he left.
I think that the people at that forum had a lot of insecurities. So when he started posting and showed he didn't care what others thought, they wanted to drag him down and make him care, make him feel bad. He just laughed. It's funny when he laughs stuff like that off. I feel bad when people are mean to me.
I went back about a month later and people were still talking about him. *Grin*
We don't really want him here. LOL.
Gee, that sounds like someone I know that posts here. Hmmm, what is his name again?
Shrugs
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Frog
Warrior
Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
Loc: The Zero Point Field
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
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Re: Thief [Re: ]
#2228100 - 01/08/04 11:32 AM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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MM, the funniest thing...Last night, I almost wrote that my friend reminds me of you, but then I was thinking maybe I didn't know you well enough to say that, so I deleted my words.
Yes, I've seen you in action over in OTD, and you don't care, either. You are balls out over there, or whatever the expression is, and it's pretty funny. That's how my friend it, too. Just says it like it is, and even when people go after him for what he says, he laughs and moves on. They HATED him.
/moving on to the t hread on animals and humans. /looking for brain.
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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Anonymous
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2228130 - 01/08/04 11:48 AM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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I guess a lot of it depends on whether you care to be admired by insecure people. I don't.
I have had two common reactions from my presence, make that three.
1. Respect 2. Hatred 3. Fear
One time when a member had been made a moderator they actually said, "I'm not afraid of you, Mr. Mushrooms." As if I wanted people to fear me. And 3DSHROOM, the former owner of the Shroomery, told me that some of the administrators were afraid of me.
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Zero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland
Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
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Re: Thief [Re: ]
#2228195 - 01/08/04 12:14 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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Well i guess i just wanted to hear what was in side that head of your head . But i guess its too simple, i dont know, i thought you would have made a comment on the topic at hand, and maybe relate it to your ethics thread. You have kind of done that, i dont know, maybe the depth escapes me.
-------------------- What?
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Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
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Re: Thief [Re: ]
#2232904 - 01/10/04 07:27 AM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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have had two common reactions from my presence, make that three. You appear to take this far more seriously than most. While your ego may demand that people must "hate" you I can assure you this isn't the case. 99% of people will view you as nothing more than just another utterly anonymous guy on a shroom board. You appear to have great difficulty distuingishing between "complete and utter indifference" and "hatred". Try and work on comprehending reality rather than letting the ego run away with itself.
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Frog
Warrior
Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
Loc: The Zero Point Field
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
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Re: Thief [Re: Xlea321]
#2232915 - 01/10/04 07:38 AM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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I can't believe you pulled this thread back up. I thought it was finally dead.
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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Renegade8
Niggar please
Registered: 10/11/03
Posts: 386
Loc: Orange County
Last seen: 15 years, 7 months
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2232927 - 01/10/04 07:53 AM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Frog said: I can't believe you pulled this thread back up. I thought it was finally dead.
Told ya it wouldn't die. I laughed my ass off when I saw it back on the first page this morning.
-------------------- I'm just see-through faded, super jaded, and out of my mind. - R.I.P. Layne
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Anonymous
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Re: Thief [Re: Frog]
#2232929 - 01/10/04 07:55 AM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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Alex has had a fascination with me for years. He can't help himself.
He defends his hatred by giving it the appellation, 'indifference'. This bears a striking parallel to those whose hatred manifests itself in states of depression. It is hatred in the extreme. Notice his hyperbole and extrapolate accordingly.
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Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
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Re: Thief [Re: ]
#2233001 - 01/10/04 10:01 AM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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No hatred whatsoever. And no fascination either. I just thought you needed to try and understand reality rather than let your ego run away with you. You really are just another anonymous guy on a shroom board to me and more than likely all the other people you claim "hate" you. Is that so painful for your ego to adjust to? Do you seriously think I can be bothered to "hate" a complete stranger on a shroom board? Don't judge everyone by your own standards. Relax a little.
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Anonymous
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Re: Thief [Re: Xlea321]
#2233831 - 01/10/04 07:40 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
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The person who would believe that is the one who hasn't read enough of your posts.
You think you're clever. You're not.
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