|
Some of these posts are very old and might contain outdated information. You may wish to search for newer posts instead.
|
bennylava
Bad example


Registered: 05/29/15
Posts: 587
Last seen: 6 years, 9 months
|
Gas exchange
#22191602 - 09/05/15 07:18 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
In another thread that wasn't mine there seeme to be some debate on gas exchange. When it comes to invitro. Viodlets grass seed tek and others like it seem to me, to sort of go against the conventional wisdom. Thus the debate the members were having.
With the grass seed ziplock container tek there doesn't seem to be much GE going on. Yet the mushrooms still grow, uninhibited. Or is there? With just leaving the container lids cracked, it seems to me that all gas exchange is happening through an opening that roughly equates to the size of a pencil eraser. Whats the deal with gas exchange? Some guides out there make it seem crucial, and others seem to leave little more than a pinhole for it.
Edited by bennylava (09/05/15 07:18 AM)
|
Appalachian Brony
Psilocyan Gosling


Registered: 03/23/15
Posts: 221
Loc: Dirty hills
Last seen: 4 years, 5 months
|
|
You're talking about two different, though similar, ideas. GE is necessary for respirating mycelium, otherwise it will consume all the oxygen. GE is necessary during colonization of spawn. When you want to fruit you need fresh air exchange (FAE) which will initiate pinning. FAE is more about clearing out CO2 levels and promoting evaporation than supplying oxygen.
The amount of FAE necessary is dependent on the size of the substrate and the culture. One of pinning triggers is full colonization of the substrate. Sometimes cubes will pin invitro on cakes or agar where there isn't any FAE. In the case of fruiting small cakes in a bigger jar, or rgs invitro, people usually help by fanning.
This doesn't scale up real well though. Cubes are hardy fuckers and will create fruits under sub-optimal conditions, but they want optimal conditions, including plenty of FAE.
|
bennylava
Bad example


Registered: 05/29/15
Posts: 587
Last seen: 6 years, 9 months
|
|
Which is weird, cause in violets tek she says leave lids tightened until its time to fruit. Wait until the mycelium fully colonizes, and at that point, you only crack the lids. That's it. No fanning, no nothing. Nothing but a tiny crack.
Doesn't this seem like very little GE is going on, throughout the entire process?
Now something like the PF tek, I can totally see GE happening, and happening a lot. You got those holes drilled along the bottom of the container, after all. Those holes would make for plenty of GE.
From the guide:
"Seal them while removing from the sterilizer until and after inoculation."
Edited by bennylava (09/05/15 11:48 AM)
|
blindingleaf
blue collar underworld


Registered: 07/19/13
Posts: 22,008
Loc: sub-surface unseen
|
|
u quoted the right part of the TEK.
tighten lids till after inoculation, so there is GE while the myc colonizes. she keeps them tightened btw PC and inoculation. then loosens them while stuff grows, and then (i don't remember but would guess) loosens them more of fruiting, but they are never completely open, u are correct.
there is very little grain in those compared to standard qt jars, thats why it works well.
-------------------- A few thoughts on cultivation MICROBIAL HUSBANDRY!!!! The whole is greater than the sum of its parts
|
bennylava
Bad example


Registered: 05/29/15
Posts: 587
Last seen: 6 years, 9 months
|
|
Quote:
blindingleaf said: u quoted the right part of the TEK.
tighten lids till after inoculation, so there is GE while the myc colonizes. she keeps them tightened btw PC and inoculation. then loosens them while stuff grows, and then (i don't remember but would guess) loosens them more of fruiting, but they are never completely open, u are correct.
there is very little grain in those compared to standard qt jars, thats why it works well.
Maybe I misunderstood your post. But you do know that she is saying you keep the lids tight until they're fully colonized, right? So the whole time the mycelium is growing, the lids are tight. There could be no GE. She never says to loosen them. Only tighten them after you inoculate them. At least, that's my understanding, and I didn't see anywhere in the tek where she said anything like "Go ahead and loosen the lids".
Maybe I missed that part too.
|
blindingleaf
blue collar underworld


Registered: 07/19/13
Posts: 22,008
Loc: sub-surface unseen
|
|
oh my bad then dude. when i did v TEK, i unscrewed them about 1/4 turn, as i thought that was part of the TEK. i loosened them even more during fruiting. but i'd listen to her, she does it more.

-------------------- A few thoughts on cultivation MICROBIAL HUSBANDRY!!!! The whole is greater than the sum of its parts
|
spacechildo
proletarians rise up


Registered: 01/24/13
Posts: 19,243
Loc: Babylon
Last seen: 6 years, 4 months
|
|
I think OP is talking about the one where the jar is his FC. put some grains or brf mix in the bottom, let colonize and loosen the lid.
me and V and a couple others had a debate on whether that's enough FAE or not. we know you dont really need fae, they'll grow in vitro, but they'll look thin and ugly and wont fulfill their potential (IMO/E)
|
Machiavelliavore
Vermiculite Hater



Registered: 12/08/14
Posts: 3,038
Loc: The Sporetorn States
Last seen: 3 months, 20 days
|
|
The reason the lids are not loosened for GE during colonization is that there is enough oxygen sealed in a quart container with a cup of substrate to colonize the whole thing. More than enough. If you try and put 3 cups of grains in a quart, you probably will need to untwist the lid a bit for GE (unless you get a godly noc off.)
Some varieties seem to grow better in high CO2 than others. Mine makes some ugly fruits and aborts fairly often, but still seems to yield what it's supposed to.
--------------------
I spawned some popcorn casings and had double-overlay cause I didn't put enough hydrogen peroxide in my automated aquarium mister. I only got one mushroom so I cut off the head part where the seeds fall from and put it in a jar of LC and sprayed it all over a tin of PF cakes I made with gravel, cardboard, and bisquick in my microwave. I think it will be good cause B+ is so potent. Triggered yet? Only a square would say "a cube is a cube."
No, this does not look right...
Edited by Machiavelliavore (09/05/15 02:32 PM)
|
spacechildo
proletarians rise up


Registered: 01/24/13
Posts: 19,243
Loc: Babylon
Last seen: 6 years, 4 months
|
|
I dont think there's been any debate whether you get them to colonize properly in the jars, but there was plenty about what adequate FAE means.
|
Machiavelliavore
Vermiculite Hater



Registered: 12/08/14
Posts: 3,038
Loc: The Sporetorn States
Last seen: 3 months, 20 days
|
|
Quote:
bennylava said:
Quote:
blindingleaf said: u quoted the right part of the TEK.
tighten lids till after inoculation, so there is GE while the myc colonizes. she keeps them tightened btw PC and inoculation. then loosens them while stuff grows, and then (i don't remember but would guess) loosens them more of fruiting, but they are never completely open, u are correct.
there is very little grain in those compared to standard qt jars, thats why it works well.
Maybe I misunderstood your post. But you do know that she is saying you keep the lids tight until they're fully colonized, right? So the whole time the mycelium is growing, the lids are tight. There could be no GE. She never says to loosen them. Only tighten them after you inoculate them. At least, that's my understanding, and I didn't see anywhere in the tek where she said anything like "Go ahead and loosen the lids".
Maybe I missed that part too.
I was answering that. Some strains get uglier than others I guess. It's not my preference for how to grow, but it seems to yield alright and require little human adjustment, so it seems good for beginners. Plus they end up with pp5 quart spawn jars instead of a worthless sgfc and some mutilated half pints.
--------------------
I spawned some popcorn casings and had double-overlay cause I didn't put enough hydrogen peroxide in my automated aquarium mister. I only got one mushroom so I cut off the head part where the seeds fall from and put it in a jar of LC and sprayed it all over a tin of PF cakes I made with gravel, cardboard, and bisquick in my microwave. I think it will be good cause B+ is so potent. Triggered yet? Only a square would say "a cube is a cube."
No, this does not look right...
|
spacechildo
proletarians rise up


Registered: 01/24/13
Posts: 19,243
Loc: Babylon
Last seen: 6 years, 4 months
|
|
Quote:
bennylava said: With the grass seed ziplock container tek there doesn't seem to be much GE going on. Yet the mushrooms still grow, uninhibited. Or is there?
this was the OP, I just assumed he mixed up GE and FAE like so many others do. and short 1/2 pts can be used as no pour plates and a sgfc can rock a good amount of exotics! I wouldnt call them useless.
|
Machiavelliavore
Vermiculite Hater



Registered: 12/08/14
Posts: 3,038
Loc: The Sporetorn States
Last seen: 3 months, 20 days
|
|
Or I could spend 3$ at dollartree and do all that.
--------------------
I spawned some popcorn casings and had double-overlay cause I didn't put enough hydrogen peroxide in my automated aquarium mister. I only got one mushroom so I cut off the head part where the seeds fall from and put it in a jar of LC and sprayed it all over a tin of PF cakes I made with gravel, cardboard, and bisquick in my microwave. I think it will be good cause B+ is so potent. Triggered yet? Only a square would say "a cube is a cube."
No, this does not look right...
|
spacechildo
proletarians rise up


Registered: 01/24/13
Posts: 19,243
Loc: Babylon
Last seen: 6 years, 4 months
|
|
not sure I get what you're saying there..?
my point still is even tho mushrooms will grow in vitro, or with lid cracked, they would love some more fae and give you better results.
|
Machiavelliavore
Vermiculite Hater



Registered: 12/08/14
Posts: 3,038
Loc: The Sporetorn States
Last seen: 3 months, 20 days
|
|
You can certainly get nicer looking results. I did a few invitro tests. They performed pretty much like PF cakes are supposed to. Some of the people doing it have much nicer looking fruits than I did. For a first time grower who's main concern is plz make mushrooms plz make mushrooms plz make mushrooms, I think it's pretty nice. And clean printing or stealth.
--------------------
I spawned some popcorn casings and had double-overlay cause I didn't put enough hydrogen peroxide in my automated aquarium mister. I only got one mushroom so I cut off the head part where the seeds fall from and put it in a jar of LC and sprayed it all over a tin of PF cakes I made with gravel, cardboard, and bisquick in my microwave. I think it will be good cause B+ is so potent. Triggered yet? Only a square would say "a cube is a cube."
No, this does not look right...
|
bennylava
Bad example


Registered: 05/29/15
Posts: 587
Last seen: 6 years, 9 months
|
|
I'm assuming FAE means "fresh air exchange". Like its a more constant and ongoing thing, than just gas exchange. I still don't know all the lingo. We need a lingo translator page.
Anyway so now that we've got all that established for my sake, I'd still like to talk about how barely cracking the lids is enough gas exchange for mushrooms. I guess that it is true, some air (however low in volume) will flow in and out of those cracks between the lids and the jars. But in my mind, that seems like way too little. Then again, what do I know. Maybe that's where I'm getting it wrong, and that amount of GE is somehow plenty.
I have the same problem conceptualizing why the PF tek (the more modern version) doesn't lose all its humidity due to all those holes, and how lousy a walmart bin seals around the top. Those bins really are some of the most poorly constructed pieces of crap on the market. The lids barely function at all, and can really only be said to be a lit because they'll sit on the top of the tub. They don't grip onto the container well at all.
And yet, the humidity stays in there, even with the poorly fitting lid, and holes drilled near the bottom for GE (or FAE if I'm confusing it). To me it just seems like your humidity would just equalize with the room. But apparently not.
Edited by bennylava (09/05/15 03:19 PM)
|
spacechildo
proletarians rise up


Registered: 01/24/13
Posts: 19,243
Loc: Babylon
Last seen: 6 years, 4 months
|
|
|
Violet



Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 4,205
|
|
Lids are cracked during sterilization, sealed tight during colonization, loose for fruiting.
What "debate" there has been for invitro fruiting has consisted of me repetitively stating that I get full - and high - yield/B.E. from my grows regardless of lids loose or entirely off in a fruiting chamber. Looks vary despite, and I consider them both trivial and variable due to other causes. I get fuzzy stems and non-fuzzy stems in the same methods, high FAE and low FAE non-withstanding.
Carry on :]
-------------------- Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it! PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers The simplest, quickest, safest tek! For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers! • Violet's Teks and Posts •
Edited by Violet (09/06/15 01:54 AM)
|
spacechildo
proletarians rise up


Registered: 01/24/13
Posts: 19,243
Loc: Babylon
Last seen: 6 years, 4 months
|
Re: Gas exchange [Re: Violet]
#22194628 - 09/05/15 09:14 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
I thought the debate was me saying spindly fruits are not fulfilling their potential and you talking about fuzzy feet in every response and saying as long as they dont die they're fine?
|
bennylava
Bad example


Registered: 05/29/15
Posts: 587
Last seen: 6 years, 9 months
|
|
Quote:
spacechildo said: like this?
GE is just gases escaping a colonizing jar. FAE is fresh air coming into and "old" air leaving the fc.
Thanks for the links!
But yes its just gasses escaping. What I'm having trouble visualizing is that its enough gas. She (violet is a she...right?) says that there is enough oxygen in the grass seed tek containers, for the myc to colonize. Obviously that's true, or it wouldn't colonize with the lids tightened down. So we know that much.
But I guess it has to be said, that the fruits just don't need much GE or FAE. All evidence says they don't need much of it. Right? Or Wrong? Cause they're getting some GE and FAE, from the cracked lids. However small, they're getting some. They have to be or they couldn't grow.
But now you get back to the thin stalks and the fuzzy feet, like you said. So now its more like "Well they're getting some, but its not enough". Ok so now, you have to ask if it matters. Are those fruits going to be potent enough? Is the yield going to be high enough? If so, maybe it doesn't matter so much, and they're getting "adequate" GE and FAE, even if it could be better. Its merely adequate.
|
Violet



Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 4,205
|
|
Child, "Your" debate was that. Not "The" debate. Yes, your uphill battle is against not only that "spindly" is not a real, quantitative thing beyond occasional convenient cherry-pickings, And that "fulfilling their potential" does not have other relevant/important factors than achieving full yield. No matter how many new threads you drop your incorrect preclusions in, it will never make them right.
BTW, this is the second time you have claimed I have ever said "if they don't die they're fine." Quit putting words in my mouth. You clearly don't even pay attention to your own debates.
Benny, that's pretty much it!
-------------------- Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it! PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers The simplest, quickest, safest tek! For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers! • Violet's Teks and Posts •
|
bennylava
Bad example


Registered: 05/29/15
Posts: 587
Last seen: 6 years, 9 months
|
|
Well thanks. Guess I got my answer.
But my mind will never stop with more questions. Why are some stalks skinny, and others, fat? Like with the PF tek, they're commonly fat stalks. But with this grass seed tek, I believe the word used was "spindly". I'm not still on the old debate, I'm just asking why there is a difference in size. Because I find it all very interesting.
|
Violet



Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 4,205
|
|
Long post time!
Mostly, differences in macroscopic appearances are due to genetics. Conditions do play a hand though. Most mushroom species do grow too thin under extreme CO2 conditions, and many grow trailer than they otherwise would too, resulting in something that's clearly not their ideal form. Blue Oyster is particularly bad about this, for instance. But Cubensis is not. As almost all of our Cubensis teks take advantage of, they are highly CO2 tolerant. Under conditions that other species wouldn't fruit properly or at all, Cubensis fruits in ideal fashion, and can even thrive. It takes a some real stifling to get them to deform.
Lots of people on here think in terms of CO2 retention/release, forgetting that the initial determining factor, in fact the reason for the topic at all, is CO2 PRODUCTION. Mycelium breathe out CO2. The main thing that causes excess is a giant substrate or substrates that produce increased amounts of mycelium, of which bulk substrates do both, such as in mono tubs which also confine their substrates to a small proportion of only overhead space for air. This is why there are whole threads, very active ones at that, dedicated to instructing how to 'tune' the tubs to get enough air, such as the one in FrankHorrigan's tek list which is the main mono modern. (I have never seen CO2 deformation in any of my containers as bad as a poorly tuned mono can get!)
The invitro Ziploc containers don't have such problems. The grain subs typically have less myc per area and a good proportion of overhead air. The lids can be used to 'tune' conditions but it's not complex, easily learned in the going flow of the practice as the user does it. (For instance, when I have a room with some good air movement in it the lids can end up being just cracked. In still air rooms they end up practically sitting on the threads, which should only be done when known that the containers won't lose their moisture.)
These conditions simply are not enough to cause a negative change in mushroom growth. Macro morphology is still well within proper Cubensis growth, and yields per substrate are definitely not stunted. If any particular genetic set might happen to grow taller in conditions that retain more moisture and CO2, then fine. Good, even! I've had some shorter strains that grew larger invitro due to more retained moisture, warmth, and CO2. It was clearly caused by the conditions but was far from a problem. These two containers were the same isolate strain, for instance.
 
   See how the stems are longer, but barely fuzzy? The conditionsay have effected the fruit's appearance, but possibly for the better, and there aren't even signs of fuzzy stems which many people here say is a sure sign of too little FAE (I disagree). The bottles are significantly taller than the Ziploc quart containers, and their caps are tiny and don't allow much air exchange so high up there. Yet still the growth isn't problematic, even at less air than the normal invitro containers provide!
-------------------- Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it! PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers The simplest, quickest, safest tek! For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers! • Violet's Teks and Posts •
Edited by Violet (09/06/15 08:18 AM)
|
bennylava
Bad example


Registered: 05/29/15
Posts: 587
Last seen: 6 years, 9 months
|
Re: Gas exchange [Re: Violet]
#22196232 - 09/06/15 09:01 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Very nice. Thanks for the explanation.
Now what bags do most people use, to go over the mouth of the container, like the one in the pic you posted. That doesn't look to me like a standard, large ziplock bag. I know it would vary from container to container, but is there some agricultural or gardening bag that I should know about? It looks like its made for the container, no tape or zip tie holding it on.
|
Violet



Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 4,205
|
|
That's actually a 2L soda bottle. I cut it at the widest point and slip it over the threads of pint containers. I find it easier than baggies, and it's re-using, the ultimate recycling. They can be with caps all the way loose, or better yet with just a touch of poly, or even completely open if conditions don't make it a problem!
-------------------- Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it! PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers The simplest, quickest, safest tek! For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers! • Violet's Teks and Posts •
|
bennylava
Bad example


Registered: 05/29/15
Posts: 587
Last seen: 6 years, 9 months
|
Re: Gas exchange [Re: Violet]
#22200559 - 09/07/15 03:46 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Violet said:They can be with caps all the way loose, or better yet with just a touch of poly, or even completely open if conditions don't make it a problem!
I'm afraid I don't understand this sentence. The part about caps, I'm guessing you mean cut the bottom off the soda bottle and use the cap for GE or FAE?
And I'm not sure what poly is. Like polyfill? And how could you ever leave it completely open? Like if you had a humidity controlled room?
|
Psilosoulful

Registered: 09/05/14
Posts: 7,205
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
|
|
Quote:
bennylava said: And I'm not sure what poly is. Like polyfill?
|
|