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Offlinebennylava
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Gas exchange
    #22191602 - 09/05/15 07:18 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

In another thread that wasn't mine there seeme to be some debate on gas exchange. When it comes to invitro. Viodlets grass seed tek and others like it seem to me, to sort of go against the conventional wisdom. Thus the debate the members were having.

With the grass seed ziplock container tek there doesn't seem to be much GE going on. Yet the mushrooms still grow, uninhibited. Or is there? With just leaving the container lids cracked, it seems to me that all gas exchange is happening through an opening that roughly equates to the size of a pencil eraser. Whats the deal with gas exchange? Some guides out there make it seem crucial, and others seem to leave little more than a pinhole for it.


Edited by bennylava (09/05/15 07:18 AM)


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OfflineAppalachian Brony
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Re: Gas exchange [Re: bennylava]
    #22191729 - 09/05/15 08:23 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

You're talking about two different, though similar, ideas. GE is necessary for respirating mycelium, otherwise it will consume all the oxygen. GE is necessary during colonization of spawn. When you want to fruit you need fresh air exchange (FAE) which will initiate pinning. FAE is more about clearing out CO2 levels and promoting evaporation than supplying oxygen.

The amount of FAE necessary is dependent on the size of the substrate and the culture. One of pinning triggers is full colonization of the substrate. Sometimes cubes will pin invitro on cakes or agar where there isn't any FAE. In the case of fruiting small cakes in a bigger jar, or rgs invitro, people usually help by fanning.

This doesn't scale up real well though. Cubes are hardy fuckers and will create fruits under sub-optimal conditions, but they want optimal conditions, including plenty of FAE.


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Offlinebennylava
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Re: Gas exchange [Re: Appalachian Brony]
    #22192294 - 09/05/15 11:41 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Which is weird, cause in violets tek she says leave lids tightened until its time to fruit. Wait until the mycelium fully colonizes, and at that point, you only crack the lids. That's it. No fanning, no nothing. Nothing but a tiny crack.

Doesn't this seem like very little GE is going on, throughout the entire process?

Now something like the PF tek, I can totally see GE happening, and happening a lot. You got those holes drilled along the bottom of the container, after all. Those holes would make for plenty of GE.

From the guide:

"Seal them while removing from the sterilizer until and after inoculation."


Edited by bennylava (09/05/15 11:48 AM)


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Invisibleblindingleaf
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Re: Gas exchange [Re: bennylava]
    #22192611 - 09/05/15 01:06 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

u quoted the right part of the TEK.

tighten lids till after inoculation, so there is GE while the myc colonizes.  she keeps them tightened btw PC and inoculation.  then loosens them while stuff grows, and then (i don't remember but would guess) loosens them more of fruiting, but they are never completely open, u are correct.

there is very little grain in those compared to standard qt jars, thats why it works well.


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Offlinebennylava
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Re: Gas exchange [Re: blindingleaf]
    #22192673 - 09/05/15 01:22 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

blindingleaf said:
u quoted the right part of the TEK.

tighten lids till after inoculation, so there is GE while the myc colonizes.  she keeps them tightened btw PC and inoculation.  then loosens them while stuff grows, and then (i don't remember but would guess) loosens them more of fruiting, but they are never completely open, u are correct.

there is very little grain in those compared to standard qt jars, thats why it works well.




Maybe I misunderstood your post. But you do know that she is saying you keep the lids tight until they're fully colonized, right? So the whole time the mycelium is growing, the lids are tight. There could be no GE. She never says to loosen them. Only tighten them after you inoculate them. At least, that's my understanding, and I didn't see anywhere in the tek where she said anything like "Go ahead and loosen the lids".

Maybe I missed that part too.


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Invisibleblindingleaf
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Re: Gas exchange [Re: bennylava]
    #22192691 - 09/05/15 01:25 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

oh my bad then dude.  when i did v TEK, i unscrewed them about 1/4 turn, as i thought that was part of the TEK.  i loosened them even more during fruiting.
but i'd listen to her, she does it more. 



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Offlinespacechildo
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Re: Gas exchange [Re: blindingleaf]
    #22192770 - 09/05/15 01:41 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

I think OP is talking about the one where the jar is his FC.
put some grains or brf mix in the bottom, let colonize and loosen the lid.

me and V and a couple others had a debate on whether that's enough FAE or not.
we know you dont really need fae, they'll grow in vitro, but they'll look thin and ugly and wont fulfill their potential (IMO/E)


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OfflineMachiavelliavore
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Re: Gas exchange [Re: spacechildo]
    #22193000 - 09/05/15 02:31 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

The reason the lids are not loosened for GE during colonization is that there is enough oxygen sealed in a quart container with a cup of substrate to colonize the whole thing.  More than enough.  If you try and put 3 cups of grains in a quart, you probably will need to untwist the lid a bit for GE (unless you get a godly noc off.)

Some varieties seem to grow better in high CO2 than others.  Mine makes some ugly fruits and aborts fairly often, but still seems to yield what it's supposed to.


--------------------


I spawned some popcorn casings and had double-overlay cause I didn't put enough hydrogen peroxide in my automated aquarium mister.  I only got one mushroom so I cut off the head part where the seeds fall from and put it in a jar of LC and sprayed it all over a tin of PF cakes I made with gravel, cardboard, and bisquick in my microwave.  I think it will be good cause B+ is so potent.
Triggered yet?

Only a square would say "a cube is a cube."


No, this does not look right...


Edited by Machiavelliavore (09/05/15 02:32 PM)


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Offlinespacechildo
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Re: Gas exchange [Re: Machiavelliavore]
    #22193012 - 09/05/15 02:34 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

I dont think there's been any debate whether you get them to colonize properly in the jars, but there was plenty about what adequate FAE means.


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OfflineMachiavelliavore
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Re: Gas exchange [Re: bennylava]
    #22193020 - 09/05/15 02:37 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

bennylava said:
Quote:

blindingleaf said:
u quoted the right part of the TEK.

tighten lids till after inoculation, so there is GE while the myc colonizes.  she keeps them tightened btw PC and inoculation.  then loosens them while stuff grows, and then (i don't remember but would guess) loosens them more of fruiting, but they are never completely open, u are correct.

there is very little grain in those compared to standard qt jars, thats why it works well.




Maybe I misunderstood your post. But you do know that she is saying you keep the lids tight until they're fully colonized, right? So the whole time the mycelium is growing, the lids are tight. There could be no GE. She never says to loosen them. Only tighten them after you inoculate them. At least, that's my understanding, and I didn't see anywhere in the tek where she said anything like "Go ahead and loosen the lids".

Maybe I missed that part too.





I was answering that.  Some strains get uglier than others I guess.  It's not my preference for how to grow, but it seems to yield alright and require little human adjustment, so it seems good for beginners.  Plus they end up with pp5 quart spawn jars instead of a worthless sgfc and some mutilated half pints.


--------------------


I spawned some popcorn casings and had double-overlay cause I didn't put enough hydrogen peroxide in my automated aquarium mister.  I only got one mushroom so I cut off the head part where the seeds fall from and put it in a jar of LC and sprayed it all over a tin of PF cakes I made with gravel, cardboard, and bisquick in my microwave.  I think it will be good cause B+ is so potent.
Triggered yet?

Only a square would say "a cube is a cube."


No, this does not look right...


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Offlinespacechildo
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Re: Gas exchange [Re: bennylava]
    #22193034 - 09/05/15 02:42 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

bennylava said:
With the grass seed ziplock container tek there doesn't seem to be much GE going on. Yet the mushrooms still grow, uninhibited. Or is there?




this was the OP, I just assumed he mixed up GE and FAE like so many others do.
and short 1/2 pts can be used as no pour plates and a sgfc can rock a good amount of exotics! I wouldnt call them useless.


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OfflineMachiavelliavore
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Re: Gas exchange [Re: spacechildo]
    #22193057 - 09/05/15 02:49 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Or I could spend 3$ at dollartree and do all that.


--------------------


I spawned some popcorn casings and had double-overlay cause I didn't put enough hydrogen peroxide in my automated aquarium mister.  I only got one mushroom so I cut off the head part where the seeds fall from and put it in a jar of LC and sprayed it all over a tin of PF cakes I made with gravel, cardboard, and bisquick in my microwave.  I think it will be good cause B+ is so potent.
Triggered yet?

Only a square would say "a cube is a cube."


No, this does not look right...


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Offlinespacechildo
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Re: Gas exchange [Re: Machiavelliavore]
    #22193072 - 09/05/15 02:52 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

not sure I get what you're saying there..?

my point still is even tho mushrooms will grow in vitro, or with lid cracked, they would love some more fae and give you better results.


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OfflineMachiavelliavore
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Re: Gas exchange [Re: spacechildo]
    #22193089 - 09/05/15 02:58 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

You can certainly get nicer looking results.  I did a few invitro tests.  They performed pretty much like PF cakes are supposed to.  Some of the people doing it have much nicer looking fruits than I did.  For a first time grower who's main concern is plz make mushrooms plz make mushrooms plz make mushrooms, I think it's pretty nice.  And clean printing or stealth.


--------------------


I spawned some popcorn casings and had double-overlay cause I didn't put enough hydrogen peroxide in my automated aquarium mister.  I only got one mushroom so I cut off the head part where the seeds fall from and put it in a jar of LC and sprayed it all over a tin of PF cakes I made with gravel, cardboard, and bisquick in my microwave.  I think it will be good cause B+ is so potent.
Triggered yet?

Only a square would say "a cube is a cube."


No, this does not look right...


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Offlinebennylava
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Registered: 05/29/15
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Re: Gas exchange [Re: bennylava]
    #22193143 - 09/05/15 03:14 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

I'm assuming FAE means "fresh air exchange". Like its a more constant and ongoing thing, than just gas exchange. I still don't know all the lingo. We need a lingo translator page.

Anyway so now that we've got all that established for my sake, I'd still like to talk about how barely cracking the lids is enough gas exchange for mushrooms. I guess that it is true, some air (however low in volume) will flow in and out of those cracks between the lids and the jars. But in my mind, that seems like way too little. Then again, what do I know. Maybe that's where I'm getting it wrong, and that amount of GE is somehow plenty.

I have the same problem conceptualizing why the PF tek (the more modern version) doesn't lose all its humidity due to all those holes, and how lousy a walmart bin seals around the top. Those bins really are some of the most poorly constructed pieces of crap on the market. The lids barely function at all, and can really only be said to be a lit because they'll sit on the top of the tub. They don't grip onto the container well at all.

And yet, the humidity stays in there, even with the poorly fitting lid, and holes drilled near the bottom for GE (or FAE if I'm confusing it). To me it just seems like your humidity would just equalize with the room. But apparently not.


Edited by bennylava (09/05/15 03:19 PM)


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Offlinespacechildo
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Re: Gas exchange [Re: bennylava]
    #22193159 - 09/05/15 03:20 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

like this?
http://www.shroomery.org/9423/Mycological-and-OMC-abbreviations
http://www.shroomery.org/5122/The-Shroomery-Mushroom-Glossary

GE is just gases escaping a colonizing jar. FAE is fresh air coming into and "old" air leaving the fc.


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InvisibleViolet
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Re: Gas exchange [Re: spacechildo]
    #22194610 - 09/05/15 09:11 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Lids are cracked during sterilization, sealed tight during colonization, loose for fruiting.

What "debate" there has been for invitro fruiting has consisted of me repetitively stating that I get full - and high - yield/B.E. from my grows regardless of lids loose or entirely off in a fruiting chamber.  Looks vary despite, and I consider them both trivial and variable due to other causes.  I get fuzzy stems and non-fuzzy stems in the same methods, high FAE and low FAE non-withstanding.

Carry on :]


--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!

PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek!  For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
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Edited by Violet (09/06/15 01:54 AM)


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Offlinespacechildo
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Re: Gas exchange [Re: Violet]
    #22194628 - 09/05/15 09:14 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

I thought the debate was me saying spindly fruits are not fulfilling their potential
and you talking about fuzzy feet in every response and saying as long as they dont die they're fine? :tongue2:


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Offlinebennylava
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Re: Gas exchange [Re: spacechildo]
    #22195492 - 09/06/15 01:49 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

spacechildo said:
like this?

GE is just gases escaping a colonizing jar. FAE is fresh air coming into and "old" air leaving the fc.





Thanks for the links!

But yes its just gasses escaping. What I'm having trouble visualizing is that its enough gas. She (violet is a she...right?) says that there is enough oxygen in the grass seed tek containers, for the myc to colonize. Obviously that's true, or it wouldn't colonize with the lids tightened down. So we know that much.

But I guess it has to be said, that the fruits just don't need much GE or FAE. All evidence says they don't need much of it. Right? Or Wrong? Cause they're getting some GE and FAE, from the cracked lids. However small, they're getting some. They have to be or they couldn't grow.

But now you get back to the thin stalks and the fuzzy feet, like you said. So now its more like "Well they're getting some, but its not enough". Ok so now, you have to ask if it matters. Are those fruits going to be potent enough? Is the yield going to be high enough? If so, maybe it doesn't matter so much, and they're getting "adequate" GE and FAE, even if it could be better. Its merely adequate.


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InvisibleViolet
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Re: Gas exchange [Re: spacechildo]
    #22195501 - 09/06/15 01:51 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Child, "Your" debate was that. Not "The" debate.
Yes, your uphill battle is against not only that "spindly" is not a real, quantitative thing beyond occasional convenient cherry-pickings,
And that "fulfilling their potential" does not have other relevant/important factors than achieving full yield.
No matter how many new threads you drop your incorrect preclusions in, it will never make them right.

BTW, this is the second time you have claimed I have ever said "if they don't die they're fine."  Quit putting words in my mouth.  You clearly don't even pay attention to your own debates.


Benny, that's pretty much it!


--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!

PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek!  For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
Violet's Teks and Posts


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