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OfflineDinkinFlicka84
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Denver - how to kill bacteria in WBS with PC?
    #22189210 - 09/04/15 05:48 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

My last batch of b(Oo)msicles contaminated right before or during their first flush. From what I've read over the last 2 years, I'm almost 100% certain that the issue my spawn.

So, does bacteria turn into trich?
I know there are tons of strains of mold, but apparently the least bit of bacteria in a jar, will fuck your grow up, without the decency of revealing it's true, Grinch-like colors.
Your mycelium looks great, colonizes the WBS 100%, but gets (pick a mold) as soon as your fungus baby comes out of the womb into FAE.

This is why I started with agar, which I'm proud to say has brought my success rate up considerably, at the same time, lowered my stress levels.

My question is regarding the right moisture content of WBS after a 24hr soak and/or simmer. I used the same WBS prep procedure as RR every time for consistency, except or drying. All of my spawn was G2G from 2 different 100% WBS jars, to add another variable as to keep contamination down.

Drying Procedure in short:
1. After 24hr soak in hot tap water, I strain once more and refill to let simmer for 10 min, then it sits in strainer until no more drips.
2. Then tossed around in strainer to get steam off/help dry.
3. Lastly spread out on towels, no more than ~.5" high with fans until they are dry to the touch, but still plump from the soak & simmer.

Too dry? The previous batch  DIDN'T EVEN COLONIZE ONE BIT! I didn't leave the WBS out overnight, but it may have dried out in the fans. hh.


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InvisibleBuck513

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Re: Denver - how to kill bacteria in WBS with PC? [Re: DinkinFlicka84]
    #22189247 - 09/04/15 05:55 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

24 hours is a bit long of a soak in my opinion. Why are you using hot water to soak?
You should be using the paper towel/spoon moisture test before you add your grain to jars to ensure they are at proper moisture content.


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Invisibleblindingleaf
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Re: Denver - how to kill bacteria in WBS with PC? [Re: Buck513]
    #22189703 - 09/04/15 07:19 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

post pics of ur plates u use, and the jars before u spawn next time for best answer.

bacteria can weaken mycelium, causing it to succumb to mold more easily.

what are ur PC times?  are u venting ur PC before putting the weight on?


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Re: Denver - how to kill bacteria in WBS with PC? [Re: Buck513]
    #22189754 - 09/04/15 07:28 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Buck513 said:
24 hours is a bit long of a soak in my opinion. Why are you using hot water to soak?
You should be using the paper towel/spoon moisture test before you add your grain to jars to ensure they are at proper moisture content.



it's a toilet paper test, have to fuck up pretty bad to fail a paper towel test:lol:


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Re: Denver - how to kill bacteria in WBS with PC? [Re: cronicr]
    #22189926 - 09/04/15 07:59 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

What does denver have to do with anything?


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Re: Denver - how to kill bacteria in WBS with PC? [Re: Inocuole]
    #22189937 - 09/04/15 08:01 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

i think he meant houston, like "houston we have a problem" but then he got stoned and accidentally revealed his location :uptosomething:


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InvisibleBuck513

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Re: Denver - how to kill bacteria in WBS with PC? [Re: cronicr]
    #22190015 - 09/04/15 08:19 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

cronicr said:
Quote:

Buck513 said:
24 hours is a bit long of a soak in my opinion. Why are you using hot water to soak?
You should be using the paper towel/spoon moisture test before you add your grain to jars to ensure they are at proper moisture content.



it's a toilet paper test, have to fuck up pretty bad to fail a paper towel test:lol:



Ya got me.


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OfflineDinkinFlicka84
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Re: Denver - how to kill bacteria in WBS with PC? [Re: Buck513]
    #22191493 - 09/05/15 06:02 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

I live in Denver, so it was a question regarding altitude and PC time or anything else that a mile higher than sea level would effect.

I use hot water when I soak b/c it's in the video with RR.

I know RR uses the paper towel test, which I get is simple, but RR also lets the seeds roll off of his hand without sticking, which is what I do to test it. They should be completely dry on the outside. However, how do I know when it's too dry? I've accidentally left 24 jars worth of WBS on towels drying out for a few days and they look shrunken, but have still worked all but once.

I'm curious if them being too dry would promote bacteria/mold.

BlindingLeaf: Thanks for the input about bacteria weakening the sub, b/c that makes a lot of sense, rather than it turning INTO mold.
My PC time is 90 min at 15 PSI. It's a massive PC that does 12 quarts at a time. I also let the steam out for a solid 20 min before putting the "wobbly cap" on.

Here's a number of pics from the past couple of months. The most recent pics of the plates I'm using now are coming, but condensation is preventing me from a decent pic, so when the heated glasses on top fix that problem, I'll post them.

As far as colonized jars go, I've seen thousands of good and bad and just terrible and every kind of mold. Bacteria, if I'm not mistaken, isn't usually visible. My final question is:

What are some causes of bacteria when using agar OR G2G in a SAB? I used to get bacteria from too much liquid in my LC inoculations.



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Invisibleblindingleaf
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Re: Denver - how to kill bacteria in WBS with PC? [Re: DinkinFlicka84]
    #22191577 - 09/05/15 07:03 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

If ur confident in ur grain prep and pc ing, most common causes of bacteria would be
-Not flaming blades till red hot
-it's in ur culture but entwined so hard to see (still white growth)
-temp in room too high

I'm on phone, so can't see pics clearly.


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MICROBIAL HUSBANDRY!!!!

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OfflineGreen Bastard
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Re: Denver - how to kill bacteria in WBS with PC? [Re: blindingleaf]
    #22192193 - 09/05/15 11:05 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

90 minutes, at 15psi is barely adequate at sea level, let alone up in Denver!!

I'm on the coast, and I go 2+hours at 15, or 1 3/4 hours at 20psi...


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OfflineMachiavelliavore
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Re: Denver - how to kill bacteria in WBS with PC? [Re: DinkinFlicka84] * 1
    #22192958 - 09/05/15 02:22 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Low quantities of bacteria in the spawn can get colonized over and never produce that trademark brown milky liquid.  Usually you can smell it.  It's quite the bitch that you can't smell your jars for G2G though.  Personally I would be tempted to just wait the extra time and noc every jar with a wedge or LI.

That sounds like a lot of drying.  After 20-30 minutes of straining in the colander, I find my WBS is pretty close.  My prep is simply to toss it into 4x volume boiling water, then let it sit for a 2-3 hours.  Then I usually put in a tote in the sun for an hour or two, turning it whenever I happen by.


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I spawned some popcorn casings and had double-overlay cause I didn't put enough hydrogen peroxide in my automated aquarium mister.  I only got one mushroom so I cut off the head part where the seeds fall from and put it in a jar of LC and sprayed it all over a tin of PF cakes I made with gravel, cardboard, and bisquick in my microwave.  I think it will be good cause B+ is so potent.
Triggered yet?

Only a square would say "a cube is a cube."


No, this does not look right...


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OfflineDinkinFlicka84
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Re: Denver - how to kill bacteria in WBS with PC? [Re: Green Bastard]
    #22196669 - 09/06/15 10:55 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Leaf: I always get my scalpal red hot when cutting my agar. I want to eliminate my bacteria so that my subs will 3-4 flushes without, contamination. My buddy has a GH exactly like mine, which is how I built mine in the first place. He's been a member on here for 6 years I think (Prismism) and he's never cleaned his GH. Does that make a difference with contamination since a fully colonized sub shouldn't "catch" contamination from mold spores in the air, despite the source?

If 90 min at sea level is simply "barely adequate," then why would RR say to PC at 15 PSI for 90 min? He's pretty thorough, so why would he tell us to PC the jars the bare minimum.

I've been doing 90 min @ 15 PSI for the years that I've be consistently doing this hobby. So I've created and PC'd over 1,000 jars total and I have had great success. Where did you get the info about PCing for more than 90 min?

I'll try the 2+ hr method next go 'round, since I just finished PCing 75 jars yesterday. Here are 3 jars I'm about to do G2G for 50 jars. These jars were knocked up agar plates with 0 contamination and with good sterile technique in my SAB. After that are my plates after 3rd transfer.



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Invisibleblindingleaf
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Re: Denver - how to kill bacteria in WBS with PC? [Re: DinkinFlicka84]
    #22196695 - 09/06/15 11:00 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

well, i should say, i PC jars a head of time a lot so i always have some ready in a tote, so i PC longer.
  those jars look free of bacteria to me, so stick with 90 if it works.  just was suggesting as alternative if problem persists.

those cultures, as far as i can tell, are free of bacteria.  the third pic looks iffy, but condensation might be skewing what i can see.

if u were having a problem with mold, i'd say clean the GH (i would do that personally, just cause I'm anal like that), but u won't catch bacteria from environment like that.

i dunno man.  thats weird.  where are u encountering what u think is bacteria?  during fruiting?


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OfflineDinkinFlicka84
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Re: Denver - how to kill bacteria in WBS with PC? [Re: blindingleaf]
    #22199948 - 09/06/15 10:36 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Yeah, my coir 50/verm 50 is pasteurized for 1 hour between      140f-160f and occasionally up to 175f. This disaster only happened with my last grow. I just wanted to eliminate the bacteria with any option I could.

And yes, the condensation just started when I heated my closet to a steady 80f. I don't ever go above 80f since the inside of the jars are 2-4 degrees hotter.

I have a reminder to clean out the GH with soapy water for the clear plastic/PVC cover and a bleach 1 pt/water 10 pts mix for the shelving.  but I'm glad you've also heard that a fully colonized cake can contaminate from mold spores ONLY IF it has bacteria, because the bacteria weakens the sub, like Leaf said, and my subs crumble to pieces before I can get a decent flush out of them. Like I said, it's been a good run with no major contamination problems that wiped everything I had going out, but hey, I've stayed diligent for over a year without more than an oz. to show for it.

Lastly:
I've been doing a ton of agar work recently. I was doing agar to WBS jar, with mostly clone agar, since It's a great strain and the mycelium for the clone, as you can see a few posts above, are quite healthy and strong. Now, that I've made a number of close, I also bought Burma, B+ and Chitwan. I've never had any of these or grown them,. but I just wanted you guys to know I'm not a bore.

If you have any more tips on eliminating my bacteria or suggestions regarding my shitty technique/process, please let me know.



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Edited by DinkinFlicka84 (09/07/15 02:41 AM)


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OfflineDinkinFlicka84
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Re: Denver - how to kill bacteria in WBS with PC? [Re: DinkinFlicka84]
    #22204089 - 09/07/15 07:46 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Here are 3 jars of 22 that went south from my last agar to WBS. Is this considered bacteria, or just mold? It got like this after about a week. Just very dusty inside and everything has a powdery green film.



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OfflineMasterPython
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Re: Denver - how to kill bacteria in WBS with PC? [Re: Green Bastard]
    #22204389 - 09/07/15 08:43 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Is there any reason a PC would not work as well at altitude? It should run at 15 psi no matter what the outside pressure is.


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OfflineDinkinFlicka84
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Re: Denver - how to kill bacteria in WBS with PC? [Re: MasterPython]
    #22205677 - 09/08/15 03:54 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

To be honest, I've never really experimented with it or have I even noticed contamination. I've just read countless forums on here regarding elevation and its effects on longer PCing times, etc... think a lot of the posts are half baked and people just want to seem like they know something everyone else doesn't. So, I like to throw that idea out there to see if someone's had experience with it.

Either way, here's my clone culture jar that I was planning on doing my G2G with tonight, but I'm about to pass out. Would my grain be alright since i already broke the 100% jar up?

Also, there's few pics that look green, but I assure you, it's teh lighting, because they look immaculately white.




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Re: Denver - how to kill bacteria in WBS with PC? [Re: DinkinFlicka84]
    #22206040 - 09/08/15 07:57 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Your altitude doesn't matter with a PC, its going to take longer to get to pressure by a minute at 5280+ feet. But if you boil water without a PC you do have to increase time due to altitude.

The PC makes your altitude irrelevant. The weight still weighs the same

I'm in Boulder CO right now at 6200FT.
Water boils at 200.1F but its still 250F in a PC with at 15psi.


Edited by Trusted cuItivator (09/08/15 08:02 AM)


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OfflineDinkinFlicka84
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Re: Denver - how to kill bacteria in WBS with PC? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #22210187 - 09/08/15 11:37 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Bodhisatta: Thanks for the info, which makes complete sense. I'm not sure why it was ever mentioned before as an issue on this site, but I figured I would cover my bases.


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Re: Denver - how to kill bacteria in WBS with PC? [Re: DinkinFlicka84]
    #22210245 - 09/08/15 11:53 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Stamets take on bacteria in my sig. But realistically 2+ hours with a lower pressure.. like around 20 psi would be sufficient for grains with high endospore count


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Re: Denver - how to kill bacteria in WBS with PC? [Re: Mad Season]
    #22213384 - 09/09/15 05:27 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)



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Re: Denver - how to kill bacteria in WBS with PC? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #27485676 - 09/28/21 08:25 PM (2 years, 3 months ago)

6 year old post -- and still golden. Thank you for saving me from more than doubling my PCing time due to altitude.


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Re: Denver - how to kill bacteria in WBS with PC? [Re: xVadisx]
    #27486037 - 09/29/21 06:28 AM (2 years, 3 months ago)

You absolutely must adjust time for altitude...

From page 23 of the All American manual



I highlighted beans because figure they are the closest comparison to our use. You can clearly see that they recommend doubling the time to safely can beans from 2-3k vs 3-7k altitude.


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Re: Denver - how to kill bacteria in WBS with PC? [Re: sandman420]
    #27486041 - 09/29/21 06:34 AM (2 years, 3 months ago)

I'm inclined to agree with the manual -- but I think I need some more research as I've now found a few conflicting opinions on here and just want to not f-up my PCing.


--------------------
Thanks to everyone for sharing what they know :smile:. 165F for 24hrs.

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Re: Denver - how to kill bacteria in WBS with PC? [Re: xVadisx]
    #27486043 - 09/29/21 06:36 AM (2 years, 3 months ago)

Go ahead and research it literally all of it says to increase time.

Pressure inside the pot is relative to pressure outside the pot. Atmospheric pressure is nearly 15 psi at sea level but is only about 12psi in Denver.


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Re: Denver - how to kill bacteria in WBS with PC? [Re: sandman420]
    #27486069 - 09/29/21 07:19 AM (2 years, 3 months ago)

I, unfortunately, totally think you're correct sandman. My real issue now is figuring out what adjustments to make as I've found several ratios at an altitude of 6000ft (ranging from a 1.2x multiplier all the way up to a 2.15x multiplier).

I'd rather not run three quart jars for 2.something times as long if I don't need to -- but if I do need to and it doesn't hurt the grains/brf/etc, I'm all for it. More time to grab a dab or two.


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Thanks to everyone for sharing what they know :smile:. 165F for 24hrs.

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Re: Denver - how to kill bacteria in WBS with PC? [Re: xVadisx]
    #27486071 - 09/29/21 07:22 AM (2 years, 3 months ago)

Just looking at the all american chart I'd say the 2.15x sounds about right if not enough from a 0ft altitude recipe. Since they only start at 2k ft and don't say what the 0ft time is as far as I can tell.


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Re: Denver - how to kill bacteria in WBS with PC? [Re: sandman420]
    #27486085 - 09/29/21 07:42 AM (2 years, 3 months ago)

Some more digging -- I think the 2.something might be overkill. I'll have to dial this in but somewhere closer to a 20% time increase should do it.

A quote I found that was helpful:
Quote:

"You absolutely will see 10psi on the gage. However what the gauge is displaying is a difference in pressure between what is in side the cooker and what is outside of the cooker. As sea level the outside air pressure is higher than in, say, Denver nearly one mile higher. In PSI the ambient air pressure in Denver is about 12psi. This is compared to a vacuum and is due to the amount of air piled up on top of everything. In Denver, there's less air pressing down on things because it is closer to outer space (vacuum). If you wonder why it all doesn't just get sucked off the planet, thank gravity. In any case, the absolute pressure inside the cooker at sea level is 14.7psi (atmosphere) plus 10psi (gauge) for a total of 24.7psia (pounds per square inch absolute). At this pressure the boiling temperature of water is 239.4F. In Denver the pressure inside the cooker is 12psi (atmosphere) plus 10psi (gauge) for a total of 22psia. At this pressure the boiling temperature of water is 233.1F. So you have to cook it a little longer to get the same effect. Something to be careful about is that just adding some extra weight to the relief valve can be a dangerous thing. The cooker is rated for gauge pressure not absolute. Just because the net pressure inside the cooker is lower it is still holding back 10psi of pressure compared to its surroundings. If you want more pressure in the cooker, you need to go lower in the atmosphere to get some ambient pressure assistance. On the shores of the Dead Sea you get a 5% boost in air pressure 15.4psi. So here the temperature inside the cooker at 10psi gauge is going to be 240.9F. " ( https://www.motherearthnews.com/real-food/pressure-cooker-altitude-adjustments-zb0z11zalt )




--------------------
Thanks to everyone for sharing what they know :smile:. 165F for 24hrs.

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