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starfire_xes
I Am 'They'



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If you are against Crony Capitalism, here is why we need to stop the flow of tax money to DC....
#22182104 - 09/03/15 08:49 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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So, we increase taxes, or borrow on a blank credit card, and the money poors into the coffers in DC. Right now the US has record revenues.
Then people bitch about the big companies bribing the politicians with big money to get them doing what the companies want them to do.
That's right, so think about this: if we severely limit what the government is allowed to spend, and on what, cut off the credit card, and make them spend responsibly the problem would disappear.
Why? Because all that money that the fucking loony left and the Phony Right like to spend--either from taxes or a credit card--
THAT IS THE QUID PRO QUO the companies get for buying politicians.
No money, no problem, right? But you say well 'the poor, blah blah blah. Well the money THEY get is the Quid Pro Quo for voting politicians into office. So if no one except the truly needy can get support, and the companies have no tax payer slush fund to keep them going, what happens?
1) Only the best and most efficient companies survive. 2) People have to tighten their belts, be responsible, and work and save.
If you say it isn't fair to the poor, well, life isn't fair. That's the laws of nature. I've been poor and their is one immutable truth--when a person truly wants to get out of that shit, they find a way.
And as far as poor, I don't mean poor like in the US. Frankly, Im just all broken up about 'poor people' who have cell phones, big screen TV's, and living a life style that is considered middle class in many countries--and they do it by sucking on the big ole government teat. fuck it.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: If you are against Crony Capitalism, here is why we need to stop the flow of tax money to DC.... [Re: starfire_xes]
#22182378 - 09/03/15 10:23 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yeah let's just remove the last roadblock for total corporate control.
That'll show the corporations.
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starfire_xes
I Am 'They'



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Re: If you are against Crony Capitalism, here is why we need to stop the flow of tax money to DC.... [Re: The Ecstatic]
#22182387 - 09/03/15 10:25 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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you completely missed the point.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: If you are against Crony Capitalism, here is why we need to stop the flow of tax money to DC.... [Re: starfire_xes] 1
#22182425 - 09/03/15 10:33 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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No I got it, it's just a terrible point.
Your solution to our house being robbed is to sell the house.
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starfire_xes
I Am 'They'



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Re: If you are against Crony Capitalism, here is why we need to stop the flow of tax money to DC.... [Re: The Ecstatic]
#22184456 - 09/03/15 07:17 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said: No I got it, it's just a terrible point.
Your solution to our house being robbed is to sell the house.
Nope. My solution to the house burning down is to cut off the fuel to the fire.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: If you are against Crony Capitalism, here is why we need to stop the flow of tax money to DC.... [Re: starfire_xes] 1
#22185496 - 09/03/15 09:54 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
starfire_xes said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said: No I got it, it's just a terrible point.
Your solution to our house being robbed is to sell the house.
Nope. My solution to the house burning down is to cut off the fuel to the fire.
That's a terrible analogy. Because without that same "fuel," we don't have a house.
It's the same argument used by Ronnie Raygun. "Government IS the problem." Yeah, so lets just defund everything and clear any and all speed bumps for the people ruining our country.
Once the corporations have unilateral control, surely they'll behave.
"Oh the drug cartels are bribing cops? That's terrible. Let's solve this drug cartel problem by defunding the shit out of the police force."
Yeah, brilliant. There's a reason nobody comments on your weekly rants.
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starfire_xes
I Am 'They'



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Re: If you are against Crony Capitalism, here is why we need to stop the flow of tax money to DC.... [Re: The Ecstatic]
#22185749 - 09/03/15 10:45 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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As long as the politicianis have a slush fund of taxpayer umoney to give to the corporations, the corruption will continue. I didnt say cut every dime--cut what is unecessary, which is a hell of a lot. As the whores say 'no money, no honey' YOu sound like Nancy Pelosi-- 'The republicans want to cut government' well I wish they really did want cut oovernment, because whoever cuts government gets my vote in a heartbeat.
So explain to me, Mr. Clueless, if there is no money to pay the corporations, how are they going to control everything???? they can't buy politiicians--they wont--if they cant get the quid pro quo. Is that so hard to see? Or are you stuck on the government is the solution to everything. And if you think that, then why is the country so fucked up?
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The Ecstatic
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Re: If you are against Crony Capitalism, here is why we need to stop the flow of tax money to DC.... [Re: starfire_xes] 1
#22185787 - 09/03/15 10:57 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
So explain to me, Mr. Clueless, if there is no money to pay the corporations, how are they going to control everything????
Corporations make money in ways other than by bribing politicians.
Quote:
why is the country so fucked up?
Because corporations have too much power and aren't effectively kept in check by the people.
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starfire_xes
I Am 'They'



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Re: If you are against Crony Capitalism, here is why we need to stop the flow of tax money to DC.... [Re: The Ecstatic]
#22185810 - 09/03/15 11:06 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Because corporations have too much power and aren't effectively kept in check by the people.
Now we are getting somewhere. And whose fault is that...DUH....?
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The Ecstatic
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Re: If you are against Crony Capitalism, here is why we need to stop the flow of tax money to DC.... [Re: starfire_xes]
#22185817 - 09/03/15 11:08 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Both people, and the corporations.
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starfire_xes
I Am 'They'



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Re: If you are against Crony Capitalism, here is why we need to stop the flow of tax money to DC.... [Re: The Ecstatic]
#22185918 - 09/03/15 11:48 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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who controls the money? the politicians. It isnt the corporations fault.
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
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Re: If you are against Crony Capitalism, here is why we need to stop the flow of tax money to DC.... [Re: starfire_xes]
#22186737 - 09/04/15 07:55 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Who's to blame when a corporation bribes judges to ignore due process?
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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The Ecstatic
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Re: If you are against Crony Capitalism, here is why we need to stop the flow of tax money to DC.... [Re: starfire_xes]
#22187964 - 09/04/15 12:55 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
starfire_xes said:
who controls the money? the politicians. It isnt the corporations fault.
You can't say the problem with politics is that corporations control it, and then say the exact opposite when it's convenient for you.
The people, the politicians, and the corporations all control the money, to a wildly varying degree. The corporations have assumed as much control as possible because the people and the politicians let them.
If the people force the politicians to make laws against the corporations co opting the legislative process, suddenly the corporations don't have their hand in the cookie jar (which is your original concern).
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Stonehenge
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Re: If you are against Crony Capitalism, here is why we need to stop the flow of tax money to DC.... [Re: starfire_xes] 1
#22188626 - 09/04/15 03:31 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Star, you have a good idea but you are looking at the wrong end of it. Sure, govt spending on the wrong stuff to pay back bribes needs to stop but stopping govt from wasteful and fraudulent spending is shoveling shit against the tide, it has been tried for centuries and we are still where we are.
We need to stop the bribery itself, that's what I've been preaching for years, a voice crying in the wilderness. Maybe finally people will listen. Stop all campaign contributions and make campaigns publicly funded. Stop all jobs after office with any company that benefitted by legislation passed or voted on by the pol. Same with speaking fees, which are thinly disguised bribes. Same with in kind contributions of ads helping a politician. And stop foreigners from buying political ads. That might be harder but it can be done.
I know there are a lot of details to work out and loopholes to plug but that is the only way to stop corruption, make it illegal. The public has been calling for an end to lobbying for decades but the crooks in office pay no attention and the media is on the side of the crooks.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


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Re: If you are against Crony Capitalism, here is why we need to stop the flow of tax money to DC.... [Re: Stonehenge]
#22188729 - 09/04/15 03:53 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stonehenge said: Stop all campaign contributions and make campaigns publicly funded.

Quote:
Stop all jobs after office with any company that benefitted by legislation passed or voted on by the pol. Same with speaking fees, which are thinly disguised bribes. Same with in kind contributions of ads helping a politician. And stop foreigners from buying political ads. That might be harder but it can be done
What about shareholders? Relatives?
Two real world examples that come to mind are Cheney/Haliburton and Rick Scott/Solantic.
How do we address these situations?
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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The Ecstatic
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Re: If you are against Crony Capitalism, here is why we need to stop the flow of tax money to DC.... [Re: paperbackwriter]
#22189096 - 09/04/15 05:23 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
paperbackwriter said:
Quote:
Stonehenge said: Stop all campaign contributions and make campaigns publicly funded.

Quote:
Stop all jobs after office with any company that benefitted by legislation passed or voted on by the pol. Same with speaking fees, which are thinly disguised bribes. Same with in kind contributions of ads helping a politician. And stop foreigners from buying political ads. That might be harder but it can be done
What about shareholders? Relatives?
Two real world examples that come to mind are Cheney/Haliburton and Rick Scott/Solantic.
How do we address these situations?
Force our courts to actually prosecute them.
The fact that a Medicare thief is running my state (the biggest Medicare state per capita) is fucking infuriating. I suppose that's on the voters though.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: If you are against Crony Capitalism, here is why we need to stop the flow of tax money to DC.... [Re: The Ecstatic]
#22189099 - 09/04/15 05:24 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Definitely agree with publicly funded campaigns though.
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Stonehenge
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Re: If you are against Crony Capitalism, here is why we need to stop the flow of tax money to DC.... [Re: paperbackwriter]
#22189336 - 09/04/15 06:09 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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>What about shareholders? Relatives?
Like I said it would be a bit complicated. We can bar relatives too, I don't know what you mean about shareholders. We want to make it clear that getting elected does not mean getting rich or richer. Once that is clear the bums will steer away and honest people will get in who will not have to fear a negative campaign funded by rich donors buying the other candidate. As it is now, the one who sells out the most usually wins.
>Two real world examples that come to mind are Cheney/Haliburton and Rick Scott/Solantic.
We stop all that crap from happening, that is an obvious conflict of interest. Did scott profit from his actions? That should be barred too.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


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Re: If you are against Crony Capitalism, here is why we need to stop the flow of tax money to DC.... [Re: Stonehenge]
#22190086 - 09/04/15 08:31 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: If you are against Crony Capitalism, here is why we need to stop the flow of tax money to DC.... [Re: starfire_xes]
#22190365 - 09/04/15 09:27 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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I'm sorry, but that's about the dumbest thing I've read on here recently. Why is the Conservative solution always to throw the baby out with the bathwater?
By the way, quid-pro-quo isn't the only way corruption is perpetuated in government. Are you saying get rid of taxes or get rid of government and have anarchy. If you're saying just get rid of taxes, then we would still have a government, but I guess they wouldn't receive a paycheck. They could still create bias regulations that favor one company over another, and then go work for that company once they decided they actually wanted a paycheck.
Whatever the case, the solution is not so simple. The system can be fixed. It is possible. Stop being so lazy minded.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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The Ecstatic
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Re: If you are against Crony Capitalism, here is why we need to stop the flow of tax money to DC.... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#22191883 - 09/05/15 09:20 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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That pretty much sums up the modern conservative agenda: lazy.
Immigration? Kick em out.
Terrorism? Nuke em all.
Public debt? Shut down the government.
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: If you are against Crony Capitalism, here is why we need to stop the flow of tax money to DC.... [Re: The Ecstatic]
#22192692 - 09/05/15 01:25 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said: That pretty much sums up the modern conservative agenda: lazy.
Immigration? Kick em out.
Terrorism? Nuke em all.
Public debt? Shut down the government.
It may be lazy, or it may honestly just be simple minded. That's the only explanation for this rally behind Donald Trump. It doesn't make any sense, honestly.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


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Re: If you are against Crony Capitalism, here is why we need to stop the flow of tax money to DC.... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#22192759 - 09/05/15 01:39 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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I think it's mostly classism.
When the economy crashed I was talking to some random guy on facebook about the minimum wage. After quite a bit of back and forth it came down too I got laid off, I get $15 an hour from my unemployment, I worked hard, why should the guy at McDonald's make $15 an hour.
In other words we tend to base our value as people on our wage. If I make X and guy I think is a piece of shit also makes X my life is worth less by proxy.
Or maybe it's just Stockholm syndrome.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: If you are against Crony Capitalism, here is why we need to stop the flow of tax money to DC.... [Re: paperbackwriter]
#22192794 - 09/05/15 01:46 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Lmao, Stockholm Syndrome sounds like a good assessment, when you have people so fervently defending corporate greed.
The thing I find funny is that I bet that guy wouldn't take a job at McDonalds for anything! I don't want to work at fucking McDonalds. When I was a kid I worked at Arby's and I fucking hated it. I'd much rather do factory work. People act like fast food work is equivalent to not having a job. Its not necessarily hard work, but you get treated like a piece of trash, and you make shitty wages.
People do base their value as people on their wages. Look at Donald Trump. I find it amazing that every interview or speech he gives he has to talk about his fortune at least once, and generally more than once. That's how we validate people in this sick and twisted society. That's how we get pussy.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


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Re: If you are against Crony Capitalism, here is why we need to stop the flow of tax money to DC.... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#22192909 - 09/05/15 02:07 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Last fast food place I worked at I found a large mountain dew all over the floor. People sat at that table, tracked it all over, didn't let us know about the mess. I saw it mid rush and had to wait for a couple to leave to clean it up.
The crew was alright and the work wasn't bad. But that mentality that fast food restaurants and workers aren't worthy of our common curtesy is really prevalent in the customer base.
Worse than tech support honestly and 9 out of 10 of those calls you're dealing with someone that's already pissed off or thinks you're in another country, or both.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: If you are against Crony Capitalism, here is why we need to stop the flow of tax money to DC.... [Re: paperbackwriter]
#22192986 - 09/05/15 02:29 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
paperbackwriter said: Last fast food place I worked at I found a large mountain dew all over the floor. People sat at that table, tracked it all over, didn't let us know about the mess. I saw it mid rush and had to wait for a couple to leave to clean it up.
The crew was alright and the work wasn't bad. But that mentality that fast food restaurants and workers aren't worthy of our common curtesy is really prevalent in the customer base.
Worse than tech support honestly and 9 out of 10 of those calls you're dealing with someone that's already pissed off or thinks you're in another country, or both.
My gf works at a hotel as the desk manager. You wouldn't fucking believe the shit people bitch at her about. I mean, I can't even fathom yelling at someone about the kind of shit they get in her face about. She comes home with a new story every day about some fucking crazy person. I think they complain so they'll get reduced rates.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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starfire_xes
I Am 'They'



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Re: If you are against Crony Capitalism, here is why we need to stop the flow of tax money to DC.... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#22194495 - 09/05/15 08:48 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Nobody is defending corporate greed. And no one is saying cut all taxes. I said, reign in taxes and limit spending to the point that they don;t have a big slush fund to pay to companies. It was Eisenhower who said 'beware the military-industrial complex' and he was right.
What am I saying? I'm saying as long as congress can spend on the credit card to their hearts content, and as long as they can spend on whatever they like, they are going to pay off their buddies with that great big slush fund of taxpayer money. They have been looting us for years and frankly i dont see how everyone isn't outraged.
take social security. DUh, its in a lock box.... yea, right..they looted that. They loot everything. YOu have to attack the problem from more than one direction
And they shit they spend on, fuck. THe B2 Bomber, they were supposed to be 100 million each...and they kept adding shit, they got more expensive until they were like 2 billion a pop, and they could on buy 20. A fucking waste--they call them the 'flying fort knox'
They have to get out of this mode of manipulating the tax code so someone gets free stuff. That's how they buy votes. Notice I didn't say cut welfare. The reason the fucking tax code is comlicated is because they keep making little carve outs for this group and that group--to buy votes. The whole tax structure is set up to keep politicians in power.
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: If you are against Crony Capitalism, here is why we need to stop the flow of tax money to DC.... [Re: starfire_xes]
#22194538 - 09/05/15 08:56 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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I can't argue with that. The tax code has to be revamped, and I think the majority of Americans see that point. It should be very simple, honestly.
I think publicly funded elections would be a good route also, but I get scared of corrupt people playing with this sort of thing. There are so many clever tricks that could be employed to rig a new system.
Corruption can be curbed if we approach the situation correctly on several fronts. We need to closely analyze all of the ways money influences policy, and dismantle those things.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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starfire_xes
I Am 'They'



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Re: If you are against Crony Capitalism, here is why we need to stop the flow of tax money to DC.... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#22194584 - 09/05/15 09:05 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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yea, and that's what Im trying to say, everyone attacks the corporations but the problem will exist until it is fixed on the government side.
you have to stop the government from from promising goodies to the corporations, and you have to stop the corporations from giving thinly veiled bribes to politicians.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: If you are against Crony Capitalism, here is why we need to stop the flow of tax money to DC.... [Re: starfire_xes]
#22194595 - 09/05/15 09:09 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Fixing things on the government side is definitely what needs to be done.
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Stonehenge
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Re: If you are against Crony Capitalism, here is why we need to stop the flow of tax money to DC.... [Re: starfire_xes]
#22194601 - 09/05/15 09:10 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
starfire_xes said: Nobody is defending corporate greed. And no one is saying cut all taxes. I said, reign in taxes and limit spending to the point that they don;t have a big slush fund to pay to companies. It was Eisenhower who said 'beware the military-industrial complex' and he was right.
What am I saying? I'm saying as long as congress can spend on the credit card to their hearts content, and as long as they can spend on whatever they like, they are going to pay off their buddies with that great big slush fund of taxpayer money. They have been looting us for years and frankly i dont see how everyone isn't outraged.
take social security. DUh, its in a lock box.... yea, right..they looted that. They loot everything. YOu have to attack the problem from more than one direction
And they shit they spend on, fuck. THe B2 Bomber, they were supposed to be 100 million each...and they kept adding shit, they got more expensive until they were like 2 billion a pop, and they could on buy 20. A fucking waste--they call them the 'flying fort knox'
They have to get out of this mode of manipulating the tax code so someone gets free stuff. That's how they buy votes. Notice I didn't say cut welfare. The reason the fucking tax code is comlicated is because they keep making little carve outs for this group and that group--to buy votes. The whole tax structure is set up to keep politicians in power.
That is something we need, reform and lots of it. Who is going to do any of that besides trump? Sanders will work in it but doesn't have the drive. He is too beholden to his liberal base and must give them not only a bone, but the best bones. He took the side of union picketers over management, just for example. He is not going to be the best businessman. He will be kind hearted, he will makes speeches against corruption and will sign things, that's fine.
jeb is more of the same crap we've been getting for so many years now. We had 8 years of an idiot and 8 years of a lying fool. They all worked for the big shots and against the average guy and the small businessman. Many people like walker but he sounds like another establishment man. What is he going to change? The recipients of govt largess but not the crooked system.
Sanders is too weak, feeble and beholden to the same interests that created obumble and the present mess. Back to trump. How can you bribe a guy who not only isn't interested in your 100 million $ but also knows he would be caught in a heartbeat. The left will spare no expense to harry and shadow the guy. That's good, I would want that.
Trump is the only one who:
1. Will go against the establishment and can energize the public behind him. Who else can do it? 2. Can't be bought for any reasonable sum and knows he will be caught if he does take a huge sum, or even a dime 3. Has answers to many tough problems and shows he is willing to listen to reason and to compromise. 4. The only one who really knows how to run a business. Obumble couldn't run a peanut cart.
His negatives:
1. Brash, loudmouth, typical new Yorker (apologies to nice new Yorkers) 2. Has pissed off many groups and may only win if sanders gets the other side.
Bottom line:
He is our only hope for major reform.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs




Registered: 12/07/13
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Re: If you are against Crony Capitalism, here is why we need to stop the flow of tax money to DC.... [Re: starfire_xes]
#22194788 - 09/05/15 09:56 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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starfire_xes said: yea, and that's what Im trying to say, everyone attacks the corporations but the problem will exist until it is fixed on the government side.
you have to stop the government from from promising goodies to the corporations, and you have to stop the corporations from giving thinly veiled bribes to politicians.
I agree. The problem can only be fixed from the governmental side. That's the only side we have power over.
I am not angry with corporations. I can bitch about them all day, but they are doing what they were created to do. I want change in the government. However, I think the true cure for this disease is worker cooperatives. Worker owned corporations. That in combination with a revamping of policy.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
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Re: If you are against Crony Capitalism, here is why we need to stop the flow of tax money to DC.... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#22194791 - 09/05/15 09:58 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:
starfire_xes said: yea, and that's what Im trying to say, everyone attacks the corporations but the problem will exist until it is fixed on the government side.
you have to stop the government from from promising goodies to the corporations, and you have to stop the corporations from giving thinly veiled bribes to politicians.
I agree. The problem can only be fixed from the governmental side. That's the only side we have power over.
I am not angry with corporations. I can bitch about them all day, but they are doing what they were created to do. I want change in the government. However, I think the true cure for this disease is worker cooperatives. Worker owned corporations. That in combination with a revamping of policy.
Socialism? Or do you mean like a required employee stock program?
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Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs




Registered: 12/07/13
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Re: If you are against Crony Capitalism, here is why we need to stop the flow of tax money to DC.... [Re: Stonehenge]
#22194794 - 09/05/15 09:59 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Stonehenge said: His negatives:
1. Brash, loudmouth, typical new Yorker (apologies to nice new Yorkers) 2. Has pissed off many groups and may only win if sanders gets the other side.
Bottom line:
He is our only hope for major reform.
You are fucking crazy, and those aren't his negatives. No president will alone create change. There must be a culture shift. I think Bernie may attempt to cultivate a culture shift, but he alone could never do terribly much.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: If you are against Crony Capitalism, here is why we need to stop the flow of tax money to DC.... [Re: The Ecstatic]
#22194802 - 09/05/15 10:01 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:
starfire_xes said: yea, and that's what Im trying to say, everyone attacks the corporations but the problem will exist until it is fixed on the government side.
you have to stop the government from from promising goodies to the corporations, and you have to stop the corporations from giving thinly veiled bribes to politicians.
I agree. The problem can only be fixed from the governmental side. That's the only side we have power over.
I am not angry with corporations. I can bitch about them all day, but they are doing what they were created to do. I want change in the government. However, I think the true cure for this disease is worker cooperatives. Worker owned corporations. That in combination with a revamping of policy.
Socialism? Or do you mean like a required employee stock program?
Yes, I guess a required employee stock program would be one route. There are also governmental policies that can be utilized to facilitate an increased incidence of worker cooperatives, like the way Italy handles their unemployment situation. I think Socialism should be implemented from the bottom up, not the top down. It requires a cultural shift.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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Re: If you are against Crony Capitalism, here is why we need to stop the flow of tax money to DC.... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#22196082 - 09/06/15 08:10 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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>You are fucking crazy
Same guy who always squeaks about ad hominems.
>Worker owned corporations
You are a commie
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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Re: If you are against Crony Capitalism, here is why we need to stop the flow of tax money to DC.... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#22196290 - 09/06/15 09:20 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Ad hominem is only a fallacy when used to dismiss someone else's argument. I can say your eyes are blue and you're wrong but I can't reasonably say you're wrong because your eyes are blue.
Quote:
Bigbadwooof said: You are fucking crazy, and those aren't his negatives.
No fallacy took place.
Here's Enlil using ad hominem in another thread.
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Enlil said: Chomsky is an idiot when he steps outside of his field. He should stick to linguistics and stay out of political theory.
Chomsky is an idiot when it comes to political theory therefore whatever he says must be wrong. He's attacking Chomsky rather than Chomsky's position (in this case that Obama would have been considered a centrist when Chomsky was younger).
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,509
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: If you are against Crony Capitalism, here is why we need to stop the flow of tax money to DC.... [Re: paperbackwriter]
#22196499 - 09/06/15 10:12 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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paperbackwriter said: Here's Enlil using ad hominem in another thread.
Quote:
Enlil said: Chomsky is an idiot when he steps outside of his field. He should stick to linguistics and stay out of political theory.
Chomsky is an idiot when it comes to political theory therefore whatever he says must be wrong. He's attacking Chomsky rather than Chomsky's position (in this case that Obama would have been considered a centrist when Chomsky was younger).
And this is the fallacy of the strawman argument. Paperbackwriter assigned an argument to me that I never made for the purpose of attacking that argument. Notice that he doesn't quote me saying that "whatever [Chomsky] says must be wrong". This is because I never made such an absurd claim. Instead, Paperbackwriter assumes that is what I meant because it is an easy argument to attack.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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Re: If you are against Crony Capitalism, here is why we need to stop the flow of tax money to DC.... [Re: paperbackwriter]
#22196622 - 09/06/15 10:42 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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>Ad hominem is only a fallacy when used to dismiss someone else's argument. I can say your eyes are blue and you're wrong but I can't reasonably say you're wrong because your eyes are blue.
Saying your eyes are blue is not an attack. Saying you are "fucking crazy" is. Can you see the difference? If not you are hopeless
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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Re: If you are against Crony Capitalism, here is why we need to stop the flow of tax money to DC.... [Re: Stonehenge]
#22196777 - 09/06/15 11:21 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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@Enlil I made an argument that, yes there are people that see Obama as a centrist, here's an example.
You commented that Chomsky is an idiot and that he should stay out of political theory (practically verbatim).
You're right, you didn't directly say "whatever Chomsky says must be wrong" but your post, when taken in context, did strongly imply "whatever Chomsky says about political theory must be wrong".
@Stoney Blue eyes was meant to be a neutral and intentionally ridiculous example so it wouldn't be emotionally charged when read.
Here's a few better examples.
A lawyer attacking a defendant’s character rather than addressing or questioning based on the case, e.g., in a case of theft pointing out the defendant’s level of poverty.
Generalizing views of a political party as an insulting argument to an individual who is a member of a different party, e.g., “Well, it’s pretty obvious that your political party doesn’t know how to be fiscally responsible, so I wouldn’t expect you to, either.”
I heard this one a lot growing up.
Stating that one’s age precludes him from being able to make an intelligent or meaningful argument, such as, “You are clearly just too young to understand.”
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,509
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: If you are against Crony Capitalism, here is why we need to stop the flow of tax money to DC.... [Re: paperbackwriter]
#22196797 - 09/06/15 11:28 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Actually, it's only implied if you think that your off-topic tangent about Chomsky has become the topic and that any response is about your new topic.
Whenever someone cites Chomsky as an authority on politics, I consider that the fallacy of appeal to false authority. That doesn't mean he's right or he's wrong on any given topic...it just means that I question the validity of using him as an authority on the topic. That is not an ad hominem.
Still, I didn't even do that in your quoted post. I just pointed out that the man is an idiot who should stick to what he's good at.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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Re: If you are against Crony Capitalism, here is why we need to stop the flow of tax money to DC.... [Re: Enlil]
#22196860 - 09/06/15 11:45 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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I'll give you the argument from false authority assumption. I do like Chomsky as a critic of U.S. politics but I wasn't intending to use him as though it was gospel. I just wanted to demonstrate that yes, some people do see Obama as a centrist.
On that note I apologize for misrepresenting your position Enlil. I wanted an example I could use that wouldn't throw up Stoney's defenses and who better to pick on than a mod 
And now I'll shut up on this since once again I'm arguing with Stoney about offtopic shit.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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Re: If you are against Crony Capitalism, here is why we need to stop the flow of tax money to DC.... [Re: paperbackwriter]
#22196992 - 09/06/15 12:18 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yeah, yeah, yeah, but the fact remains calling someone fucking crazy is a personal attack and an ad hominem which woof claims to be against but does it all the time. Not all of your wordage or attempts to deflect the subject change that fact.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs




Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,344
Last seen: 31 minutes, 47 seconds
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Re: If you are against Crony Capitalism, here is why we need to stop the flow of tax money to DC.... [Re: Enlil]
#22197683 - 09/06/15 03:21 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: Actually, it's only implied if you think that your off-topic tangent about Chomsky has become the topic and that any response is about your new topic.
Whenever someone cites Chomsky as an authority on politics, I consider that the fallacy of appeal to false authority. That doesn't mean he's right or he's wrong on any given topic...it just means that I question the validity of using him as an authority on the topic. That is not an ad hominem.
Still, I didn't even do that in your quoted post. I just pointed out that the man is an idiot who should stick to what he's good at.
Quoting Chomsky isn't an appeal to authority. He wasn't saying that it was true because Chomsky said it, he was offering Chomsky's opinion.
Also, one can only assume that ppw's tangent post was the topic of your post, because you carried on with the tangent. Was that just a coincidental random post about Chomsky?
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs




Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,344
Last seen: 31 minutes, 47 seconds
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Re: If you are against Crony Capitalism, here is why we need to stop the flow of tax money to DC.... [Re: Stonehenge]
#22197691 - 09/06/15 03:23 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stonehenge said: Yeah, yeah, yeah, but the fact remains calling someone fucking crazy is a personal attack and an ad hominem which woof claims to be against but does it all the time. Not all of your wordage or attempts to deflect the subject change that fact.
Simply calling someone crazy is not a fucking ad hominem.
An ad hominem would be if I said, 'you're crazy, and therefore wrong'.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,509
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: If you are against Crony Capitalism, here is why we need to stop the flow of tax money to DC.... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#22197798 - 09/06/15 03:38 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Bigbadwooof said:
Quoting Chomsky isn't an appeal to authority. He wasn't saying that it was true because Chomsky said it, he was offering Chomsky's opinion.
Yeah, he was saying it's true because Chomsky said it. Specifically, he was offering Chomsky's explanation, which is adopting Chomsky's position and ratifying his argument. I doubt that PBW would argue otherwise.
Also, appeal to authority isn't fallacious if the person actually is an authority. Appeal to false authority is. My position is that Chomsky's authority on political theory is unsubstantiated.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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Re: If you are against Crony Capitalism, here is why we need to stop the flow of tax money to DC.... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#22197800 - 09/06/15 03:38 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Wrong again, woof. So I can call you crazy anytime I want and its ok? You are you know. I just won't reply anymore.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs




Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,344
Last seen: 31 minutes, 47 seconds
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Re: If you are against Crony Capitalism, here is why we need to stop the flow of tax money to DC.... [Re: Stonehenge]
#22198143 - 09/06/15 04:33 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stonehenge said: Wrong again, woof. So I can call you crazy anytime I want and its ok? You are you know. I just won't reply anymore.
I may or may not be crazy, though I will say I chose my avatar carefully 
However, a fact is a fact, and a logical fallacy can only exist if you are attempting to prove a point.
For instance, you can call me crazy, but that is the point you are trying to make. If you support that statement with something unrelated like, 'because you're a jive ass cracka', the evidence of your claim is not the result of logical thinking processes (being a jive ass cracka and crazy are not mutually inclusive), and therefore a fallacious argument, though your claim may still be true.
I guess ppw probably had better examples, but I like saying 'jive ass cracka'.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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