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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: If you are against Crony Capitalism, here is why we need to stop the flow of tax money to DC.... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22191883 - 09/05/15 09:20 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

That pretty much sums up the modern conservative agenda: lazy.

Immigration? Kick em out.

Terrorism? Nuke em all.

Public debt? Shut down the government.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: If you are against Crony Capitalism, here is why we need to stop the flow of tax money to DC.... [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #22192692 - 09/05/15 01:25 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
That pretty much sums up the modern conservative agenda: lazy.

Immigration? Kick em out.

Terrorism? Nuke em all.

Public debt? Shut down the government.




It may be lazy, or it may honestly just be simple minded. That's the only explanation for this rally behind Donald Trump. It doesn't make any sense, honestly.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: If you are against Crony Capitalism, here is why we need to stop the flow of tax money to DC.... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22192759 - 09/05/15 01:39 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

I think it's mostly classism.

When the economy crashed I was talking to some random guy on facebook about the minimum wage.  After quite a bit of back and forth it came down too I got laid off, I get $15 an hour from my unemployment, I worked hard, why should the guy at McDonald's make $15 an hour.

In other words we tend to base our value as people on our wage.  If I make X and guy I think is a piece of shit also makes X my life is worth less by proxy.

Or maybe it's just Stockholm syndrome.  :shrug:


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: If you are against Crony Capitalism, here is why we need to stop the flow of tax money to DC.... [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22192794 - 09/05/15 01:46 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Lmao, Stockholm Syndrome sounds like a good assessment, when you have people so fervently defending corporate greed.

The thing I find funny is that I bet that guy wouldn't take a job at McDonalds for anything! I don't want to work at fucking McDonalds. When I was a kid I worked at Arby's and I fucking hated it. I'd much rather do factory work. People act like fast food work is equivalent to not having a job. Its not necessarily hard work, but you get treated like a piece of trash, and you make shitty wages.

People do base their value as people on their wages. Look at Donald Trump. I find it amazing that every interview or speech he gives he has to talk about his fortune at least once, and generally more than once. That's how we validate people in this sick and twisted society. That's how we get pussy.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: If you are against Crony Capitalism, here is why we need to stop the flow of tax money to DC.... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22192909 - 09/05/15 02:07 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Last fast food place I worked at I found a large mountain dew all over the floor.  People sat at that table, tracked it all over, didn't let us know about the mess.  I saw it mid rush and had to wait for a couple to leave to clean it up.

The crew was alright and the work wasn't bad. But that mentality that fast food restaurants and workers aren't worthy of our common curtesy is really prevalent in the customer base.

Worse than tech support honestly and 9 out of 10 of those calls you're dealing with someone that's already pissed off or thinks you're in another country, or both.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: If you are against Crony Capitalism, here is why we need to stop the flow of tax money to DC.... [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22192986 - 09/05/15 02:29 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Last fast food place I worked at I found a large mountain dew all over the floor.  People sat at that table, tracked it all over, didn't let us know about the mess.  I saw it mid rush and had to wait for a couple to leave to clean it up.

The crew was alright and the work wasn't bad. But that mentality that fast food restaurants and workers aren't worthy of our common curtesy is really prevalent in the customer base.

Worse than tech support honestly and 9 out of 10 of those calls you're dealing with someone that's already pissed off or thinks you're in another country, or both.




My gf works at a hotel as the desk manager. You wouldn't fucking believe the shit people bitch at her about. I mean, I can't even fathom yelling at someone about the kind of shit they get in her face about. She comes home with a new story every day about some fucking crazy person. I think they complain so they'll get reduced rates.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: If you are against Crony Capitalism, here is why we need to stop the flow of tax money to DC.... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22194495 - 09/05/15 08:48 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Nobody is defending corporate greed.  And no one is saying cut all taxes.  I said, reign in taxes and limit spending to the point that they don;t have a big slush fund to pay to companies.  It was Eisenhower who said 'beware the military-industrial complex' and he was right.

What am I saying?  I'm saying as long as congress can spend on the credit card to their hearts content, and as long as they can spend on whatever they like, they are going to pay off their buddies with that great big slush fund of taxpayer money.  They have been looting us for years and frankly i dont see how everyone isn't outraged.

take social security.  DUh, its in a lock box.... :tard:  yea, right..they looted that.  They loot everything.  YOu have to attack the problem from more than one direction 

And they shit they spend on, fuck.  THe B2 Bomber, they were supposed to be 100 million each...and they kept adding shit, they got more expensive until they were like 2 billion a pop, and they could on buy 20.  A fucking waste--they call them the 'flying fort knox'

They have to get out of this mode of manipulating the tax code so someone gets free stuff.  That's how they buy votes.  Notice I didn't say cut welfare.  The reason the fucking tax code is comlicated is because they keep making little carve outs for this group and that group--to buy votes.  The whole tax structure is set up to keep politicians in power.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: If you are against Crony Capitalism, here is why we need to stop the flow of tax money to DC.... [Re: starfire_xes]
    #22194538 - 09/05/15 08:56 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

I can't argue with that. The tax code has to be revamped, and I think the majority of Americans see that point. It should be very simple, honestly.

I think publicly funded elections would be a good route also, but I get scared of corrupt people playing with this sort of thing. There are so many clever tricks that could be employed to rig a new system.

Corruption can be curbed if we approach the situation correctly on several fronts. We need to closely analyze all of the ways money influences policy, and dismantle those things.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: If you are against Crony Capitalism, here is why we need to stop the flow of tax money to DC.... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22194584 - 09/05/15 09:05 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

yea, and that's what Im trying to say, everyone attacks the corporations but the problem will exist until it is fixed on the government side.

you have to stop the government from from promising goodies to the corporations, and you have to stop the corporations from giving thinly veiled bribes to politicians.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Registered: 11/11/09
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Re: If you are against Crony Capitalism, here is why we need to stop the flow of tax money to DC.... [Re: starfire_xes]
    #22194595 - 09/05/15 09:09 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Fixing things on the government side is definitely what needs to be done.


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: If you are against Crony Capitalism, here is why we need to stop the flow of tax money to DC.... [Re: starfire_xes]
    #22194601 - 09/05/15 09:10 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
Nobody is defending corporate greed.  And no one is saying cut all taxes.  I said, reign in taxes and limit spending to the point that they don;t have a big slush fund to pay to companies.  It was Eisenhower who said 'beware the military-industrial complex' and he was right.

What am I saying?  I'm saying as long as congress can spend on the credit card to their hearts content, and as long as they can spend on whatever they like, they are going to pay off their buddies with that great big slush fund of taxpayer money.  They have been looting us for years and frankly i dont see how everyone isn't outraged.

take social security.  DUh, its in a lock box.... :tard:  yea, right..they looted that.  They loot everything.  YOu have to attack the problem from more than one direction 

And they shit they spend on, fuck.  THe B2 Bomber, they were supposed to be 100 million each...and they kept adding shit, they got more expensive until they were like 2 billion a pop, and they could on buy 20.  A fucking waste--they call them the 'flying fort knox'

They have to get out of this mode of manipulating the tax code so someone gets free stuff.  That's how they buy votes.  Notice I didn't say cut welfare.  The reason the fucking tax code is comlicated is because they keep making little carve outs for this group and that group--to buy votes.  The whole tax structure is set up to keep politicians in power.




That is something we need, reform and lots of it. Who is going to do any of that besides trump? Sanders will work in it but doesn't have the drive. He is too beholden to his liberal base and must give them not only a bone, but the best bones. He took the side of union picketers over management, just for example. He is not going to be the best businessman. He will be kind hearted, he will makes speeches against corruption and will sign things, that's fine.

jeb is more of the same crap we've been getting for so many years now. We had 8 years of an idiot and 8 years of a lying fool. They all worked for the big shots and against the average guy and the small businessman. Many people like walker but he sounds like another establishment man. What is he going to change? The recipients of govt largess but not the crooked system.

Sanders is too weak, feeble and beholden to the same interests that created obumble and the present mess. Back to trump. How can you bribe a guy who not only isn't interested in your 100 million $ but also knows he would be caught in a heartbeat. The left will spare no expense to harry and shadow the guy. That's good, I would want that.

Trump is the only one who:

1. Will go against the establishment and can energize the public behind him. Who else can do it?
2. Can't be bought for any reasonable sum and knows he will be caught if he does take a huge sum, or even a dime
3. Has answers to many tough problems and shows he is willing to listen to reason and to compromise.
4. The only one who really knows how to run a business. Obumble couldn't run a peanut cart.

His negatives:

1. Brash, loudmouth, typical new Yorker (apologies to nice new Yorkers)
2. Has pissed off many groups and may only win if sanders gets the other side.

Bottom line:

He is our only hope for major reform.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: If you are against Crony Capitalism, here is why we need to stop the flow of tax money to DC.... [Re: starfire_xes]
    #22194788 - 09/05/15 09:56 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
yea, and that's what Im trying to say, everyone attacks the corporations but the problem will exist until it is fixed on the government side.

you have to stop the government from from promising goodies to the corporations, and you have to stop the corporations from giving thinly veiled bribes to politicians.




I agree. The problem can only be fixed from the governmental side. That's the only side we have power over.

I am not angry with corporations. I can bitch about them all day, but they are doing what they were created to do. I want change in the government. However, I think the true cure for this disease is worker cooperatives. Worker owned corporations. That in combination with a revamping of policy.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: If you are against Crony Capitalism, here is why we need to stop the flow of tax money to DC.... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22194791 - 09/05/15 09:58 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

starfire_xes said:
yea, and that's what Im trying to say, everyone attacks the corporations but the problem will exist until it is fixed on the government side.

you have to stop the government from from promising goodies to the corporations, and you have to stop the corporations from giving thinly veiled bribes to politicians.




I agree. The problem can only be fixed from the governmental side. That's the only side we have power over.

I am not angry with corporations. I can bitch about them all day, but they are doing what they were created to do. I want change in the government. However, I think the true cure for this disease is worker cooperatives. Worker owned corporations. That in combination with a revamping of policy.




Socialism? Or do you mean like a required employee stock program?


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: If you are against Crony Capitalism, here is why we need to stop the flow of tax money to DC.... [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22194794 - 09/05/15 09:59 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
His negatives:

1. Brash, loudmouth, typical new Yorker (apologies to nice new Yorkers)
2. Has pissed off many groups and may only win if sanders gets the other side.

Bottom line:

He is our only hope for major reform.




You are fucking crazy, and those aren't his negatives. No president will alone create change. There must be a culture shift. I think Bernie may attempt to cultivate a culture shift, but he alone could never do terribly much.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: If you are against Crony Capitalism, here is why we need to stop the flow of tax money to DC.... [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #22194802 - 09/05/15 10:01 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

starfire_xes said:
yea, and that's what Im trying to say, everyone attacks the corporations but the problem will exist until it is fixed on the government side.

you have to stop the government from from promising goodies to the corporations, and you have to stop the corporations from giving thinly veiled bribes to politicians.




I agree. The problem can only be fixed from the governmental side. That's the only side we have power over.

I am not angry with corporations. I can bitch about them all day, but they are doing what they were created to do. I want change in the government. However, I think the true cure for this disease is worker cooperatives. Worker owned corporations. That in combination with a revamping of policy.




Socialism? Or do you mean like a required employee stock program?




Yes, I guess a required employee stock program would be one route. There are also governmental policies that can be utilized to facilitate an increased incidence of worker cooperatives, like the way Italy handles their unemployment situation. I think Socialism should be implemented from the bottom up, not the top down. It requires a cultural shift.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: If you are against Crony Capitalism, here is why we need to stop the flow of tax money to DC.... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22196082 - 09/06/15 08:10 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

>You are fucking crazy

Same guy who always squeaks about ad hominems.

>Worker owned corporations

You are a commie


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: If you are against Crony Capitalism, here is why we need to stop the flow of tax money to DC.... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22196290 - 09/06/15 09:20 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Ad hominem is only a fallacy when used to dismiss someone else's argument.  I can say your eyes are blue and you're wrong but I can't reasonably say you're wrong because your eyes are blue.

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
You are fucking crazy, and those aren't his negatives.




No fallacy took place.

Here's Enlil using ad hominem in another thread.

Quote:

Enlil said:
Chomsky is an idiot when he steps outside of his field.  He should stick to linguistics and stay out of political theory.




Chomsky is an idiot when it comes to political theory therefore whatever he says must be wrong.  He's attacking Chomsky rather than Chomsky's position (in this case that Obama would have been considered a centrist when Chomsky was younger).


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: If you are against Crony Capitalism, here is why we need to stop the flow of tax money to DC.... [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22196499 - 09/06/15 10:12 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Here's Enlil using ad hominem in another thread.

Quote:

Enlil said:
Chomsky is an idiot when he steps outside of his field.  He should stick to linguistics and stay out of political theory.




Chomsky is an idiot when it comes to political theory therefore whatever he says must be wrong.  He's attacking Chomsky rather than Chomsky's position (in this case that Obama would have been considered a centrist when Chomsky was younger).



And this is the fallacy of the strawman argument.  Paperbackwriter assigned an argument to me that I never made for the purpose of attacking that argument.  Notice that he doesn't quote me saying that "whatever [Chomsky] says must be wrong".  This is because I never made such an absurd claim.  Instead, Paperbackwriter assumes that is what I meant because it is an easy argument to attack.


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: If you are against Crony Capitalism, here is why we need to stop the flow of tax money to DC.... [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22196622 - 09/06/15 10:42 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

>Ad hominem is only a fallacy when used to dismiss someone else's argument.  I can say your eyes are blue and you're wrong but I can't reasonably say you're wrong because your eyes are blue.

Saying your eyes are blue is not an attack. Saying you are "fucking crazy" is. Can you see the difference? If not you are hopeless


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: If you are against Crony Capitalism, here is why we need to stop the flow of tax money to DC.... [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22196777 - 09/06/15 11:21 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

@Enlil
I made an argument that, yes there are people that see Obama as a centrist, here's an example.

You commented that Chomsky is an idiot and that he should stay out of political theory (practically verbatim).

You're right, you didn't directly say "whatever Chomsky says must be wrong" but your post, when taken in context, did strongly imply "whatever Chomsky says about political theory must be wrong".

@Stoney
Blue eyes was meant to be a neutral and intentionally ridiculous example so it wouldn't be emotionally charged when read.

Here's a few better examples.

A lawyer attacking a defendant’s character rather than addressing or questioning based on the case, e.g., in a case of theft pointing out the defendant’s level of poverty.

Generalizing views of a political party as an insulting argument to an individual who is a member of a different party, e.g., “Well, it’s pretty obvious that your political party doesn’t know how to be fiscally responsible, so I wouldn’t expect you to, either.”

I heard this one a lot growing up.

Stating that one’s age precludes him from being able to make an intelligent or meaningful argument, such as, “You are clearly just too young to understand.”


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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