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OfflineSilverwolf
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Re: ""Silver." A Wolf's Story."The shamanic use of a.muscaria. [Re: mjshroomer]
    #2234444 - 01/11/04 08:54 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Ah, I wondered about the spelling, p.tampanensis -makes sense-, as I've only ever seen it once on a spore site (they are available apparently).On what evidence do you base your assertion that the Seminole made use of neither species MJ ?Does a.muscaria, or a variant, grow in Florida?


--------------------
"Odrade read the word silently and then aloud.
"Arafel."
She knew this word.Reverend Mothers of the tyrants time had impressed it into the Bene Gesserit consciousness,tracing it's roots to the most ancient sources.
"Arafel:the cloud darkness at the end of the universe.""


Edited by Lonewolf (01/11/04 08:57 AM)


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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: ""Silver." A Wolf's Story."The shamanic use of a.muscaria. [Re: Silverwolf]
    #2234458 - 01/11/04 09:14 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Pollock, Peele, Lincoff, LaBarre, Borhegynad even Schultes have all studied medicinal plants of the seminoles. They have never used Copeladnida or P. cubensis shrooms in their cultures. And again, their were none in Florida until after the arrival of the Spanish who brought the first cattle here from Africa and Asia.

And yes, Amanita muscaria var. formosa has been re[ported in the literature from Florida.


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OfflineSilverwolf
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Re: ""Silver." A Wolf's Story."The shamanic use of a.muscaria. [Re: Silverwolf]
    #2234486 - 01/11/04 09:49 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

"The Viper of Kernunnos"
Tuning into the vibration of the tree from which the fungi receives it's fuel should give initial auric protection from the dangers inherent when accessing the world of the amanita ally.
A quote from Melody's book "Love is in the Earth" on the preparation of crystal and "gem" remedies may be instructive here.."In order to prepare the energies for the assimilation into an elixir,conscious programming is recommended to facilitate enhanced transfer of the special energies desired.
Without conscious programming, all of the energies are transmitted,  and no specific direction for these energies is delineated (bold mine .ed); this method is conducive to activation of "spring tonics" and for general use."
(N.B "Wolf note" I have edited this post because whilst the quote from Melody would appear to be in some ways apposite a shift of perspective ( or dimension ?) is probably required to appreciate it's value. To equate the vibrations accessed by flower and gem remedies directly with those "beyond the veil" of the amanita's aura is probably erroneous, in so far as it is misleading. For whilst there are similarities the way that these two "healing perspectives" - all shamanism is healing - differ is not fully understood as yet , at least not by this student!)
Notions of experiencing the individual relationships of amanita troops mycorrhizal to specific tree species would seem to apply most "regularly" to the growing and picking of cultivated, "farmed", specimins as part of a complete shamanic experience.
This, ofcourse, is not to say that the world of the amanita ally cannot accessed by a general use of the fungi found on your foray. I have been studying amanitas over a twenty year period, on and off, they are to the mycologist as say The Great White Shark is to the marine biologist awesome, powerful and perhaps a little unforgiving for the ill prepared (understatement mine .ed).Once you've read this I hope you will be better prepared than I was! So before we go on to the actual preparation of foraged fungi lets look at how "we" should be prepared physically.
Nowadays before I avail myself of some dried amanita I can gauge my state of preparedness easily because once my intent has reached my endocrine sytem I can feel my kidney strength, this may however be because I have (as a result of serious surgery and unsupervised fungi use) suffered kidney damage in the past and have become sensitised to their state of health, suffice to say though that good kidney, liver and heart function are essential before you access the power of the fungi.Certain disorders in these organs may be amenable to treatment via amanita ingestion  however unless their application is to be performed by an experienced shaman, or unless you have considerable experience yourself, I wouldn't recommend it! The shaman will treat an illness by accessing the spirit realm, it has it's own rules, it is these we learn when we begin to access the power of "The Sacred Mushroom". :thumbup:


Edited by Silverwolf (09/27/06 11:19 AM)


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OfflineSilverwolf
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Re: ""Silver." A Wolf's Story."The shamanic use of a.muscaria. [Re: Silverwolf]
    #2234498 - 01/11/04 10:02 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I see tampanensis , apart from it's rarity, is an import in any case!However the var.formosa is it a rare visitor or firmly indigenous to the region in large enough numbers to force us to speculate why the seminole did not avail themselves of it? Also MJ how different from that of a.muscaria are the chemical profiles for the psychoactive consituents of var.formosa?


--------------------
"Odrade read the word silently and then aloud.
"Arafel."
She knew this word.Reverend Mothers of the tyrants time had impressed it into the Bene Gesserit consciousness,tracing it's roots to the most ancient sources.
"Arafel:the cloud darkness at the end of the universe.""


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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: ""Silver." A Wolf's Story."The shamanic use of a.muscaria. [Re: Silverwolf]
    #2234625 - 01/11/04 12:19 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

The same chemicals I posted in this forum for Amanita can be found in most variations of the amanitas of the orange and red cap types.

The name variation is used because the caps colors are slightly different than the crimson red caps.

The pantherina contains the largerst amouncts of muscimol and ibotenic acid.

Ott once extracted three grams of ibotenic acid from over 120 pounds of Amanita muscaria and Amanita pantherina. Took one year for the extraction of those three grams which were sold to research labs for approx $5,000 dollars a gram each. Not worth the time says Ott to me in a Pers. Comm. in 1986. That makes ibotenic acid one of the most expensive drugs at five thousand a gram and that was over 15-years ago.

Mjshroomer

And p. tampanensis, originally collected by Pollock, Guzm?n and friends, in the early 1970s from Tampanensis, Florida, has not been found in Florida since.

However, recently a collection of two or three shrooms was reported in the literature in 1996 by Guzman who identified it from Mississippi.

Additionally, P. mamilata was only found once in Florida in the early 1920s or 1930s by Murril. IT has not been found again in the US but a small collection was found and reported from Jamaica in 1996 by Guzm?n.

mj


Edited by mjshroomer (01/11/04 12:23 PM)


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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: ""Silver." A Wolf's Story."The shamanic use of a.muscaria. [Re: mjshroomer]
    #2235188 - 01/11/04 07:30 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

So here's an amanita related question. Has anyone bought any from a website, any info on that? Just curious. I'd rather find them myself, but I've been so unsuccessful.. so very unsuccessful.. and this fall I'll be back down in alabama, and I don't know of anywhere near where I'll be living that I could even try to look. Up here I've got a spot I think should be great, it's a large pine thicket on the top of a mountain.. but I won't be around after july/august. So, is it even worth it to cheat and buy them, or do you just wind up cheating yourself?

Also on the Florida note, might it be possible that mushrooms that are no longer found there might have been at one point, and that changes in the environment of the state have driven them out? Or perhaps even competition from non-native species, possibly those introduced by the Spanish even?


--------------------
i finally got around to making a sig
revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might
grar.


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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: ""Silver." A Wolf's Story."The shamanic use of a.muscaria. [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #2236171 - 01/12/04 03:30 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

No there have always been Amanitas in Florida after the Spanish arrived. Maybe even there before.

Mycology assumes that they were introduced tot he USA but I believe they are a northern species and that is because they are found int he northern hemisphere all around the world including China and Russia. Although some are introduced species of course.

mj


Edited by mjshroomer (01/12/04 03:32 AM)


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OfflineSilverwolf
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Re: ""Silver." A Wolf's Story."The shamanic use of a.muscaria. [Re: mjshroomer]
    #2236559 - 01/12/04 08:50 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

As some of you may know I have this CRAZY idea of introducing spores (or possibly mycelium) to suitable "partner" tree species, especially in areas which have previously suffered from poor harvest.
.."He carries with him his accumulated store of supernal wisdom -contained in his satchel, which is sometimes embroidered with an eye, signifying spiritual knowledge." From Chapter 7, "The Hanged One", of James Vogh's , aka John Sladek's, book "The Thirteenth Zodiac. The Sign of Arachne."


--------------------
"Odrade read the word silently and then aloud.
"Arafel."
She knew this word.Reverend Mothers of the tyrants time had impressed it into the Bene Gesserit consciousness,tracing it's roots to the most ancient sources.
"Arafel:the cloud darkness at the end of the universe.""


Edited by Silverwolf (05/30/04 08:18 PM)


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OfflineSilverwolf
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Re: ""Silver." A Wolf's Story."The shamanic use of a.muscaria. [Re: Silverwolf]
    #2236573 - 01/12/04 09:15 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)


(note:MJ's info on the strength of the a.pantherina does suggest that the literature I read some 10 years ago, which suggested that the pantherina was especially highly prized by Siberian (?) shaman may have indeed been correct (sorry no reference).Also as a practitioner of natural medicine the notion of isolating "active compounds"  in order to ingest a "truer or purer" substance is always very worrying.The necessary "permissions" are seldom gained, look what they've done to marijuana!!)

(Does anyone have a list of the complete range of species with which the various active amanita species are mycorrhizal?)
Clearly the manifestation of various fungi as partners with specific tree species will occur "as needed" for the student of shamanism, or shaman.
The real clue to the nature of the fungi's vibration, as opposed to that of the tree species own flower , can probably be best determined by ascertaining whether or not there are any significant differences between the sugars provided to the fungi by the different tree species.This ofcourse, again, may become especially important should we intend, and indeed attempt, to propogate the fungi; however the issue of the tree's sugars is "gross" compared to the "subtle" one of it's aura.      :laugh:


Edited by Lonewolf (01/16/04 09:29 AM)


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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: ""Silver." A Wolf's Story."The shamanic use of a.muscaria. [Re: Silverwolf]
    #2236625 - 01/12/04 10:25 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

(note:MJ's info on the strength of the a.pantherina does suggest that the literature I read some 10 years ago, which suggested that the pantherina was especially highly prized by Siberian (?) shaman may have indeed been correct (sorry no reference).




Unless this was in a work of fiction where you read or heard that about the Amanita, it is not in the published literature, at least the scientific and/or mycological literature at all. I now since I wrote the bibliography of entheogenic fungi which lists the almost 300 references to the Amanita muscaria (SOMA) complex. And the Soma references will soon appear int he fourth iswue of the journal Entheos, whose site, unfortunatley is currently down for reconstruction.

mj

This also includes every reference in the Russian literature to the discovery and historical documentation of the very shamans in that region of the world who use the Amanita muscaira.



No one has ever been able to grow any Amanita species away from their natural habitat. And again,. no siberian or others who use amanita muscaria ever used Amanita pantherina.

And their main sybiosis and mychorhizial connections are Birch and Pine, and a few minopr trees.

mj

And I am referring top expert cultivators who for years have tried.

In Oregon there is a deserted naval Hopspital where up to a few hundred pounds of A. muscaria and var. formosa grow each fall.

mj

Here is a photo of some Amanita muscaria taken by the Hawkseye when he visited Seattle a few years back,.





And here is an image by me of a Psilocybe cyanescens growing right in front of an Amanita muscaria in a large park in Seattle, Washington.



And some Amanita muscaria drying along with some P. cyanescens.



mjshroomer


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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: ""Silver." A Wolf's Story."The shamanic use of a.muscaria. [Re: mjshroomer]
    #2236688 - 01/12/04 11:06 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Would there be any way for say.. me.. to get a copy of Entheos? Or is it uber-limited printing with no copy online?

All I'm running on is the few things I've read about them and the experiences of a few of my friends. None of which have been bad, of the 5 people I know that have eaten them.. so I'm really stumped as to how they've gained a reputation as a horrifying experience. In fact all 5 people I know have said it was an amazing trip, different than anything else but very enjoyable..


--------------------
i finally got around to making a sig
revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might
grar.


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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: ""Silver." A Wolf's Story."The shamanic use of a.muscaria. [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #2236943 - 01/12/04 01:33 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

http://www.entheomedia.com is currently down for the moment.

I would wait till they are back on line. There may still be some back issues available.

If you know how to contact Jon Hanna of the entheogenic review, he may be able to give you an email for Mark Hofmann, editor of Entheos.

As for yor five friends eating them, there are hundreds of reported bad trips in the literrature and also at many hospitals and if you were to contact the Poison Control Center in Atlanta, GA., I am sure you could find a lot more bad experiences form them. ITf theyr were all that great there would be hundreds of good trip reports about them along with the psilocybe mushroom trip reoprts.

mj


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OfflineSilverwolf
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"Dimensional Issues" [Re: mjshroomer]
    #2237479 - 01/12/04 05:52 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

It was no work of fiction MJ. The work was the first place that I learned of the storage of the amanitas in the permafrost, also ,as we shall see later, the work mentioned the bio-chemical preference of sun-drying for the "conversion of some of the poisons" (a paraphrase).My own best experiences -I notice you are drying the caps whilst in contact with a surface, I use another method, as you will discover-, have been in the light of the illumination provided by this particular piece of literature (some things may be hidden for a reason!). The preferability of the "sun-dry" method I have yet to verify (also see further posts on the preparation of the fungi).
Those are very beautiful specimins by the way, and what a large troop! We have ,as I've said on other threads, had something like that here in Southampton. As for "away from their natural habitat" (sorry to paraphrase you), if you mean without a partner tree I'm not surprised it didn't work (my "wandering merchant " idea).No I have no intention of removing them from their natural habitat but rather creating one in the form of a productive arboretum.I have difficulty in believing that THIS cannnot be done. :devil:


Edited by Lonewolf (01/12/04 06:00 PM)


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OfflineSilverwolf
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Re: "Dimensional Issues" [Re: Silverwolf]
    #2237524 - 01/12/04 06:24 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

"The Song Remains the Same"
Some of you may know, or may have seen, that the Led Zeppelin live film/"fantasy" "The Song Remains the Same" contains a filmic narrative which includes the consumption of a raw a.muscaria, symbiote with either a Beech or Oak -check and let me know-, by frontman Robert Plant. Following in the illustrious rock gods footsteps I did this , the "trip" was something like what I supposed mescaline would be like, and still do. However I continued to consume them raw for another year or two (on and off obviously), once experiencing a very unusual "trip" whilst "wearing" a fresh cap on my forehead (to the strains of "Agents of Fortune" by Blue Oyster Cult no less). Now you might say I was irresponsible, I certainly didn't know what I was doing, however there was little guidance for the sincere seeker at the time. this lack of "watching" has nearly killed me more than once! So I hope that we can all lay aside any personal (political,social, sexual, religious ,racial etc. etc.) differences whilst we look for "The Truth" out there! I'd hate what happened to me to happen to anyone else, to an extent we are all students here. :sun:


--------------------
"Odrade read the word silently and then aloud.
"Arafel."
She knew this word.Reverend Mothers of the tyrants time had impressed it into the Bene Gesserit consciousness,tracing it's roots to the most ancient sources.
"Arafel:the cloud darkness at the end of the universe.""


Edited by Silverwolf (10/10/06 03:06 PM)


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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: ""Silver." A Wolf's Story."The shamanic use of a.muscaria. [Re: mjshroomer]
    #2238039 - 01/12/04 11:58 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I do know of the hundreds of bad experiences people have reported from amanitas, but honestly I think a lot of that might be attributed to their reputation. We hear of bad acid trips all the time, and usually find something to pin it on -- bad atmosphere, frame of mind, too much for an unprepared noobie. Bad mushroom trip, we find the same reasons. Bad amanita trip, and from what I've seen it's generally attributed to the amanita itself.. I think the reputation they've gained may cause their reputation to grow. Ie, someone eats one hoping for a good time, but the whole time they're preparing themselves for a fight through hell.
And indeed if they were used by the berserkers, that's so totally unlike an acid or psilocybe trip that I'm sure it would scare most people, especially someone that had no idea that their trip might take a turn into something that frentically powerful. One of my friends who has eaten them was a 110lb redheaded girl, and it certainly appeared to me that she was quite ready to leap up and start ripping arms off. Not that she would, but that she could at a moment's notice. The only reason I can figure that she had a fun time was that, well, she's quite a rageful lil ball of hate sometimes, hehe, and enjoys that side of herself really as much as any other. My uninformed interpretation at least. Feel free to berate my opinions. I'm just trying to make sense of things from what I see, hear, and read, and I'm just very distrustful of things that I'm told unless they completely fit with all the other pieces.. it's a process of finding enough pieces that you can afford to throw nearly all of them out, and still have enough left that fit together that you can see the whole picture clearly and without any messy opinions fogging your view.


--------------------
i finally got around to making a sig
revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might
grar.


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Offlineneuro
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Re: ""Silver." A Wolf's Story."The shamanic use of a.muscaria. [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #2238615 - 01/13/04 10:19 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

The amanita's compounds are classed as cholinergics. Cholinergics also house warfare chemicals like nerve gasses and such.

Cholinergic ingestion is risky when expecting good or bad experiences from them. Generally they're bad, I don't think attributions like acid are really the main factor with this particular situation.


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OfflineSilverwolf
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Re: ""Silver." A Wolf's Story."The shamanic use of a.muscaria. [Re: neuro]
    #2239932 - 01/13/04 07:35 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Believe it or not guys I was going to get to this subject (eventually -sigh- ed.), giggle, sorry where was I?...tum ti tum..Ah yes VIOLENCE! Remember the Berserker's didn't appear until man learned to forge swords like the Viking broadsword, I've been to a Viking/Saxon (oh there's nothing like "Dat Old Religion") battlefield and met a dragon here in Southern England, I'll get to -some- of that too! Least ways guys if the "warthog" pilots who shot up British ground troops in both "'Ornery Goddam" (Gulf) Conflicts -spits out butt end of imaginary "stovey" - had been on A's (amanitas) instead of speed "the guys" might still be alive. Of course that's nothing to all the depleted uranium that the U.S and U.K have spewed and defecated across the planet (speaks to "environmental impact" moderators please excuse)!
"I love the smell of napalm in the morning!"


--------------------
"Odrade read the word silently and then aloud.
"Arafel."
She knew this word.Reverend Mothers of the tyrants time had impressed it into the Bene Gesserit consciousness,tracing it's roots to the most ancient sources.
"Arafel:the cloud darkness at the end of the universe.""


Edited by Silverwolf (09/27/06 06:05 AM)


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OfflineSilverwolf
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Re: "Dimensional Issues" [Re: Silverwolf]
    #2239977 - 01/13/04 07:54 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

"Something that goes unnamed is usually an object of deep worship or great fear" Giles "No Place Like Home" Season 5 "Buffy the Vampire Slayer".

We've spoken to the "how" and "why" (and perhaps too much to the "why" however bear with me communication with "the shining ones" -devas- is a sacred component of the shamanic experience) lets look at "when".
On my other major thread "British Indigenous" I spent a significant amount of time (laying the groundwork for some might say) on a discussion of the preferability of trees in their most fullsome leaf for the production of the most potent amanitas, although clearly this does not apply to the pine which is not deciduous. My suspicions were somewhat bourne out when I read in the Shroomery's FAQ that consistently the most potent a.muscaria specimins have been reported "early season",that is August/September. I would be very interested to discover whether this only applied to specimins foraged from deciduous tree partnerships (not half! ed.). I foraged several beautiful large orange caps last season, but the whole 100 dry grammes from the season were exclusively birch symbiotes. However I suspect that partnerships with the larger desciduous trees tend to occur "early season" (the birch has a faster metabolism does it not guys? It's much shorter lived and faster growing that the oak or the beech) - don't let MJ fool you I suspect oak partnerships are a little more common than you would infer from his posts -somewhere on the site there is a report from either a Northern North American or Canadian concerning oak foraged specimins this last season! So "Sugar production is dependent on both the presence of significant foliage and/or the tree's metabolic rate." Discuss: :cool:


Edited by Silverwolf (09/27/06 06:09 AM)


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OfflineSilverwolf
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Re: "The Viper of Kernunnos" *DELETED* [Re: Silverwolf]
    #2245667 - 01/16/04 09:09 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Post deleted by Silverwolf

Reason for deletion: Irrelevant



--------------------
"Odrade read the word silently and then aloud.
"Arafel."
She knew this word.Reverend Mothers of the tyrants time had impressed it into the Bene Gesserit consciousness,tracing it's roots to the most ancient sources.
"Arafel:the cloud darkness at the end of the universe.""


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OfflineSilverwolf
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Re: "The Viper of Kernunnos" [Re: Silverwolf]
    #2248935 - 01/17/04 06:57 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

In that spirit ( see above ) I availed myself of just two (one half) cap segments - lovely pure amanitas - two nights ago and I am still feeling the effects now . This is - possibly ed. - the smoothest ride I've ever had on the big "A", no kidney dysfunction and a nice "clean feed", as they say in radio land. This cannot be other than because - despite our differences - this forum is giving me the opportunity to explore the sacred mushrooms potential. If some of you think I'm being a bit "Blue Ray" in trying to establish the true nature of the relationships between tree, planet, cosmos, fungi and ingesting organism I can assure you such is not my intent. There are mysteries here to explore which few other have been given the opportunity to reveal so please READ ON!


--------------------
"Odrade read the word silently and then aloud.
"Arafel."
She knew this word.Reverend Mothers of the tyrants time had impressed it into the Bene Gesserit consciousness,tracing it's roots to the most ancient sources.
"Arafel:the cloud darkness at the end of the universe.""


Edited by Silverwolf (05/30/04 08:26 PM)


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