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Robinhood182
Stranger
Registered: 08/10/14
Posts: 8
Last seen: 7 years, 5 months
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Identification Please
#22168237 - 08/31/15 09:32 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Habitat: Found in Puerto Rico on cow manure Gills: dark gills
Stem: about 4 to 5 inches long and thin
Cap: light beige color, 2 to 3 inches in diameter
Spore print color: working on it, but handling them after leaving them overnight in a bag I noticed the spores were pretty dark
Bruising: dark bruising



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elprawn
Mushroom Guestimator



Registered: 10/17/09
Posts: 14,303
Loc: Ilford, England
Last seen: 2 years, 1 month
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Looks like Copelandia cyanescens.
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MidnightCity
Apache Rose Peacock


Registered: 08/12/12
Posts: 4,053
Loc: Florida
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Re: Identification Please [Re: elprawn]
#22168339 - 08/31/15 10:09 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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It's a Copelandia species, active.
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bluelou
NUTCASEdrugbucket!


Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 1,086
Loc: $hroom Central
Last seen: 6 years, 4 months
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Good healthy ones too!!
Congrats man,get more......
-------------------- Have you tried my(black kow) pile style tek outdoors!!!!!!!!
Edited by bluelou (08/31/15 10:18 AM)
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Coincidentiaoppositorum
deep psychedelic


Registered: 10/27/14
Posts: 1,965
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
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Re: Identification Please [Re: bluelou]
#22168498 - 08/31/15 10:47 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Panaeolus cyanescens for sure, good find!
-E. Borodin
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MidnightCity
Apache Rose Peacock


Registered: 08/12/12
Posts: 4,053
Loc: Florida
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Quote:
Coincidentiaoppositorum said: Panaeolus cyanescens for sure, good find!
-E. Borodin
No, not for sure. This subgenus requires microscopy to accurately determine the specific species. At this point we can only confirm that they are an active Copelandia species.
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Coincidentiaoppositorum
deep psychedelic


Registered: 10/27/14
Posts: 1,965
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
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Quote:
MidnightCity said:
Quote:
Coincidentiaoppositorum said: Panaeolus cyanescens for sure, good find!
-E. Borodin
No, not for sure. This subgenus requires microscopy to accurately determine the specific species. At this point we can only confirm that they are an active Copelandia species.
Of coarse further assessment should always be required for an absolute identification, but if I had to give it my opinion based solely off of a few small pictures, I would say Panaeolus cyanescens for sure.
 You have to admit that upon visual inspection they seem to be Panaeolus cyanescens
(But of coarse it's always best to get a group consensus, as well as to examine the spores microscopically, or proceed with further testing if needed.)
-E. Borodin
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kactus.brand.g
Registered: 08/22/14
Posts: 6,886
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
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Quote:
MidnightCity said:
Quote:
Coincidentiaoppositorum said: Panaeolus cyanescens for sure, good find!
-E. Borodin
No, not for sure. This subgenus requires microscopy to accurately determine the specific species. At this point we can only confirm that they are an active Copelandia species.
I agree There are quite a few other mushrooms in the copelandia family,not just cyanescens.
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Coincidentiaoppositorum
deep psychedelic


Registered: 10/27/14
Posts: 1,965
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
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Copelandia cyanescens and Panaeolus cyanescens are synonyms, though for what ever reason I feel Panaeolus better describes the fungi pictured...Panaeolus tropicalis is also known as Copelandia tropicalis...
I prefer the Panaeolus nomenclature when dealing with these species, but that's just me.
-E. Borodin
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MidnightCity
Apache Rose Peacock


Registered: 08/12/12
Posts: 4,053
Loc: Florida
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Quote:
Coincidentiaoppositorum said: Copelandia cyanescens and Panaeolus cyanescens are synonyms, though for what ever reason I feel Panaeolus better describes the fungi pictured...Panaeolus tropicalis is also known as Copelandia tropicalis...
I prefer the Panaeolus nomenclature when dealing with these species, but that's just me.
-E. Borodin
Copelandia is a subgenus that contains a group of very similar species which are much more potent than other species in Panaeolus, just calling them Panaeolus would be too vague for people who may not be as informed as you.
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Coincidentiaoppositorum
deep psychedelic


Registered: 10/27/14
Posts: 1,965
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
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Quote:
MidnightCity said:
Quote:
Coincidentiaoppositorum said: Copelandia cyanescens and Panaeolus cyanescens are synonyms, though for what ever reason I feel Panaeolus better describes the fungi pictured...Panaeolus tropicalis is also known as Copelandia tropicalis...
I prefer the Panaeolus nomenclature when dealing with these species, but that's just me.
-E. Borodin
Copelandia is a subgenus that contains a group of very similar species which are much more potent than other species in Panaeolus, just calling them Panaeolus would be too vague for people who may not be as informed as you.
Copelandia is a now deprecated genus of mushrooms consisting of at least 12 species. Many American mycologists previously placed members of Panaeolus which stain blue into Copelandia, whilst European mycologists generally used the name Panaeolus instead. Now all mushrooms previously categorised under the Copelandia genus are given the name Panaeolus universally.-Wikipedia
This is why I prefer the Panaeolus nomenclature.
-E. Borodin
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doctorghosty
is the name of me



Registered: 09/02/10
Posts: 11,420
Loc: North GA, God's fav
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Quote:
Coincidentiaoppositorum said:
Quote:
MidnightCity said:
Quote:
Coincidentiaoppositorum said: Copelandia cyanescens and Panaeolus cyanescens are synonyms, though for what ever reason I feel Panaeolus better describes the fungi pictured...Panaeolus tropicalis is also known as Copelandia tropicalis...
I prefer the Panaeolus nomenclature when dealing with these species, but that's just me.
-E. Borodin
Copelandia is a subgenus that contains a group of very similar species which are much more potent than other species in Panaeolus, just calling them Panaeolus would be too vague for people who may not be as informed as you.
Copelandia is a now deprecated genus of mushrooms consisting of at least 12 species. Many American mycologists previously placed members of Panaeolus which stain blue into Copelandia, whilst European mycologists generally used the name Panaeolus instead. Now all mushrooms previously categorised under the Copelandia genus are given the name Panaeolus universally.-Wikipedia
This is why I prefer the Panaeolus nomenclature.
-E. Borodin
Copelandia might be deprecated but it is a useful shorthand for our purposes on this board as all it's members are active, whereas Panaeolus is quite vast and contains a ton of inactive species. Copelandia is used for brevity and clarity.
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MidnightCity
Apache Rose Peacock


Registered: 08/12/12
Posts: 4,053
Loc: Florida
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^^^What the good doctor said.
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Coincidentiaoppositorum
deep psychedelic


Registered: 10/27/14
Posts: 1,965
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
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Quote:
doctorghosty said:
Quote:
Coincidentiaoppositorum said:
Quote:
MidnightCity said:
Quote:
Coincidentiaoppositorum said: Copelandia cyanescens and Panaeolus cyanescens are synonyms, though for what ever reason I feel Panaeolus better describes the fungi pictured...Panaeolus tropicalis is also known as Copelandia tropicalis...
I prefer the Panaeolus nomenclature when dealing with these species, but that's just me.
-E. Borodin
Copelandia is a subgenus that contains a group of very similar species which are much more potent than other species in Panaeolus, just calling them Panaeolus would be too vague for people who may not be as informed as you.
Copelandia is a now deprecated genus of mushrooms consisting of at least 12 species. Many American mycologists previously placed members of Panaeolus which stain blue into Copelandia, whilst European mycologists generally used the name Panaeolus instead. Now all mushrooms previously categorised under the Copelandia genus are given the name Panaeolus universally.-Wikipedia
This is why I prefer the Panaeolus nomenclature.
-E. Borodin
Copelandia might be deprecated but it is a useful shorthand for our purposes on this board as all it's members are active, whereas Panaeolus is quite vast and contains a ton of inactive species. Copelandia is used for brevity and clarity.
I have no issues when people use the Copelandia nomenclature, and I understand why you use it, I was simply explaining why I prefer the Panaeolus nomenclature. I'm simply using the prefered nomenclature over the deprecated synonym.
-E. Borodin
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Blazeyy
Psychonaut



Registered: 08/25/14
Posts: 1,663
Loc: Land of the Phrygian Hats
Last seen: 6 days, 8 hours
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Kinda like Deconica/Psilocybe/Stropharia
more clarity
i prefer Copelandia myself cause it's just so much easier
-------------------- I give you the choice of 2 pills.
With each containing one of the following: Cyanide... Psilocin... Would you take the risk? Didn't think so. This is why Positive Identification prior to consumption is important.
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Coincidentiaoppositorum
deep psychedelic


Registered: 10/27/14
Posts: 1,965
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
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Re: Identification Please [Re: Blazeyy]
#22177485 - 09/02/15 09:42 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Blazeyy said: Kinda like Deconica/Psilocybe/Stropharia
more clarity
i prefer Copelandia myself cause it's just so much easier
Hmmm...I always figured forming a new sungenus where the only distinguishing taxonomic feature is "blue bruising" would be more confusing...
They figured that setting aside a separate distinction for such a minor taxonomic feature was unessecary
...besides there are actives such as panaleous cinctulus that were never designated under the copelandia nomenclature, it was not activity that moved a panaleous into this subclass, it was the actual blue bruising of the cataphore, which really does seem unnecessary...
I often have people ask me "which is better,Copelandia cyanescens or Panaeolus cyanescens?" Not realizing that copelandia and panaleous are identical, I think the copelandia classification ultimately caused more confusion, which is why it's now deprecated...
I have honestly seen so much more confusion resulting from multiple names for the same thing. Most people will automatically assume copelandia is its own genus unique from panaleous
deprecated means "to be avoided" "not prefered", "obsolete", so while dealing with academics in the mycological field it's considered improper nomenclature, so I try not to build bad habits and stick with the academically accepted standard.
But to each his own I suppose, if you really think it's easier more power to you.
-E. Borodin
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MidnightCity
Apache Rose Peacock


Registered: 08/12/12
Posts: 4,053
Loc: Florida
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What sources are you relying on?
In 1996 Gerhardt placed Copelandia back into Panaeolus. That was just shy of twenty years ago and he based his conclusions from microscopy.
We know now, based on DNA evidence, that Copelandia is a seperate genus. From a molecular standpoint it's between Panaeolus and Psilocybe.
You have unique thoughts and opinions about the taxonomy of the Copelandia genus and I'm not here to change your mind about them, you are entitled to think whatever you want.  I do however want to make it clear to others who want to know the facts and make sure they aren't confused about where the genus Copelandia currently stands.
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Coincidentiaoppositorum
deep psychedelic


Registered: 10/27/14
Posts: 1,965
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
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Please provide links for your information source.
The Colorado mycological society provides me with my information, I had to call them, they said the copelandia nomenclature is in fact obsolete, to be avoided, deprecated.
I did not get to ask about these distinguishing microscopic features you claim makes copelandia separate from panaleous, though I figured you would have no problem providing your information source.
Copelandia is a subgenus, so all copelandia mushrooms are panaleous.
With a subgenus you write the name as such: panaleous (copelandia) cyanescens
Simply writing "copelandia cyanescens" causes confusion as people assume that copelandia is its own genus and not a subgenus.
Copelandia is a now deprecated [1] genus of mushrooms consisting of at least 12 species.[2] Many American mycologists previously placed members of Panaeolus which stain blue into Copelandia, whilst European mycologists generally used the name Panaeolus instead. Now all mushrooms previously categorised under the Copelandia genus are given the name Panaeolus universally.[1] The Copelandia genus was a subgenus of Panaeolus created by Abbé Giacomo Bresadola (1847–1929) in honor of Edwin Bingham Copeland (1873–1964), an American who gathered fungi in the Philippines and sent some collections to Bresadola.-Wikipedia (If Wikipedia is wrong you better notify the person who edits the copelandia page!)
Again: Now all mushrooms previously categorised under the Copelandia genus are given the name Panaeolus universally- wikipedia
I understand why you use the term, but in official mycological nomenclature it's considered improper and obsolete.
Again, please provide links to your information source!
-E. Borodin
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Coincidentiaoppositorum
deep psychedelic


Registered: 10/27/14
Posts: 1,965
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
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https://mycotopia.net/topic/93091-molecular-studies-in-panaeolus-and-copelandia/
This was the closest thing I could find to a source of copelandia being re-established, good info, but no official links.
I'm not saying your wrong, I just want to personally review the microscopy, because as far as I have been told from reliable sources, the copelandia nomenclature was in fact deprecated.
-E. Borodin
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Coincidentiaoppositorum
deep psychedelic


Registered: 10/27/14
Posts: 1,965
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
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Gerhardt 1996, he moved Copelandia back into Panaeolus and kept Panaeolina as a separate genus...
Did you read that properly?
It says gerhardt moved copelandia BACK into panaleous in 1996.
So yes, the copelandia nomenclature is deprecated.
-E. Borodin
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Coincidentiaoppositorum
deep psychedelic


Registered: 10/27/14
Posts: 1,965
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
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If copelandia does become re-established based on new genetic evidence I'll change my nomenclature.
But as of now, it's obsolete nomenclature...
-E. Borodin
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MidnightCity
Apache Rose Peacock


Registered: 08/12/12
Posts: 4,053
Loc: Florida
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Quote:
Coincidentiaoppositorum said: The Colorado mycological society provides me with my information, I had to call them, they said the copelandia nomenclature is in fact obsolete, to be avoided, deprecated.
I did not get to ask about these distinguishing microscopic features you claim makes copelandia separate from panaleous
Copelandia is a subgenus, so all copelandia mushrooms are panaleous.
No. I never claimed microscopic features distinguishes Copelandia from Panaeolus.
Again, Copelandia is a genus distinct from Panaeolus on a molecular level. This is based on DNA, NOT microscopy. You either are not comprehending this, misunderstanding it or are being purposefully manipulative.
Quote:
Coincidentiaoppositorum said: I understand why you use the term,
No, exactly the opposite, you have demonstrated repeatedly that you do not understand. I use the term Copelandia as a genus because DNA evidence (again so you understand, DNA is NOT microscopy) proves that on a molecular level Copelandia is a seperate GENUS from Panaeolus. Is there an echo in here?
One of the reasons you are misinformed is because your information is outdated. Here's the DNA workup from Alan Rockefeller: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/20690817
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Blazeyy
Psychonaut



Registered: 08/25/14
Posts: 1,663
Loc: Land of the Phrygian Hats
Last seen: 6 days, 8 hours
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Let's end this debate now, it's an I.D request.
Open a thread on the correct forum, so things are less confusing.
-------------------- I give you the choice of 2 pills.
With each containing one of the following: Cyanide... Psilocin... Would you take the risk? Didn't think so. This is why Positive Identification prior to consumption is important.
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elprawn
Mushroom Guestimator



Registered: 10/17/09
Posts: 14,303
Loc: Ilford, England
Last seen: 2 years, 1 month
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Re: Identification Please [Re: Blazeyy] 1
#22183065 - 09/03/15 01:17 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Blazeyy said: Let's end this debate now, it's an I.D request.
Open a thread on the correct forum, so things are less confusing.
The OP is probably reading this thread thinking "wtf?".
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