|
OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
|
|
Some classics still work.
--------------------
|
kosmokratorshaman
Cosmic Creator


Registered: 05/13/15
Posts: 1,206
Last seen: 7 years, 4 months
|
|
sound happens whether or not someone is present. That's like saying something cant exist if no one has seen it...and we know that has been proven wrong time and time again.
-------------------- I am.
|
maddad
Stranger

Registered: 11/20/13
Posts: 242
Last seen: 8 years, 3 months
|
|
Sound is just waves, those waves occure even if no one is around to hear it. Think about it this way, waterfalls are contantly making noise even when no one is around, but once someone comes around it can be heard. The sound waves may not reach anyones ears but that does not mean they don't exist each and every time a tree falls.
-------------------- I live in an aura of hope because I live in a twilight world of my own self-generated, cannabinated fantasy, and I forget that not everyone is so fortunate. - Terence McKenna
|
nuentoter
conduit



Registered: 09/17/08
Posts: 2,721
Last seen: 7 years, 21 days
|
Re: The Infamous Tree Falling [Re: maddad]
#22177570 - 09/02/15 10:17 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
they are only sound waves because thats what we call them because our bodies have a physical mechanism for transferring vibration into an electrical impulse that our brain interprets and calls sound.
Ask someone who's been deaf their entire life if the tree makes a sound. Ask him to explain the experience of a sound to you. Ask him to explain the experience of music or a nearby gunshot to you.
--------------------
The geometry of us is no chance. We are antennae, we are tuning forks, we are receiver and transmitters of all energy. We are more than we know. - @entheolove "I found I could say things with color and shapes that I couldn't say any other way - things I had no words for" - Georgia O'Keefe I think the word is vagina
|
MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
|
|
Quote:
kosmokratorshaman said: sound happens whether or not someone is present. That's like saying something cant exist if no one has seen it...and we know that has been proven wrong time and time again.
Sound is a phenomenon that requires a stimulus to a system which registers sound. A deaf person witnessing a tree fall does not experience sound, only vibration in the body and air on the skin. For a deaf person, sound qua sound does NOT exist. It exists to a hearing person next to the deaf person, but it does not exist if only the deaf person is present. You can imagine a crashing sound, but without an ear or a recording device, sound is only potential not actual. Sound is a result of the falling event upon a recording mechanism. It is a subjective event. There is no sound without an ear, just molecular motion. Sound is not a self-existent, objective 'thing.' Pretty simple example to illustrate a mind-blowing point about how we project our subjective experience onto space-time that has nothing to do with our experience.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
Edited by MarkostheGnostic (09/02/15 12:31 PM)
|
nuentoter
conduit



Registered: 09/17/08
Posts: 2,721
Last seen: 7 years, 21 days
|
|
Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
Sound is a phenomenon that requires a stimulus to a system which registers sound. A deaf person witnessing a tree fall does not experience sound, only vibration in the body and air on the skin. For a deaf person, sound qua sound does NOT exist. It exists to a hearing person next to the deaf person, but it does not exist if only the deaf person is present. You can imagine a crashing sound, but without an ear or a recording device, sound is only potential not actual. Sound is a result of the falling event upon a recording mechanism. It is a subjective event. There is no sound without an ear, just molecular motion. Sound is not a self-existent, objective 'thing.'Pretty simple example to illustrate a mind-blowing point about how we project our subjective experience onto space-time that has nothing to do with our experience.
--------------------
The geometry of us is no chance. We are antennae, we are tuning forks, we are receiver and transmitters of all energy. We are more than we know. - @entheolove "I found I could say things with color and shapes that I couldn't say any other way - things I had no words for" - Georgia O'Keefe I think the word is vagina
|
MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
|
Re: The Infamous Tree Falling [Re: nuentoter]
#22178018 - 09/02/15 12:31 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
|
maddad
Stranger

Registered: 11/20/13
Posts: 242
Last seen: 8 years, 3 months
|
|
Sound is a wave just like light, and light exists even if no one is there to see it. It vibrates the air molecules, which happens regardless of a mechanism being able to pick it up. If it did not then the universe would not exist without someone to witness it.
-------------------- I live in an aura of hope because I live in a twilight world of my own self-generated, cannabinated fantasy, and I forget that not everyone is so fortunate. - Terence McKenna
|
maddad
Stranger

Registered: 11/20/13
Posts: 242
Last seen: 8 years, 3 months
|
Re: The Infamous Tree Falling [Re: maddad]
#22178613 - 09/02/15 03:19 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
I will admit it does need a medium which it can travel through, but as I said the air molecules do that. And who is to say the other trees around dont pick up those vibrations?
-------------------- I live in an aura of hope because I live in a twilight world of my own self-generated, cannabinated fantasy, and I forget that not everyone is so fortunate. - Terence McKenna
|
Tropism
ChasingTail


Registered: 09/12/09
Posts: 2,039
|
Re: The Infamous Tree Falling [Re: maddad]
#22178656 - 09/02/15 03:31 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Somehow I feel the question was not originally intended to be taken so literally, to the point of arguing the definition of sound. While this conversation is neat and regards experience and subjectivity quite thoroughly I'd wager the author meant to use "the tree falling in the forest" as a vehicle to express experience or perception, rather than focusing on the particular sense in question.
Of course I could easily be wrong. For example I don't know the context of which it is being said, he may very well be at a science convention and asking a quite literal,--non-proverbial-- question.
|
nuentoter
conduit



Registered: 09/17/08
Posts: 2,721
Last seen: 7 years, 21 days
|
Re: The Infamous Tree Falling [Re: maddad]
#22178671 - 09/02/15 03:33 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Im quite sure they do, but do they perceive is as a sound? or for simply what it is, a vibration shockwave of matter emitting outward.
--------------------
The geometry of us is no chance. We are antennae, we are tuning forks, we are receiver and transmitters of all energy. We are more than we know. - @entheolove "I found I could say things with color and shapes that I couldn't say any other way - things I had no words for" - Georgia O'Keefe I think the word is vagina
|
WScott
´ ɑ `▽ ᑲᓇᑕ


Registered: 07/31/05
Posts: 5,713
Loc: Nacada
Last seen: 9 months, 15 days
|
Re: The Infamous Tree Falling [Re: nuentoter]
#22178753 - 09/02/15 03:49 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Chances are a squirrel heard the damn thing. Close this fucking thread.
--------------------

|
MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
|
Re: The Infamous Tree Falling [Re: maddad]
#22178763 - 09/02/15 03:50 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
maddad said: Sound is a wave just like light, and light exists even if no one is there to see it. It vibrates the air molecules, which happens regardless of a mechanism being able to pick it up. If it did not then the universe would not exist without someone to witness it.
Vibrations occur, but sound qua sound is a subjective experience of those vibrations impinging upon cochlear, neurologic equipment. The air and earth around the event may tremble but they do not 'hear' sound. Sound occurs in the mind of a creature equipped to convert sound waves to audible impulses, or in the mechanism of a recording device. Without either of these modes of perception, natural or mechanical to receive and translate, there is no sound.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
Edited by MarkostheGnostic (09/02/15 04:00 PM)
|
maddad
Stranger

Registered: 11/20/13
Posts: 242
Last seen: 8 years, 3 months
|
|
Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:
maddad said: Sound is a wave just like light, and light exists even if no one is there to see it. It vibrates the air molecules, which happens regardless of a mechanism being able to pick it up. If it did not then the universe would not exist without someone to witness it.
Vibrations occur, but sound qua sound is a subjective experience of those vibrations impinging upon cochlear, neurologic equipment. The air and earth around the event may tremble but they do not 'hear' sound. Sound occurs in the mind of a creature equipped to convert sound waves to audible impulses, or in the mechanism of a recording device. Without either of these modes of perception, natural or mechanical to receive and translate, there is no sound.
I would have to disagree, sound is just the name that we have given these waves. For instance dog whistles are inaudible to humans but dogs can hear that frequency. So does that mean that dog whistles don't make noise if no dog is around to hear it. No, because it is still emitted into the air. It still creates those waves, and those waves still carry "sound". I understand that sound is perceptual, as is light. But that doesn't mean they don't exist without anything to perceive them. Otherwise we would not be able to have this dicussion in the first place, because nothing would exist until there was an observer. Sound transcends the meaning we give it, we can only perceive it the way it occurs in our brains, that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist outside of that.
And hearing is beside the point, there are studies of trees moving and dancing to music. You can look that up. Trees don't have ears so how do they hear? Through the vibrations of the waves which carry the same meaning even without ears, or a mechanism to hear.
-------------------- I live in an aura of hope because I live in a twilight world of my own self-generated, cannabinated fantasy, and I forget that not everyone is so fortunate. - Terence McKenna
|
MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
|
Re: The Infamous Tree Falling [Re: maddad]
#22179916 - 09/02/15 08:02 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
This is becoming tedious. Sound is not carried, waves are carried through a given medium. Sound is the result of those waves on a system able to register and translate those waves into its constituent parts (pitch, amplitude, etc.). I'm obviously in agreement with subjective idealism, but Scientific American Magazine appears to be in agreement: "The magazine Scientific American corroborated the technical aspect of this question, while leaving out the philosophic side, a year later when they asked the question slightly reworded, "If a tree were to fall on an uninhabited island, would there be any sound?" And gave a more technical answer, "Sound is vibration, transmitted to our senses through the mechanism of the ear, and recognized as sound only at our nerve centers. The falling of the tree or any other disturbance will produce vibration of the air. If there be no ears to hear, there will be no sound." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_a_tree_falls_in_a_forest
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
|
maddad
Stranger

Registered: 11/20/13
Posts: 242
Last seen: 8 years, 3 months
|
|
I wouldn't say its an idealism, sound is just how we term the difference between it and other types of waves. I agree that it comes down to how we perceive it, but to say that if no one is there to perceive it then it does not exist is foolish. Obviously the waves are there, so "sound" is as well. It is simply a word for our perception of incoming sensory data. That data would still be out there, just because it does not get processed doesn't mean anything, other than that it goes unheard.
-------------------- I live in an aura of hope because I live in a twilight world of my own self-generated, cannabinated fantasy, and I forget that not everyone is so fortunate. - Terence McKenna
|
nuentoter
conduit



Registered: 09/17/08
Posts: 2,721
Last seen: 7 years, 21 days
|
Re: The Infamous Tree Falling [Re: maddad]
#22180539 - 09/02/15 09:39 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
I dunno if you get a deaf and blind person to stand there they can probably still tell you the tree fell by receiving and processing the same wave of matter washing across them. The tree was never heard and has no sound to this man. not because he is deaf so much as the word sound has no meaning, it is interpreted differently which changes the terminology used, which changes the nature of the originating action.
--------------------
The geometry of us is no chance. We are antennae, we are tuning forks, we are receiver and transmitters of all energy. We are more than we know. - @entheolove "I found I could say things with color and shapes that I couldn't say any other way - things I had no words for" - Georgia O'Keefe I think the word is vagina
|
OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
|
Re: The Infamous Tree Falling [Re: nuentoter]
#22180711 - 09/02/15 09:56 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Just how many times is this damned tree going to keep falling and who is setting it back up?
--------------------
|
unsui888
Embodied


Registered: 10/11/08
Posts: 1,154
Loc: United States
Last seen: 3 months, 30 days
|
|
I don't know, but I'm going to have to agree with Markos, nuentoter, and Scientific American on this one...
-------------------- "a note for asses: what is very convincing, is not necessarily true - it is merely convincing" primus------------------------------------------------------------------------ -----------------------------------------------mama didn't raise no fool
|
BrendanFlock
Stranger


Registered: 06/01/13
Posts: 4,216
Last seen: 22 hours, 20 minutes
|
Re: The Infamous Tree Falling [Re: unsui888]
#22185325 - 09/03/15 09:35 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
The meaning of existence IS NOT A METHOD OF TRUST OR FAITH!!
We are here and so are the laws of nature and the universe...OF COURSE THE TREE MAKES A SOUND..and maybe with a new piece of technology we can detect it..or else..
|
|