|
roquet
Expat tippler


Registered: 05/29/07
Posts: 1,195
Loc: Dubai بجدية عربي...
|
Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease 3
#22163500 - 08/30/15 05:53 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
http://www.theguardian.com/culture/2015/aug/30/marc-lewis-the-neuroscientist-who-believes-addiction-is-not-a-disease
Lewis, famous for detailing his own years of drug addiction in a book, divides the medical profession by arguing it is a behavioural problem, not a medical affliction
For decades the medical profession has largely treated addiction as as a chronic brain disease. The US government’s National Institute on Drug Abuse characterises addicts as compulsive drug seekers and users who continue taking drugs despite harmful and unwanted consequences. “It is considered a brain disease,” the institute says, “because drugs change the brain; they change its structure and how it works.” 'No one starts with a needle in their arm': a police chief fights drugs with empathy
Dr Marc Lewis, a developmental neuroscientist – perhaps most famous for detailing his own years of drug addiction and abuse in Memoirs of an Addicted Brain – strongly refutes this conventional disease model of addiction. His new book, The Biology of Desire: Why Addiction is not a Disease, argues that considering addiction as a disease is not only wrong, but also harmful. Rather, he argues, addiction is a behavioural problem that requires willpower and motivation to change.
Lewis’s theory has divided the medical profession and those suffering from addiction. He has been lauded by some for putting the theories challenging the disease model together into one book; others have labelled his ideas dangerous, and him a zealot.
Guardian Australia sat down with Lewis before his appearance at Melbourne writers festival on Sunday and the festival of dangerous ideas in Sydney to talk about the controversy, as well as his theories on how addiction can be treated and overcome.
Through your years as an addict, were you questioning the idea that addiction was a disease you were suffering from? Or is this book purely a result of your later studies and expertise in this area?
Well my training was as a developmental psychologist, so I studied child development, cognitive development, emotional development, and personal development. So I really had a strong developmental framework for thinking about all human psychological phenomena.
When I started thinking about addiction in my first book, it was more or less descriptive. So, ‘This is what happens to your brain when you become addicted,’ and, ‘This is what drugs do to your brain.’ But in this latest book, I wanted to really try to explain addiction, and it just came crashing down that this was a developmental phenomenon. You grow into addiction. It takes place in a sequence or a progression through repeated trials, through repeated exposure, repeated actions, and through practice.
So it wasn’t until you started writing about what addiction is that you really began to think describing it as a disease didn’t make sense to you?
When I was doing drugs, I wasn’t thinking about it in any kind of analytical way, well except, you know, trying to analyse, ‘Why the hell am I doing this to myself?’ But no, I think in writing The Biology of Desire … put it this way. It never occurred to me that addiction was anything other than a developmental phenomenon. The whole idea that addiction is a disease never made sense to me either personally, scientifically, nor through my discourse with other people who are addicted.
Have people been supportive of your arguments that addiction is a behavioural problem, but not a medical one?
It’s been mixed. There’s certainly been negativity. I just had a review in the Washington Post where I was called a “zealot”.
But what really moves me is the addicts who get in touch and say, ‘Don’t take this away from me. If you take away the disease label, then basically I won’t be able to get better, if you don’t let me understand myself as having a disease.’ It’s a very strange argument, to have to think of yourself as having a disease because that’s the only way you can live with yourself and deal with the addiction. And then I feel badly, because I don’t want to harm these people or take away something that they need conceptually or motivationally. Advertisement
There is this idea that the addiction label is the only thing that is going to save them and stop them from being blamed and denigrated as addicts by society. They feel that if it is a disease, they don’t have to feel that burden or shame, because it’s not their fault. It’s hard to pull the rug out from under that without causing some upset.
Is there anyone for whom addiction is a disease? Are there a small portion of people who are unable to stop taking these drugs, who are wired to be reliant no matter what kind of treatments or motivation they have? Or do you believe that for anyone, addiction should not be labelled a disease?
That’s a really good question. I guess that’s why I’ve been called a zealot in the last day or so. I guess there is a point where the devastation of addiction, combined with the situation of people’s lives – whether through poverty or crime and social isolation – and when those factors hook up they get really hard to stop, really, really hard to stop.
I was in Vancouver a couple of weeks ago at a supervised injecting room, so these were the most down and out people, really long-term street people. Most of them had grown up in foster homes, they had no property, no money. They didn’t connect with the world like most normal people, they lived on the street and their whole lives were organised around getting the next fix.
Given the way their lives are structured I think its very, very hard for them to stop. Does that make it a disease? Well, no, I don’t think it does. I think that makes it a social problem that’s terribly entrenched. It has to do with dislocation, alientation, poverty and all these sort of factors and a lack of care by the larger society for people who are suffering. When you put all those factors on the table, then you don’t have to use the disease label to explain why some people can get really deeply stuck in addiction.
OK, but there are also high-functioning, middle-class and wealthy people with jobs and social support who would describe themselves as addicts, and for whom those social factors you talk about don’t resonate. Despite having all the resources in the world available to them, they feel they can’t stop.
Well I think those people have a better chance of quitting. They have family, they can afford therapy, they can talk to people. But of course no, I don’t want to say people who are riding high in society can not become very deeply addicted. So what’s left then in the formula? Probably the fact that addiction includes a very strong compulsive property, so when people have been addicted to something for some period of time, the psychological process moves from impulse to compulsion.
And that also involves in part, brain changes. The parts of the brain that become activated when craving is triggered by cues changes. So there’s something going on that makes it hard to stop for very good neurological reasons. So then, do you want to call addiction a disease? Well, maybe, then you’re getting close I think, because you could call it a pathology I guess. Because obsessive compulsive disorder, that’s a pathology right? So yeah, I think there is a point at which the line betweens those definitions starts to blur.
So it sounds like it comes to a point where perhaps addiction does fall into disease territory then?
[Pauses]. I wouldn’t say disease. I would call it disorder. Or even the adjective, “pathological”. But I just don’t like those words because there’re all part of this particular framework, and that’s the dominate framework in the US and parts of Europe, that this is in fact a chronic brain disease. It’s hard to talk about it as if sometimes it’s a disease or sometimes it’s not. Then the argument starts to get kind of mushy. But when you are in the grips of compulsion, yeah, there is a process going on that of course isn’t healthy and requires a certain amount of cognitive and emotional and probably therapeutic work to get out of. So yeah, OK, I’ll grant you that you could call that, certainly, a disorder. Advertisement
Why does it matter? Disease, disorder, behavioural problem? Does it affect the way we might think about treating those suffering from an addiction?
It sure does. The whole campaign to see addiction as a disease is that it works against people’s sense of empowerment. If you have a disease, you’re a patient. If you’re a patient, you have to take instructions from your doctor and do what you’re told. So people line up for rehabilitation centres and often have to wait for a long period of time, long after they’ve lost the motivational rush to actually quit.
Then if you do get into rehab, you’re putting yourself in somebody else’s hands and you’re going with the program. But the best way to combat addiction is through setting different goals for yourself and setting your own goals. “I want this for my life, I don’t want that, I want to change.” That kind of self-perspective change and self-development of future goals and orientation is critical.
That’s been an argument against rehabilitation, that it doesn’t always set people up to meet personal goals and readjust to society.
That’s right. It really hinges on the idea of who is setting the goals here. Who is telling you what to do? Are you telling yourself what to do, or are you being told? If you’re being told what to do, you fall into a position of helplessness or disempowerment, which makes it hard to develop this head of steam, this effortful strength and self-control and willpower. I mean really, a lot of it is about willpower to master this thing, to take it in hand and change it. The best way to combat addiction is by setting goals for yourself.
Different types of rehab programs are needed for different types of drugs, for example it might take someone longer to get off ice than say, heroin, and therefore programs should be tailored to recognise that. But given what you’re saying, would the model of treatment be relatively the same across all drugs, because it’s more about willpower and setting goals than the type of drug being abused?
A good question. I don’t think so. Even though it has those goals in common, people are very different and there are many ways to quit. Some people will need to focus more on cognitive tricks to self-program to modify their behaviour, others will need to change their environment to make sure they don’t drive home past the liqour store, and for other people it’s much more of a motivational thrust, more mindfulness and meditation. For others, it’s about deeply connecting intimately and honestly with loved ones. Those are really different ways of getting better, even though what they all have in common is that theme of empowerment of self-motivation.
I can see why people with an addiction resist this way of thinking. No one likes to think of themselves of having a lack of willpower, or being to blame. Some members of the medical establishment are resistant to this idea too. Why do you think that is?
I think it’s partly ownership, it’s partly they way they’ve been trained to operate. I don’t hate doctors, there are wonderful doctors. But doctors are trained to look at things in terms of categories, diagnoses, which have a certain set of possibilities for treatment or certain sequence of things to try. It’s a really strongly inbred way of looking at very serious problems. And it’s hard for them to shake it.
Right, but we need some kind of diagnostic framework. Are you criticising the medical profession for needing to label patients? Because don’t we need to label people to some extent in order to narrow down treatments?
Sure we do. I’ve had a number of medical issues in the last few years and I’m damn glad my doctors have had a diagnosis and a treatment strategy. So yes, doctors do need to function like that. But it’s just I don’t think addiction is a medical problem. It has a medical side to it. So doctors should be involved in an adjunct capacity, particularly with drugs that produce withdrawal systems when you stop taking them. So doctors should help people with the medical problems associated with addiction, but addiction itself is not a medical affliction.
So what would you say to those who read your book, have an addiction, and have taken in what you have to say and want to know what to do? 'Drug addiction comes with huge amounts of stigma attached'
I’ve had dozens of emails specifically to ask that. People saying, “My son is addicted to heroin,” or “I’ve been addicted for many years.” I say that well, there are many different ways for people to kick their habit and it is important to think about where that habit comes from and social factors. The person’s developmental stage is important, for example addiction is a different beast for someone in their 20s compared to in their 40s. Some people outgrow addiction and spontaneous recovery is just another way of saying people stop when it gets too much. They can’t handle it, and that often taken place when emerging through their 20s and into their 30s and wanting to start taking responsibility for their life in a different way. Treatment depends entirely on who I think they are, and what they are going through.
• Marc Lewis: Learning Addiction; Sydney, Sunday 6 September, 2pm, Playhouse Theatre
|
dark3st
Stranger


Registered: 08/02/13
Posts: 3,332
Last seen: 8 years, 3 months
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: roquet]
#22164313 - 08/30/15 11:13 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
...Treatment depends entirely on who I think they are, and what they are going through.
Sounds like its about the money to him.
-------------------- Back.. I'm going to do it...I'm getting sober from opiates ... I got weed, gabapentin, propranolol, and GHB, I have 100mg tramadol left. I can do this. I can do this. OFINTQWGVGAKGCYKBUBX free dark P. Tampanensis prints to ODD members.
no stamps atm FREE SEEDS for ODD WCA members ONLY I have these seeds: Orange, red, and yellow sweet peppers, Purple poppies, White Habanero, Yellow Thai, Bolivian rainbow peppers, milk thistle, red chilly pepper, HBWR.
|
morrowasted
Worldwide Stepper



Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 17 hours
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: roquet] 1
#22164353 - 08/30/15 11:24 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Disease is just a word.
The disease model of medicine posits that
- there is an organ
- there is a defect in the organ
- there is a consistent set of symptoms associated with that defect
In addiction, the organ is said to be the brain. The defect is said to be a certain kind of neural pathology. This pathology involves glutamate pathways projecting from the cortex to the ventral tegmental area, and in active (not clean and sober) cases of addiction, a state of dopaminergic allostasis in the VTA and an excess of dopamine reuptake transporters in the nucleus accumbens. The symptoms associated with this pathology are craving for the drug, environmental triggers to use the drug, and decreased pleasure sensitivity to the drug.
The pathology is not a matter of debate. Rats with the genetic potential to exhibit this pathology have been used in laboratory experiments involving addiction for over three decades. So the argument boils down to whether or not you want to call this brain pathology a "defect". If we do, then it is appropriate to characterize addiction as a brain disease. The following advantages result from considering addiction to be a brain disease:- addicts are more likely to realize that relapse can be a fatal mistake
- addicts are treated as patients rather than problems
- brain research on addiction is more likely to be funded
- pharmacological solutions to addiction have a sensible foundation
I agree that the solution to addiction is largely behavioral, but I think this man stands is an extreme outlier in the field when it comes to his opinion.
http://www.jneurosci.org/content/34/16/5529.abstract Cannabis Use Is Quantitatively Associated with Nucleus Accumbens and Amygdala Abnormalities in Young Adult Recreational Users
Quote:
Marijuana is the most commonly used illicit drug in the United States, but little is known about its effects on the human brain, particularly on reward/aversion regions implicated in addiction, such as the nucleus accumbens and amygdala. Animal studies show structural changes in brain regions such as the nucleus accumbens after exposure to Δ9-tetrahydrocannabinol, but less is known about cannabis use and brain morphometry in these regions in humans. We collected high-resolution MRI scans on young adult recreational marijuana users and nonusing controls and conducted three independent analyses of morphometry in these structures: (1) gray matter density using voxel-based morphometry, (2) volume (total brain and regional volumes), and (3) shape (surface morphometry). Gray matter density analyses revealed greater gray matter density in marijuana users than in control participants in the left nucleus accumbens extending to subcallosal cortex, hypothalamus, sublenticular extended amygdala, and left amygdala, even after controlling for age, sex, alcohol use, and cigarette smoking. Trend-level effects were observed for a volume increase in the left nucleus accumbens only. Significant shape differences were detected in the left nucleus accumbens and right amygdala. The left nucleus accumbens showed salient exposure-dependent alterations across all three measures and an altered multimodal relationship across measures in the marijuana group. These data suggest that marijuana exposure, even in young recreational users, is associated with exposure-dependent alterations of the neural matrix of core reward structures and is consistent with animal studies of changes in dendritic arborization.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24082084 Loss of metabotropic glutamate receptor 2 escalates alcohol consumption.
Quote:
Identification of genes influencing complex traits is hampered by genetic heterogeneity, the modest effect size of many alleles, and the likely involvement of rare and uncommon alleles. Etiologic complexity can be simplified in model organisms. By genomic sequencing, linkage analysis, and functional validation, we identified that genetic variation of Grm2, which encodes metabotropic glutamate receptor 2 (mGluR2), alters alcohol preference in animal models. Selectively bred alcohol-preferring (P) rats are homozygous for a Grm2 stop codon (Grm2 *407) that leads to largely uncompensated loss of mGluR2. mGluR2 receptor expression was absent, synaptic glutamate transmission was impaired, and expression of genes involved in synaptic function was altered. Grm2 *407 was linked to increased alcohol consumption and preference in F2 rats generated by intercrossing inbred P and nonpreferring rats. Pharmacologic blockade of mGluR2 escalated alcohol self-administration in Wistar rats, the parental strain of P and nonpreferring rats. The causal role of mGluR2 in altered alcohol preference was further supported by elevated alcohol consumption in Grm2 (-/-) mice. Together, these data point to mGluR2 as an origin of alcohol preference and a potential therapeutic target.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10986361 Changes in hippocampal morphology following chronic treatment with the synthetic cannabinoid WIN 55,212-2.
Quote:
Learning and memory are often correlated with cellular changes within the hippocampus, and drugs or environmental factors which affect learning and memory will thus often induce observable morphological changes in this structure. Like tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) itself, many synthetic cannabinoids such as the CB-1 receptor agonist WIN 55,212-2 will induce learning and memory changes. In the current study, we investigate whether or not these changes could be related to structural changes within the hippocampus. Adult male Sprague-Dawley rats were injected twice daily (12:00 and 0:00 h) subcutaneously with WIN 55,212-2 (2.0 mg/kg) in DMSO or DMSO for 21 days. On day 22, animals were perfused and stained immunochemically for the dendritic marker MAP-2, or with cresyl violet. Morphometric analysis showed dendritic rearrangement with increased staining of MAP-2 in CA3 and the lower blade of the dentate gyrus. However, a loss of staining was observed in CA1. Counting of cresyl violet stained sections showed an apparent increase in granule cell number in the lower blade of the dentate gyrus. This work shows the potential for cannabinoids to influence hippocampal morphology. The pattern of changes may be similar to that seen after ischemic or toxic damage, but may be opposite to changes seen in stress.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23966583 The effects of cocaine self-administration on dendritic spine density in the rat hippocampus are dependent on genetic background.
Quote:
Chronic exposure to cocaine induces modifications to neurons in the brain regions involved in addiction. Hence, we evaluated cocaine-induced changes in the hippocampal CA1 field in Fischer 344 (F344) and Lewis (LEW) rats, 2 strains that have been widely used to study genetic predisposition to drug addiction, by combining intracellular Lucifer yellow injection with confocal microscopy reconstruction of labeled neurons. Specifically, we examined the effects of cocaine self-administration on the structure, size, and branching complexity of the apical dendrites of CA1 pyramidal neurons. In addition, we quantified spine density in the collaterals of the apical dendritic arbors of these neurons. We found differences between these strains in several morphological parameters. For example, CA1 apical dendrites were more branched and complex in LEW than in F344 rats, while the spine density in the collateral dendrites of the apical dendritic arbors was greater in F344 rats. Interestingly, cocaine self-administration in LEW rats augmented the spine density, an effect that was not observed in the F344 strain. These results reveal significant structural differences in CA1 pyramidal cells between these strains and indicate that cocaine self-administration has a distinct effect on neuron morphology in the hippocampus of rats with different genetic backgrounds.
Edited by morrowasted (09/01/15 10:29 AM)
|
dark3st
Stranger


Registered: 08/02/13
Posts: 3,332
Last seen: 8 years, 3 months
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: morrowasted]
#22164386 - 08/30/15 11:34 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
I agree that the solution to addiction is largely behavioral
Quote:
In addiction, the organ is said to be the brain
Behavioral changes are In response to brain chemistry, and conditioning. If They are both unchanged nothing changes.
-------------------- Back.. I'm going to do it...I'm getting sober from opiates ... I got weed, gabapentin, propranolol, and GHB, I have 100mg tramadol left. I can do this. I can do this. OFINTQWGVGAKGCYKBUBX free dark P. Tampanensis prints to ODD members.
no stamps atm FREE SEEDS for ODD WCA members ONLY I have these seeds: Orange, red, and yellow sweet peppers, Purple poppies, White Habanero, Yellow Thai, Bolivian rainbow peppers, milk thistle, red chilly pepper, HBWR.
|
Psilosopherr
A psilly goose



Registered: 02/15/12
Posts: 12,278
Last seen: 1 month, 10 days
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: roquet]
#22164597 - 08/30/15 12:24 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
|
morrowasted
Worldwide Stepper



Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 17 hours
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: dark3st] 2
#22164891 - 08/30/15 01:41 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
dark3st said:
Quote:
I agree that the solution to addiction is largely behavioral
Quote:
In addiction, the organ is said to be the brain
Behavioral changes are In response to brain chemistry, and conditioning. If They are both unchanged nothing changes.
Which is why in rehab programs you often hear the phrases, "If nothing changes, nothing changes." and "Change your people, places, and things."
Rehabs these days operate on the genetic/environmental/metabolic model of addiction. An environmental trigger, like exposure to a chemical such as alcohol or prescription painkillers, causes an anomalous release of dopamine for some people. This is typically explained in terms of a genetic predisposition that has resulted in an atypical neural physiology between the ventral tegmental area and the nucleus accumbens. Whenever this dopamine spike occurs, glutamate pathways are formed connecting the cortex to the VTA. These pathways are involved in memory. The evolutionary function of a glutamate pathway being formed in this way was to help you remember activities that increased what is technically termed "fitness": eating, sex, finding shelter, etc. But when drugs cause a dopamine spike and a strong glutamate pathway is formed, this process is hijacked, so that the brain mistakes drug use as a survival mechanism.
Thus, environmental cues that activate the glutamate pathways ought to be avoided. In rehabs these are called "triggers". If you are an alcoholic, this would mean not going to bars, barbecues, or whatever it is you associated with drinking. The strength of these connections is variable and depends on genetic influences, length and frequency of use, type of drug used (meth and other stimulants are the hardest to recover from). Only time away from the drug and positive associations with new people, places, and things can heal the brain.
So he is right to say that behavioral changes are needed, and this is already the way that addiction is treated. But arguing that addiction isn't a disease doesn't seem to have many advantages.
|
dark3st
Stranger


Registered: 08/02/13
Posts: 3,332
Last seen: 8 years, 3 months
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: morrowasted]
#22164944 - 08/30/15 01:58 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
morrowasted said:
Quote:
dark3st said:
Quote:
I agree that the solution to addiction is largely behavioral
Quote:
In addiction, the organ is said to be the brain
Behavioral changes are In response to brain chemistry, and conditioning. If They are both unchanged nothing changes.
Which is why in rehab programs you often hear the phrases, "If nothing changes, nothing changes." and "Change your people, places, and things."
Rehabs these days operate on the genetic/environmental/metabolic model of addiction. An environmental trigger, like exposure to a chemical such as alcohol or prescription painkillers, causes an anomalous release of dopamine for some people. This is typically explained in terms of a genetic predisposition that has resulted in an atypical neural physiology between the ventral tegmental area and the nucleus accumbens. Whenever this dopamine spike occurs, glutamate pathways are formed connecting the cortex to the VTA. These pathways are involved in memory. The evolutionary function of a glutamate pathway being formed in this way was to help you remember activities that increased what is technically termed "fitness": eating, sex, finding shelter, etc. But when drugs cause a dopamine spike and a strong glutamate pathway is formed, this process is hijacked, so that the brain mistakes drug use as a survival mechanism.
Thus, environmental cues that activate the glutamate pathways ought to be avoided. In rehabs these are called "triggers". If you are an alcoholic, this would mean not going to bars, barbecues, or whatever it is you associated with drinking. The strength of these connections is variable and depends on genetic influences, length and frequency of use, type of drug used (meth and other stimulants are the hardest to recover from). Only time away from the drug and positive associations with new people, places, and things can heal the brain.
So he is right to say that behavioral changes are needed, and this is already the way that addiction is treated. But arguing that addiction isn't a disease doesn't seem to have many advantages.
That's a great way to put it, I have a funk keyboard so its hard for me to type much
-------------------- Back.. I'm going to do it...I'm getting sober from opiates ... I got weed, gabapentin, propranolol, and GHB, I have 100mg tramadol left. I can do this. I can do this. OFINTQWGVGAKGCYKBUBX free dark P. Tampanensis prints to ODD members.
no stamps atm FREE SEEDS for ODD WCA members ONLY I have these seeds: Orange, red, and yellow sweet peppers, Purple poppies, White Habanero, Yellow Thai, Bolivian rainbow peppers, milk thistle, red chilly pepper, HBWR.
|
DragonChaser
Ice in Her Ass and Pussy



Registered: 04/27/06
Posts: 7,212
Last seen: 6 years, 2 months
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: roquet]
#22165998 - 08/30/15 07:06 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
I don't know, from the very beginning when I started drinking I drank like an alcoholic. I was 15, and the drunker I got, the drunker I wanted to be. I'd drink until I was in a blackout state, and if I puked up some booze, I drank more.
Got alcohol poisoning the third time I got drunk. From that first experience, I was obsessed with altered states. Not like my friends, who could take it or leave it. I always wanted to be fucked up, and as fucked up as possible.
You'll hear a lot of people in NA and AA say that they believe they had the personality of an alcoholic/addict before they ever touched a drink or a drug, and I think that's true for me. All the personal defects they talk about in the program were in my from puberty onwards.
-------------------- My name is Mud
|
morrowasted
Worldwide Stepper



Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 17 hours
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: dark3st]
#22166032 - 08/30/15 07:14 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/hbm.22474/abstractAbstract
Substance use disorders (SUD) have been associated with dysfunction in reward processing, habit formation, and cognitive-behavioral control. Accordingly, neurocircuitry models of addiction highlight roles for nucleus accumbens, dorsal striatum, and prefrontal/anterior cingulate cortex. However, the precise nature of the disrupted interactions between these brain regions in SUD, and the psychological correlates thereof, remain unclear. Here we used magnetic resonance imaging to measure rest-state functional connectivity of three key striatal nuclei (nucleus accumbens, dorsal caudate, and dorsal putamen) in a sample of 40 adult male prison inmates (n = 22 diagnosed with SUD; n = 18 without SUD). Relative to the non-SUD group, the SUD group exhibited significantly lower functional connectivity between the nucleus accumbens and a network of frontal cortical regions involved in cognitive control (dorsal anterior cingulate cortex, dorsolateral prefrontal cortex, and frontal operculum). There were no group differences in functional connectivity for the dorsal caudate or dorsal putamen. Moreover, the SUD group exhibited impairments in laboratory measures of cognitive-behavioral control, and individual differences in functional connectivity between nucleus accumbens and the frontal cortical regions were related to individual differences in measures of cognitive-behavioral control across groups. The strength of the relationship between functional connectivity and cognitive control did not differ between groups. These results indicate that SUD is associated with abnormal interactions between subcortical areas that process reward (nucleus accumbens) and cortical areas that govern cognitive-behavioral control. Hum Brain Mapp 35:4282–4292, 2014
http://www.diss.fu-berlin.de/diss/servlets/MCRFileNodeServlet/FUDISS_derivate_000000015482/Wiers_Corinde.diss.pdf
In these paradigms, it has been shown that BOLD activation in mesocorticolimbic structures is increased in drug-users as compared to non-addicted individuals (for a review in 8alcohol addiction: Heinz et al., 2009; for meta-analyses: Kuhn and Gallinat, 2011; Schacht et al., 2013).
All drugs release dopamine in the mesocorticolimbic system, a response that becomes sensitized after repeated drug use. Because of Pavlovian drug cue–reward associations, drug cues acquire incentive sensitization and consequently both grab the drug user’s attention and elicit approach behavior (Robinson and Berridge 1993, 2003).
|
morrowasted
Worldwide Stepper



Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 17 hours
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: DragonChaser]
#22166056 - 08/30/15 07:18 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
DragonChaser said: I don't know, from the very beginning when I started drinking I drank like an alcoholic. I was 15, and the drunker I got, the drunker I wanted to be. I'd drink until I was in a blackout state, and if I puked up some booze, I drank more.
Got alcohol poisoning the third time I got drunk. From that first experience, I was obsessed with altered states. Not like my friends, who could take it or leave it. I always wanted to be fucked up, and as fucked up as possible.
You'll hear a lot of people in NA and AA say that they believe they had the personality of an alcoholic/addict before they ever touched a drink or a drug, and I think that's true for me. All the personal defects they talk about in the program were in my from puberty onwards.
I don't think he is arguing that there aren't people who are genetically predisposed to drink like that. I think he is arguing that we simply shouldn't treat addiction as a disease, but rather as a behavioral problem. I am not convinced, but I'd have to read his book.
|
DragonChaser
Ice in Her Ass and Pussy



Registered: 04/27/06
Posts: 7,212
Last seen: 6 years, 2 months
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: morrowasted]
#22166430 - 08/30/15 08:26 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Even I don't know which camp I fall into. Before I went to rehab I was 100% certain it wasn't a disease, but I quickly learned that most of what I thought about addiction was false.
I certainly believe it's a disorder somewhat like depression and anxiety, and that people can't simply "snap themselves out of it" any more than they could force themselves to be happy and calm.
I dunno, "chronic, progressive, and fatal"... if that's the only criteria of a disease, I guess it fits. Either way, for me, the debate between whether it's a disease or not is moot, because I am an alcoholic and an addict, and pondering the nature of it won't do me much good. I certainly would like to know, but what's more important to me is staying away from alcohol and hard drugs.
-------------------- My name is Mud
|
morrowasted
Worldwide Stepper



Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 17 hours
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: DragonChaser]
#22166459 - 08/30/15 08:29 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
I dunno, "chronic, progressive, and fatal"... if that's the only criteria of a disease, I guess it fits.
No. Addiction is often called a chronic, progressive, and often fatal disease, but the criteria according to which it is characterized as a disease are a result of the general medical disease model, which I outlined in my first reply:
Quote:
The disease model of medicine posits that there is an organ there is a defect in the organ there is a consistent set of symptoms associated with that defect
In addiction, the organ is said to be the brain. The defect is said to be a certain kind of neural pathology. This pathology involves glutamate pathways projecting from the cortex to the ventral tegmental area, and in active (not clean and sober) cases of addiction, a state of dopaminergic allostasis in the VTA and an excess of dopamine reuptake transporters in the nucleus accumbens. The symptoms associated with this pathology are craving for the drug, environmental triggers to use the drug, and decreased pleasure sensitivity to the drug.
|
Cognitive_Shift
CS actual




Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 29,591
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: morrowasted]
#22166703 - 08/30/15 09:09 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
He has an inhereint bias one way or the other about this subject since he is an addict himself so I take this with a grain of salt. I don't know what addiction is but if I had to guess I would say it probably isn't a disease but then again I also have a bias myself so take that with a grain of salt.
-------------------- L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
|
DragonChaser
Ice in Her Ass and Pussy



Registered: 04/27/06
Posts: 7,212
Last seen: 6 years, 2 months
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: morrowasted]
#22166832 - 08/30/15 09:31 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Derp, I'm sorry Morrow.
You're an alcoholic too, aren't you? I think we've talked before.
-------------------- My name is Mud
|
morrowasted
Worldwide Stepper



Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 17 hours
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: DragonChaser]
#22166904 - 08/30/15 09:49 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Yes, but I'm clean and sober.
|
DragonChaser
Ice in Her Ass and Pussy



Registered: 04/27/06
Posts: 7,212
Last seen: 6 years, 2 months
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: morrowasted]
#22167144 - 08/30/15 11:01 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
I smoke a bit of grass, but that's all, and it's only occasionally (like every coupla weeks).
-------------------- My name is Mud
|
Bitter Cactus
reformed bad boy


Registered: 01/26/12
Posts: 11,773
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: DragonChaser]
#22167453 - 08/31/15 01:43 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Addiciton is not a disease. That is such a cop out and takes away all personal responsability from the addict to get better. Nobody shot you up the first time or made you smoke that crack. I think addiction has to do with whether you are poor or have a lot of friends or simply have the willpower to stop.
Like imagine a smoker saying the only reason he smokes cigs is because disease is an addiction and he can't help himself. Guess what, that person started smoking on their own choice and of course they end up addicted nicotine itself is addictive and even a rat will get hooked on it.
I think saying it is a disease and you have no part in it is such an excuse and a bad way to go about it. Lots of it has to do with whether or not you have a good life in the first place. Imagine if you were taken captive and they hooked you up to a machine shooting you up with heroin for a year then you were flown back home. Imagine you were a millionaire with a huge house and a family and friends. You wouldn't go out to seek more of the heroin you would be like fuck that I have a good life.
-------------------- Taking acid and thinking you are a better man is a lot different then actually becoming a better man.
|
morrowasted
Worldwide Stepper



Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 17 hours
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: Bitter Cactus]
#22167627 - 08/31/15 03:56 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Bitter Cactus said: Addiciton is not a disease. That is such a cop out and takes away all personal responsability from the addict to get better. Nobody shot you up the first time or made you smoke that crack. I think addiction has to do with whether you are poor or have a lot of friends or simply have the willpower to stop.
Like imagine a smoker saying the only reason he smokes cigs is because disease is an addiction and he can't help himself. Guess what, that person started smoking on their own choice and of course they end up addicted nicotine itself is addictive and even a rat will get hooked on it.
I think saying it is a disease and you have no part in it is such an excuse and a bad way to go about it. Lots of it has to do with whether or not you have a good life in the first place. Imagine if you were taken captive and they hooked you up to a machine shooting you up with heroin for a year then you were flown back home. Imagine you were a millionaire with a huge house and a family and friends. You wouldn't go out to seek more of the heroin you would be like fuck that I have a good life.
Watch this documentary.
|
morrowasted
Worldwide Stepper



Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 17 hours
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: morrowasted]
#22169275 - 08/31/15 01:52 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
In the end though most people are just going to believe whatever is easiest and most comfortable for them to believe, as with most things in life. Doing research and coming to carefully discerned conclusions takes too much effort for most people.
|
fapjack
Title



Registered: 07/26/07
Posts: 16,574
Loc: Central New Jersey
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: morrowasted]
#22170127 - 08/31/15 05:18 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
morrowasted said:
Quote:
I dunno, "chronic, progressive, and fatal"... if that's the only criteria of a disease, I guess it fits.
No. Addiction is often called a chronic, progressive, and often fatal disease, but the criteria according to which it is characterized as a disease are a result of the general medical disease model, which I outlined in my first reply:
Quote:
The disease model of medicine posits that there is an organ there is a defect in the organ there is a consistent set of symptoms associated with that defect
In addiction, the organ is said to be the brain. The defect is said to be a certain kind of neural pathology. This pathology involves glutamate pathways projecting from the cortex to the ventral tegmental area, and in active (not clean and sober) cases of addiction, a state of dopaminergic allostasis in the VTA and an excess of dopamine reuptake transporters in the nucleus accumbens. The symptoms associated with this pathology are craving for the drug, environmental triggers to use the drug, and decreased pleasure sensitivity to the drug.
Defect in this instance is entirely subjective. Can the brain and body work perfectly fine with a substance addiction? Does that definition include addiction to certain behaviors? By your definition would someone that is physically dependent on any drug be suffering from a disease?
Addiction isn't a disease. Calling it one is politicizing medicine. It's psychology, not biochemistry. It's a theory without conclusive evidence. The brain functions normal when psychologically addicted to a drug, the problem is behavior so it isn't a neurological disease it would be a behavioral one. It is also a behavioral issue than cures itself for many people as a large % of drug addicts stop at some point without any treatment at all. It's a behavioral issue for people, not the result of a pathology. Smokers and caffeine addicts don't suffer from disease, and when you word it that way your argument looses a lot of credibility.
--------------------
|
Bitter Cactus
reformed bad boy


Registered: 01/26/12
Posts: 11,773
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: fapjack]
#22170166 - 08/31/15 05:25 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Smokers technically are diseased though based on the theory addiction is a disease.
Addiction is not a disease. 
A lot of it has to do with how good of a life you have. If you have a wife, kids, family, a big house, a job ect. you are probably way less likely to get addicted. Even if you tried heroin or someone shot you up against your will you would be like fuck that noise I had other shit going on that is more important.
If you have a poor kid in the slums and all he can do for fun is shoot some meth then he is obviously gonna end up addicted. If he never tried it in the first place he would not be hooked.
Everyone probably has an addict deep down inside them, it all has to do with how good their life is, their impulsiveness, their willpower, their character really.
Didn't a bunch of american soldiers in vietnam get hooked on heroin only to come back home and get sober without much of a problem?
People can stop on their own too. Lots of alcoholics just get fed up with it and give up drinking without needing any rehab or support. I think addiction is a behavior that people need to take responsibility for instead of saying they were born with a disease. Don't shoot up crack if you don't want to be an addict.
I think addiction is really a choice. Unless someone put a gun to your head and made you shoot up heroin the first time you only have yourself to blame. That's how I look at my past addictions and I owned up to it and got over them. Once you get physically hooked on something, anyone in the world can become an addict.
-------------------- Taking acid and thinking you are a better man is a lot different then actually becoming a better man.
Edited by Bitter Cactus (08/31/15 05:27 PM)
|
morrowasted
Worldwide Stepper



Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 17 hours
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: fapjack]
#22170656 - 08/31/15 07:00 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
fapjack said:
Quote:
morrowasted said:
Quote:
I dunno, "chronic, progressive, and fatal"... if that's the only criteria of a disease, I guess it fits.
No. Addiction is often called a chronic, progressive, and often fatal disease, but the criteria according to which it is characterized as a disease are a result of the general medical disease model, which I outlined in my first reply:
Quote:
The disease model of medicine posits that there is an organ there is a defect in the organ there is a consistent set of symptoms associated with that defect
In addiction, the organ is said to be the brain. The defect is said to be a certain kind of neural pathology. This pathology involves glutamate pathways projecting from the cortex to the ventral tegmental area, and in active (not clean and sober) cases of addiction, a state of dopaminergic allostasis in the VTA and an excess of dopamine reuptake transporters in the nucleus accumbens. The symptoms associated with this pathology are craving for the drug, environmental triggers to use the drug, and decreased pleasure sensitivity to the drug.
Defect in this instance is entirely subjective. Can the brain and body work perfectly fine with a substance addiction? Does that definition include addiction to certain behaviors? By your definition would someone that is physically dependent on any drug be suffering from a disease?
Addiction isn't a disease. Calling it one is politicizing medicine. It's psychology, not biochemistry. It's a theory without conclusive evidence. The brain functions normal when psychologically addicted to a drug, the problem is behavior so it isn't a neurological disease it would be a behavioral one. It is also a behavioral issue than cures itself for many people as a large % of drug addicts stop at some point without any treatment at all. It's a behavioral issue for people, not the result of a pathology. Smokers and caffeine addicts don't suffer from disease, and when you word it that way your argument looses a lot of credibility.
First of all, anyone with even a passing acquaintance with neurobiology understands that the distinction between psychological and physical addiction is illusory. It is true that withdrawal from some substances can kill you, but all addictive processes are physical. It is just that for some, the primary manifestation of the addiction is an obsessive pattern of thought and behavior related to the drug.
And no, the brain does not work "perfectly fine" without the drug of choice, because of the aforementioned glutamate pathology between the VTA and the cortex. When you are hungry, for example, your body tells you that you need to eat. This takes place in the limbic system via glutamate pathways specifically associated with food consumption, and when you eat, dopamine is released, which quiets the glutamate pathways. But in an addicted brain, the prime directive is to consume the drug of choice, because the glutmate pathways associated with the consumption of that drug know that using it will release the greatest amount of dopamine. The brain can't tell that the drug is releasing dopamine in a way that doesn't contribute to survival. It "thinks" that the drugs are a survival mechanism. So whenever an addicted person is not on the drug, they are CONSTANTLY obsessing about using it. This is a BIG DEAL and has PHYSICAL CONSEQUENCES even in what YOU would call only PSYCHOLOGICAL addiction: very rapid pulse rate, high blood pressure, sweating, inability to sleep, extreme anxiety, etc. You may have heard some people say that can't sleep without weed. This isn't because weed makes you sleepy; in fact, with most strains of weed, quite the opposite is true. It's because they are addicted to weed.
Characterizing smoking addiction as a disease is absolutely acceptable, in my opinion. Smoking addiction is chronic, progressive, and often fatal. Smokers obsess about the act of smoke, and smoke compulsively, even when they don't want to. Most of them smoke in the morning before they even have breakfast or take a shower. That, my friend, is addiction. It just doesn't seem "that bad" because smoking is legal and smokers don't have to steal and lie to their families and so forth in order to smoke.
Caffeine addiction is tricky. First of all, caffeine has a very unusual mechanism of action that makes the brain's association of caffeine use with the release of dopamine difficult to make. In this way, caffeine is unlikely to result in any significant degree of obsession, in most people. You will, however, notice the effects if you quit drinking it suddenly, and then you will find yourself drinking another cup. This is the definition of compulsive use, and compulsive use is the result of obsessive thought patterns, which are the defining characteristic of a brain that characterized by the disease of addiction. Just some food for thought.
|
morrowasted
Worldwide Stepper



Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 17 hours
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: Bitter Cactus]
#22170749 - 08/31/15 07:16 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Bitter Cactus said: Smokers technically are diseased though based on the theory addiction is a disease.
Addiction is not a disease. 
A lot of it has to do with how good of a life you have. If you have a wife, kids, family, a big house, a job ect. you are probably way less likely to get addicted. Even if you tried heroin or someone shot you up against your will you would be like fuck that noise I had other shit going on that is more important.
If you have a poor kid in the slums and all he can do for fun is shoot some meth then he is obviously gonna end up addicted. If he never tried it in the first place he would not be hooked.
Everyone probably has an addict deep down inside them, it all has to do with how good their life is, their impulsiveness, their willpower, their character really.
Didn't a bunch of american soldiers in vietnam get hooked on heroin only to come back home and get sober without much of a problem?
People can stop on their own too. Lots of alcoholics just get fed up with it and give up drinking without needing any rehab or support. I think addiction is a behavior that people need to take responsibility for instead of saying they were born with a disease. Don't shoot up crack if you don't want to be an addict.
I think addiction is really a choice. Unless someone put a gun to your head and made you shoot up heroin the first time you only have yourself to blame. That's how I look at my past addictions and I owned up to it and got over them. Once you get physically hooked on something, anyone in the world can become an addict.
This is complete and total bullshit. Having been to rehab multiple times, I can tell you that addicts come from all walks of life. There are addicts from the street, yes, but there are also lawyers and city councilmen living the white picket fence lifestyle. Addiction does not discriminate. And yes, many addicts in Vietnam came home and stopped. That was because in Vietnam, heroin was the thing to do, and they were constantly killing people and being shot at. I would do heroin too. When they came home, those with diseased brains who had access to heroin continued to use it. If they didn't, but they had a diseased brain, they used something else. I lived with a man who was a heroin addict in Vietnam recently, and when he came home he didn't have access to heroin, so became an alcoholic and cocaine and later a crack user.
Yes, alcoholics can absolutely stop drinking. But the point is that they stop. People with diseased brains never find a way to moderate their drinking and drugging- it just doesn't work for them. Once they start, they find themselves using as much as they used to.
Nobody puts a gun to anyone's head, but most people don't know they have the propensity to become addicted when they start using drugs, and that is the point. EVERYONE in America uses drugs, except for Mormons and some Muslims, because everyone uses alcohol at some point in their lives. Most people get prescribed painkillers from a doctor. Many people try marijuana- that is what got me started. You can't blame a 15 year old for trying marijuana or alcohol and having a genetic predisposition to become addicted to it but not knowing it. And if you don't believe that such things exist, do some research.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/074183299390054R
http://www.jci.org/articles/view/60390
http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh312/111-118.pdf
|
fapjack
Title



Registered: 07/26/07
Posts: 16,574
Loc: Central New Jersey
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: morrowasted]
#22172696 - 09/01/15 06:52 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
What are the physiological symptoms an addict experiences when they don't get their drug? Are any of these actually harmful? None of them are, and the symptoms are more of an inconvenience than anything. They also subside with secession. It is not a physiological "disorder" even if it has a physiological mechanism (one that has yet to be proven as the cause of addiction). If a heroin addict has a disease, a smoker, gambler, exercise addict, adrenaline addict, and shop-a-holic suffer from the same disease. How do millions of people each year cure themselves of this disease without any treatment? Because it's a behavior not a disease... Mind over matter doesn't cure diseases, it changes behaviors. Also I think caffeine addiction is very similar to nicotine addiction, and I don't think heroin addiction is even comparable. I wasn't addicted to the high, I was addicted to being numb. I don't see how you can lump all drugs addictiveness by one mechanism.
--------------------
|
poke smot!
floccinocci floofinator



Registered: 01/08/03
Posts: 5,248
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease *DELETED* [Re: Bitter Cactus] 1
#22172735 - 09/01/15 07:10 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Post deleted by poke smot!Reason for deletion: x
|
fapjack
Title



Registered: 07/26/07
Posts: 16,574
Loc: Central New Jersey
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: poke smot!]
#22172836 - 09/01/15 07:51 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
12 step programs are horse shit, though they do serve a purpose. It is a religion for drug addicts, and serves the same purpose as any other religion. They can be helpful or harmful depending on who you associate with and how much you really give a shit about staying off of drugs. Some of their doctrine is useful, some is in my opinion counterproductive. I wouldn't suggest it to anyone, and I've been to several hundred meetings. If you are lost, have no structure, no sober friends/family, and no direction it can be a good place to go. I can't even begin to comprehend what it would be like if my parents were dope fiends so obviously my opinion is obviously limited to my own biases.
--------------------
|
morrowasted
Worldwide Stepper



Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 17 hours
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: fapjack]
#22173274 - 09/01/15 09:48 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
fapjack said: What are the physiological symptoms an addict experiences when they don't get their drug? Are any of these actually harmful? None of them are, and the symptoms are more of an inconvenience than anything. They also subside with secession. It is not a physiological "disorder" even if it has a physiological mechanism (one that has yet to be proven as the cause of addiction). If a heroin addict has a disease, a smoker, gambler, exercise addict, adrenaline addict, and shop-a-holic suffer from the same disease. How do millions of people each year cure themselves of this disease without any treatment? Because it's a behavior not a disease... Mind over matter doesn't cure diseases, it changes behaviors. Also I think caffeine addiction is very similar to nicotine addiction, and I don't think heroin addiction is even comparable. I wasn't addicted to the high, I was addicted to being numb. I don't see how you can lump all drugs addictiveness by one mechanism.
You can lump the addictive nature of all drugs by one mechanism because they all work by the same mechanism, the dopaminergic reward circuit between the VTA and the nucleus accumbens.
I just described the physiological symptoms to Bitter Cactus. Read the entire reply I made to him and digest it:
Quote:
First of all, anyone with even a passing acquaintance with neurobiology understands that the distinction between psychological and physical addiction is illusory. It is true that withdrawal from some substances can kill you, but all addictive processes are physical. It is just that for some, the primary manifestation of the addiction is an obsessive pattern of thought and behavior related to the drug.
And no, the brain does not work "perfectly fine" without the drug of choice, because of the aforementioned glutamate pathology between the VTA and the cortex. When you are hungry, for example, your body tells you that you need to eat. This takes place in the limbic system via glutamate pathways specifically associated with food consumption, and when you eat, dopamine is released, which quiets the glutamate pathways. But in an addicted brain, the prime directive is to consume the drug of choice, because the glutmate pathways associated with the consumption of that drug know that using it will release the greatest amount of dopamine. The brain can't tell that the drug is releasing dopamine in a way that doesn't contribute to survival. It "thinks" that the drugs are a survival mechanism. So whenever an addicted person is not on the drug, they are CONSTANTLY obsessing about using it. This is a BIG DEAL and has PHYSICAL CONSEQUENCES even in what YOU would call only PSYCHOLOGICAL addiction: very rapid pulse rate, high blood pressure, sweating, inability to sleep, extreme anxiety, etc. You may have heard some people say that can't sleep without weed. This isn't because weed makes you sleepy; in fact, with most strains of weed, quite the opposite is true. It's because they are addicted to weed.
Characterizing smoking addiction as a disease is absolutely acceptable, in my opinion. Smoking addiction is chronic, progressive, and often fatal. Smokers obsess about the act of smoke, and smoke compulsively, even when they don't want to. Most of them smoke in the morning before they even have breakfast or take a shower. That, my friend, is addiction. It just doesn't seem "that bad" because smoking is legal and smokers don't have to steal and lie to their families and so forth in order to smoke.
Caffeine addiction is tricky. First of all, caffeine has a very unusual mechanism of action that makes the brain's association of caffeine use with the release of dopamine difficult to make. In this way, caffeine is unlikely to result in any significant degree of obsession, in most people. You will, however, notice the effects if you quit drinking it suddenly, and then you will find yourself drinking another cup. This is the definition of compulsive use, and compulsive use is the result of obsessive thought patterns, which are the defining characteristic of a brain that characterized by the disease of addiction. Just some food for thought.
Also, it is not "mind over matter" that cures diseases. It is time and re-association of positive stimuli over matter that allows for recovery from addiction.
If you don't want to think of addiction as a disease, fine, don't. But at least understand that addicts suffer from a certain kind of neural pathology. Read about the neural pathology I have discussed. Of course, meth and heroin addicts have a much worse case of this neural pathology than caffeine addicts and shopaholics. But all of these people are suffering from more or less the same kind of pathology. It is their primitive "lizard" brain overriding their rational "primate/human" brain, dictating their ability to make good/rational decisions. It's really not all that complicated.
|
morrowasted
Worldwide Stepper



Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 17 hours
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: fapjack]
#22173279 - 09/01/15 09:50 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
fapjack said: 12 step programs are horse shit, though they do serve a purpose. It is a religion for drug addicts, and serves the same purpose as any other religion. They can be helpful or harmful depending on who you associate with and how much you really give a shit about staying off of drugs. Some of their doctrine is useful, some is in my opinion counterproductive. I wouldn't suggest it to anyone, and I've been to several hundred meetings. If you are lost, have no structure, no sober friends/family, and no direction it can be a good place to go. I can't even begin to comprehend what it would be like if my parents were dope fiends so obviously my opinion is obviously limited to my own biases.
The primary advantage of 12 step groups is that they teach people to rely on other people for guidance about decision making. I agree with you that they could drop the God stuff and function just as well.
|
morrowasted
Worldwide Stepper



Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 17 hours
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: morrowasted]
#22173293 - 09/01/15 09:54 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Excellent post poke smot!
|
fapjack
Title



Registered: 07/26/07
Posts: 16,574
Loc: Central New Jersey
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: morrowasted]
#22173308 - 09/01/15 09:58 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
I've read up about it, and there isn't a consensus that is how addiction works. It's pointless to argue as I haven't taken biochemistry yet. My knowledge about this is limited to other peoples opinions and my own experience as a heroin addict. I always felt it was a very strong desire, and I always had a choice. It's why and how I stopped using heroin. It was like a really destructive relationship with someone I loved and hated the same time, kind of like an ex-girlfriend more than an uncontrollable urge (pulling hand out of a fire or thirst).
--------------------
|
morrowasted
Worldwide Stepper



Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 17 hours
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: fapjack]
#22173344 - 09/01/15 10:09 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
What do you mean there isn't a consensus about how addiction works?
http://www.asam.org/for-the-public/definition-of-addiction
http://www.health.harvard.edu/newsletter_article/how-addiction-hijacks-the-brain
Quote:
The scientific consensus has changed since then. Today we recognize addiction as a chronic disease that changes both brain structure and function.
|
fapjack
Title



Registered: 07/26/07
Posts: 16,574
Loc: Central New Jersey
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: morrowasted]
#22173364 - 09/01/15 10:14 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Medicine and science aren't the same thing, especially not psychology which is a pseudoscience.
--------------------
|
morrowasted
Worldwide Stepper



Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 17 hours
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: fapjack]
#22173401 - 09/01/15 10:24 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Neuroscience is not psuedoscience.
http://www.jneurosci.org/content/34/16/5529.abstract Cannabis Use Is Quantitatively Associated with Nucleus Accumbens and Amygdala Abnormalities in Young Adult Recreational Users
Quote:
Marijuana is the most commonly used illicit drug in the United States, but little is known about its effects on the human brain, particularly on reward/aversion regions implicated in addiction, such as the nucleus accumbens and amygdala. Animal studies show structural changes in brain regions such as the nucleus accumbens after exposure to Δ9-tetrahydrocannabinol, but less is known about cannabis use and brain morphometry in these regions in humans. We collected high-resolution MRI scans on young adult recreational marijuana users and nonusing controls and conducted three independent analyses of morphometry in these structures: (1) gray matter density using voxel-based morphometry, (2) volume (total brain and regional volumes), and (3) shape (surface morphometry). Gray matter density analyses revealed greater gray matter density in marijuana users than in control participants in the left nucleus accumbens extending to subcallosal cortex, hypothalamus, sublenticular extended amygdala, and left amygdala, even after controlling for age, sex, alcohol use, and cigarette smoking. Trend-level effects were observed for a volume increase in the left nucleus accumbens only. Significant shape differences were detected in the left nucleus accumbens and right amygdala. The left nucleus accumbens showed salient exposure-dependent alterations across all three measures and an altered multimodal relationship across measures in the marijuana group. These data suggest that marijuana exposure, even in young recreational users, is associated with exposure-dependent alterations of the neural matrix of core reward structures and is consistent with animal studies of changes in dendritic arborization.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24082084 Loss of metabotropic glutamate receptor 2 escalates alcohol consumption.
Quote:
Identification of genes influencing complex traits is hampered by genetic heterogeneity, the modest effect size of many alleles, and the likely involvement of rare and uncommon alleles. Etiologic complexity can be simplified in model organisms. By genomic sequencing, linkage analysis, and functional validation, we identified that genetic variation of Grm2, which encodes metabotropic glutamate receptor 2 (mGluR2), alters alcohol preference in animal models. Selectively bred alcohol-preferring (P) rats are homozygous for a Grm2 stop codon (Grm2 *407) that leads to largely uncompensated loss of mGluR2. mGluR2 receptor expression was absent, synaptic glutamate transmission was impaired, and expression of genes involved in synaptic function was altered. Grm2 *407 was linked to increased alcohol consumption and preference in F2 rats generated by intercrossing inbred P and nonpreferring rats. Pharmacologic blockade of mGluR2 escalated alcohol self-administration in Wistar rats, the parental strain of P and nonpreferring rats. The causal role of mGluR2 in altered alcohol preference was further supported by elevated alcohol consumption in Grm2 (-/-) mice. Together, these data point to mGluR2 as an origin of alcohol preference and a potential therapeutic target.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10986361 Changes in hippocampal morphology following chronic treatment with the synthetic cannabinoid WIN 55,212-2.
Quote:
Learning and memory are often correlated with cellular changes within the hippocampus, and drugs or environmental factors which affect learning and memory will thus often induce observable morphological changes in this structure. Like tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) itself, many synthetic cannabinoids such as the CB-1 receptor agonist WIN 55,212-2 will induce learning and memory changes. In the current study, we investigate whether or not these changes could be related to structural changes within the hippocampus. Adult male Sprague-Dawley rats were injected twice daily (12:00 and 0:00 h) subcutaneously with WIN 55,212-2 (2.0 mg/kg) in DMSO or DMSO for 21 days. On day 22, animals were perfused and stained immunochemically for the dendritic marker MAP-2, or with cresyl violet. Morphometric analysis showed dendritic rearrangement with increased staining of MAP-2 in CA3 and the lower blade of the dentate gyrus. However, a loss of staining was observed in CA1. Counting of cresyl violet stained sections showed an apparent increase in granule cell number in the lower blade of the dentate gyrus. This work shows the potential for cannabinoids to influence hippocampal morphology. The pattern of changes may be similar to that seen after ischemic or toxic damage, but may be opposite to changes seen in stress.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23966583 The effects of cocaine self-administration on dendritic spine density in the rat hippocampus are dependent on genetic background.
Quote:
Chronic exposure to cocaine induces modifications to neurons in the brain regions involved in addiction. Hence, we evaluated cocaine-induced changes in the hippocampal CA1 field in Fischer 344 (F344) and Lewis (LEW) rats, 2 strains that have been widely used to study genetic predisposition to drug addiction, by combining intracellular Lucifer yellow injection with confocal microscopy reconstruction of labeled neurons. Specifically, we examined the effects of cocaine self-administration on the structure, size, and branching complexity of the apical dendrites of CA1 pyramidal neurons. In addition, we quantified spine density in the collaterals of the apical dendritic arbors of these neurons. We found differences between these strains in several morphological parameters. For example, CA1 apical dendrites were more branched and complex in LEW than in F344 rats, while the spine density in the collateral dendrites of the apical dendritic arbors was greater in F344 rats. Interestingly, cocaine self-administration in LEW rats augmented the spine density, an effect that was not observed in the F344 strain. These results reveal significant structural differences in CA1 pyramidal cells between these strains and indicate that cocaine self-administration has a distinct effect on neuron morphology in the hippocampus of rats with different genetic backgrounds.
|
fapjack
Title



Registered: 07/26/07
Posts: 16,574
Loc: Central New Jersey
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: morrowasted]
#22173450 - 09/01/15 10:41 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Which one of those studies is about addiction being a disease? I don't understand neurobiochemistry well enough to comprehend any of that. I didn't say all of neuroscience was a pseudoscience either, I said psychology was a pseudoscience. There is a difference. Addiction is an extremely complex phenomenon, I don't believe it's that simple. A problem with the mind doesn't always mean a problem with the brain. Believe what you want, neither one of us is going to change how the other thinks.
--------------------
|
morrowasted
Worldwide Stepper



Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 17 hours
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: fapjack]
#22173477 - 09/01/15 10:50 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
OMG you are hopeless.
http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neuro/neuro01/web2/Quaraishi.html
You are trying to turn this into something it isn't and are trying to find any way to duck and dodge your way out of being shown that you very obviously have no idea no idea what you're talking about- which you've sort of just admitted. If you don't want to understand neuroscience, then you're making a decision not to understand how addiction works. It is that simple. Just leave the understanding to those of us who take these matters seriously.
|
fapjack
Title



Registered: 07/26/07
Posts: 16,574
Loc: Central New Jersey
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: morrowasted]
#22173617 - 09/01/15 11:30 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
You are drawing a conclusion from an observation. Just because something is observed in all addicts doesn't mean it is the cause of addiction. My understanding comes from my own subjective experiences. Addiction isn't a disease, the whole concept is a way to take responsibility away from the user. It's easier to blame something else, and because of how politicized medicine is it isn't hard to fill in the blanks after the fact. Correlation does not imply causation. Just because I don't fully understand the mechanism doesn't mean I didn't experience it, so I think I do have some insight. I also quit using opioids without any therapy. Addiction is hard, but so is living. Calling addiction a disease is such a cop out. Glad it works for you though. I will continue to not do heroin, as it's really not that hard for me. I got myself here because it wasn't a disease, it was a matter of will power.
Also your use of the term "defect" for a certain type of behavior is an opinion. You could use that classification for many other types of behavior, including any mental illness. Is someone that devotes all their time to church because they are afraid of going to hell suffering from a disease? What about someone that is so addicted to money that they horde vast wealth? This is where the politicization of medicine cuts off socially acceptible behavior from mental illness. Being gay should be considered a disease by that definition, though medicine would seem to disagree right now.
--------------------
Edited by fapjack (09/01/15 11:51 AM)
|
Bitter Cactus
reformed bad boy



Registered: 01/26/12
Posts: 11,773
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: fapjack]
#22173731 - 09/01/15 11:55 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Addiction is more a choice then a disease.
-------------------- Taking acid and thinking you are a better man is a lot different then actually becoming a better man.
|
morrowasted
Worldwide Stepper



Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 17 hours
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: fapjack]
#22173870 - 09/01/15 12:41 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
fapjack said: You are drawing a conclusion from an observation.
That is how science works.
Quote:
My understanding comes from my own subjective experiences.
So does everyone's, the only difference is, science involves the subjective experiences of hundreds of thousands of individuals which are in agreement with one another and which build on each other.
Quote:
the whole concept is a way to take responsibility away from the user.
No, classifying addiction as a brain disease is merely a byproduct of the set of diagnostic criteria for diseases in medicine.
Quote:
It's easier to blame something else, and because of how politicized medicine is it isn't hard to fill in the blanks after the fact.
It is actually harder to treat addicts as patients than it is to treat them as criminals.
Quote:
Correlation does not imply causation.
Thanks for that, David Hume. Quote:
I also quit using opioids without any therapy.
No, you quit using opiates without any therapy.
Quote:
Calling addiction a disease is such a cop out.
Now you are just repeating yourself in different ways. Glad it works for you though. Quote:
I will continue to not do heroin, as it's really not that hard for me.
Because you haven't done it in a while and your brain has healed. Quote:
I got myself here because it wasn't a disease, it was a matter of will power.
You don't seem to understand that these things are not mutually exclusive. Just because addiction is a disease does not mean that you can't will your way out of it.
Quote:
Also your use of the term "defect" for a certain type of behavior is an opinion.
Based on mountains of hard evidence. Quote:
You could use that classification for many other types of behavior, including any mental illness.
Only if they were equally well-evidenced. Quote:
Is someone that devotes all their time to church because they are afraid of going to hell suffering from a disease?
I don't know. Why don't you do some goddamn research instead of speculating like a buffoon? Quote:
What about someone that is so addicted to money that they horde vast wealth?
Possibly. Quote:
This is where the politicization of medicine cuts off socially acceptible behavior from mental illness.
Only because they haven't yet chosen to research certain things.
|
morrowasted
Worldwide Stepper



Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 17 hours
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: Bitter Cactus]
#22173877 - 09/01/15 12:42 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Bitter Cactus said: Addiction is more a choice then a disease.
both are true
|
Bitter Cactus
reformed bad boy



Registered: 01/26/12
Posts: 11,773
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: morrowasted]
#22173882 - 09/01/15 12:44 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Addiction is not a disease. Are all smokers diseased?
-------------------- Taking acid and thinking you are a better man is a lot different then actually becoming a better man.
|
morrowasted
Worldwide Stepper



Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 17 hours
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: Bitter Cactus]
#22173901 - 09/01/15 12:50 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Some of them.
|
morrowasted
Worldwide Stepper



Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 17 hours
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: morrowasted]
#22173909 - 09/01/15 12:51 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
You can continue to repeat yourself and make yourself look increasingly stupid if you like, I don't mind.
|
fapjack
Title



Registered: 07/26/07
Posts: 16,574
Loc: Central New Jersey
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: morrowasted]
#22174962 - 09/01/15 05:51 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
It's funny how you said that while replying to yourself. You give one neurological process to describe an extremely complex behavior. Believe what you want. I think the mind is a lot more complex than you do. A disease that is self-curing through will power... Give me a fucking break.
--------------------
Edited by fapjack (09/01/15 05:58 PM)
|
DragonChaser
Ice in Her Ass and Pussy



Registered: 04/27/06
Posts: 7,212
Last seen: 6 years, 2 months
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: morrowasted]
#22175107 - 09/01/15 06:29 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
I don't get why people who have no real personal experience with addiction and recovery will get so vitriolic and militant about addiction not being a disease, and 12 step programs being horse crap. You can tell from their points of view they don't know much about addiction or 12 step programs.
Honestly, reminds me of myself when I was raging, before I went to rehab.
-------------------- My name is Mud
|
fapjack
Title



Registered: 07/26/07
Posts: 16,574
Loc: Central New Jersey
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: DragonChaser]
#22175233 - 09/01/15 06:59 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
I've been addicted to opioids for 6 or 7 years as well as benzos for probably 4 of those years. Been to recovery houses, drug programs, methadone programs, and rehab before. My opinions are from my experience. I never wanted to stop getting high until I really tried, and really gave up my anti-ace in the hole in case everything went to shit. It was hard, but the hardest part in my opinion was the physical dependence. Once the PAWS was over I really didn't think it was all that difficult. Maybe I was self medicating though. To me opioids provided me with a stable environment where I didn't have to worry about problems. I was addicted to indifference and opioids were the perfect drug to provide it. I wanted to be numb, the high was a bonus. I know a lot of other people that were addicted to opioids for the same reason. Seems like the model listed doesn't really account for any other possible reasoning, it really simplifies human behavior.
My opinion about 12 step programs are based on going to hundreds of meetings as I already pointed out. It's useful as group therapy and giving people a sober environment (depending on who you hang out with). The issue I have is that their message is bullshit. It's a cult with positive intentions. Brainwashing people into thinking they are powerless over their addiction without the help of the meetings is counter productive at best. Neither groups nor meetings will get you sober, only you can do that. They may or may not be able to aid you, but not in any major way.
--------------------
Edited by fapjack (09/01/15 07:05 PM)
|
Cognitive_Shift
CS actual




Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 29,591
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: fapjack]
#22176128 - 09/01/15 10:03 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
AA/NA is definitely a quazi-christian sect for drug addicts made as vague as possible so people are more likely to drink the kool-aid. I did the 90 meetings in 90 days, done the 12-step rehab's 30 day ones followed with 90 day outpatient and all that jazz. IMO fapjack hit the nail right on the head with everything he said. The only thing that worked for me was Ibogaine. It's most likely not a disease IMO but the jury is still out until we have conclusive evidence.
-------------------- L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
|
Bitter Cactus
reformed bad boy



Registered: 01/26/12
Posts: 11,773
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
#22176210 - 09/01/15 10:20 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
In my opinion you do have power over your addiction one million percent. You just need to want to stop at all costs.
-------------------- Taking acid and thinking you are a better man is a lot different then actually becoming a better man.
|
Cognitive_Shift
CS actual




Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 29,591
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: Bitter Cactus]
#22176220 - 09/01/15 10:22 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Bitter Cactus said: In my opinion you do have power over your addiction one million percent. You just need to want to stop at all costs.
When you're dope sick it's not as easy as it sounds.
-------------------- L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
|
Bitter Cactus
reformed bad boy



Registered: 01/26/12
Posts: 11,773
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
#22176237 - 09/01/15 10:26 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Cognitive_Shift said:
Quote:
Bitter Cactus said: In my opinion you do have power over your addiction one million percent. You just need to want to stop at all costs.
When you're dope sick it's not as easy as it sounds.
Nobody likes to feel pain.
But still, it always comes down to if you want to stop. If you want to stop you can get the help you need or do it on your own.
Addiction is not a disease. You have the choice to not do that drug every single day. The question is whether you want to or not and what you are willing to sacrifice to achieve your goal.
-------------------- Taking acid and thinking you are a better man is a lot different then actually becoming a better man.
|
Cognitive_Shift
CS actual




Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 29,591
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: Bitter Cactus]
#22176260 - 09/01/15 10:30 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
I don't think it's a disease either, but it's not that simple IMO. That's kind of like telling a depressed person to stop being a pussy and pick yourself up by your bootstraps.
-------------------- L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
|
Bitter Cactus
reformed bad boy



Registered: 01/26/12
Posts: 11,773
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
#22176279 - 09/01/15 10:33 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Is a behavior a disease?
-------------------- Taking acid and thinking you are a better man is a lot different then actually becoming a better man.
|
Cognitive_Shift
CS actual




Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 29,591
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: Bitter Cactus]
#22176289 - 09/01/15 10:34 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
If it's maladaptive yes... no... maybe so??? Idk to be honest.
medical dictionary.com
Quote:
a definite pathological process having a characteristic set of signs and symptoms. It may affect the whole body or any of its parts, and its etiology, pathology, and prognosis may be known or unknown.
-------------------- L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
|
maddad
Stranger

Registered: 11/20/13
Posts: 242
Last seen: 8 years, 3 months
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: dark3st]
#22176314 - 09/01/15 10:40 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
dark3st said:
Quote:
...Treatment depends entirely on who I think they are, and what they are going through.
Sounds like its about the money to him.
Thats laughable, almost as much as people who believe addiction is a disease. People with real diseases don't choose it. Addiction is, at best a personality disorder, but those are bullshit in my mind too. The real money comes from convincing someone they have a disease and need treatment, rehab. Saying that addiction is a disease is a cop out for taking responsibility in your own life and the choices you make. They may be sick and they may be dying, but they made all those choices on their own. They weren't diagnosed with a life threatening illness, they signed up for it.
This whole topic really pisses me off. And the stupid people who buy that bullshit do even more.
-------------------- I live in an aura of hope because I live in a twilight world of my own self-generated, cannabinated fantasy, and I forget that not everyone is so fortunate. - Terence McKenna
|
Bitter Cactus
reformed bad boy



Registered: 01/26/12
Posts: 11,773
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: maddad]
#22176340 - 09/01/15 10:45 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Yep nobody held a gun to your head to try X drug for the first time. After you try an addictive drug all bets are off.
-------------------- Taking acid and thinking you are a better man is a lot different then actually becoming a better man.
|
dark3st
Stranger


Registered: 08/02/13
Posts: 3,332
Last seen: 8 years, 3 months
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: maddad]
#22177176 - 09/02/15 06:52 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
maddad said:
Quote:
dark3st said:
Quote:
...Treatment depends entirely on who I think they are, and what they are going through.
Sounds like its about the money to him.
Thats laughable, almost as much as people who believe addiction is a disease. People with real diseases don't choose it. Addiction is, at best a personality disorder, but those are bullshit in my mind too. The real money comes from convincing someone they have a disease and need treatment, rehab. Saying that addiction is a disease is a cop out for taking responsibility in your own life and the choices you make. They may be sick and they may be dying, but they made all those choices on their own. They weren't diagnosed with a life threatening illness, they signed up for it.
This whole topic really pisses me off. And the stupid people who buy that bullshit do even more.

-------------------- Back.. I'm going to do it...I'm getting sober from opiates ... I got weed, gabapentin, propranolol, and GHB, I have 100mg tramadol left. I can do this. I can do this. OFINTQWGVGAKGCYKBUBX free dark P. Tampanensis prints to ODD members.
no stamps atm FREE SEEDS for ODD WCA members ONLY I have these seeds: Orange, red, and yellow sweet peppers, Purple poppies, White Habanero, Yellow Thai, Bolivian rainbow peppers, milk thistle, red chilly pepper, HBWR.
|
morrowasted
Worldwide Stepper



Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 17 hours
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: Bitter Cactus]
#22177610 - 09/02/15 10:32 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Bitter Cactus said: Yep nobody held a gun to your head to try X drug for the first time. After you try an addictive drug all bets are off.
When you hold a gun to an alcoholic's head, and say, "you can take that drink, but I'll shoot you." They won't drink. This is the #1 argument against addiction being a disease: choices aren't diseases.
But this is because the symptom of addiction is misconstrued as the behavior of drug taking rather than the experience of craving. It doesn't matter if you hold a gun to an alcoholic's head and say, "Don't crave that drink or I'll shoot you." They will still crave that drink. This is because of a diseased brain pathology.
If you don't "get it" by this point, you're simply not going to, because quite frankly, you either just don't want to, or you're too stupid. It is really simple and I have put out mountains of evidence and arguments that anyone with a truly rational mind nearly all of the scientific community agrees with me on. All my opposition has done is regurgitate the same assertions over and over like a babbling brook.
|
fapjack
Title



Registered: 07/26/07
Posts: 16,574
Loc: Central New Jersey
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: morrowasted]
#22178437 - 09/02/15 02:32 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Just because you make a better case than me doesn't mean you are right, it just means you have a better understanding of neurochemistry. I'm taking biochemistry next year and will have a better understanding afterwards. There are people that have studied this subject better than either of us that disagree with your point,
--------------------
|
dark3st
Stranger


Registered: 08/02/13
Posts: 3,332
Last seen: 8 years, 3 months
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: fapjack]
#22181925 - 09/03/15 07:30 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
fapjack said: Just because you make a better case than me doesn't mean you are right, it just means you have a better understanding of neurochemistry
so you admit you have very little of a case, and understanding of something fundamentally important to this discussion. 
-------------------- Back.. I'm going to do it...I'm getting sober from opiates ... I got weed, gabapentin, propranolol, and GHB, I have 100mg tramadol left. I can do this. I can do this. OFINTQWGVGAKGCYKBUBX free dark P. Tampanensis prints to ODD members.
no stamps atm FREE SEEDS for ODD WCA members ONLY I have these seeds: Orange, red, and yellow sweet peppers, Purple poppies, White Habanero, Yellow Thai, Bolivian rainbow peppers, milk thistle, red chilly pepper, HBWR.
|
morrowasted
Worldwide Stepper



Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 17 hours
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: dark3st]
#22182363 - 09/03/15 10:18 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
basically what he is saying is, "I don't know what I am talking about, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong."
|
Cognitive_Shift
CS actual




Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 29,591
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: morrowasted]
#22182537 - 09/03/15 11:09 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
No he's saying "I don't know as much about this subject as you, but it doesn't mean i'm wrong."
This is such a tricky question i'm not sure anyone is "right." There are just competing theories at this point IMO.
-------------------- L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
|
Jokeshopbeard
Humble Student

Registered: 11/30/11
Posts: 26,088
Loc: Deep in the system
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: fapjack]
#22183638 - 09/03/15 03:59 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
fapjack said:I was addicted to indifference and opioids were the perfect drug to provide it. I wanted to be numb, the high was a bonus. I know a lot of other people that were addicted to opioids for the same reason.
This was my experience too. Life was hard as fuck at the time and I just wanted to numb the pain. I sure as shit developed a physical dependency but, IMO, in no way was I diseased - this was proven by just how easily I quit once I realised that it was fucking my life up entirely and determined that it was time to stop.
I buy both sides of the argument myself. I can see what the science points out and I'm sure it has merit. I just don't think it's fair to call it a disease when most people who catch diseases do so entirely nonconsensually.
It's probably more a case of semantics than anything else, but I very much disagree with labelling addicts as diseased.
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
|
fapjack
Title



Registered: 07/26/07
Posts: 16,574
Loc: Central New Jersey
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: morrowasted]
#22185316 - 09/03/15 09:34 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
morrowasted said: basically what he is saying is, "I don't know what I am talking about, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong."
Says the person that believes drug addiction is a disease... Probably convenient way for you to keep yourself clean because your too weak of a person to accept all the fucked up shit you did.
--------------------
Edited by fapjack (09/03/15 09:43 PM)
|
dark3st
Stranger


Registered: 08/02/13
Posts: 3,332
Last seen: 8 years, 3 months
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: fapjack]
#22186775 - 09/04/15 08:05 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
fapjack said:
Quote:
morrowasted said: basically what he is saying is, "I don't know what I am talking about, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong."
Says the person that believes drug addiction is a disease... Probably convenient way for you to keep yourself clean because your too weak of a person to accept all the fucked up shit you did.
Now to the insults, you just lost the argument...
-------------------- Back.. I'm going to do it...I'm getting sober from opiates ... I got weed, gabapentin, propranolol, and GHB, I have 100mg tramadol left. I can do this. I can do this. OFINTQWGVGAKGCYKBUBX free dark P. Tampanensis prints to ODD members.
no stamps atm FREE SEEDS for ODD WCA members ONLY I have these seeds: Orange, red, and yellow sweet peppers, Purple poppies, White Habanero, Yellow Thai, Bolivian rainbow peppers, milk thistle, red chilly pepper, HBWR.
|
KrishnaDreamer
I bleed nicotine...


Registered: 09/23/07
Posts: 4,132
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: dark3st]
#22192554 - 09/05/15 12:49 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
It's all semantics dude, whether you call it a disease, a disorder, a pathology, et etc. it's all the same thing.
Personally I think it's a behavioral disorder like OCD, first as habitual use, and then becoming compulsive.
-------------------- Everybody's a ninja...
|
Psilosopherr
A psilly goose



Registered: 02/15/12
Posts: 12,278
Last seen: 1 month, 10 days
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: KrishnaDreamer]
#22194334 - 09/05/15 08:08 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
KrishnaDreamer said: It's all semantics dude, whether you call it a disease, a disorder, a pathology, et etc. it's all the same thing.
Personally I think it's a behavioral disorder like OCD, first as habitual use, and then becoming compulsive.

semantics.
|
dark3st
Stranger


Registered: 08/02/13
Posts: 3,332
Last seen: 8 years, 3 months
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: Psilosopherr]
#22194517 - 09/05/15 08:52 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
KrishnaDreamer said: It's all semantics dude, whether you call it a disease, a disorder, a pathology, et etc. it's all the same thing.
Personally I think it's a behavioral disorder like OCD, first as habitual use, and then becoming compulsive.
Quote:
rbalzer said:
Quote:
KrishnaDreamer said: It's all semantics dude, whether you call it a disease, a disorder, a pathology, et etc. it's all the same thing.
Personally I think it's a behavioral disorder like OCD, first as habitual use, and then becoming compulsive.

semantics.
-------------------- Back.. I'm going to do it...I'm getting sober from opiates ... I got weed, gabapentin, propranolol, and GHB, I have 100mg tramadol left. I can do this. I can do this. OFINTQWGVGAKGCYKBUBX free dark P. Tampanensis prints to ODD members.
no stamps atm FREE SEEDS for ODD WCA members ONLY I have these seeds: Orange, red, and yellow sweet peppers, Purple poppies, White Habanero, Yellow Thai, Bolivian rainbow peppers, milk thistle, red chilly pepper, HBWR.
|
morrowasted
Worldwide Stepper



Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 17 hours
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: KrishnaDreamer]
#22197622 - 09/06/15 03:05 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
KrishnaDreamer said: It's all semantics dude, whether you call it a disease, a disorder, a pathology, et etc. it's all the same thing.
Personally I think it's a behavioral disorder like OCD, first as habitual use, and then becoming compulsive.
Which is exactly what I said in my first reply.
Quote:
Disease is just a word.
The disease model of medicine posits that there is an organ there is a defect in the organ there is a consistent set of symptoms associated with that defect
In addiction, the organ is said to be the brain. The defect is said to be a certain kind of neural pathology. This pathology involves glutamate pathways projecting from the cortex to the ventral tegmental area, and in active (not clean and sober) cases of addiction, a state of dopaminergic allostasis in the VTA and an excess of dopamine reuptake transporters in the nucleus accumbens. The symptoms associated with this pathology are craving for the drug, environmental triggers to use the drug, and decreased pleasure sensitivity to the drug.
The pathology is not a matter of debate. Rats with the genetic potential to exhibit this pathology have been used in laboratory experiments involving addiction for over three decades. So the argument boils down to whether or not you want to call this brain pathology a "defect". If we do, then it is appropriate to characterize addiction as a brain disease. The following advantages result from considering addiction to be a brain disease: addicts are more likely to realize that relapse can be a fatal mistake addicts are treated as patients rather than problems brain research on addiction is more likely to be funded pharmacological solutions to addiction have a sensible foundation
|
dark3st
Stranger


Registered: 08/02/13
Posts: 3,332
Last seen: 8 years, 3 months
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: fapjack]
#22199947 - 09/06/15 10:36 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
fapjack said:
Quote:
morrowasted said:
Quote:
I dunno, "chronic, progressive, and fatal"... if that's the only criteria of a disease, I guess it fits.
No. Addiction is often called a chronic, progressive, and often fatal disease, but the criteria according to which it is characterized as a disease are a result of the general medical disease model, which I outlined in my first reply:
Quote:
The disease model of medicine posits that there is an organ there is a defect in the organ there is a consistent set of symptoms associated with that defect
In addiction, the organ is said to be the brain. The defect is said to be a certain kind of neural pathology. This pathology involves glutamate pathways projecting from the cortex to the ventral tegmental area, and in active (not clean and sober) cases of addiction, a state of dopaminergic allostasis in the VTA and an excess of dopamine reuptake transporters in the nucleus accumbens. The symptoms associated with this pathology are craving for the drug, environmental triggers to use the drug, and decreased pleasure sensitivity to the drug.
Defect in this instance is entirely subjective. Can the brain and body work perfectly fine with a substance addiction? Does that definition include addiction to certain behaviors? By your definition would someone that is physically dependent on any drug be suffering from a disease?
Addiction isn't a disease. Calling it one is politicizing medicine. It's psychology, not biochemistry. It's a theory without conclusive evidence. The brain functions normal when psychologically addicted to a drug, the problem is behavior so it isn't a neurological disease it would be a behavioral one. It is also a behavioral issue than cures itself for many people as a large % of drug addicts stop at some point without any treatment at all. It's a behavioral issue for people, not the result of a pathology. Smokers and caffeine addicts don't suffer from disease, and when you word it that way your argument looses a lot of credibility.
do a little reading.
-------------------- Back.. I'm going to do it...I'm getting sober from opiates ... I got weed, gabapentin, propranolol, and GHB, I have 100mg tramadol left. I can do this. I can do this. OFINTQWGVGAKGCYKBUBX free dark P. Tampanensis prints to ODD members.
no stamps atm FREE SEEDS for ODD WCA members ONLY I have these seeds: Orange, red, and yellow sweet peppers, Purple poppies, White Habanero, Yellow Thai, Bolivian rainbow peppers, milk thistle, red chilly pepper, HBWR.
|
poke smot!
floccinocci floofinator



Registered: 01/08/03
Posts: 5,248
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease *DELETED* [Re: fapjack]
#22200733 - 09/07/15 06:49 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Post deleted by poke smot!Reason for deletion: x
|
fapjack
Title



Registered: 07/26/07
Posts: 16,574
Loc: Central New Jersey
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: poke smot!]
#22205800 - 09/08/15 05:49 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Group therapy can be helpful whether it is a 12 step program, SMART, or RR. Any benefit you get from 12 step programs would work the same if not better without the dogma. I know a lot of exheroin addicts that still do other drugs without any issues from them. The whole concept that addiction to X dictates that you will also have a problem with Y really doesn't make any sense. Some people seem to go over the deep end if they are doing anything, but it certainly doesn't apply to everyone. Telling people that them using marijuana is as bad as them shooting heroin as a relapse might just end up being a self fulfilling prophecy.
--------------------
|
Psilosopherr
A psilly goose



Registered: 02/15/12
Posts: 12,278
Last seen: 1 month, 10 days
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: fapjack]
#22206583 - 09/08/15 10:37 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Would work the same if not better without the dogma. That's a really good way of summing of AA/NA. Especially when you know some of their history. 12 steps worked, no one really knew why, but lets keep the ball rolling.
I am one of such people who quit heroin and still does other stuff. What you say is true.
|
poke smot!
floccinocci floofinator



Registered: 01/08/03
Posts: 5,248
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease *DELETED* [Re: fapjack]
#22207510 - 09/08/15 02:05 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Post deleted by poke smot!Reason for deletion: x
|
fapjack
Title



Registered: 07/26/07
Posts: 16,574
Loc: Central New Jersey
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: poke smot!]
#22212488 - 09/09/15 02:26 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
I stopped using all mind altering substances except caffeine to aid me in getting my shit together as well. Haven't done to a 12 step meeting, but see the benefit of being sober. It's nice being stable.
--------------------
|
dark3st
Stranger


Registered: 08/02/13
Posts: 3,332
Last seen: 8 years, 3 months
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: fapjack]
#22212664 - 09/09/15 03:05 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
fapjack said: I stopped using all mind altering substances except caffeine to aid me in getting my shit together as well. Haven't done to a 12 step meeting, but see the benefit of being sober. It's nice being stable.
But your still an addict
-------------------- Back.. I'm going to do it...I'm getting sober from opiates ... I got weed, gabapentin, propranolol, and GHB, I have 100mg tramadol left. I can do this. I can do this. OFINTQWGVGAKGCYKBUBX free dark P. Tampanensis prints to ODD members.
no stamps atm FREE SEEDS for ODD WCA members ONLY I have these seeds: Orange, red, and yellow sweet peppers, Purple poppies, White Habanero, Yellow Thai, Bolivian rainbow peppers, milk thistle, red chilly pepper, HBWR.
|
fapjack
Title



Registered: 07/26/07
Posts: 16,574
Loc: Central New Jersey
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: dark3st]
#22213701 - 09/09/15 06:37 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
you're
--------------------
|
dark3st
Stranger


Registered: 08/02/13
Posts: 3,332
Last seen: 8 years, 3 months
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: fapjack]
#22215684 - 09/10/15 07:01 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
i forgotten your above everyone. Its fuckin punctuation, but you knowing what it meant without the "'re" means you have to be right even when your in the wrong.
(ya I didn't fix the punctuation because its not fuckin school.)
-------------------- Back.. I'm going to do it...I'm getting sober from opiates ... I got weed, gabapentin, propranolol, and GHB, I have 100mg tramadol left. I can do this. I can do this. OFINTQWGVGAKGCYKBUBX free dark P. Tampanensis prints to ODD members.
no stamps atm FREE SEEDS for ODD WCA members ONLY I have these seeds: Orange, red, and yellow sweet peppers, Purple poppies, White Habanero, Yellow Thai, Bolivian rainbow peppers, milk thistle, red chilly pepper, HBWR.
|
Cognitive_Shift
CS actual




Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 29,591
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: dark3st]
#22216018 - 09/10/15 09:03 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Why do you give a shit if he's not on your ideological team? His shit is together and that's really all that matters.
-------------------- L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
|
Psilosopherr
A psilly goose



Registered: 02/15/12
Posts: 12,278
Last seen: 1 month, 10 days
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
#22216037 - 09/10/15 09:11 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
mental note: correcting dark3st's grammar is good fun
|
fapjack
Title



Registered: 07/26/07
Posts: 16,574
Loc: Central New Jersey
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
|
Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: dark3st]
#22217196 - 09/10/15 02:42 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
dark3st said:
,i've forgotten you're above everyone. It's fucking punctuation. You knowing what it meant without the "'re" means you have to be right even when you're in the wrong.
(ya I didn't fix the punctuation because we are not in fucking school.
--------------------
|
|