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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: fapjack]
    #22183638 - 09/03/15 03:59 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

fapjack said:I was addicted to indifference and opioids were the perfect drug to provide it.  I wanted to be numb, the high was a bonus. I know a lot of other people that were addicted to opioids for the same reason.



This was my experience too. Life was hard as fuck at the time and I just wanted to numb the pain. I sure as shit developed a physical dependency but, IMO, in no way was I diseased - this was proven by just how easily I quit once I realised that it was fucking my life up entirely and determined that it was time to stop.

I buy both sides of the argument myself. I can see what the science points out and I'm sure it has merit. I just don't think it's fair to call it a disease when most people who catch diseases do so entirely nonconsensually.

It's probably more a case of semantics than anything else, but I very much disagree with labelling addicts as diseased.


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Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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Offlinefapjack
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Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: morrowasted]
    #22185316 - 09/03/15 09:34 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
basically what he is saying is, "I don't know what I am talking about, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong."




Says the person that believes drug addiction is a disease...  Probably convenient way for you to keep yourself clean because your too weak of a person to accept all the fucked up shit you did.


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Edited by fapjack (09/03/15 09:43 PM)


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Offlinedark3st
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Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: fapjack]
    #22186775 - 09/04/15 08:05 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

fapjack said:
Quote:

morrowasted said:
basically what he is saying is, "I don't know what I am talking about, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong."




Says the person that believes drug addiction is a disease...  Probably convenient way for you to keep yourself clean because your too weak of a person to accept all the fucked up shit you did.



Now to the insults, you just lost the argument...:haha:


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Back.. I'm going to do it...I'm getting sober from opiates ... I got weed, gabapentin, propranolol, and GHB, I have 100mg tramadol left. I can do this. I can do this.

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InvisibleKrishnaDreamer
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Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: dark3st]
    #22192554 - 09/05/15 12:49 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

It's all semantics dude, whether you call it a disease, a disorder, a pathology, et etc. it's all the same thing.

Personally I think it's a behavioral disorder like OCD, first as habitual use, and then becoming compulsive.


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Everybody's a ninja...


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OfflinePsilosopherr
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Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: KrishnaDreamer]
    #22194334 - 09/05/15 08:08 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

KrishnaDreamer said:
It's all semantics dude, whether you call it a disease, a disorder, a pathology, et etc. it's all the same thing.

Personally I think it's a behavioral disorder like OCD, first as habitual use, and then becoming compulsive.



:whathesaid:

semantics.


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Offlinedark3st
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Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: Psilosopherr]
    #22194517 - 09/05/15 08:52 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

KrishnaDreamer said:
It's all semantics dude, whether you call it a disease, a disorder, a pathology, et etc. it's all the same thing.

Personally I think it's a behavioral disorder like OCD, first as habitual use, and then becoming compulsive.



Quote:

rbalzer said:
Quote:

KrishnaDreamer said:
It's all semantics dude, whether you call it a disease, a disorder, a pathology, et etc. it's all the same thing.

Personally I think it's a behavioral disorder like OCD, first as habitual use, and then becoming compulsive.



:whathesaid:

semantics.



:spun:


--------------------
Back.. I'm going to do it...I'm getting sober from opiates ... I got weed, gabapentin, propranolol, and GHB, I have 100mg tramadol left. I can do this. I can do this.

OFINTQWGVGAKGCYKBUBX
free dark P. Tampanensis prints to ODD members.

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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: KrishnaDreamer]
    #22197622 - 09/06/15 03:05 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

KrishnaDreamer said:
It's all semantics dude, whether you call it a disease, a disorder, a pathology, et etc. it's all the same thing.

Personally I think it's a behavioral disorder like OCD, first as habitual use, and then becoming compulsive.



Which is exactly what I said in my first reply.

Quote:

Disease is just a word.

The disease model of medicine posits that
there is an organ
there is a defect in the organ
there is a consistent set of symptoms associated with that defect


In addiction, the organ is said to be the brain. The defect is said to be a certain kind of neural pathology. This pathology involves glutamate pathways projecting from the cortex to the ventral tegmental area, and in active (not clean and sober) cases of addiction, a state of dopaminergic allostasis in the VTA and an excess of dopamine reuptake transporters in the nucleus accumbens. The symptoms associated with this pathology are craving for the drug, environmental triggers to use the drug, and decreased pleasure sensitivity to the drug.


The pathology is not a matter of debate. Rats with the genetic potential to exhibit this pathology have been used in laboratory experiments involving addiction for over three decades. So the argument boils down to whether or not  you want to call this brain pathology a "defect". If we do, then it is appropriate to characterize addiction as a brain disease. The following advantages result from considering addiction to be a brain disease:
addicts are more likely to realize that relapse can be a fatal mistake
addicts are treated as patients rather than problems
brain research on addiction is more likely to be funded
pharmacological solutions to addiction have a sensible foundation




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Offlinedark3st
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Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: fapjack]
    #22199947 - 09/06/15 10:36 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

fapjack said:
Quote:

morrowasted said:
Quote:

I dunno, "chronic, progressive, and fatal"... if that's the only criteria of a disease, I guess it fits.


No. Addiction is often called a chronic, progressive, and often fatal disease, but the criteria according to which it is characterized as a disease are a result of the general medical disease model, which I outlined in my first reply:

Quote:


The disease model of medicine posits that
there is an organ
there is a defect in the organ
there is a consistent set of symptoms associated with that defect


In addiction, the organ is said to be the brain. The defect is said to be a certain kind of neural pathology. This pathology involves glutamate pathways projecting from the cortex to the ventral tegmental area, and in active (not clean and sober) cases of addiction, a state of dopaminergic allostasis in the VTA and an excess of dopamine reuptake transporters in the nucleus accumbens. The symptoms associated with this pathology are craving for the drug, environmental triggers to use the drug, and decreased pleasure sensitivity to the drug.









Defect in this instance is entirely subjective.  Can the brain and body work perfectly fine with a substance addiction?  Does that definition include addiction to certain behaviors?  By your definition would someone that is physically dependent on any drug be suffering from a disease?

Addiction isn't a disease.  Calling it one is politicizing medicine.  It's psychology, not biochemistry. It's a theory without conclusive evidence.  The brain functions normal when psychologically addicted to a drug, the problem is behavior so it isn't a neurological disease it would be a behavioral one.  It is also a behavioral issue than cures itself for many people as a large % of drug addicts stop at some point without any treatment at all.  It's a behavioral issue for people, not the result of a pathology.  Smokers and caffeine addicts don't suffer from disease, and when you word it that way your argument looses a lot of credibility.



:facepalm: do a little reading.


--------------------
Back.. I'm going to do it...I'm getting sober from opiates ... I got weed, gabapentin, propranolol, and GHB, I have 100mg tramadol left. I can do this. I can do this.

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I have these seeds:
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Invisiblepoke smot!
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Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease *DELETED* [Re: fapjack]
    #22200733 - 09/07/15 06:49 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Post deleted by poke smot!

Reason for deletion: x



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Offlinefapjack
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Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: poke smot!]
    #22205800 - 09/08/15 05:49 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Group therapy can be helpful whether it is a 12 step program, SMART, or RR.  Any benefit you get from 12 step programs would work the same if not better without the dogma.  I know a lot of exheroin addicts that still do other drugs without any issues from them.  The whole concept that addiction to X dictates that you will also have a problem with Y really doesn't make any sense.  Some people seem to go over the deep end if they are doing anything, but it certainly doesn't apply to everyone.  Telling people that them using marijuana is as bad as them shooting heroin as a relapse might just end up being a self fulfilling prophecy.


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OfflinePsilosopherr
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Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: fapjack]
    #22206583 - 09/08/15 10:37 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Would work the same if not better without the dogma. That's a really good way of summing of AA/NA. Especially when you know some of their history. 12 steps worked, no one really knew why, but lets keep the ball rolling.

I am one of such people who quit heroin and still does other stuff. What you say is true.


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Invisiblepoke smot!
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Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease *DELETED* [Re: fapjack]
    #22207510 - 09/08/15 02:05 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Post deleted by poke smot!

Reason for deletion: x



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Offlinefapjack
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Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: poke smot!]
    #22212488 - 09/09/15 02:26 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

I stopped using all mind altering substances except caffeine to aid me in getting my shit together as well.  Haven't done to a 12 step meeting, but see the benefit of being sober. It's nice being stable.


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Offlinedark3st
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Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: fapjack]
    #22212664 - 09/09/15 03:05 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

fapjack said:
I stopped using all mind altering substances except caffeine to aid me in getting my shit together as well.  Haven't done to a 12 step meeting, but see the benefit of being sober. It's nice being stable.



But your still an addict


--------------------
Back.. I'm going to do it...I'm getting sober from opiates ... I got weed, gabapentin, propranolol, and GHB, I have 100mg tramadol left. I can do this. I can do this.

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free dark P. Tampanensis prints to ODD members.

no stamps atm

FREE SEEDS for ODD WCA  members ONLY

I have these seeds:
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Offlinefapjack
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Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: dark3st]
    #22213701 - 09/09/15 06:37 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

you're


--------------------


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Offlinedark3st
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Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: fapjack]
    #22215684 - 09/10/15 07:01 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

:brilliant:i forgotten your above everyone. Its fuckin punctuation, but you knowing what it meant without the "'re" means you have to be right even when your in the wrong.

(ya I didn't fix the punctuation because its not fuckin school.)


--------------------
Back.. I'm going to do it...I'm getting sober from opiates ... I got weed, gabapentin, propranolol, and GHB, I have 100mg tramadol left. I can do this. I can do this.

OFINTQWGVGAKGCYKBUBX
free dark P. Tampanensis prints to ODD members.

no stamps atm

FREE SEEDS for ODD WCA  members ONLY

I have these seeds:
Orange, red, and yellow sweet peppers, Purple poppies, White Habanero, Yellow Thai, Bolivian rainbow peppers, milk thistle, red chilly pepper, HBWR.


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InvisibleCognitive_Shift
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Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: dark3st]
    #22216018 - 09/10/15 09:03 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Why do you give a shit if he's not on your ideological team?  His shit is together and that's really all that matters.


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L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs


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OfflinePsilosopherr
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Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #22216037 - 09/10/15 09:11 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

mental note: correcting dark3st's grammar is good fun


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Offlinefapjack
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Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: dark3st]
    #22217196 - 09/10/15 02:42 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

dark3st said:
:brilliant:,i've forgotten you're above everyone. It's fucking punctuation. You knowing what it meant without the "'re" means you have to be right even when you're in the wrong.

(ya I didn't fix the punctuation because we are not in fucking school.




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