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morrowasted
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Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: Bitter Cactus]
#22173901 - 09/01/15 12:50 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Some of them.
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morrowasted
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Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: morrowasted]
#22173909 - 09/01/15 12:51 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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You can continue to repeat yourself and make yourself look increasingly stupid if you like, I don't mind.
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fapjack
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Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: morrowasted]
#22174962 - 09/01/15 05:51 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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It's funny how you said that while replying to yourself. You give one neurological process to describe an extremely complex behavior. Believe what you want. I think the mind is a lot more complex than you do. A disease that is self-curing through will power... Give me a fucking break.
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Edited by fapjack (09/01/15 05:58 PM)
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DragonChaser
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Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: morrowasted]
#22175107 - 09/01/15 06:29 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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I don't get why people who have no real personal experience with addiction and recovery will get so vitriolic and militant about addiction not being a disease, and 12 step programs being horse crap. You can tell from their points of view they don't know much about addiction or 12 step programs.
Honestly, reminds me of myself when I was raging, before I went to rehab.
-------------------- My name is Mud
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fapjack
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Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: DragonChaser]
#22175233 - 09/01/15 06:59 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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I've been addicted to opioids for 6 or 7 years as well as benzos for probably 4 of those years. Been to recovery houses, drug programs, methadone programs, and rehab before. My opinions are from my experience. I never wanted to stop getting high until I really tried, and really gave up my anti-ace in the hole in case everything went to shit. It was hard, but the hardest part in my opinion was the physical dependence. Once the PAWS was over I really didn't think it was all that difficult. Maybe I was self medicating though. To me opioids provided me with a stable environment where I didn't have to worry about problems. I was addicted to indifference and opioids were the perfect drug to provide it. I wanted to be numb, the high was a bonus. I know a lot of other people that were addicted to opioids for the same reason. Seems like the model listed doesn't really account for any other possible reasoning, it really simplifies human behavior.
My opinion about 12 step programs are based on going to hundreds of meetings as I already pointed out. It's useful as group therapy and giving people a sober environment (depending on who you hang out with). The issue I have is that their message is bullshit. It's a cult with positive intentions. Brainwashing people into thinking they are powerless over their addiction without the help of the meetings is counter productive at best. Neither groups nor meetings will get you sober, only you can do that. They may or may not be able to aid you, but not in any major way.
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Edited by fapjack (09/01/15 07:05 PM)
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Cognitive_Shift
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Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: fapjack]
#22176128 - 09/01/15 10:03 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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AA/NA is definitely a quazi-christian sect for drug addicts made as vague as possible so people are more likely to drink the kool-aid. I did the 90 meetings in 90 days, done the 12-step rehab's 30 day ones followed with 90 day outpatient and all that jazz. IMO fapjack hit the nail right on the head with everything he said. The only thing that worked for me was Ibogaine. It's most likely not a disease IMO but the jury is still out until we have conclusive evidence.
-------------------- L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
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Bitter Cactus
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Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
#22176210 - 09/01/15 10:20 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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In my opinion you do have power over your addiction one million percent. You just need to want to stop at all costs.
-------------------- Taking acid and thinking you are a better man is a lot different then actually becoming a better man.
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Cognitive_Shift
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Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: Bitter Cactus]
#22176220 - 09/01/15 10:22 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Bitter Cactus said: In my opinion you do have power over your addiction one million percent. You just need to want to stop at all costs.
When you're dope sick it's not as easy as it sounds.
-------------------- L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
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Bitter Cactus
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Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
#22176237 - 09/01/15 10:26 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cognitive_Shift said:
Quote:
Bitter Cactus said: In my opinion you do have power over your addiction one million percent. You just need to want to stop at all costs.
When you're dope sick it's not as easy as it sounds.
Nobody likes to feel pain.
But still, it always comes down to if you want to stop. If you want to stop you can get the help you need or do it on your own.
Addiction is not a disease. You have the choice to not do that drug every single day. The question is whether you want to or not and what you are willing to sacrifice to achieve your goal.
-------------------- Taking acid and thinking you are a better man is a lot different then actually becoming a better man.
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Cognitive_Shift
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Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: Bitter Cactus]
#22176260 - 09/01/15 10:30 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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I don't think it's a disease either, but it's not that simple IMO. That's kind of like telling a depressed person to stop being a pussy and pick yourself up by your bootstraps.
-------------------- L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
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Bitter Cactus
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Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
#22176279 - 09/01/15 10:33 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Is a behavior a disease?
-------------------- Taking acid and thinking you are a better man is a lot different then actually becoming a better man.
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Cognitive_Shift
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Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: Bitter Cactus]
#22176289 - 09/01/15 10:34 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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If it's maladaptive yes... no... maybe so??? Idk to be honest.
medical dictionary.com
Quote:
a definite pathological process having a characteristic set of signs and symptoms. It may affect the whole body or any of its parts, and its etiology, pathology, and prognosis may be known or unknown.
-------------------- L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
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maddad
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Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: dark3st]
#22176314 - 09/01/15 10:40 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
dark3st said:
Quote:
...Treatment depends entirely on who I think they are, and what they are going through.
Sounds like its about the money to him.
Thats laughable, almost as much as people who believe addiction is a disease. People with real diseases don't choose it. Addiction is, at best a personality disorder, but those are bullshit in my mind too. The real money comes from convincing someone they have a disease and need treatment, rehab. Saying that addiction is a disease is a cop out for taking responsibility in your own life and the choices you make. They may be sick and they may be dying, but they made all those choices on their own. They weren't diagnosed with a life threatening illness, they signed up for it.
This whole topic really pisses me off. And the stupid people who buy that bullshit do even more.
-------------------- I live in an aura of hope because I live in a twilight world of my own self-generated, cannabinated fantasy, and I forget that not everyone is so fortunate. - Terence McKenna
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Bitter Cactus
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Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: maddad]
#22176340 - 09/01/15 10:45 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yep nobody held a gun to your head to try X drug for the first time. After you try an addictive drug all bets are off.
-------------------- Taking acid and thinking you are a better man is a lot different then actually becoming a better man.
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dark3st
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Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: maddad]
#22177176 - 09/02/15 06:52 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
maddad said:
Quote:
dark3st said:
Quote:
...Treatment depends entirely on who I think they are, and what they are going through.
Sounds like its about the money to him.
Thats laughable, almost as much as people who believe addiction is a disease. People with real diseases don't choose it. Addiction is, at best a personality disorder, but those are bullshit in my mind too. The real money comes from convincing someone they have a disease and need treatment, rehab. Saying that addiction is a disease is a cop out for taking responsibility in your own life and the choices you make. They may be sick and they may be dying, but they made all those choices on their own. They weren't diagnosed with a life threatening illness, they signed up for it.
This whole topic really pisses me off. And the stupid people who buy that bullshit do even more.

-------------------- Back.. I'm going to do it...I'm getting sober from opiates ... I got weed, gabapentin, propranolol, and GHB, I have 100mg tramadol left. I can do this. I can do this. OFINTQWGVGAKGCYKBUBX free dark P. Tampanensis prints to ODD members.
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morrowasted
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Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: Bitter Cactus]
#22177610 - 09/02/15 10:32 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Bitter Cactus said: Yep nobody held a gun to your head to try X drug for the first time. After you try an addictive drug all bets are off.
When you hold a gun to an alcoholic's head, and say, "you can take that drink, but I'll shoot you." They won't drink. This is the #1 argument against addiction being a disease: choices aren't diseases.
But this is because the symptom of addiction is misconstrued as the behavior of drug taking rather than the experience of craving. It doesn't matter if you hold a gun to an alcoholic's head and say, "Don't crave that drink or I'll shoot you." They will still crave that drink. This is because of a diseased brain pathology.
If you don't "get it" by this point, you're simply not going to, because quite frankly, you either just don't want to, or you're too stupid. It is really simple and I have put out mountains of evidence and arguments that anyone with a truly rational mind nearly all of the scientific community agrees with me on. All my opposition has done is regurgitate the same assertions over and over like a babbling brook.
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fapjack
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Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: morrowasted]
#22178437 - 09/02/15 02:32 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Just because you make a better case than me doesn't mean you are right, it just means you have a better understanding of neurochemistry. I'm taking biochemistry next year and will have a better understanding afterwards. There are people that have studied this subject better than either of us that disagree with your point,
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dark3st
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Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: fapjack]
#22181925 - 09/03/15 07:30 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
fapjack said: Just because you make a better case than me doesn't mean you are right, it just means you have a better understanding of neurochemistry
so you admit you have very little of a case, and understanding of something fundamentally important to this discussion. 
-------------------- Back.. I'm going to do it...I'm getting sober from opiates ... I got weed, gabapentin, propranolol, and GHB, I have 100mg tramadol left. I can do this. I can do this. OFINTQWGVGAKGCYKBUBX free dark P. Tampanensis prints to ODD members.
no stamps atm FREE SEEDS for ODD WCA members ONLY I have these seeds: Orange, red, and yellow sweet peppers, Purple poppies, White Habanero, Yellow Thai, Bolivian rainbow peppers, milk thistle, red chilly pepper, HBWR.
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morrowasted
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Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: dark3st]
#22182363 - 09/03/15 10:18 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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basically what he is saying is, "I don't know what I am talking about, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong."
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Cognitive_Shift
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Re: Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease [Re: morrowasted]
#22182537 - 09/03/15 11:09 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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No he's saying "I don't know as much about this subject as you, but it doesn't mean i'm wrong."
This is such a tricky question i'm not sure anyone is "right." There are just competing theories at this point IMO.
-------------------- L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
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