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tetherface
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Registered: 10/05/14
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100% BE?????
#22162763 - 08/29/15 10:30 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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I just recently started calculating the BE I've been getting on my tubs and a few smaller side projects anyways ive been thinking about the "1oz per quart of spawn and your on point" thing so does that mean that even though I've attained 100% BE I fell short of 4oz dry in reference to the 4qts spawn used??? thus would you guys consider this clone test is a fail?? 958.2 grams wet 1st flush sub was comprised of 500 grams coir and 350 grams verm totaling 850 grams for a total 112.7%BE       I like the speed and look of this clone but what do you guys think?? Would you guys keep lookin or run with it? I have 3 more tubs colonizing now with this same culture so it will be interesting to compare results and aid in a final decision I guess
Edited by tetherface (08/29/15 10:52 PM)
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Inocuole
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It's not terrible. I've gotten 2 ounces dry per quart of grain before though. How I wish now that I'd cloned some of that shit.
At least work with it until you get something else going.
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GreenRabbit
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Re: 100% BE????? [Re: Inocuole]
#22162829 - 08/29/15 10:46 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Can someone explain how to calculate BE and what it stands for? Sorry for the slightly unrelated thread jack..
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Inocuole
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So, when the dry weight of your substrate is the exact same as the fresh weight of your harvest, you have 100% BE. If your harvest is only half the weight of the substrate, you have 50% BE.
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tetherface
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Re: 100% BE????? [Re: Inocuole]
#22162846 - 08/29/15 10:48 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Wow 2 zips per qt is I hope I find a culture like that someday I've been workin on a monoculture with some pasty plates I think I have 1 more transfer to get there cant wait to try it out its a first for me
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Psilosopherr
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GreenRabbit
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Re: 100% BE????? [Re: Inocuole]
#22162863 - 08/29/15 10:51 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Inocuole said: So, when the dry weight of your substrate is the exact same as the fresh weight of your harvest, you have 100% BE. If your harvest is only half the weight of the substrate, you have 50% BE.
Thanks, and what does BE stand for?
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Inocuole
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Biological Efficiency.
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tetherface
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Re: 100% BE????? [Re: Inocuole]
#22162912 - 08/29/15 11:00 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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would it be acceptable to clone a 1st flush fruit from this clone? I would imagine some degradation of a culture from repeated cloning, not in this situation as im only 2 generations from spore right?
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Machiavelliavore
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The rule of thumb you are referring to is "1oz per quart of spawn first flush."
Given a typical 2:1:1 flush distribution, you could expect 2oz per quart from a decent culture.
Pasty has achieved ~3oz/qt in one flush from his stuff, so that's like a god benchmark. If you can get 2oz/qt first flush, or 3oz in 3 flushes, that would definitely be worth keeping. Otherwise, stick to your reliable culture while testing other cultures for better results.
I've only hit the latter benchmark once with a tray in like 7 flushes with repeated dunks, MS. It's been hot here, and it's been making my fruits drop to under 10% mass dry, so that may be shitting on my yields.
BE is, as was said previously, dry yield from dry sub weight. It's just one way of calculating yield efficiency, but not a great one since it will be heavily skewed by how much bulk substrate you use. Typically you want to use the minimum amount necessary to flush out your grain nutrition, preferably without dunking. Most people seem to feel this is between 1.5:1 and 2:1.
I think you can safely clone from it again. If it seems pansy ass on agar, toss it.
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I spawned some popcorn casings and had double-overlay cause I didn't put enough hydrogen peroxide in my automated aquarium mister. I only got one mushroom so I cut off the head part where the seeds fall from and put it in a jar of LC and sprayed it all over a tin of PF cakes I made with gravel, cardboard, and bisquick in my microwave. I think it will be good cause B+ is so potent. Triggered yet? Only a square would say "a cube is a cube."
No, this does not look right...
Edited by Machiavelliavore (08/29/15 11:38 PM)
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tetherface
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thanks Mach that pretty much answers all my q's and I was refereeing to first flush with the spawn reference but i'm still gonna keep an eye on the numbers to see how it pans out....I was thinking about dropping weight on my bulk sub to the point were I can only sustain the expected growth of the culture thus upping my BE figures to the max. Have any of you done this to optimize your grows? and it seems to me that 100%BE should be expected if the culture is anything but garbage? I've only gotten less than 100% since I started keeping track on a clone of a giant shroom that ended up at 93%BE but I think I had bacteria that wrecked my piunset (that grow is where that monster in my sig came from)
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Machiavelliavore
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Pasty uses 1:2, Frank uses 1:1.5. Pasty has the best result I've seen on here at 3oz/quart in one flush @ 1:2 CVG. I have so many other variables I couldn't make any correlation to substrate ratio. But if Pasty and frank can get it done with those ratios, I'd say there is plenty of water in their coir to flush out, so I see no reason to go above 1:2. I'm basically mimicking pasty's setup for my tubs and trying cultures for yield and potency.
My shotgun lasagna pans seem to be able to go like 1 month without contaminating, where as my monos seem to contam after 2 flushes. Not sure if that's the larger substrate, higher humidity, or both.
I'll probably be switching to V-tek assuming I can get my greenhouse hummin.
BE is weird. It takes dry substrate mass, then counts the water you added to hydrated it as part of the efficiency. I prefer to think in yield per cup of grain. Dry mass of grain to dry yield would be even better, since that is the best indication of nutritional value and cost of the grain. I wish people would list their grain usage in actual volume not "quarts" which range from 2-3.5 cups on here depending on the user. I see no reason to think in terms of a nearly meaningless metric that can't be intuitively and easily calculated.
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I spawned some popcorn casings and had double-overlay cause I didn't put enough hydrogen peroxide in my automated aquarium mister. I only got one mushroom so I cut off the head part where the seeds fall from and put it in a jar of LC and sprayed it all over a tin of PF cakes I made with gravel, cardboard, and bisquick in my microwave. I think it will be good cause B+ is so potent. Triggered yet? Only a square would say "a cube is a cube."
No, this does not look right...
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tetherface
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I always wondered the same thing most peoples qt's are maybe half full while I fill mine to the bottom of the taper most of the time but always at least 3/4 full so my 4 qt's I put in this tub could easily be 6-7 of other peeps qt's of grain spawn.I recently ran some V-TEK stuff it was pretty cool and super easy I ran them as invitro's and did very good when I cased got 200% BE from 1 that was cased with leftover CVG so that's pretty sweet but i'm sure you will have much better results from fruiting them in a greenhouse I had some fuzzy feet going on...I always wondered why we didn't factor in grain to BE but I think the BE thing came from edibles just to establish a baseline on expected yields(just a guess BTW)but it seems we measure expected yield by spawn volume instead amd from the few I've kept track of it seems 100% BE is a given using the amount of spawn we do around here cause I def know the edible guys aren't using nearly as much spawn anyways heres a few pics of my recent v-tek xp's it was the same clone that was in the tub above(I tested the LC on the V-tek's)     
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Machiavelliavore
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The main strain I've been using (redboy) puts out some weird disfigured spongy stems when grown invitro, so I haven't been too keen on that. I'll try some oak ridge at some point. The fruits I've gotten from regular V-tek were amazing, super dense, and perfectly proportioned.
Re: BE, I'm down to blame it on biologists not understanding math. I think edibles do tend to get a lot more nutrition from their bulk sub than cubes, and wet yield is what matters there, so I think you're probably right.
IMO the v-tek vs bulk thing doesn't come down to BE, but convenience. By the time the coir sub is prepped, tubs cleaned, lined, colonized, and cased (requires much more casing/grain,) it is a lot more work. Violet says she can get .75oz from 1 cup of rice. Assuming pasty uses a 3cup quart, that puts violet @ 2.25oz/qt vs his 3oz/qt. Then it's just a matter of the extra work and cost of spawning to bulk vs the inconvenience of prolonged flushing. I'm also more doubtful I can attain pasty's result than violet's. Her claims about the energy difference make no sense. There's more energy difference between the two grain preps she suggests than the 4qts of water boiled for a coir brick, and the coir makes nice compost.
BTW nice cased grain bottles. I have some suspect grains I think I'll try that on.
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I spawned some popcorn casings and had double-overlay cause I didn't put enough hydrogen peroxide in my automated aquarium mister. I only got one mushroom so I cut off the head part where the seeds fall from and put it in a jar of LC and sprayed it all over a tin of PF cakes I made with gravel, cardboard, and bisquick in my microwave. I think it will be good cause B+ is so potent. Triggered yet? Only a square would say "a cube is a cube."
No, this does not look right...
Edited by Machiavelliavore (08/30/15 07:46 AM)
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tetherface
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absolutely I've come to realize about the same with my BE's so far I coulda got the same yield from my mono from 10 v-teks. The ten v-teks would be about the same volume as the grain I used as spawn so it's defiantly something to consider. for me though its about convenience I can prep a mono(or 3) and spawn it at once but now that I think about it its basically the same cause I have to pc my grain spawn so maybe it actually takes an extra step of pasteurizing cvg?? instead of just sterilizing v-teks???(never considered this before)I think in the future when my need for BULK fruits drys up v-tek will be my go to method but for now im gonna continue to experiment I've also been recommending pf v-tek invitros to the noobs for its ease all around. ya I love cased (suspect) grain jars sometimes they surprise me and just blow up!
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Machiavelliavore
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My rough time accounting:
Grain Prep - Same
PC'ing - 2 runs 15 1cup v-tek containers vs 9qt jars @ 3cups per run, 9 per run, ?100mins? for quarts, 55 mins for v-tek, given the faster heatup n cooldown of pp5's, 110 for two v-tek runs vs 100 for quarts, two v-tek runs is 1/9 more grain, so I'd call it a wash slightly in favor of quarts.
Inoculation - Quarts will be faster with G2G, barely faster with LI/Slury
Spawning - n/a vs 100 mins work Cleaning tubs - 15 mins Cutting bags and applying liners - 20 mins (I suck at this) Prepping Coir 30 mins (between hacking out the right weight of coir, prepping water, mixing, gypsum, mixing, cleanup bla bla) Mixing in spawn 15 minutes per batch of isolated spawn (inc cleanup) Filling tubs 3 mins per tub ~100 mins work
Casing - My guess is about 15-20 v-tek containers have equal surface area to a 66qt mono and use a thinner layer, so that's maybe a 20% saving in time picking sticks out of peat and less shit to pasteurize. Not a big deal. 5-10 mins saving.
Fruiting - Gotta look at V-tek containers more often for bottomwatering. More harvesting time, but cleaner harvest IME.
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I spawned some popcorn casings and had double-overlay cause I didn't put enough hydrogen peroxide in my automated aquarium mister. I only got one mushroom so I cut off the head part where the seeds fall from and put it in a jar of LC and sprayed it all over a tin of PF cakes I made with gravel, cardboard, and bisquick in my microwave. I think it will be good cause B+ is so potent. Triggered yet? Only a square would say "a cube is a cube."
No, this does not look right...
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Green Bastard
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Quote:
Inocuole said: So, when the dry weight of your substrate is the exact same as the fresh weight of your harvest, you have 100%
Quote:
Machiavelliavore said:
BE is, as was said previously, dry yield from dry sub weight. .
Quote:
Machiavelliavore said:
BE is weird. It takes dry substrate mass, then counts the water you added to hydrated it as part of the efficiency.
Wait. What? Which is it here?
Seems to be some contradictory information here...
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Machiavelliavore
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Oops, typo. Yeah, wet yield from dry sub weight.
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I spawned some popcorn casings and had double-overlay cause I didn't put enough hydrogen peroxide in my automated aquarium mister. I only got one mushroom so I cut off the head part where the seeds fall from and put it in a jar of LC and sprayed it all over a tin of PF cakes I made with gravel, cardboard, and bisquick in my microwave. I think it will be good cause B+ is so potent. Triggered yet? Only a square would say "a cube is a cube."
No, this does not look right...
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tetherface
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I think its a typo mach stated it correctly in his first reply I think anyways its wet weight of 1st flush and dry weight of ingresdiants so if you harvest 100 grams off of a 100 gram substrate that's 100% BE
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blackout


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Quote:
Machiavelliavore said: Re: BE, I'm down to blame it on biologists not understanding math.
What do you mean by that? My understanding is BE is used in the mushroom industry and is showing what to expect from different substrates. They buy it dry and sell wet shrooms. It makes perfect sense to me. What do you think they do not understand?
Quote:
Machiavelliavore said:BE is, as was said previously, dry yield from dry sub weight. It's just one way of calculating yield efficiency, but not a great one since it will be heavily skewed by how much bulk substrate you use.
BE will change depending on the substrate make up. I do not think this is skewing things, its making it more comparable. If you have a massive amouts of verm included in your dry weight then you should certainly not expect the same BE if growing directly off RGS.
Quote:
Machiavelliavore said:Dry mass of grain to dry yield would be even better
I have said this before too. For cubensis growers we are not that concerned with wet weight. By using wet weight it could make out that certain methods are not great. e.g. invitro PF jars will typically produce drier shrooms which will not lose as much weight upon drying.
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cronicr



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Quote:
tetherface said: would it be acceptable to clone a 1st flush fruit from this clone? I would imagine some degradation of a culture from repeated cloning, not in this situation as im only 2 generations from spore right?
why not just go back to the plate?
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tetherface
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Re: 100% BE????? [Re: cronicr]
#22164984 - 08/30/15 02:15 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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I could just wasn't sure which is better 1. to clone another first flush fruit or 2. go back to the original plate which is horribly overgrown, I also have a plate that I've been trying to isolate as a mono culture so I could use it to inoculate some grain jars at my next transfer but its from a different clone. I just wasn't sure what the community considers a "good" culture and was just wondering how BE weighs in on your guys decision making if it does at all. thanks for the responses guys
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cronicr



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I wouldnt clone a clone, take care of your plates because if it is a winner you want it in good shape
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spacechildo
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Quote:
tetherface said: I always wondered why we didn't factor in grain to BE
what? of course we do! if not then every tub with 1 brick coir 2qt verm would only have to give 3-4oz for 100% BE. (650g coir + a cpl 100 grams for the verm.
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tetherface
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Quote:
spacechildo said:
Quote:
tetherface said: I always wondered why we didn't factor in grain to BE
what? of course we do! if not then every tub with 1 brick coir 2qt verm would only have to give 3-4oz for 100% BE. (650g coir + a cpl 100 grams for the verm.
really? see that makes sense to me but its always been explained as dry weight of sub compared to wet weight of first flush so am I wrong cause I think that's what I read in TMC??/?
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spacechildo
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the substrate means the block you're fruiting from. you add the weight of the brf and verm in pf-cakes BE calculations. more spawn gives you more mushrooms but spawn also weighs quite a bit even dry, 150-200g pr cup which = ~1 qt jar prepped spawn.
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tetherface
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that makes perfect sense to me but like I said I've never heard anyone else explain it like that but anyways in response to CRON I just pulled that overgrown plate out of the tote I keep my spawn in and its pinning on agar well actually off the glass but does that indicate good or bad? the plate was clean (I think) before it grew out should I clone 1 of the pins? I just made up a bunch of pasty plates for the "communal grow" tomorrow so I have plates on hand or should I just start transferring myc and isolating?  what do you guys think? I've never let a plate do this before so i'm not sure what my best options are?
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Inocuole
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It's not wet weight of first flush that calculates BE 
See now mach just got you confused.
DRY SUB -> WET HARVEST
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tetherface
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Re: 100% BE????? [Re: Inocuole]
#22165207 - 08/30/15 03:27 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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oh man i'm getting facepalmed...lol I thought it was wet weight first flush in relation to dry substrate weight (not including spawn) but space said it does include spawn and he knows his shit so who is right do you include dry weight of grain spawn? is this culture a super fail because I didn't include spawn in my original BE figures? and whats your guys take on where to go from here should I clone a pin off the original overgrown plate pictured above?thanks guys I appreciate it
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cronicr



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it's your total harvest not just your first flush and yes grain spawn, casing payers...everything should be added that's a part of the substrate
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spacechildo
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tether, consider this.
if I have a qt jar with colonized grains, and it has a bit of bacteria in it so I dont wanna spawn it. I put ~5-10gram verm on top and fruit it like a mudabottle.
I get 100grams fresh mushrooms. what's my BE? 100g mush/10g verm x 100% = 1000%Did I just knock it out of the ball park?
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spacechildo
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Quote:
tetherface said: and whats your guys take on where to go from here should I clone a pin off the original overgrown plate pictured above?thanks guys I appreciate it
the myc on the plate has spent far less energy than the finished mushroom has. I'd still use the plate. remember to put it in the fridge next time!
oh and cron just nailed it!
Edited by spacechildo (08/30/15 03:31 PM)
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cronicr



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as for your plate you could chuck one of those pins on a new plate, next time don't let it grow out like that
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tetherface
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Re: 100% BE????? [Re: cronicr]
#22165271 - 08/30/15 03:46 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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thanks guys for taking the time to explain it thouroughly so ya im a failure lol ill keep on searchin for a good culture and im gonna take the pin to a plate and maybe do a few transfers from the overgrown plate (I don't have a clue on where to take myc from since its so overgrown)and ya fridge FTW from now on that plate kinda just got left behind in my box when I made a couple LC's with another one that ive been using as inoculate all month so I kinda just forgot about it on another note i'm working on a monoculture that produced that fatty in my sig so at least I have options but the way cron implied its not good practice to clone a clone on the 1st flush?
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spacechildo
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you want to store as young a culture as possible, thats why you put the plate in the fridge once its clean and then just have it sit cold while the grains are colonizing etc. after first harvest you decide if its a keeper (make a slant of it) or not.
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tetherface
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right on bro you always give me good info my mutha fuckin man!!!!!
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spacechildo
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cronicr



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  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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FriedEgg



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Re: 100% BE????? [Re: cronicr]
#22217386 - 09/10/15 03:33 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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When weighing your spawn, do you weigh it unprepped or prepped (soaked or simmered)? colonized or uncolonized?
Oh and I assume you don't weigh the casing material?
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ShroominMe
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Re: 100% BE????? [Re: FriedEgg]
#22219292 - 09/10/15 10:59 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Sorry, worst post ever
Edited by ShroominMe (09/11/15 03:48 PM)
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FriedEgg



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Re: 100% BE????? [Re: cronicr]
#22219345 - 09/10/15 11:15 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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@shroominme: hmmmmm after reading what cron wrote, im going to go ahead and disregard everything you just said.
Quote:
cronicr said: it's your total harvest not just your first flush and yes grain spawn, casing payers...everything should be added that's a part of the substrate
at this point i'm just wondering if the spawn is weighed prepped or unprepped
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Inocuole
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Re: 100% BE????? [Re: FriedEgg]
#22219416 - 09/10/15 11:35 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Watch out, you almost corrected him. That makes him ignore you. The spawn is weighed unprepped. All you're doing is adding water to it afterwards so it doesn't really count toward the BE. You count the water in the mushrooms because they're in their natural state, as a food product.
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Mad Season
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Re: 100% BE????? [Re: FriedEgg]
#22219473 - 09/10/15 11:50 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
FriedEgg said: @shroominme: hmmmmm after reading what cron wrote, im going to go ahead and disregard everything you just said.
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uninc4life2010
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I'm actually running a BE experiment that deals with casing layers and 1:4 vs 1:2 spawn ratios. Two of my mono's are starting to knot up. Check it out if you get a chance. I've tried to be as thorough and clear as possible.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/22133690
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PussyFart
Retired Cultivation Extrodinaire



Registered: 04/08/12
Posts: 22,502
Loc: Orbiting Earth
Last seen: 17 days, 19 hours
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Quote:
ShroominMe said:
Quote:
FriedEgg said: When weighing your spawn, do you weigh it unprepped or prepped (soaked or simmered)? colonized or uncolonized?
Oh and I assume you don't weigh the casing material?
You don't weigh spawn You weigh your substrate Prepped / hydrated because your fruits are hydrated, right?  Uncolonized Casing material should be nutrient-free so you don't weigh that.
Yea, but the spawn is the main source of nutrients......
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THIS HOBBY IS NOT FOR THE IMPATIENT! PLEASE BE PATIENT, DON'T BE A PATIENT! A Tale of 10 Isolates, GT Cluster Clone Monotubs, RR's Let's Grow Mushrooms DVD, SGFC(Shotgun Fruiting Chamber), Monotub Tek, Damion5050's Coir Tek, TL's Tek List, Frank's Tek List, EvilMushroom666's Pasteurization Tek, How It Should & Shouldn't Look - NEW CULTIVATORS GUIDE *** *** AFGHAN KUSH GROW LOG *** ***
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 61,436
Loc: Van Isle
Last seen: 2 years, 8 days
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Quote:
ShroominMe said:
Quote:
FriedEgg said: When weighing your spawn, do you weigh it unprepped or prepped (soaked or simmered)? colonized or uncolonized?
Oh and I assume you don't weigh the casing material?
You don't weigh spawn You weigh your substrate Prepped / hydrated because your fruits are hydrated, right?  Uncolonized Casing material should be nutrient-free so you don't weigh that.
Yes you weigh grains dry sub dry casing dry
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  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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PussyFart
Retired Cultivation Extrodinaire



Registered: 04/08/12
Posts: 22,502
Loc: Orbiting Earth
Last seen: 17 days, 19 hours
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Re: 100% BE????? [Re: cronicr]
#22219952 - 09/11/15 03:09 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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THIS HOBBY IS NOT FOR THE IMPATIENT! PLEASE BE PATIENT, DON'T BE A PATIENT! A Tale of 10 Isolates, GT Cluster Clone Monotubs, RR's Let's Grow Mushrooms DVD, SGFC(Shotgun Fruiting Chamber), Monotub Tek, Damion5050's Coir Tek, TL's Tek List, Frank's Tek List, EvilMushroom666's Pasteurization Tek, How It Should & Shouldn't Look - NEW CULTIVATORS GUIDE *** *** AFGHAN KUSH GROW LOG *** ***
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Inocuole
Scalpel of Evil's Bane



Registered: 11/21/11
Posts: 24,863
Loc: ★
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I can't believe that guy is even still posting. Pretty much every single post of his is just bad information, dead wrong, every time.
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FriedEgg



Registered: 09/22/14
Posts: 2,536
Loc: Taiwan
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Re: 100% BE????? [Re: Inocuole]
#22220960 - 09/11/15 09:20 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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thanks for clarifying cron 
Quote:
Inocuole said: I can't believe that guy is even still posting. Pretty much every single post of his is just bad information, dead wrong, every time. 
thank the gods for the rating system
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How to post pics
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