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pseudomonas bacteria, microscopic examination of brown spots on stems * 3
    #22162201 - 08/29/15 07:39 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)



I was told nearly unanimously that these fruits were infected with vert

I also thought these looked like telltale vert

So I took some tissue samples and examined them microscopically.
what I found was all the brown spots had what looks like rod shaped bacteria everywhere, but no vert spores or vert mycelium structures.

I do see some bacteria that maybe could be vert spores since some vert spores look very similar to some bacillus.



these all look like bacteria to me, some of them MAYBE could be vert spores. however I see no vert mycelium nor the structures that produce vert spores.

anyone who has had microscopic experience with mushroom tissue and or Vert have anything to chime in?

any ways to take tissue samples to try to find vert better?

could these brown spots be 100% bacterial problems?

these mushrooms had bacterial blotch on some of the caps, I kept the casing layer much too wet and while they were primordia they got a bit fucked, I'm either thinking this let vert take hold or the bacteria itself is what is causing the distinct morphology on these cubes

EDIT 9/16/15


So it's fairly conclusive that all these brown spots and fucked up caps are due to bacteria, not vert.

edit 1/22/16


strikes again on peu, and some on some envySS fruits too


it appears it is pseudomonas




Very short small motile rods.


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Re: verticillium or bacteria, microscopic examination of brown spots on stems [Re: bodhisatta]
    #22162653 - 08/29/15 09:56 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

You have to isolate it from the mushroom first. Place one of the spotted pins in a 95%+ RH environment and assuming it's vertcillium you'll see greyish growth over the spotted areas and you can transfer bits of that greyish mycelium to agar for identification.


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Re: verticillium or bacteria, microscopic examination of brown spots on stems [Re: Kizzle]
    #22162683 - 08/29/15 10:03 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

I have one in a baggie to examine Monday.
Thoughts on the bacteria


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Re: verticillium or bacteria, microscopic examination of brown spots on stems [Re: bodhisatta]
    #22162720 - 08/29/15 10:18 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

ive been having the same issues as of late.  :mad:




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Re: verticillium or bacteria, microscopic examination of brown spots on stems [Re: SexySmurff]
    #22163376 - 08/30/15 03:26 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Does it grow? :V


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Re: verticillium or bacteria, microscopic examination of brown spots on stems [Re: SexySmurff]
    #22163380 - 08/30/15 03:31 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

SexySmurff said:
ive been having the same issues as of late.  :mad:







Not sure I see anything wrong there >.>

How is the humidity% ???

Also, if you're daring take a whiff and see if you can tell a bacteria or yeast smell.

You will probably not die :V

Mushrooms once colonized are pretty resistant so my guess is they are dry, or in the unlikely case have an actual pathogen. It's not competitive in this case


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Re: verticillium or bacteria, microscopic examination of brown spots on stems [Re: micro]
    #22163399 - 08/30/15 03:52 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

they did die.  pinn stalled out turned into black soggy slime.  hot mess all the way around.

here's a pic of some spawn from same run



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Re: verticillium or bacteria, microscopic examination of brown spots on stems [Re: SexySmurff]
    #22163415 - 08/30/15 04:08 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Hmm. Black pinheads sound familiar >.>

... aborts?

Infections are generally more prolific than it seems from the pic.

Also, how is your humidity?

Also, is that a casing? The plastic on the sides will trap water and you want to make sure to spread the mycelium pretty evenly (not too evenly or you'll get hypogonasm :V

From the picture it seems like something is uneven -- not sure if it is the casing, humidity or something in it. Also, you don't have this problem but if you use peat make sure to pull al the sticks out.


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Edited by micro (08/30/15 04:13 AM)

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Re: verticillium or bacteria, microscopic examination of brown spots on stems [Re: micro]
    #22163424 - 08/30/15 04:22 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

i'm kind of an old pro so i do appreciate your comments... 

this is what i can do when disease free




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Re: verticillium or bacteria, microscopic examination of brown spots on stems [Re: SexySmurff]
    #22163430 - 08/30/15 04:32 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

neato! me too :wink:

I'm guessing that's between a QP and a LB dry. Clloser to a LB.

What was the rest of the casing like? :V

I was always more the "don't put your eggs in one basket" type

Sans appeal to authority pics are pics. I've had great flushes and also shitty ones.

I was more curious about the "problem" (if there is one)

I doubt bacteria would grow on live mushrooms if they are healthy.

I'm not teling you to do this but did you smell them?

Oh, AND HUMIDITY

(sorry, it's cool in the gang but I already asked twice and there's a reason)


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Re: verticillium or bacteria, microscopic examination of brown spots on stems [Re: micro]
    #22163725 - 08/30/15 08:23 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

I doubt bacteria would grow on live mushrooms if they are healthy




It does that is how they get unhealthy...

Most bacteria makes no obvious smell. Some make horrible smells


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Re: verticillium or bacteria, microscopic examination of brown spots on stems [Re: bodhisatta]
    #22164826 - 08/30/15 01:17 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Mushrooms and healthy mycelium have a way of fighting off competitors, mainly by releasing enzymes and even altering the pH of the environment. If you have mushrooms that are not picked and growing and they are contaminated with bacteria, you are doing something wrong.

Also, I think most bacteria has *some* smell, but it depends what quantity to be noticeable. In my experience, any time I've gotten bacterial or yeast contamination it was obvious.

I'll back up again though. If you have mushrooms growing (cased, terrarium, whatever who cares) and there is contamination that is not a PATHOGEN (aka a competitor) something is wrong. My old roomie got cobweb on his casings all the time for example and the conditions seemed perfect... We found out it was sticks in the peat moss.

Pathogens are a different story though.

Oh, and picked or dead mushrooms can get bacteria easily. That's why it's so important to dry them quickly, Same with uncolonised substrate.


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Re: verticillium or bacteria, microscopic examination of brown spots on stems [Re: Kizzle]
    #22169612 - 08/31/15 03:06 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Kizzle said:
You have to isolate it from the mushroom first. Place one of the spotted pins in a 95%+ RH environment and assuming it's vertcillium you'll see greyish growth over the spotted areas and you can transfer bits of that greyish mycelium to agar for identification.



so I took the shroom I had in a baggie since saturday and still didn't see any signs of vert mycelium growing and neither did I under magnification. I still saw bacteria though. small short rods on all the brown tissue.


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Re: verticillium or bacteria, microscopic examination of brown spots on stems [Re: bodhisatta]
    #22170898 - 08/31/15 07:45 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Can we see an updated pic of the fruits? By now if the infection is Lecanicillium fungicola, and given how early it set in, you should be seeing some stipe blowout. If you're not seeing any then I am really intrigued.

After looking at the necrotic patterning, it does look a little different than a typical vert infection. Mine typically are near the bottoms, while yours actually climb fairly high up the stipe.

The final oddity would be the caps, which do appear more pseudomonias rather than white mold, they have black necrotic patches, not grey, which is the usual color caps go with these infections on cubes. But to my knowledge pseudomonias does not attack the stipes at all, and I have never seen a pic of it doing so. But if there were infected with wet spot you will soon know one way or the other.

An updated pic of the fruits would be really cool tho. You do seem to get the odd stuff man. . .

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Re: verticillium or bacteria, microscopic examination of brown spots on stems [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #22170928 - 08/31/15 07:50 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

The only ones I saved are the ones in the plastic bag. The rest was dumped, vert, if that was the problem, seems like nothing to fuck around with in your space.

I believe that a saturated casing layer and a new mono that was more dialed for RH than FAE led to bacteria on the caps and stems.

I didn't see any signs of splitting stipes. It started with the caps, they would look like aborts but aborts usually don't get that big.


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Re: verticillium or bacteria, microscopic examination of brown spots on stems [Re: SexySmurff]
    #22171846 - 08/31/15 10:56 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Bacteria is probably all is was then.

Quote:

SexySmurff said:
ive been having the same issues as of late.  :mad:






This is no doubt bacteria. Verticillium wouldn't cause sliminess like that. Misting or allowing condensation to drip on an infected fruit body will spread large amount of the bacteria to nearby mushrooms so it's a good idea remove any pins with blotching it before misting or soaking the substrate.


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Re: verticillium or bacteria, microscopic examination of brown spots on stems [Re: Kizzle]
    #22172350 - 09/01/15 02:22 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

the result of spawning questionable spawn bags.


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Re: verticillium or bacteria, microscopic examination of brown spots on stems [Re: SexySmurff]
    #22230524 - 09/13/15 08:57 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)



So what's this stuff?


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Re: verticillium or bacteria, microscopic examination of brown spots on stems [Re: bodhisatta]
    #22235852 - 09/14/15 10:02 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

I can't make out any spore structures. The most common species of Verticillium found on mushrooms looks like this. Oval spores which develop at the tips of branches. The clusters of branches are connected at the base and found at various locations along a hypha.



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Re: verticillium or bacteria, microscopic examination of brown spots on stems [Re: Kizzle]
    #22236235 - 09/14/15 11:41 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Basically what I've seen in my Google image searches too. I'll keep an eye out


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Re: verticillium or bacteria, microscopic examination of brown spots on stems [Re: bodhisatta]
    #22247416 - 09/16/15 06:40 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)



I'd say that's fairly conclusive that it's bacteria and no mold infection.


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Re: verticillium or bacteria, microscopic examination of brown spots on stems [Re: bodhisatta]
    #22247420 - 09/16/15 06:42 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Really would like to know what kind.

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Re: verticillium or bacteria, microscopic examination of brown spots on stems [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #22247436 - 09/16/15 06:46 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

interestingly enough since it's hard to captivate what I'm actually seeing but some of the rod shaped bacteria are motile but the large majority of them are not motile (or seem so) and very short. some of them are so short they almost look like diplococci maybe lactococcus since they are some times elongated a bit.

the swimmers my guess is Pseudomonas fluorescens


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Re: verticillium or bacteria, microscopic examination of brown spots on stems [Re: bodhisatta]
    #22277637 - 09/23/15 07:18 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)


I would call this problem very contagious


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Re: verticillium or bacteria, microscopic examination of brown spots on stems [Re: bodhisatta]
    #22277658 - 09/23/15 07:28 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

That is definitely pseudomonias. But I see no necrosis of the stipe on those fruits. Hmmm.

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Re: verticillium or bacteria, microscopic examination of brown spots on stems [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #22811497 - 01/22/16 03:07 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

edited the op


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Re: verticillium or bacteria, microscopic examination of brown spots on stems [Re: bodhisatta]
    #24026171 - 01/20/17 04:33 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

So you concluded that the contamination was from a bacteria and not verticillium. 

Would you say that these mushrooms also have the same contamination?  There are many posts are shroomery that look to have a similar contamination and everyone is calling it verticllium.  This thread has something that looks similar but maybe just a look-a-like or maybe this thread is actually proving that what everyone thought was verticillium was really bacteria all along. 

Any opinions on what I have here?


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Re: verticillium or bacteria, microscopic examination of brown spots on stems [Re: Thedillestpickle]
    #24026181 - 01/20/17 04:36 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah I would say those were bacteria. Lencacillium  (verticillium) is better charecterized by the peeling and splitting stipe, blown out and slumped fruits, with greyish caps.

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Re: verticillium or bacteria, microscopic examination of brown spots on stems [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #24026483 - 01/20/17 06:40 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

yep bacteria, yours look like some bacteria too, and what pasty said

air and light can be in more abundance


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Re: verticillium or bacteria, microscopic examination of brown spots on stems [Re: bodhisatta]
    #27424776 - 08/11/21 11:47 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
I would call this problem very contagious



How did you end up dealing with this? Did you need to shut the lab down and clean, or something less drastic?

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Re: verticillium or bacteria, microscopic examination of brown spots on stems [Re: gone-pear-shaped]
    #27425241 - 08/12/21 11:52 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Sounds like a mulligan. I get that shit too !  Plan : clean ,wipe, scrub ,rinse , disinfectant  repeat and blast with germicidal light while the labs unoccupied. ( shielding any live mycelium or spores) A dehumidifier may help too as water is life & If the air is dry there’s less crud that can live in it .
I found the brown streak was from overly humid conditions but it sounds much more complicated than that.
I never worried about a little bit , and it hasn’t made me ill . Though I discard the ones that have more than a little spot or streak . I pray it’s benign. I harvest early and it helps plus I like closed caps and partially open ones better .
I seems to me if I physically abate it , it makes a difference and doesn’t spread .


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Re: verticillium or bacteria, microscopic examination of brown spots on stems [Re: gone-pear-shaped]
    #27426419 - 08/13/21 07:08 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

gone-pear-shaped said:
Quote:

bodhisatta said:
I would call this problem very contagious



How did you end up dealing with this? Did you need to shut the lab down and clean, or something less drastic?



Just start over. Go back to petri dishes etc..


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Re: verticillium or bacteria, microscopic examination of brown spots on stems [Re: bodhisatta]
    #27428193 - 08/14/21 04:04 PM (2 years, 8 months ago)

Is this the offender? The brown streak strikes again.
It’s a second flush of Cambodian from a MS BRF cake.



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Edited by Psilimax (08/14/21 04:07 PM)

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