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Offlinecircastes
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The truth is so simple, the sages were almost tricksters
    #22159279 - 08/29/15 04:14 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

To intellectualize the truth is to completely eclipse it. There are so many books, scriptures and teachers that one ought to think enlightenment were somehow a hard task.

I think Mooji says something to this effect, then goes on to say, 'it is just this'

...just your ordinary wakefulness.

One is just pretending, 'it is is all a great game of pretending' -Maharshi

I think I've said this a million times, but probably because of my illness or brain injury making it all so convoluted, not so much that I was wrong or confused or struggling with my own bullshit.

But tonight here I am sitting feeling fucking great, wondering how deep this love/ecstasy can go.

All you need to find out is you need a 7/10 or 8/10 ability to control your own mind, then you can stop reading anything you're reading.

Then it's just a matter of 'coming off it', stopping the pretense, and then keeping your mind from straying further than it needs to serve your own goals and interests in life.

You will feel effing great, and realise only you are real, that suffering and mystery are all in the mind (to use more of Maharshi)

It's a total feeling, something like the completeness of childhood, and may go very deep, perhaps I'm just scratching the surface.

No wonder the Buddha is laughing.


--------------------
My solitude...
My shield...
My armour...

TESTED
WITH
FULL
FORCE


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OfflineMrBlueYoMind
Don't do drugs (Without me)

Registered: 04/27/11
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Re: The truth is so simple, the sages were almost tricksters [Re: circastes]
    #22159333 - 08/29/15 05:57 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

So suffering and misery is all in the mind?  Tell that to the kids in Africa that are being recruited to child-armies and if they refuse they get their arms hacked off.  Tell them it's all in their mind. 

Tell the families of the journalist that got his head cut off that his and their suffering is all in the mind.

You honestly think all that is in the mind?  Or is it just "Out of sight, out of mind, therefor it doesn't exist" for you?

No wonder the devil is laughing.


--------------------
Confucius say: He who sticks drugs in butthole has head up ass. 
EVOLUTION REQUIRES REPRODUCTION


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: The truth is so simple, the sages were almost tricksters [Re: MrBlueYoMind]
    #22159488 - 08/29/15 07:36 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

The truth is anything but simple.  What is interesting is how there is so much going on that 90% (conservative estimate) HAVE to completely ignore in order to continue living how they are living.  To face the truth of what is actually going on in the world is frankly a major bummer, if you let it get to you.

For me, the truth is so amazing, we are being bum fucked every day and people just bend over and take it with a stupid fucking text faced thumb racing blankness.  They have become victims of Facebook and the smart world of things of which they are one thing.  "Is it OK for us to locate you"?  Of course, you know where I am anyway, I can't even turn this fucking phone off with the battery out of it. 

And that's the truth.

Of course, can you blame them?  They gave up their privacy for the promise of security that they actually believed was the truth.  They believed that if they had done nothing wrong, they had nothing to worry about.  They believed that as long as the SS wasn't coming for them, they would be OK.

They believed.


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Anxiety is what you make it.


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Offlinesyncro
Registered: 01/14/15
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Re: The truth is so simple, the sages were almost tricksters [Re: circastes]
    #22162660 - 08/29/15 09:58 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

IIRC, Zen Master Huang Po said the same thing, that although it is as simple as Mind is the Buddha, and if one would simply cease conceptual discourse it would quickly be realized, the Buddha could not say something so simple without people laughing it off.  But neither could the Buddha say nothing, so came up the many formal teachings.


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OfflineEggtimer
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Registered: 05/04/13
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Re: The truth is so simple, the sages were almost tricksters [Re: syncro] * 1
    #22163246 - 08/30/15 01:31 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

It is simple. If you tell people it's simple though they think "it can't be that simple!"


Quote:

In accordance with this it is said, 'Fish should not be taken from (the protection of) the deep waters; the agencies for the profit of a state should not be shown to men.' But those sages (and their teachings) are the agencies for the profit of the world, and should not be exhibited to it. Therefore if an end were put to sageness and wisdom put away, the great robbers would cease to arise. If jade were put away and pearls broken to bits, the small thieves would not appear. If tallies were burned and seals broken in pieces, the people would become simple and unsophisticated.

If pecks were destroyed and steelyards snapped in two, the people would have no wrangling. If the rules of the sages were entirely set aside in the world, a beginning might be made of reasoning with the people. If the six musical accords were reduced to a state of utter confusion, organs and lutes all burned, and the ears of the (musicians like the) blind Khwang stopped up, all men would begin to possess and employ their (natural) power of hearing. If elegant ornaments were abolished, the five embellishing colours disused and the eyes of (men like) Lî Kû glued up, all men would begin to possess and employ their (natural) power of vision.

If the hook and line were destroyed, the compass and square thrown away, and the fingers of men (like) the artful Khui smashed, all men would begin to possess and employ their (natural) skill;-- as it is said, 'The greatest art is like stupidity.' If conduct such as that of Tsang (Shan) and Shih (Khiû) were discarded, the mouths of Yang (Kû) and Mo (Tî) gagged, and benevolence and righteousness seized and thrown aside, the virtue of all men would begin to display its mysterious excellence. When men possessed and employed their (natural) power of vision, there would be no distortion in the world.

When they possessed and employed their (natural) power of hearing, there would be no distractions in the world. When they possessed and employed their (natural) faculty of knowledge, there would be no delusions in the world. When they possessed and employed their (natural) virtue, there would be no depravity in the world. Men like Tsang (Shan), Shih (Khiû), Yang (Kû), Mo (Tî), Shih Khwang (the musician), the artist Khui, and Lî Kû, all display their qualities outwardly, and set the world in a blaze (of admiration) and confound it;-- a method which is of no use!




Quote:

MrBlueYoMind said:
So suffering and misery is all in the mind?  Tell that to the kids in Africa that are being recruited to child-armies and if they refuse they get their arms hacked off.  Tell them it's all in their mind. 

Tell the families of the journalist that got his head cut off that his and their suffering is all in the mind.

You honestly think all that is in the mind?  Or is it just "Out of sight, out of mind, therefor it doesn't exist" for you?

No wonder the devil is laughing.




It is in your mind. How you look at it is up to you. The world does not feel this way and certainly not that way thus you decide how it feels.


Quote:

Suffering is forgetting who you really are.

We suffer when we don’t see this completeness – this intimacy – within the present experience. When we don’t see that every wave that’s presently appearing is part of the ocean and therefore allowed in the ocean, we start trying to escape this moment to attempt to reach the next moment. We experience ourselves as not whole or somehow broken so we attempt to move away from this moment. In truth, that movement is not actually possible but we try anyway because that’s how we are programmed. We try to move away from this moment to get to the next moment, to tomorrow or next year or to ten years time. We start to use time to achieve this. This is the origin of suffering. We try to escape what’s happening now. We try to run away from aspects of our present experience. We try to escape these thoughts, sensations and feelings and get to a future place where things will be better. That’s the movement of suffering.

Within suffering you’ll always find seeking. Seeking is the basic mechanism behind all of our suffering. We label certain elements of experience ‘bad’ or ‘negative’ or ‘dark’ or ‘dangerous’ or ‘unhealthy’ and that’s because of our conditioning. We have been conditioned to label things as ‘fear’, ‘sadness’, ‘anger’, and do on, and to judge these as negative, or not-okay, or bad, or sinful – basically as expressions of incompleteness, as threats to completeness. Because we don’t seethe completeness in these waves, because we can’t find the ocean within these so-called ‘negative’ waves, we try to escape them and that movement ‘away from’ creates the suffering. Then we create stories and identities around this suffering: ‘Oh, I’m a victim of my suffering. I’m a victim of fear and pain! Why is this happening to me? How can I escape this experience?‘

Suffering is a great teacher. Maybe it’s the best teacher but we often don’t see that, because we don’t realise what suffering really is. Normally, we do all sorts of things to avoid, deny and numb our suffering. We take medication, drink alcohol or try to distract ourselves. Of course, there’s ultimately nothing with doing these things either! But suffering is always an opportunity; it’s an invitation to discover the completeness in what you are running away from. Which aspects of your experience right now are not okay? Which waves (thoughts, sensations, and feelings) of the ocean are being rejected right now? Which waves are not being seen as part of the ocean? Basically, what are you at war with? This is always the question that suffering leads you to.

Within the experience of suffering you’ll always find seeking. You can believe as much as you like that you’re not seeking, or that you are free from the self, but whenever there’s suffering there’s seeking. It’s the story of ‘me’ looking for something, escaping something; it’s the story of incompleteness or of feeling that there’s something wrong with you. So, the invitation – not a demand – is to take a look at what you are at war with right now. What’s the story? What are the images you are trying to hold up? What are you defending? What are you rejecting? What are you running away from? Look a little deeper. Perhaps these images of yourself are not who you really are. Maybe these stories don’t define you.

We suffer when we try to hold up images of ourselves – ‘I’m strong, I’m enlightened, I’m a success, I’m loving, I’m kind, I’m happy’ – which conflict with life as it is. And in the end, all images conflict with life as it is – no image can match this moment. This moment is the fire that burns up all images. In this moment there could be pain, sadness, fear –any image that says that what’s appearing shouldn’t be appearing, that you should be happy, or free from pain, is a false image.





Edited by Eggtimer (08/30/15 01:40 AM)


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Offlinesyncro
Registered: 01/14/15
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Re: The truth is so simple, the sages were almost tricksters [Re: Eggtimer]
    #22163843 - 08/30/15 09:05 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Affirmed in me from Mooji's talk above is that, if it can be perceived, then it can be dismissed (as being something I can take hold of).


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Registered: 11/30/11
Posts: 26,088
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Re: The truth is so simple, the sages were almost tricksters [Re: Eggtimer]
    #22163955 - 08/30/15 09:35 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Eggtimer said:
Within the experience of suffering you’ll always find seeking. You can believe as much as you like that you’re not seeking, or that you are free from the self, but whenever there’s suffering there’s seeking. It’s the story of ‘me’ looking for something, escaping something; it’s the story of incompleteness or of feeling that there’s something wrong with you. So, the invitation – not a demand – is to take a look at what you are at war with right now. What’s the story? What are the images you are trying to hold up? What are you defending? What are you rejecting? What are you running away from? Look a little deeper. Perhaps these images of yourself are not who you really are. Maybe these stories don’t define you.

We suffer when we try to hold up images of ourselves – ‘I’m strong, I’m enlightened, I’m a success, I’m loving, I’m kind, I’m happy’ – which conflict with life as it is. And in the end, all images conflict with life as it is – no image can match this moment. This moment is the fire that burns up all images. In this moment there could be pain, sadness, fear –any image that says that what’s appearing shouldn’t be appearing, that you should be happy, or free from pain, is a false image.



Fuckin' right on man.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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OfflineBoomertown
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Re: The truth is so simple, the sages were almost tricksters [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #22166189 - 08/30/15 07:44 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Good stuff there Eggtimer!!:thumbup:


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OfflineEggtimer
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Re: The truth is so simple, the sages were almost tricksters [Re: Boomertown]
    #22166860 - 08/30/15 09:36 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Jokeshopbeard said:
Quote:

Eggtimer said:
Within the experience of suffering you’ll always find seeking. You can believe as much as you like that you’re not seeking, or that you are free from the self, but whenever there’s suffering there’s seeking. It’s the story of ‘me’ looking for something, escaping something; it’s the story of incompleteness or of feeling that there’s something wrong with you. So, the invitation – not a demand – is to take a look at what you are at war with right now. What’s the story? What are the images you are trying to hold up? What are you defending? What are you rejecting? What are you running away from? Look a little deeper. Perhaps these images of yourself are not who you really are. Maybe these stories don’t define you.

We suffer when we try to hold up images of ourselves – ‘I’m strong, I’m enlightened, I’m a success, I’m loving, I’m kind, I’m happy’ – which conflict with life as it is. And in the end, all images conflict with life as it is – no image can match this moment. This moment is the fire that burns up all images. In this moment there could be pain, sadness, fear –any image that says that what’s appearing shouldn’t be appearing, that you should be happy, or free from pain, is a false image.



Fuckin' right on man.




Quote:

Boomertown said:
Good stuff there Eggtimer!!:thumbup:




It's amazing the difference it makes.
I'm not completely there but I know I can do it! :rockon:


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InvisibleChronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
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Re: The truth is so simple, the sages were almost tricksters [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #22167830 - 08/31/15 06:03 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

LE you seem to be talking about the relative truth of the world, OP seems to be talking about the simplicity of absolute truth, neither should be ignored. A fundamental part of what's going on in this world is distracting us from the absolute truth of ourselves, imo its realization is the most powerful remedy to the suffering in the world.

It's beyond simple really, beyond all ideas, beyond everything.


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OfflineMrBlueYoMind
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Re: The truth is so simple, the sages were almost tricksters [Re: Chronic7] * 1
    #22170556 - 08/31/15 06:42 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

I would still like some clarification on the existence of child armies in Africa that cut the hands off of children who won't conform.

Is it your position that:

They only exist inside my head, therefor they don't exist in your reality since you've somehow transcended suffering.
The suffering they experience is only in their head and a result of "seeking" something (mainly freedom)?
The don't really suffer if I don't think they're suffering?

I'm still confused as to how atrocities in the world that I know very little about yet still exist is somehow the result of my own personal thought process.  I don't personally suffer as a result of the existence of child armies, but I can promise that the 8 year old who got their arm cut off certainly is.  And to say it is simply a product of their own mind is nonsense.  To deny their existence is deplorable.


--------------------
Confucius say: He who sticks drugs in butthole has head up ass. 
EVOLUTION REQUIRES REPRODUCTION


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Re: The truth is so simple, the sages were almost tricksters [Re: MrBlueYoMind]
    #22170748 - 08/31/15 07:16 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MrBlueYoMind said:
I would still like some clarification on the existence of child armies in Africa that cut the hands off of children who won't conform.

Is it your position that:

They only exist inside my head, therefor they don't exist in your reality since you've somehow transcended suffering.
The suffering they experience is only in their head and a result of "seeking" something (mainly freedom)?
The don't really suffer if I don't think they're suffering?

I'm still confused as to how atrocities in the world that I know very little about yet still exist is somehow the result of my own personal thought process.  I don't personally suffer as a result of the existence of child armies, but I can promise that the 8 year old who got their arm cut off certainly is.  And to say it is simply a product of their own mind is nonsense.  To deny their existence is deplorable.




I think we're talking about two different kinds of suffering here. As the Buddha [supposedly] said:

"Life is pain, the world is full of suffering, but the path to release from suffering has been found. There is salvation for those who go the way of the Buddha."

See how he mentions the world being full of suffering aside of the path of your own release from suffering?

Two different things man. Suffering always goes on in the world, always has. You suffer by those events if you choose to. You also suffer through simply being a human and dealing with your emotions. As was suggested in the OP:

"All you need to find out is you need a 7/10 or 8/10 ability to control your own mind"

I think he's onto something there personally. Perhaps with a greater level of control (actually I don't like the word control, as I don't think it's possible to 'control' the mind) focus the suffering decreases further. I suspect this to be the case.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: The truth is so simple, the sages were almost tricksters [Re: MrBlueYoMind]
    #22170750 - 08/31/15 07:16 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MrBlueYoMind said:
I would still like some clarification on the existence of child armies in Africa that cut the hands off of children who won't conform.

Is it your position that:

They only exist inside my head, therefor they don't exist in your reality since you've somehow transcended suffering.
The suffering they experience is only in their head and a result of "seeking" something (mainly freedom)?
The don't really suffer if I don't think they're suffering?

I'm still confused as to how atrocities in the world that I know very little about yet still exist is somehow the result of my own personal thought process.  I don't personally suffer as a result of the existence of child armies, but I can promise that the 8 year old who got their arm cut off certainly is.  And to say it is simply a product of their own mind is nonsense.  To deny their existence is deplorable.




My sentiments exactly. Thank you for saying that, Mister.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: The truth is so simple, the sages were almost tricksters [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #22170777 - 08/31/15 07:22 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Jsb, I think he's saying it's a little, well, off for comparatively rich white kids with computers to make declarations about suffering when there is very palpable and tangible suffering going on at multiple levels, at multiple locations.  I agree with him.  Everything is not all right.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Registered: 11/30/11
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Re: The truth is so simple, the sages were almost tricksters [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22170799 - 08/31/15 07:27 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Ah I see. I missed the underlying subtlety there!

Thanks for pointing that out man. Yeah, I think the world is one big 'ol fuckin' ball of suffering myself, and I'm certainly not doing a lot to make it better (although I really try where I can). I guess I think that making a start on at least managing one's own suffering to the best of one's ability is a good a start as any!! Then you can spread love (why does that sound so fucking cliche?) as much as you can!


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: The truth is so simple, the sages were almost tricksters [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #22170822 - 08/31/15 07:32 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Yeah, I feel you there.  As they say, the best way to help others is to help oneself first.  A lot of people try to extend their sympathies and aid to others, when in fact they have not done enough work on themselves to qualify for that.  I also do what I can, when I can.

Frankly, I think participating in the Shroomery is putting a little bit of good into the world, honestly.  And at the very least it puts us in good stead as citizens of democracies.  It doesn't get a whole lot more democratic than this place! :smile:


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
Humble Student

Registered: 11/30/11
Posts: 26,088
Loc: Deep in the system Flag
Re: The truth is so simple, the sages were almost tricksters [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #22170851 - 08/31/15 07:38 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Frankly, I think participating in the Shroomery is putting a little bit of good into the world, honestly.



Yeah man, fuckin right on. I dream of a life where everything I do is putting a bit of good into the world, striving for anything less than that seems like a bloody wasted life to me. I feel quite secure in the fact I'll never make it there, but it's the trying with every breath that counts right?


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
Humble Student

Registered: 11/30/11
Posts: 26,088
Loc: Deep in the system Flag
Re: The truth is so simple, the sages were almost tricksters [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22170884 - 08/31/15 07:43 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
A lot of people try to extend their sympathies and aid to others, when in fact they have not done enough work on themselves to qualify for that.



I've also seen this come out in the most incredible ways. So often entirely non-conducive to what one is trying to achieve!


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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OfflineEggtimer
HotSauce Lover

Registered: 05/04/13
Posts: 3,097
Last seen: 3 days, 23 hours
Re: The truth is so simple, the sages were almost tricksters [Re: MrBlueYoMind]
    #22171518 - 08/31/15 09:53 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

HALP I'm a victim of my own suffering.
Help I'm suffering help help I"M suffering.

Stop trying to save the world and just start being. Sure if you see someone who needs help then help them. Trying to "civilize" and control peoples is what has caused this suffering.
"The white man's burden" and all the bullshit.
We are nature we come from the earth we are not civilizations. There's nothing wrong with that but the farther we get from our innate nature the more blind we become. 
My meaning of life is found by looking inward not outward. You will never find it out there until you find it in yourself. Once you do then it's everywhere you look.



I know it's a lot to read but if you want to understand this will help.
Quote:

The filial son who does not flatter his father, and the loyal minister who does not fawn on his ruler, are the highest examples of a minister and a son.
When a son assents to all that his father says, and approves of all that his father does, common opinion pronounces him an unworthy son; when a minister assents to all that his ruler says, and approves of all that his ruler does, common opinion pronounces him an unworthy minister. Nor does any one reflect that this view is necessarily correct.
But when common opinion (itself) affirms anything and men therefore assent to it, or counts anything good and men also approve of it, then it is not said that they are mere consenters and flatterers;-- is common opinion then more authoritative than a father, or more to be honoured than a ruler?
Tell a man that he is merely following (the opinions) of another, or that he is a flatterer of others, and at once he flushes with anger. And yet all his life he is merely following others, and flattering them. His illustrations are made to agree with theirs; his phrases are glossed:-- to win the approbation of the multitudes.
From first to last, from beginning to end, he finds no fault with their views. He will let his robes hang down, display the colours on them, and arrange his movements and bearing, so as to win the favour of his age, and yet not call himself a flatterer.
He is but a follower of those others, approving and disapproving as they do, and yet he will not say that he is one of them. This is the height of stupidity.

He who knows his stupidity is not very stupid; he who knows that he is under a delusion is not greatly deluded. He who is greatly deluded will never shake the delusion off; he who is very stupid will all his life not become intelligent.
If three men be walking together, and (only) one of them be under a delusion (as to their way), they may yet reach their goal, the deluded being the fewer; but if two of them be under the delusion, they will not do so, the deluded being the majority.
At the present time, when the whole world is under a delusion, though I pray men to go in the right direction, I cannot make them do so;-- is it not a sad case?

Grand music does not penetrate the ears of villagers; but if they hear 'The Breaking of the Willow,' or 'The Bright Flowers,' they will roar with laughter. So it is that lofty words do not remain in the minds of the multitude, and that perfect words are not heard, because the vulgar words predominate.
By two earthenware instruments the (music of) a bell will be confused, and the pleasure that it would afford cannot be obtained. At the present time the whole world is under a delusion, and though I wish to go in a certain direction, how can I succeed in doing so?
Knowing that I cannot do so, if I were to try to force my way, that would be another delusion. Therefore my best course is to let my purpose go, and no more pursue it. If I do not pursue it, whom shall I have to share in my sorrow?

If an ugly man have a son born to him at midnight, he hastens with a light to look at it. Very eagerly he does so, only afraid that it may be like himself.


'In the age of perfect virtue they attached no value to wisdom, nor employed men of ability. Superiors were (but) as the higher branches of a tree; and the people were like the deer of the wild.
They were upright and correct, without knowing that to be so was Righteousness; they loved one another, without knowing that to do so was Benevolence; they were honest and leal-hearted,
without knowing that it was Loyalty; they fulfilled their engagements, without knowing that to do so was Good Faith;
in their simple movements they employed the services of one another, without thinking that they were conferring or receiving any gift. Therefore their actions left no trace, and there was no record of their affairs.'

'I should like to hear about (the government of) the kindly, virtuous men,' (continued Yüan Fung). The reply was, 'Under the government of the virtuous, when quietly occupying (their place), they have no thought, and, when they act, they have no anxiety; they do not keep stored (in their minds) what is right and what is wrong, what is good and what is bad.
They share their benefits among all within the four seas, and this produces what is called (the state of) satisfaction; they dispense their gifts to all, and this produces what is called (the state of) rest.

(The people) grieve (on their death) like babies who have lost their mothers, and are perplexed like travellers who have lost their way. They have a superabundance of wealth and all necessaries,
and they know not whence it comes; they have a sufficiency of food and drink, and they know not from whom they get it:-- such are the appearances (under the government) of the kindly and virtuous.'

'I should like to hear about (the government of) the spirit-like men,' (continued Yüan Fung once more).

The reply was, 'Men of the highest spirit-like qualities mount up on the light, and (the limitations of) the body vanish. This we call being bright and ethereal. They carry out to the utmost the powers with which they are endowed, and have not a single attribute unexhausted.
Their joy is that of heaven and earth, and all embarrassments of affairs melt away and disappear; all things return to their proper nature:-- and this is what is called (the state of) chaotic obscurity.'







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Offlineresonant111
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Re: The truth is so simple, the sages were almost tricksters [Re: Eggtimer]
    #22172266 - 09/01/15 01:26 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)




^^^This is pretty much spot on, eggtimer knows what's up.
We only truly suffer when we run from the pain.

Otherwise it's just pain...a part of life.
Once you accept the ups AND the downs of life, the swings aren't so bad.

enlightenment isn't being in some permanently happy or euphoric state--it's simply accepting everything, without resistance. it's a deep deep awareness of our infinite nature.

the possibilities are limitless.


--------------------


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OfflineMrBlueYoMind
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Registered: 04/27/11
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Re: The truth is so simple, the sages were almost tricksters [Re: resonant111]
    #22174464 - 09/01/15 03:27 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

What a bunch of drivel.  Go tell the 8 year old who lost his arm that his suffering is in his mind.  Nowhere did I state that I was suffering.  No where did I state that it's a "white man's guilt."  I'm not talking about me, I'm talking about the people who don't have a chance to voice their side of the argument because they're busy getting tortured by those around them.
 
The fact of the matter is that people commit acts of evil, and it isn't just in the imagination that these acts occur.  Or are you saying "If they would have just submitted their will to the child army recruiters they wouldn't be suffering.  Problem solved!  Their suffering is of their own accord!"   

You can live in a eutopia inside your mind all you like, but that doesn't change reality.  All you're doing is putting up blinders, ignoring facts that might contradict your world view.  If your "truth" can't extend to all people, then it isn't a universal truth.  PERIOD.

Or are you going to redefine what suffering means in order to suit your premise more precisely?


--------------------
Confucius say: He who sticks drugs in butthole has head up ass. 
EVOLUTION REQUIRES REPRODUCTION


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Offlineresonant111
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Re: The truth is so simple, the sages were almost tricksters [Re: MrBlueYoMind]
    #22174502 - 09/01/15 03:38 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

my post was more about inner suffering caused by non-acceptance of one's self-created psychological pain.
yes, people cause other people quite a deal of physical pain and that's pretty messed up. part of that, i'm sure, is because they can't accept their own pain, so they make others suffer.

in the case of someone torturing you, obviously you would do everything in your power to change that situation.


--------------------


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OfflineMrBlueYoMind
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Re: The truth is so simple, the sages were almost tricksters [Re: resonant111]
    #22174658 - 09/01/15 04:19 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

My whole point is that suffering isn't as simple as it is being made out to be- a self-created product of ones own mind.  Clearly there are external sources of suffering. 

And to break it down to saying the person causing the suffering is because of their own mind is redundant as fuck.  EVERYTHING is the result of a mind at work, so the argument isn't insightful at all.  "That house is the product of the mind" well no shit, someone had to THINK of the blueprints and people had to MEASURE the wood, etc...  My reply was more intended for Eggtimer as he seemed to mock my argument rather than address it for what it was. 

We can probably agree that one of the root causes of suffering in the world is selfishness- which seems to be inherent to mankind.  One could be the most peaceful, loving, free-from-pain human being and then some asshole comes along and changes it in a second due to their own selfish nature.  An innocent child shot in a drive-bye for instance.  But the person/people suffering isn't at fault, so no matter how it is sliced it isn't a product of their OWN mind. 

I guess we're arguing different topics- physical suffering vs emotional suffering but even still there are forces that are external to ones own mind that come into play(unless you're into solipsism).  The loss of a loved one for example would create an emotional turmoil that is very real and driven by external forces.  One can use mental gymnastics to rationalize the reality of the situation but it still hurts.  If you're argument is about attachment/detachment then it seems like you're using dissociation as a coping strategy to deal with pain, which doesn't seem like a healthy "truth" at all.

And then there are people who just like hurting others for no reason at all...


--------------------
Confucius say: He who sticks drugs in butthole has head up ass. 
EVOLUTION REQUIRES REPRODUCTION


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Registered: 11/30/11
Posts: 26,088
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Re: The truth is so simple, the sages were almost tricksters [Re: MrBlueYoMind]
    #22174723 - 09/01/15 04:38 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MrBlueYoMind said:
And then there are people who just like hurting others for no reason at all...



I disagree. People hurt other people because of their own internal suffering, regardless of how visible to them it is or not IMO. I've seen lots of harm done to others in my time, and I can't see that any of it was without reason.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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OfflineMrBlueYoMind
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Re: The truth is so simple, the sages were almost tricksters [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #22174824 - 09/01/15 05:07 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

So you deny the existence of sociopaths/psychopaths?


--------------------
Confucius say: He who sticks drugs in butthole has head up ass. 
EVOLUTION REQUIRES REPRODUCTION


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Re: The truth is so simple, the sages were almost tricksters [Re: MrBlueYoMind]
    #22175321 - 09/01/15 07:19 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MrBlueYoMind said:
So you deny the existence of sociopaths/psychopaths?



Not at all, but even they have their reasons. What do you think creates those pathologies anyway? Suffering man. Extreme suffering at an age when a human is too young to rationalize it in any way, shape or form.

Surely you don't consider the management of one's own suffering to be a moot point? I'm totally with you on what you say regarding the suffering in the world. Like I said earlier, the whole world is a big ball of suffering IMO. But must you suffer for the suffering that goes on around you? If you can learn to transcend your suffering, so that you lower your risk of projecting it onto others, and can act in a more compassionate way, is that not a worthy cause?


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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OfflineMrBlueYoMind
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Re: The truth is so simple, the sages were almost tricksters [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #22175452 - 09/01/15 07:45 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Of course it is. 

I just can't comment on what goes on in the minds of sociopaths/psychopaths.  From my understanding they have a penchant for hurting things from an extremely young age, hurting animals for instance and it is impossible to make the claim that in every instance they are only projecting their own internal suffering to an external world.  I think there are probably some instances where people are simply fascinated by bringing pain to things separate from a coping mechanism, but then again that is presuming to know the mind of a socio/psychopath....

But I do like to believe that everybody is born good.  I'm just not sure that socio/psychopathy is merely a coping mechanism to internal suffering.  And if it is, is it the result of blocking out that suffering AKA using the mind to attempt to control things beyond the minds control?


--------------------
Confucius say: He who sticks drugs in butthole has head up ass. 
EVOLUTION REQUIRES REPRODUCTION


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Re: The truth is so simple, the sages were almost tricksters [Re: MrBlueYoMind]
    #22175501 - 09/01/15 07:56 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

I have only a limited understanding myself, but I'm pretty sure on the fact that it is a pretty well documented result of suffering. Rather than it being a blocking out, in the research I have read it seems to be a total lack of empathy and knowledge of what is right and wrong. So I'm totally with you; I think someone with those traits would be very likely to just be fascinated by harming others. If you didn't feel/think it was wrong, what's to stop you? But I contest that they still have their reasons; their [pretty much guaranteed] early abuse, and the fact that they could think about it [causing harm] so differently from you and I. I bet a lot of those child soldiers you mention would be diagnosable. I mean with that kinda shit going on around you, it's gonna mess you up. Messed up people mess other people up, ad infinitum.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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Offlineresonant111
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Re: The truth is so simple, the sages were almost tricksters [Re: MrBlueYoMind]
    #22175914 - 09/01/15 09:23 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MrBlueYoMind said:

I guess we're arguing different topics- physical suffering vs emotional suffering but even still there are forces that are external to ones own mind that come into play(unless you're into solipsism).  The loss of a loved one for example would create an emotional turmoil that is very real and driven by external forces.  One can use mental gymnastics to rationalize the reality of the situation but it still hurts.  If you're argument is about attachment/detachment then it seems like you're using dissociation as a coping strategy to deal with pain, which doesn't seem like a healthy "truth" at all.

And then there are people who just like hurting others for no reason at all...




of course external forces cause pain. i don't think anyone said otherwise?
the whole point i was making earlier is that when pain occurs (as in the case of the loved one dying) you don't run from that. you fully accept that deep pain within you. i'm talking about feelings here...when you feel pain, you accept the sensation of pain.

alot of people try to run from that sensation of pain....and that makes them truly suffer because it just eats and eats at them. it never gets resolved. they cover it up or run from it.

obviously external shit like people torturing each other physically...that's a whole different ballgame.


--------------------


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OfflineEggtimer
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Re: The truth is so simple, the sages were almost tricksters [Re: resonant111]
    #22176256 - 09/01/15 10:30 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

resonant111 said:
Quote:

MrBlueYoMind said:

I guess we're arguing different topics- physical suffering vs emotional suffering but even still there are forces that are external to ones own mind that come into play(unless you're into solipsism).  The loss of a loved one for example would create an emotional turmoil that is very real and driven by external forces.  One can use mental gymnastics to rationalize the reality of the situation but it still hurts.  If you're argument is about attachment/detachment then it seems like you're using dissociation as a coping strategy to deal with pain, which doesn't seem like a healthy "truth" at all.

And then there are people who just like hurting others for no reason at all...




of course external forces cause pain. i don't think anyone said otherwise?
the whole point i was making earlier is that when pain occurs (as in the case of the loved one dying) you don't run from that. you fully accept that deep pain within you. i'm talking about feelings here...when you feel pain, you accept the sensation of pain.

alot of people try to run from that sensation of pain....and that makes them truly suffer because it just eats and eats at them. it never gets resolved. they cover it up or run from it.

obviously external shit like people torturing each other physically...that's a whole different ballgame.



^
This.
People who run don't understand that if you stop running stillness and bliss comes. So they keep running never to find peace and think the world is a mess and everything is fucked. It's only fucked because everyone has agreed it's fucked. Enslavement by choice.
If you're experiencing something then you are meant to experience it. It's 4billion years of evolution at work.
When you start labeling things as positive and negative then you miss the fullness of your current experience which is all there is and will ever be.
Yesterday is only a memory and tomorrow never comes.

How do I know? I used to suffer nonstop everyday all day then slowly I realized I was the cause of my own suffering. You hold the keys to your chains! no one else but you
Torture me, mutilate me, or enslave me it doesn't matter I am always free.
Nothing has changed in my situation but I no longer suffer. I no longer fear. Constant anxiety, dread, and depression are gone. The world as fucked up as it may seem is only fucked up because people have agreed it is fucked up yet do nothing about it.
Business as usual!


Feel your creature behind your eyes,
between your ears, ethereal vibrations
It pulses, it pushes, it beats,
minds are battlefields
Resist to atomization, or fall into meaningless
one last chance to reconnect with the air

Wheel the sun
ABOVE THE UNWORTHY
slowly turning in unending circle
Wheel the sun
we're creeping backward
barely aware of ourselves

New thoughts of disruption,
altered visions, glimpse of reality
Inner devastating urge,
irrepressible search
of some more source of truth
Enlightens humanity's paths

Wheel the sun
ABOVE THE UNWORTHY
slowly turning in unending circle
Wheel the sun
we're creeping backward
barely aware of ourselves

Without voice, any critical removed
plundered words, waving in superstitions
Any further investigation denied
traditions never move, or die

We forgot the taste of light, lost in uselessness
reason anesthetized by overstimulated emotions
What a wonderful knowledge, we withered in decades
reason anesthetized by overstimulated emotions
Slowly hanged to the cranes of ego
reason anesthetized by overstimulated emotions
What a wonderful knowledge, we withered in decades
reason anesthetized by overstimulated emotions

Imperfect products, socially engineered
indoctrinated to disbelieve in future
Their end is a piece of art
Apathetic spectators of our own funeral
indoctrinated to disbelieve in future
The end is a piece of art

Wheel the sun
ABOVE THE UNWORTHY
slowly turning in unending circle
Wheel the sun
we're creeping backward
barely aware of ourselves

Traditions never move, or die
We are the origin of all evil


--------------------
It's all for the :lol:s


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