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Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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OfflineMrBlueYoMind
Don't do drugs (Without me)

Registered: 04/27/11
Posts: 3,753
Last seen: 1 month, 25 days
Re: The truth is so simple, the sages were almost tricksters [Re: resonant111]
    #22174464 - 09/01/15 03:27 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

What a bunch of drivel.  Go tell the 8 year old who lost his arm that his suffering is in his mind.  Nowhere did I state that I was suffering.  No where did I state that it's a "white man's guilt."  I'm not talking about me, I'm talking about the people who don't have a chance to voice their side of the argument because they're busy getting tortured by those around them.
 
The fact of the matter is that people commit acts of evil, and it isn't just in the imagination that these acts occur.  Or are you saying "If they would have just submitted their will to the child army recruiters they wouldn't be suffering.  Problem solved!  Their suffering is of their own accord!"   

You can live in a eutopia inside your mind all you like, but that doesn't change reality.  All you're doing is putting up blinders, ignoring facts that might contradict your world view.  If your "truth" can't extend to all people, then it isn't a universal truth.  PERIOD.

Or are you going to redefine what suffering means in order to suit your premise more precisely?


--------------------
Confucius say: He who sticks drugs in butthole has head up ass. 
EVOLUTION REQUIRES REPRODUCTION


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Offlineresonant111
left ∞ right

Registered: 03/02/11
Posts: 1,952
Loc: IL
Last seen: 2 years, 1 month
Re: The truth is so simple, the sages were almost tricksters [Re: MrBlueYoMind]
    #22174502 - 09/01/15 03:38 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

my post was more about inner suffering caused by non-acceptance of one's self-created psychological pain.
yes, people cause other people quite a deal of physical pain and that's pretty messed up. part of that, i'm sure, is because they can't accept their own pain, so they make others suffer.

in the case of someone torturing you, obviously you would do everything in your power to change that situation.


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OfflineMrBlueYoMind
Don't do drugs (Without me)

Registered: 04/27/11
Posts: 3,753
Last seen: 1 month, 25 days
Re: The truth is so simple, the sages were almost tricksters [Re: resonant111]
    #22174658 - 09/01/15 04:19 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

My whole point is that suffering isn't as simple as it is being made out to be- a self-created product of ones own mind.  Clearly there are external sources of suffering. 

And to break it down to saying the person causing the suffering is because of their own mind is redundant as fuck.  EVERYTHING is the result of a mind at work, so the argument isn't insightful at all.  "That house is the product of the mind" well no shit, someone had to THINK of the blueprints and people had to MEASURE the wood, etc...  My reply was more intended for Eggtimer as he seemed to mock my argument rather than address it for what it was. 

We can probably agree that one of the root causes of suffering in the world is selfishness- which seems to be inherent to mankind.  One could be the most peaceful, loving, free-from-pain human being and then some asshole comes along and changes it in a second due to their own selfish nature.  An innocent child shot in a drive-bye for instance.  But the person/people suffering isn't at fault, so no matter how it is sliced it isn't a product of their OWN mind. 

I guess we're arguing different topics- physical suffering vs emotional suffering but even still there are forces that are external to ones own mind that come into play(unless you're into solipsism).  The loss of a loved one for example would create an emotional turmoil that is very real and driven by external forces.  One can use mental gymnastics to rationalize the reality of the situation but it still hurts.  If you're argument is about attachment/detachment then it seems like you're using dissociation as a coping strategy to deal with pain, which doesn't seem like a healthy "truth" at all.

And then there are people who just like hurting others for no reason at all...


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Confucius say: He who sticks drugs in butthole has head up ass. 
EVOLUTION REQUIRES REPRODUCTION


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
Humble Student

Registered: 11/30/11
Posts: 26,088
Loc: Deep in the system Flag
Re: The truth is so simple, the sages were almost tricksters [Re: MrBlueYoMind]
    #22174723 - 09/01/15 04:38 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MrBlueYoMind said:
And then there are people who just like hurting others for no reason at all...



I disagree. People hurt other people because of their own internal suffering, regardless of how visible to them it is or not IMO. I've seen lots of harm done to others in my time, and I can't see that any of it was without reason.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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OfflineMrBlueYoMind
Don't do drugs (Without me)

Registered: 04/27/11
Posts: 3,753
Last seen: 1 month, 25 days
Re: The truth is so simple, the sages were almost tricksters [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #22174824 - 09/01/15 05:07 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

So you deny the existence of sociopaths/psychopaths?


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Confucius say: He who sticks drugs in butthole has head up ass. 
EVOLUTION REQUIRES REPRODUCTION


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
Humble Student

Registered: 11/30/11
Posts: 26,088
Loc: Deep in the system Flag
Re: The truth is so simple, the sages were almost tricksters [Re: MrBlueYoMind]
    #22175321 - 09/01/15 07:19 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MrBlueYoMind said:
So you deny the existence of sociopaths/psychopaths?



Not at all, but even they have their reasons. What do you think creates those pathologies anyway? Suffering man. Extreme suffering at an age when a human is too young to rationalize it in any way, shape or form.

Surely you don't consider the management of one's own suffering to be a moot point? I'm totally with you on what you say regarding the suffering in the world. Like I said earlier, the whole world is a big ball of suffering IMO. But must you suffer for the suffering that goes on around you? If you can learn to transcend your suffering, so that you lower your risk of projecting it onto others, and can act in a more compassionate way, is that not a worthy cause?


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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OfflineMrBlueYoMind
Don't do drugs (Without me)

Registered: 04/27/11
Posts: 3,753
Last seen: 1 month, 25 days
Re: The truth is so simple, the sages were almost tricksters [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #22175452 - 09/01/15 07:45 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Of course it is. 

I just can't comment on what goes on in the minds of sociopaths/psychopaths.  From my understanding they have a penchant for hurting things from an extremely young age, hurting animals for instance and it is impossible to make the claim that in every instance they are only projecting their own internal suffering to an external world.  I think there are probably some instances where people are simply fascinated by bringing pain to things separate from a coping mechanism, but then again that is presuming to know the mind of a socio/psychopath....

But I do like to believe that everybody is born good.  I'm just not sure that socio/psychopathy is merely a coping mechanism to internal suffering.  And if it is, is it the result of blocking out that suffering AKA using the mind to attempt to control things beyond the minds control?


--------------------
Confucius say: He who sticks drugs in butthole has head up ass. 
EVOLUTION REQUIRES REPRODUCTION


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
Humble Student

Registered: 11/30/11
Posts: 26,088
Loc: Deep in the system Flag
Re: The truth is so simple, the sages were almost tricksters [Re: MrBlueYoMind]
    #22175501 - 09/01/15 07:56 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

I have only a limited understanding myself, but I'm pretty sure on the fact that it is a pretty well documented result of suffering. Rather than it being a blocking out, in the research I have read it seems to be a total lack of empathy and knowledge of what is right and wrong. So I'm totally with you; I think someone with those traits would be very likely to just be fascinated by harming others. If you didn't feel/think it was wrong, what's to stop you? But I contest that they still have their reasons; their [pretty much guaranteed] early abuse, and the fact that they could think about it [causing harm] so differently from you and I. I bet a lot of those child soldiers you mention would be diagnosable. I mean with that kinda shit going on around you, it's gonna mess you up. Messed up people mess other people up, ad infinitum.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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Offlineresonant111
left ∞ right

Registered: 03/02/11
Posts: 1,952
Loc: IL
Last seen: 2 years, 1 month
Re: The truth is so simple, the sages were almost tricksters [Re: MrBlueYoMind]
    #22175914 - 09/01/15 09:23 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MrBlueYoMind said:

I guess we're arguing different topics- physical suffering vs emotional suffering but even still there are forces that are external to ones own mind that come into play(unless you're into solipsism).  The loss of a loved one for example would create an emotional turmoil that is very real and driven by external forces.  One can use mental gymnastics to rationalize the reality of the situation but it still hurts.  If you're argument is about attachment/detachment then it seems like you're using dissociation as a coping strategy to deal with pain, which doesn't seem like a healthy "truth" at all.

And then there are people who just like hurting others for no reason at all...




of course external forces cause pain. i don't think anyone said otherwise?
the whole point i was making earlier is that when pain occurs (as in the case of the loved one dying) you don't run from that. you fully accept that deep pain within you. i'm talking about feelings here...when you feel pain, you accept the sensation of pain.

alot of people try to run from that sensation of pain....and that makes them truly suffer because it just eats and eats at them. it never gets resolved. they cover it up or run from it.

obviously external shit like people torturing each other physically...that's a whole different ballgame.


--------------------


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OfflineEggtimer
HotSauce Lover

Registered: 05/04/13
Posts: 3,097
Last seen: 4 days, 3 hours
Re: The truth is so simple, the sages were almost tricksters [Re: resonant111]
    #22176256 - 09/01/15 10:30 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

resonant111 said:
Quote:

MrBlueYoMind said:

I guess we're arguing different topics- physical suffering vs emotional suffering but even still there are forces that are external to ones own mind that come into play(unless you're into solipsism).  The loss of a loved one for example would create an emotional turmoil that is very real and driven by external forces.  One can use mental gymnastics to rationalize the reality of the situation but it still hurts.  If you're argument is about attachment/detachment then it seems like you're using dissociation as a coping strategy to deal with pain, which doesn't seem like a healthy "truth" at all.

And then there are people who just like hurting others for no reason at all...




of course external forces cause pain. i don't think anyone said otherwise?
the whole point i was making earlier is that when pain occurs (as in the case of the loved one dying) you don't run from that. you fully accept that deep pain within you. i'm talking about feelings here...when you feel pain, you accept the sensation of pain.

alot of people try to run from that sensation of pain....and that makes them truly suffer because it just eats and eats at them. it never gets resolved. they cover it up or run from it.

obviously external shit like people torturing each other physically...that's a whole different ballgame.



^
This.
People who run don't understand that if you stop running stillness and bliss comes. So they keep running never to find peace and think the world is a mess and everything is fucked. It's only fucked because everyone has agreed it's fucked. Enslavement by choice.
If you're experiencing something then you are meant to experience it. It's 4billion years of evolution at work.
When you start labeling things as positive and negative then you miss the fullness of your current experience which is all there is and will ever be.
Yesterday is only a memory and tomorrow never comes.

How do I know? I used to suffer nonstop everyday all day then slowly I realized I was the cause of my own suffering. You hold the keys to your chains! no one else but you
Torture me, mutilate me, or enslave me it doesn't matter I am always free.
Nothing has changed in my situation but I no longer suffer. I no longer fear. Constant anxiety, dread, and depression are gone. The world as fucked up as it may seem is only fucked up because people have agreed it is fucked up yet do nothing about it.
Business as usual!


Feel your creature behind your eyes,
between your ears, ethereal vibrations
It pulses, it pushes, it beats,
minds are battlefields
Resist to atomization, or fall into meaningless
one last chance to reconnect with the air

Wheel the sun
ABOVE THE UNWORTHY
slowly turning in unending circle
Wheel the sun
we're creeping backward
barely aware of ourselves

New thoughts of disruption,
altered visions, glimpse of reality
Inner devastating urge,
irrepressible search
of some more source of truth
Enlightens humanity's paths

Wheel the sun
ABOVE THE UNWORTHY
slowly turning in unending circle
Wheel the sun
we're creeping backward
barely aware of ourselves

Without voice, any critical removed
plundered words, waving in superstitions
Any further investigation denied
traditions never move, or die

We forgot the taste of light, lost in uselessness
reason anesthetized by overstimulated emotions
What a wonderful knowledge, we withered in decades
reason anesthetized by overstimulated emotions
Slowly hanged to the cranes of ego
reason anesthetized by overstimulated emotions
What a wonderful knowledge, we withered in decades
reason anesthetized by overstimulated emotions

Imperfect products, socially engineered
indoctrinated to disbelieve in future
Their end is a piece of art
Apathetic spectators of our own funeral
indoctrinated to disbelieve in future
The end is a piece of art

Wheel the sun
ABOVE THE UNWORTHY
slowly turning in unending circle
Wheel the sun
we're creeping backward
barely aware of ourselves

Traditions never move, or die
We are the origin of all evil


--------------------
It's all for the :lol:s


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