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Invisiblefour20snakeman
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the cop's arm span search
    #2215485 - 01/02/04 05:27 PM (20 years, 30 days ago)

Let's say you get pulled over. The cop does an arm span search, but your glove box is locked because you have your bag of grass in it, but the cop doesn't know it's there for a fact. Now, in an arm span search, they are supposed to be looking in places that are easily accessible to the occupants of the car. Does anyone know if the cop is allowed to unlock or make you unlock the dash so it can be searched too. especially if there is only one key to the car, the one that was in the ignition while driving?

thanks alot


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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: the cop's arm span search [Re: four20snakeman]
    #2215967 - 01/02/04 11:25 PM (20 years, 29 days ago)

I" Don't have a key to that msr oscifer"


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InvisibleDatDaNK420
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Re: the cop's arm span search [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #2216109 - 01/03/04 01:02 AM (20 years, 29 days ago)

My old car used to have a lock on gas cover. I'd just shove me stash in there and they never looked.


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Invisiblefour20snakeman
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Re: the cop's arm span search [Re: DatDaNK420]
    #2216300 - 01/03/04 05:36 AM (20 years, 29 days ago)

the car only uses one key. it opens the doors, trunk, dash, and works the ignition. So actually telling the cop there is no key wont work. i was just wondering if they can search a locked dash, i know they can search an unlocked one.

I have a gas cap that locks and has a compartment in it for money, spare key, used condoms, etc. But i am asking on the legality of a locked glove box search, not where to hide my stash. Besides, whatever gets put in it picks up the smell of gasoline, which would be bad for a bag of nuggets.



EDIT* i just re-read this post and it sounds a little harsh. that isn't the feeling i am trying to convey.


Edited by four20snakeman (01/03/04 05:40 AM)


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OfflineGranola
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Re: the cop's arm span search [Re: four20snakeman]
    #2216546 - 01/03/04 10:59 AM (20 years, 29 days ago)

there is no such thing as an arm span search, if it isnt in plain sight or there is no probable cause then he may not place an arm into your window.


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Invisibletoxick
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Re: the cop's arm span search [Re: Granola]
    #2216649 - 01/03/04 12:14 PM (20 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

if it isnt in plain sight or there is no probable cause then he may not place an arm into your window.




as far as I know, this is correct. He may as well have just searched your car without permission.

talk to a lawyer about it. if he says the cop is in the clear, talk to a DIFFERENT lawyer.


--------------------
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Invisiblefour20snakeman
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Re: the cop's arm span search [Re: toxick]
    #2216769 - 01/03/04 01:51 PM (20 years, 29 days ago)

Nah, it didn't happen. i was just wondering if it could happen. i thought about it coming home from a party, and my stash was in the dash. which was locked. i had a sober driver, which is always a great idea, should be the only idea. :thumbup: After i thought about it, and didn't find an answer, i figured i might ask here.


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OfflineGranola
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Re: the cop's arm span search [Re: four20snakeman]
    #2218182 - 01/04/04 09:59 AM (20 years, 28 days ago)

it's like with drug dogs, they are cops, they can sniff around the outside of a vehicle until the point that they 'hit' on something, better hope there's no beef jerkey in the trunk

where did you come up with the 'arm span search' anyway. I did actualy have a cop try that crap with me once and have heard of others doing it. I never carry anything in the care but I like to inconvience the cops with 'get a warrant'


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OfflineChiefThunderbong
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Re: the cop's arm span search [Re: four20snakeman]
    #2218626 - 01/04/04 02:49 PM (20 years, 28 days ago)

I'm guessing that an "arm span search" is just another term for a cop pressuring you into consenting to a search. The ONLY legal search a cop can perform without consent would be to ask you to step out of the car and pat down your person to check for weapons, a law set up to protect the officers safety. I've read a case or two concerning such searches, where the officer found drugs while performing a pat down for his safety, the law is very unclear whether or not plain touch is the same as plain sight. (IE, if the cop feels a small baggy of "something" in your pocket....he knows it is not a weapon, does he have the right to further investigate?) As for the glovebox, no he can not search it without your consent. However, keep in mind that often your registration and insurance card are located in the glovebox (maybe you don't keep them there), never ever keep your illegal things in the same location as your id/registration.


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Invisiblefour20snakeman
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Re: the cop's arm span search [Re: ChiefThunderbong]
    #2219201 - 01/04/04 08:46 PM (20 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

ChiefThunderbong said:
However, keep in mind that often your registration and insurance card are located in the glovebox (maybe you don't keep them there), never ever keep your illegal things in the same location as your id/registration.




That is a good point. I know more than enough people that have been busted for this very reason. Forgetting your info is with your stash is a bad idea. I keep all my info above the driver side visor. that way i never have to worry about a cop seeing anything when i reach for it. plus always having it in the same handy spot keep the officer from having as much time to peer around while you search for it.


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Offlinenife
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Re: the cop's arm span search [Re: four20snakeman]
    #2219988 - 01/05/04 06:04 AM (20 years, 27 days ago)

Correct response to any cop asking if he can search your car is "Ask my lawyer." and then shut up. Hehe yeah i know this makes you seem like an ass to the cop and you will get whatever ticket you were pulled over for, but a lot of cops won't seach then because they probably don't have cause.


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OfflineChiefThunderbong
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Re: the cop's arm span search [Re: nife]
    #2228918 - 01/08/04 04:32 PM (20 years, 24 days ago)

The correct response would actually be "No sir, I'm sorry but I can not consent to any search of my person or property. I don't feel I have done anything wrong to warrant such a search." Possibly mention something about being a firm believer in the fourth amendment. Never, ever tell a cop to shut up. The more you talk back and act like a dick the lower your chances of driving away are. You should act like a responsible, law abiding citizen who has nothing to hide. Don't act nervous, don't act like you dislike cops, don't mention a lawyer untill your placed under arrest.
$10 says if you tell a cop to ask your lawyer if he can search your car he's gonna walk back to his car and call in the k-9.


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Offlinenife
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Re: the cop's arm span search [Re: ChiefThunderbong]
    #2230080 - 01/09/04 12:01 AM (20 years, 23 days ago)

Nope actually if you tell him politely to talk to your lawyer before he continues a search he is obligated to, assuming he doesn't have a search warrent. I carry a card with my lawyers name and number on it. I never meant be rude about it. I was just too lazy to type the whole thing. heheh I guess laziness is a killer. But you like CheifThunderBong said don't be rude. Explain that you don't think you need to be searched and that if the cop feels differently he can explain the justification to your laywer. NEVER be rude to a cop thats the bottom line. If you are polite but firm that you do not think that a search is warrented then most likely they will not press the matter.

BTW for a k-9 search they need your permission or a search warrent. So the same still holds they have to ask you or get a judge to sign a search warrent. Without cause. at least as far as I've ben told by my lawyer. This could be wrong or just hold true for certian circumstances


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Edited by nife (01/09/04 12:03 AM)


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Invisiblefour20snakeman
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Re: the cop's arm span search [Re: nife]
    #2230136 - 01/09/04 12:41 AM (20 years, 23 days ago)

Plus, if they want to hold you until a K-9 arrives, they must either already have proof of you carrying drugs, or very reasonable doubt that they can prove in court.

Not that i count on any of that to help me out when pulled over. If we are realistic, a cop will do whatever he thinks he can. he will lie in court on you, he will abuse your rights, and he will get away with it if there is no proof that he did. Fucking pigs. they make me sick, especially when they abuse thei r power.


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Offlinewindex
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Re: the cop's arm span search [Re: four20snakeman]
    #2230169 - 01/09/04 01:05 AM (20 years, 23 days ago)

Yeah about all that.... in order to get a license in Indiana you have to sign several papers, one states that if they feel like they have sufficient reason to search and say no, your car gets towed because you've already said that if they want to search they can by signing the paper.

And of course once its in their possesion they can search however they like.

Thats what one of the papers I had to sign for my license said anyway...


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: the cop's arm span search [Re: windex]
    #2230466 - 01/09/04 06:04 AM (20 years, 23 days ago)

> in order to get a license in Indiana you have to sign several papers, one states that if they feel like they have sufficient reason to search and say no

In Colorado you have to sign something similiar giving up your rights if they suspect you of drunk driving. If you refuse to take a BAC test at the station, you loose your drivers license. I still don't see how these "forced confessions" stand? When I made a big stink about it when I was getting my license, they claim that driving is a privledge, not a right... therefore, they can require you to give up your legal, constitutional rights against self incrimination, in order to have the privledge of driving. Total bullshit... which is partly why I moved to a different country.


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OfflineChiefThunderbong
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Re: the cop's arm span search [Re: windex]
    #2230833 - 01/09/04 11:05 AM (20 years, 23 days ago)

Are you sure you signed something that takes away your 4th amendment right? I've never heard of that at all. I'm familiar with the thing you sign that says you will submit to a breathlyzer and all that good stuff, but nothing about search and seizure. If your right, thats a such a horrible violation of your rights....I would never have signed that. I'm glad the drunk driving thing is in existence though.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: the cop's arm span search [Re: ChiefThunderbong]
    #2231113 - 01/09/04 01:01 PM (20 years, 23 days ago)

> I'm glad the drunk driving thing is in existence though.

You are glad that a cop, without any cause what-so-ever, can haul you into the station and force you to take a BAC test? You have no right to a lawyer, you have no right to council, you have one chance to blow in the tube, or you loose your license for a year without the right to an appeal. If you blow clean, you still have to pay for a taxi home, you still have to pay for the tow truck, and you still have to pay to get your car out of impound... which was searched after they towed it, again with no cause... all because you signed something in order to legally drive in the first place? Step back and look at the big picture my friend. I have no love for drunk drivers, or people that drive when they shouldn't, but giving up so many rights in the name of MADD is just stupid. (... and in case anybody is wondering, I have never had a single moving violation in the 15-odd years that I have been driving. This isn't about me getting busted in the past, or any other such nonsense, but rather about me not wanting to give up my rights to the system.)


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OfflineChiefThunderbong
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Re: the cop's arm span search [Re: Seuss]
    #2231329 - 01/09/04 02:13 PM (20 years, 23 days ago)

I definatly see your point. I only said that because I live in a college town, and the amount of accidents I see is sickening. At LEAST one per day. Also, I've never heard of a cop using the drunk thing unreasonably....I suppose it could happen, just never heard of it.


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Offlineorizon
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Re: the cop's arm span search [Re: Seuss]
    #2232766 - 01/10/04 03:44 AM (20 years, 22 days ago)

???...Ive never heard of this document that you sign that gives up your fourth amendment. Then again there is alot of stuff the authorities can do that violate your rights like this new "patriotic act I and II" or something like that where they can just walk in your house without a warrant and search!!. But anyways, when I got my license at the age of 16, Im sure I signed some papers that I didnt really know what they were exactly saying because I was nieve and anxious to get my license but do you know if this document is effective in FLorida?
Just as a side note....I have heard of cops violating rights all the time and unless you have them on video or audio, its basically your word verse there's and will just dissolve into nothing when it gets to court resulting in a waste of time. The best you can do is file a complaint and hopefully if eneouph complaints rack up, they might take action. I just hide my shit really good and keep my car really dirty so when they peek inside, the most they'll do is just move a few things around after I innocently say, "search all you want". Once i get my car wired, I wont do this anymore....but for now IMO if you act suspicious, they will suspect something and eventually work there way into searching all they want. I've been asked to be searched 3 times and each time not only did I not get a ticket for what I was stopped for but I was only held for 5 minutes while the cop just looked in the glove box and peeked in the backseat....this is not always the case but for now is my best option.


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Offlinevalour
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Re: the cop's arm span search [Re: orizon]
    #2233302 - 01/10/04 01:41 PM (20 years, 22 days ago)

Giving the cops the right to search anything is about the equivalent of giving a vampire entrance to your home. It's pretty much an all or nothing proposition, IMEx.


--------------------
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I didn't sell out-
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OfflineGranola
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Re: the cop's arm span search [Re: nife]
    #2235114 - 01/11/04 04:48 PM (20 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

nife said:
Nope actually if you tell him politely to talk to your lawyer before he continues a search he is obligated to, assuming he doesn't have a search warrent./quote]

Probable Cause, all he needs is the ability to articulate suspicion that you are in possession of contraband, things like drugs, illegal aliens and excessive amounts of money. Warrant not needed and cops are notorious for making up laws on the spot to coerce you into a consentual search (CS can be revoked at any time)and having a lawyer does no good on the road side, to use that ploy you will be going to jail.


Quote:

Explain that you don't think you need to be searched and that if the cop feels differently he can explain the justification to your laywer. NEVER be rude to a cop thats the bottom line. If you are polite but firm that you do not think that a search is warrented then most likely they will not press the matter.




They will push it in many instances, with or with out a warrant, they base it on the way you look, tatoos, long hair, piercings and a list of other crap. Discrimination? sort of, it's profiling. Regardless of how polite you are some cops will push it and the first time you mention 'lawyer' but your ass he will push further and harder.

Quote:

BTW for a k-9 search they need your permission or a search warrent. So the same still holds they have to ask you or get a judge to sign a search warrent. Without cause. at least as far as I've ben told by my lawyer. This could be wrong or just hold true for certian circumstances




The US Supreme court made a ruling determining that if you are stopped for a standard traffic stop, the cop can hold you for up to an hour to wait for a K-9 unit. Once your license is returned during a stop you are then free to leave, if he detains you longer he has violated your rights.

You can refuse to stay if your ID is back in your posession but the cop can give you a Hobsons Choice, the cop gives you the option to leave but your car has to remain. Outrageous you say, well aparently it's legal and then they have all the time they want to get a K-9

Most cops follow department policy for K-9 searches, it's usualy stricter than the law. Generaly the dog is used as a threat, if you fold and consent he knows you have something he may wait for the dog to make it easy or may have been bluffing. You hold your ground and K-9 arrives and the handler has the option to refuse the K-9 'sniff'
(law dictates that any thing detected from the outside of the vehicle gives Probable Cause to do a search).

K-9 is a cop, it doesn't have the right to enter the vehicle unless he 'hits' on something.

Do not have drugs in your car, do not have them on your person while you are driving. Leave them at home. Should it be unaviodable and you must carry something in your car, place it in a difficult to access area of the car thats on the out side, this gives you a little opening for 'it's not mine and I have no idea'. Even a bad lawyer can get you off on that one. and never ever ever mention selling anything or narc out anyone.


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OfflineGranola
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Re: the cop's arm span search [Re: valour]
    #2235120 - 01/11/04 04:54 PM (20 years, 21 days ago)

I've given and refused permission for a search lots of times, it's no big deal hust know that your clean or have an out, some wont even search if you talk with them a little, listen for their little traps like asking if you are in posession of and drugs, guns, grenades or what ever, crack a joke back that doesnt involve donuts.


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Invisibleplura16
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Re: the cop's arm span search [Re: four20snakeman]
    #2253371 - 01/19/04 04:09 PM (20 years, 13 days ago)

theres something called "specific and articulable facts". this means they cant be all " hmm he looks suspicious - lets search or bust his ass." they need to have something on you - you know -- however theres also the real world of police unfortonately.(usually they try and do wtf they wanna do -- relying on the fact that they think you dont know shit about the laws-- which is most likely true for most of us)

if a cop trys to "arm span" his arm into your ride -- fingerspan your finger to the window button, and crunch his forearm in the window.

then act like you were looking for your wallet.

peace


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: the cop's arm span search [Re: plura16]
    #2255136 - 01/20/04 04:38 AM (20 years, 12 days ago)

> your finger to the window button, and crunch his forearm in the window

With some of todays trigger happy police, that is a good way to get shot.


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OfflineMagus
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Re: the cop's arm span search [Re: four20snakeman]
    #2284411 - 01/29/04 03:11 PM (20 years, 3 days ago)

Ive heard of Arm Span Searches. The justification for them is that if you have a gun you could hide it anywhere within your arm span. Thus, if the officer has reason to believe you are a threat, they can search for a weapon. Same logic behind pat-downs. That's how I think the theory goes at least.

At any rate, if that's true, then cops will abuse it. Well duh.

http://www.erowid.org/freedom/police/police_consent1.shtml

There's an interesting article about what cops can and can't do, and the best way to say no to a situation where a cop pulls you over and wants to search your car.


--------------------
Disclaimer:

1. When I use the word "I", it means a friend of a friend wants me to ask. The word "I" simply cuts down on the amount of letters I need to type.

2. I do not engage in illegal activities. I am appaled by all of you and your apparent disregard for the law.


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