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shLong



Registered: 03/04/10
Posts: 25,330
Loc: 'sconsin
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Old-school military veterans in comparison to modern vets
#22150390 - 08/27/15 08:54 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Is it just me, or does anyone else sense a major difference between the two?
To me, it seems like the old school vets would actually be alright to sit down with and get drunk with and walk away feeling richer for the experience...whereas a lot of the more recent vets I think I'd rather just avoid.
Maybe it's just because I actually know modern vets in their 'youth' vs old men vets of old wars.
Do you think it's just a case of observation bias on my part, or do you think the whole military experience is just that much different now making (or attracting) colossal douchebags to the ranks?
I'm in no way trying to dog on the members here who have served, as the ones I know actually seem like good people (Trekie for example)..but the majority of vets I actually know IRL are people who I'd rather just avoid.
and please spare me the "you're so ungrateful for their service" BS... 
This is something I've been pondering this morning and want other opinions on.
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dionysiandame
Mischievous Maenad


Registered: 08/27/13
Posts: 324
Loc: Samothrace
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Re: Old-school military veterans in comparison to modern vets [Re: shLong] 4
#22150496 - 08/27/15 09:18 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Hmm, I think there are many facets to this. I think age probably plays a major factor in this. Most people tend to mellow out as they get older, so all the insecurity-fueled posturing flies out of the window.
I also think many modern vets are having to face a reception similar to the soldiers unfortunate enough to end up in Vietnam. Immediately following 9/11 there was a barrage of pro-military jingoism and hero worship that was, frankly, alarming and a bit scary. This fervor provided an emotional safety net; at least one had citizenry backing them in what they are doing. Now? Not so much. Young men and women returning from war are considered after thoughts at best and murderers at worst. Neglected by the public that had no problem sending them to war, it has to cause some form of...dissonance.
You're told you're protecting freedom for the populace and the same populace can give two fucks as long as they get their Starbucks.
I've encountered my fair share of young vets (because of where I live) and there sometimes seems to be a simmering anger. They're supposed to be heroes, but the triumph doesn't come anymore. "You signed up for it. Our tax dollars pay for it. Piss off." Couple that with a lackluster mental health care system, the feeling of isolation that can affect anyone having returned from war, and the realization that the government they fought for doesn't really care?
I understand that anger.
-------------------- He (Dionysos) keeps me with all of his other pretty things for I am just another pretty thing in a long list of acquisitions. Yes! And their brains are releasing adrenaline, dopamine, even dimethyltryptamine from the pineal gland! This has serious educational value! Thanatophobia and this N.D.E. is giving us euphoric altered awareness! Don't you see, Princess? We were all born to die! – Finn the Human Pay me what you owe me. Don't act like you forgot. BBHMM.
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SoupSandwich



Registered: 12/08/14
Posts: 4,440
Loc: Lost
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Re: Old-school military veterans in comparison to modern vets [Re: dionysiandame]
#22150503 - 08/27/15 09:19 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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The drill sergeants cant even cuss now. If you have razor burn, poor baby, you're allowed not to shave.
Etc etc etc.
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SirShroomsAlott
Howdy



Registered: 05/15/14
Posts: 6,945
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Re: Old-school military veterans in comparison to modern vets [Re: shLong]
#22150544 - 08/27/15 09:26 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Older vets fought for our freedom, or at least some did. Now a days it seems like war is only for power or resources. Can't say that's what it is but I think it's at the very least a factor. Maybe I'm the one who's wrong but people my age say like "our soldiers are over there fighting for your freedom" and I never counter but in my head I'm always thinking, like no the fuck they aren't our freedom wasn't at risk and we invaded countries who weren't even involved in 9/11, freedom is the last reason we went there.
That and with tv and media outlets that weren't readily available back in the day, I feel like it's easier to brainwash people with a type of blind patriotism, since you can bombard them with "fuck yeah, murica" shit on a daily basis.
I'm not knocking America or vets either, I still think America is a great country and I have no problem living here and realize a military force is an absolute necessity, but now a days you literally can not question our military actions without being "anti-america", maybe it used to be like that to, I really don't know, but now a days it seems like agree with every single thing they do overseas or you're anti-troops/america. That and lately a lot of the ones I met are arrogant as fuck, which IMO is a result of calling them all heroes and them then thinking they're heroes solely for being in the military, which I find stupid but again it's just my opinion.
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shLong



Registered: 03/04/10
Posts: 25,330
Loc: 'sconsin
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Re: Old-school military veterans in comparison to modern vets [Re: SirShroomsAlott]
#22150573 - 08/27/15 09:34 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Great post, dion... 
I also have those thoughts when people say they're fighting for our freedom.
I don't ever say anything, but I agree with that. WW2 was a different story, of course..
Also, perhaps because a lot of old vets were actually drafted as opposed to enlisted.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Old-school military veterans in comparison to modern vets [Re: SirShroomsAlott]
#22150659 - 08/27/15 10:04 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
SirShroomsAlott said: Older vets fought for our freedom, or at least some did. Now a days it seems like war is only for power or resources. Can't say that's what it is but I think it's at the very least a factor. Maybe I'm the one who's wrong but people my age say like "our soldiers are over there fighting for your freedom" and I never counter but in my head I'm always thinking, like no the fuck they aren't our freedom wasn't at risk and we invaded countries who weren't even involved in 9/11, freedom is the last reason we went there.
That and with tv and media outlets that weren't readily available back in the day, I feel like it's easier to brainwash people with a type of blind patriotism, since you can bombard them with "fuck yeah, murica" shit on a daily basis.
I'm not knocking America or vets either, I still think America is a great country and I have no problem living here and realize a military force is an absolute necessity, but now a days you literally can not question our military actions without being "anti-america", maybe it used to be like that to, I really don't know, but now a days it seems like agree with every single thing they do overseas or you're anti-troops/america. That and lately a lot of the ones I met are arrogant as fuck, which IMO is a result of calling them all heroes and them then thinking they're heroes solely for being in the military, which I find stupid but again it's just my opinion.
I don't know what older vets you are talking about here. Almost all of the WW2 guys are long gone as are the Korean War guys. The so called greatest generation got 50,000 of my generation killed for nothiing. The older vets now are the Vietnam War guys and I think most of them were draftees.
I question some of our actions. Like Libya. Idiocy.
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shLong



Registered: 03/04/10
Posts: 25,330
Loc: 'sconsin
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Re: Old-school military veterans in comparison to modern vets [Re: zappaisgod]
#22150707 - 08/27/15 10:14 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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I feel really shifty about how things went down for the men of your generation, ZIG.
Drafted in to Nam like that and then coming home to ridicule.
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shLong



Registered: 03/04/10
Posts: 25,330
Loc: 'sconsin
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Re: Old-school military veterans in comparison to modern vets [Re: shLong]
#22150724 - 08/27/15 10:16 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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After I graduated HS we were required to sign up for the draft or whatever..
I put it off a couple months and then remembered one day. Went online and filled it out, then not even a week later 9/11 happened and they were talking about possibly needing a draft  That shit had me spooked good.
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ShiVersblood
VAmPiRES HELLA ❤



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Re: Old-school military veterans in comparison to modern vets [Re: shLong]
#22150770 - 08/27/15 10:23 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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It seemed like the WWII vets not got pstd but the new vets always get it, it makes me wonder if more people are actually PTSD because of the fact that more people know about it thus perhaps making more people prone to getting it because of them knowing about it thus making them more vulnerable to it?
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TheGreenArrow
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Re: Old-school military veterans in comparison to modern vets [Re: ShiVersblood]
#22150786 - 08/27/15 10:26 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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War is Hell. Soldiers don't have a voice most of the time. In the 50's especially so. We couldn't wake my grandad up till the day he died without him wigging out. Today I've met close friends again and sat around at a party with them. It was harrowing the stories some vets have.
It wild to think we are this cruel to other humans.
-------------------- A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, conn a ship, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve an equation, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.- Robert A. Heinlein Saint RedBow of the Shroomey Loomey-Patron Saint of Sandbaggin Sumbitchs
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SirShroomsAlott
Howdy



Registered: 05/15/14
Posts: 6,945
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Re: Old-school military veterans in comparison to modern vets [Re: zappaisgod]
#22150795 - 08/27/15 10:28 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Yeah I phrased my comment poorly, I meant to include the WW2 vets because even if most aren't alive they were actually fighting for a noble cause/freedom, where people today are told it's for a noble cause or freedom when it's for other reasons almost every time. I meant to include the draftees in my comment but lately I've been fucking up my replies so bad because I don't have a computer and have to type everything from my phone which I'm not used to doing and I'm at work so I kind of rush reply without rereading what I typed.
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shLong



Registered: 03/04/10
Posts: 25,330
Loc: 'sconsin
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Re: Old-school military veterans in comparison to modern vets [Re: ShiVersblood]
#22150796 - 08/27/15 10:28 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stealth1Vampire said: It seemed like the WWII vets not got pstd but the new vets always get it, it makes me wonder if more people are actually PTSD because of the fact that more people know about it thus perhaps making more people prone to getting it because of them knowing about it thus making them more vulnerable to it?
I think it was still as abundant.. It was called "shell shocked" then.. It was likely more kept internal then for fear or looking weak or whatever.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Old-school military veterans in comparison to modern vets [Re: shLong]
#22150797 - 08/27/15 10:28 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
shLong said: I feel really shifty about how things went down for the men of your generation, ZIG.
Drafted in to Nam like that and then coming home to ridicule. 
My cousin didn't come home. On his first patrol, Marine, they lost him and he died a POW. "No man left behind" my ass.
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shLong



Registered: 03/04/10
Posts: 25,330
Loc: 'sconsin
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Re: Old-school military veterans in comparison to modern vets [Re: zappaisgod]
#22150804 - 08/27/15 10:30 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Old-school military veterans in comparison to modern vets [Re: shLong]
#22150820 - 08/27/15 10:33 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Yeah, it fucking sucked.
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Thayendanegea
quiet walker



Registered: 02/20/12
Posts: 7,596
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Re: Old-school military veterans in comparison to modern vets [Re: dionysiandame]
#22150824 - 08/27/15 10:33 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
I've encountered my fair share of young vets (because of where I live) and there sometimes seems to be a simmering anger. They're supposed to be heroes, but the triumph doesn't come anymore. "You signed up for it. Our tax dollars pay for it. Piss off." Couple that with a lackluster mental health care system, the feeling of isolation that can affect anyone having returned from war, and the realization that the government they fought for doesn't really care?
I understand that anger.
That very same paragraph could have been used in 1975 talking about the Vietnam vets returning.
-------------------- Look Deep Into Nature,and Then You Will Understand Everything Better. Albert Einstein
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ShiVersblood
VAmPiRES HELLA ❤



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Re: Old-school military veterans in comparison to modern vets [Re: Thayendanegea]
#22150838 - 08/27/15 10:35 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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I think the vietnam war was more sinister because we were killing them because we wanted to give them "democratic freedom" where as in iraq we just want oil.
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dionysiandame
Mischievous Maenad


Registered: 08/27/13
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Re: Old-school military veterans in comparison to modern vets [Re: shLong]
#22150858 - 08/27/15 10:40 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
shLong said: I feel really shifty about how things went down for the men of your generation, ZIG.
Drafted in to Nam like that and then coming home to ridicule. 
Most of the best managers I've ever had were older vets. One, in particular, served in Vietnam. I had no idea until he told me one afternoon. It wasn't something he normally shared but we had an excellent rapport.
I think former military personnel make some of the best managers. They understand priorities, are willing to take risks, etc. My former manager gave me an obscene amount of autonomy to get things done. I think he appreciated that I didn't need hand-holding and would become annoyed by the baby-food approach insisted upon by corporate service. He didn't care about corporate politics; he wanted shit done quickly and well. He didn't mince words and didn't fuck around. A lot of people didn't like him, but I adored him. I was sad when he retired and all of us were relegated back to the common corporate cronies with no clue but tons of hot air.
I feel a sadness that he faced a war time situation personally but I can't help but think it helped shape him into who he was while we worked together.
Fuck.
Now I'm having feels.
-------------------- He (Dionysos) keeps me with all of his other pretty things for I am just another pretty thing in a long list of acquisitions. Yes! And their brains are releasing adrenaline, dopamine, even dimethyltryptamine from the pineal gland! This has serious educational value! Thanatophobia and this N.D.E. is giving us euphoric altered awareness! Don't you see, Princess? We were all born to die! – Finn the Human Pay me what you owe me. Don't act like you forgot. BBHMM.
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shLong



Registered: 03/04/10
Posts: 25,330
Loc: 'sconsin
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Re: Old-school military veterans in comparison to modern vets [Re: dionysiandame]
#22150872 - 08/27/15 10:44 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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One of my 6th grade teachers was really nice but quite a bit 'out there'...
A few years later, speaking to friend's mom (who happened to know dude from outside of school) I learned he was in Nam and actually had several confirmed kills or whatever.
Not sure if that's what made him odd, but I couldn't imagine walking around day-to-day with that always in the back of my mind.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Old-school military veterans in comparison to modern vets [Re: ShiVersblood] 1
#22150879 - 08/27/15 10:45 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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We do not need their oil, we haven't gotten their oil and putting them back on line for producing oil is harmful to our oil industry. Do you have any fucking clue about anything?
Do you know what the North Vietnamese did to the South Vietnames after we ran away because of liberal hippie faggots insistence that we capitulate? Our vets, who had no say in making policy were treated a lot better the South Vietnamese. You want to see what difference it makes? Look at a satellite photo of North and South Korea.
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