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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: What Do You Think Happens When We Die? [Re: KauaiOrca]
#22177531 - 09/02/15 10:00 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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As to your music example, classical music experts claimed to be able to tell a real Stradivarius violin from a modern replica. Can you guess the results?
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KauaiOrca
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OrgoneConclusion said:
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It is absolutely ludicrous to claim some kind of superior understanding of the NDE, lucid dreaming or Out of Body states if you haven't had one
Many OBErs claim to be able to actually travel and bring back real information. That is testable - and the tests always fail.
Alien abductees make all sorts of claims - and when tested in a sleep facility, are clearly shown to have never left their beds even while telling of physical abduction.
People fabricate, lie, exaggerate, filter and enhance their stories for a myriad of reasons. Sifting through such tales looking for truth does not get a researcher very far.
My take on it is that the OBE is a dimensional shift. This incessant need to "verify" it by gathering observation while in OBE here in waking reality world is missing the point. Maybe that's just not what the OBE is all about? Perhaps there are real boundaries that exist between OBE consciousness and waking consciousness for reasons of keeping some kind of integrity between various dimensions. I don't really see the point at all of using an OBE to explore waking reality when we are far more suited to do that ... awake.
The more important questions are WHY do these endlessly complex, incredibly organized and crystal clear astral realms exist at all? How is the brain able to "manufacture" these with infinite complexity and WHY? World that we can't even fathom or imagine are there ready to explore. They can't possibly be memories if they don't exist? The more important knowledge that is gathered that is often life changing is the interactions in the non ordinary realms.
Hey, if you want to spend your time trying to figure out if the astral body is actually sneaking around in waking reality, then go for it. It doesn't change the fact that a very amazing process is taking place with infinite potential and complexity.
And, once again, science has absolutely no explanation at all why the brain would organize these incredibly rich NDE's with life reviews, visits to cosmic libraries, interactions with deities, etc. Why bother if the person was simply dying? Of what benefit is that? Why would the brain even care? Where does the information for these infinitely varied astral realms come from when a person that has no fantasy or knowledge of them just slips into it?
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: What Do You Think Happens When We Die? [Re: KauaiOrca]
#22177568 - 09/02/15 10:16 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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And, once again, science has absolutely no explanation at all why the brain would organize these incredibly rich NDE's with life reviews, visits to cosmic libraries, interactions with deities, etc. Why bother if the person was simply dying? Of what benefit is that? Why would the brain even care? Where does the information for these infinitely varied astral realms come from when a person that has no fantasy or knowledge of them just slips into it?
This sounds suspiciously like the Argument from Ignorance. Science has no explanation therefore Mysticism.
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KauaiOrca
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OrgoneConclusion said:
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And, once again, science has absolutely no explanation at all why the brain would organize these incredibly rich NDE's with life reviews, visits to cosmic libraries, interactions with deities, etc. Why bother if the person was simply dying? Of what benefit is that? Why would the brain even care? Where does the information for these infinitely varied astral realms come from when a person that has no fantasy or knowledge of them just slips into it?
This sounds suspiciously like the Argument from Ignorance. Science has no explanation therefore Mysticism. 
What is the science explanation for a 4 year old that can play a musical instrument as if he's been learning for 20 years? Or the child that can recall memories from a past life that have tested out to be true many, many times?
Again, you completely ignore the question of why and how the brain manufactures infinitely complex worlds for us to visit in the NDE. This is an obvious problem with the science explanation. How does the brain create all this and why?
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: What Do You Think Happens When We Die? [Re: KauaiOrca]
#22177630 - 09/02/15 10:38 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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How does the brain create all this and why?
Because magic! 
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KauaiOrca
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OrgoneConclusion said:
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How does the brain create all this and why?
Because magic! 

In other words, you ain't got jack. LOL. Face it, bud, there's a lot of holes in your belief system. Personally, I think there's a middle ground. A lot of bizarre interaction with memory and a bleeding of dimensional traversing. Both are compatible with current scientific theory. The virtuosos of the OBE and lucid dreaming states have pretty much said the same thing.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: What Do You Think Happens When We Die? [Re: KauaiOrca]
#22177691 - 09/02/15 10:57 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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In other words, you ain't got jack.
It is actually OK to say "I don't know". BTW, ignorance is not a belief system while making stuff up is.

However, I look forward to your published paper detailing the correct mechanism.
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KauaiOrca
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OrgoneConclusion said:
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In other words, you ain't got jack.
It is actually OK to say "I don't know". BTW, ignorance is not a belief system while making stuff up is.

However, I look forward to your published paper detailing the correct mechanism. 
There we have it. You don't know. And because you don't know you project that others that study the topic much more seriously that you do don't know. Ok, got it. Pretty clear now.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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liquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
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Re: What Do You Think Happens When We Die? [Re: KauaiOrca]
#22177840 - 09/02/15 11:38 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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KauaiOrca said: There we have it. You don't know. And because you don't know you project that others that study the topic much more seriously that you do don't know. Ok, got it. Pretty clear now.
Why u so funny Orco!
-------------------- As far as I assume to know...
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Cognitive_Shift
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Re: What Do You Think Happens When We Die? [Re: KauaiOrca]
#22180775 - 09/02/15 10:02 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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I'd rather understand the limits of human knowledge and admit I don't know then delusionally think something true without there being any empirical evidence to prove the case with factual certainty.
PS: Someone admitting they don't know isn't evidence lending your ideas validity. It just means he's mature enough to admit he doesn't know. BTW it's impossible to have empirical evidence of experience after death unless you're dead, something which is impossible to do while you're still alive. So theoretically the only possible answer is unknown. No matter how many eastern philosophies you try to explain none of those people were dead when they wrote them so therefore they don't know.
-------------------- L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
Edited by Cognitive_Shift (09/02/15 10:09 PM)
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Lucent
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You wake up and your dream fades and your new life begins.
Might even happen every night...
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Kush_Zombie
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Re: What Do You Think Happens When We Die? [Re: Lucent]
#22181499 - 09/03/15 01:15 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Lucent said: You wake up and your dream fades and your new life begins.
Might even happen every night...
I wonder if there might be a pause between that time. A time (49 days?) where you remember all of your lives and maybe choose your next life
-------------------- How to get started in bulk: Presto 23-Quart Pressure Cooker BOD's Simple as FUCK Still Air Box PastyWhyte's Easy Agar Tek Munchauzen's Cultivation Video Series How EvilMushroom666 Prepares His Grains (I use jars with Synthetic Filter Discs) What is G2G? (Grain-to-Grain) Damion5050's Coir Tek (I use 5.5 - 6 quarts of water instead of 4. Also ignore step 13 and ignore the monotub completely. The only purpose of this tek is to show you how to make a simple substrate. I also add gypsum to it but not necessary) Spitball's Monotub Tek (A liner isn't necessary but is useful) Use 6500k lights throughout the whole process. When you wake up, turn the light on. When you go to sleep turn the light off. It's as simple as that.
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KauaiOrca
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Cognitive_Shift said: I'd rather understand the limits of human knowledge and admit I don't know then delusionally think something true without there being any empirical evidence to prove the case with factual certainty.
PS: Someone admitting they don't know isn't evidence lending your ideas validity. It just means he's mature enough to admit he doesn't know. BTW it's impossible to have empirical evidence of experience after death unless you're dead, something which is impossible to do while you're still alive. So theoretically the only possible answer is unknown. No matter how many eastern philosophies you try to explain none of those people were dead when they wrote them so therefore they don't know.
One man's limits is another man's springboard. At one point man concluded it's not possible to understand the laws of nature because we are not Gods ... then ... we are not capable of understanding the laws of physics ... then we are not capable of understanding the true nature of consciousness and life and death. My point has been and continues to be that just as there are Geniuses that TRULY UNDERSTAND the physics behind the most complex theories that exist, there are Geniuses when it comes to controlling their consciousness as it applies to the multi dimensional access humans have but are largely unaware of. My point is that THEY are a better source of knowledge/opinion (on the after death experience) than a scientist in a lab with a sophisticated brain scan machine that has virtually no experience at all with conscious exploration of dream, OBE and astral states.
Try to imagine what they learn after spending thousands and thousands of hours consciously exploring the multi dimensional states of awareness. Shaman have said from different cultures that it is possible to see the human spirit leave the body at death and in out of body states but the ability to see this, just as the ability to dream consciously and control the OBE experience are difficult to develop and as such, not easy at all for a scientist to test, let alone even understand.
Our Western world has placed a heavy taboo on the exploration of consciousness. Other cultures didn't and some actively studied it ... for centuries ... and captured that knowledge and passed it on from generation generation and that knowledge grew. Our Western habit of calling ALL non science based cultures superstitious and ignorant is a mistake. Some are and some aren't. The Tibetan monasteries were not reproducing superstition and were, in fact, intent on obliterating it. The consciousness shifting abilities that their masters acquired is well beyond anything our scientific community is capable of understanding at this point.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: What Do You Think Happens When We Die? [Re: KauaiOrca]
#22182246 - 09/03/15 09:44 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Our Western world has placed a heavy taboo on the exploration of consciousness.
Evidence - or just another in a long line of baseless assertions?
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KauaiOrca
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OrgoneConclusion said:
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Our Western world has placed a heavy taboo on the exploration of consciousness.
Evidence - or just another in a long line of baseless assertions?
Research on hallucinogenics was, for the most part, completely outlawed for the last 40 years. Some small addiction based projects and easing anxiety about death studies have come out over last 5 years, but that's about it.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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OrgoneConclusion
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Registered: 04/01/07
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Re: What Do You Think Happens When We Die? [Re: KauaiOrca]
#22182297 - 09/03/15 09:58 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Consciousness is ONLY about hallucinogens? That is pretty darned narrow and, of course, not what you wrote initially. This constant shifting tactic you employ is highly disingenuous.
Let's pretend that that was what you actually meant when you specifically said it was taboo in the Western world. This means you could show many papers written in the last 40 years on hallucinogens and consciousness in the East. Please link some mainstream ones.
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KauaiOrca
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OrgoneConclusion said: Consciousness is ONLY about hallucinogens? That is pretty darned narrow and, of course, not what you wrote initially. This constant shifting tactic you employ is highly disingenuous.
Let's pretend that that was what you actually meant when you specifically said it was taboo in the Western world. This means you could show many papers written in the last 40 years on hallucinogens and consciousness in the East. Please link some mainstream ones.
You asked for evidence and I gave you one piece of it and then you attack it. Your bias is always front and center. Hallucinogens are a very easy and accessible way to research consciousness.
Given that Qi Gong is a major component of Chinese medicine, there are an endless number of studies on it readily available. Google "chinese consciousness studies of qi gong" and you'll get more than you can possibly get to.
Energy healing, the human electro magnetic field, chakras, etc. are taken much more seriously in Eastern Medicine. Ayurvedic medicine as well.
Once again, you seem somewhat uninformed on a topic that is well documented.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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KauaiOrca
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OrgoneConclusion said: Consciousness is ONLY about hallucinogens?
If you're truly interested in the topic, which I kinda doubt you are, a good person to look into is Stephen Laberge who ran the Stanford University sleep research lab for a number of years. He pioneered ways to communicate with people that were asleep in lucid dream states by asking questions and monitoring brain waves and eye movements. Pretty interesting stuff. I read a lot of his stuff years ago and it was pretty rigorous research. He had people that developed their lucid dreaming ability to the point that they could meet up in lucid dreaming dreamscapes and participate together in those places and he could prove they were dreaming and the time they hooked up. It was fascinating and suggested that there does exist a "place" where these dream/astral realms exist. Now, whether our minds are just connecting ala Jung's collective unconscious or there's really a "there" there he couldn't answer. But he did prove that two dreamers in two locales could connect in a dream space in real time and explore together and when debriefed after coming out of REM state, would describe a nearly identical dream sequence.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
Edited by KauaiOrca (09/03/15 11:01 AM)
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Memories



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Re: What Do You Think Happens When We Die? [Re: KauaiOrca]
#22185366 - 09/03/15 09:40 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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KauaiOrca said: You asked for evidence and I gave you one piece of it and then you attack it. Your bias is always front and center. Hallucinogens are a very easy and accessible way to research consciousness.
Given that Qi Gong is a major component of Chinese medicine, there are an endless number of studies on it readily available. Google "chinese consciousness studies of qi gong" and you'll get more than you can possibly get to.
Energy healing, the human electro magnetic field, chakras, etc. are taken much more seriously in Eastern Medicine. Ayurvedic medicine as well.
Once again, you seem somewhat uninformed on a topic that is well documented.
There are many quack concepts in Eastern medicine because this very broad category tends to ignore the scientific method and shy away from any sort of legitimate peer review.
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KauaiOrca
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Re: What Do You Think Happens When We Die? [Re: Memories]
#22185535 - 09/03/15 09:58 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Memories said:
There are many quack concepts in Eastern medicine because this very broad category tends to ignore the scientific method and shy away from any sort of legitimate peer review.
Qi Gong has been practiced in China for thousands of years. There are many scientific studies on it. It is a one of the primary therapies in Eastern medicine. Hundreds of millions of Chinese have been treated with it.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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