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qman
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
qman said: GDP per capita needs to grow because we have low growth and too much debt, why is that so difficult to understand
GDP per capita IS GROWING. At a rate of close to 2% per capita per year. See the graph above.
I should have said grow "more".
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Jill Stein - Green Party [Re: qman] 1
#23549958 - 08/17/16 01:21 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
qman said: GDP per capita needs to grow because we have low growth and too much debt, why is that so difficult to understand
GDP per capita IS GROWING. At a rate of close to 2% per capita per year. See the graph above.
I should have said grow "more".
Ok, let's talk about that. If GDP per capita stayed the same, then everyone's lifestyle should stay about the same. But GDP per capita is going up nearly 2% per person per year, so if workers were paid fairly (which we know they're not), then people's lifestyles should be getting better by roughly 2% each year.
The problem is the 2% extra productivity we're seeing each year is all going to the 1%. We need to figure out how to get it back into the hands of the people that actually earned it.
Taxing the rich more is one way to restore middle class wealth. Middle class America could then pay less for health insurance, public college, and other such things and would be a lot better off.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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The Ecstatic
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Exactly, and wages are just one side of things.
If we implemented single payer, restored public tuition, invested in public transportation, a lot of the expenses that our middle class deals with (that other first world nations' counterparts need not) would be greatly reduced.
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hostileuniverse
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The Ecstatic
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I'm willing to bet if Romney were the GOP nominee, both third parties would be doing better across the board.
Potential Stein (and Johnson) people are too afraid to dump Hillary because they hate Trump.
Even more Johnson people clinging to Trump because they hate Hillary.
Two party system
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hostileuniverse
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At least with two party system we are not ruled by a minority, the court system does plenty of that 
That aside, I'd love to see neither Hilary or Trump get the needed electoral votes to win, power to the people!
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The Ecstatic
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Quote:
hostileuniverse said: At least with two party system we are not ruled by a minority, the court system does plenty of that 
That aside, I'd love to see neither Hilary or Trump get the needed electoral votes to win, power to the people!
"At least were not ruled by a minority."
"Id love to see the two most popular candidates lose, to then be ruled by a minority."
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Enlil
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Your premise is that a President "rules." I challenge the accuracy of that premise.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Jill Stein - Green Party [Re: Enlil] 1
#23559850 - 08/20/16 12:33 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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I dont believe that for a second, just pointing out the inconsistency of his statement.
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Enlil
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I don't think he was necessarily talking about the president when he mentioned being ruled by the minority. He was very likely talking about Congress. His statement about both presidential candidates wouldn't be inconsistent with that since presidents don't rule.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Jill Stein - Green Party [Re: Enlil] 1
#23559899 - 08/20/16 12:50 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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I dont see how he could be talking about congress in a response to my post about 3rd party presidential candidates. But ok.
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Enlil
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Your post did end with the phrase, stated in isolation, "two party system". I interpreted his post to be first responding to that by pointing out one positive aspect of the two party system, with the second part of his post being about your actual post concerning presidential elections. He did, after all, begin the second sentence with "that aside,"
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hostileuniverse
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
hostileuniverse said: At least with two party system we are not ruled by a minority, the court system does plenty of that 
That aside, I'd love to see neither Hilary or Trump get the needed electoral votes to win, power to the people!
"At least were not ruled by a minority."
"Id love to see the two most popular candidates lose, to then be ruled by a minority."
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said: I dont believe that for a second, just pointing out the inconsistency of his statement.
Quote:
The Ecstatic said: I dont see how he could be talking about congress in a response to my post about 3rd party presidential candidates. But ok.
Yeah, most of my points go WAY the fuck over your head, sorry, sometimes i forget who I'm talking to
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Crumist
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Quote:
hostileuniverse said: http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/291759-poll-jill-stein-tied-with-harambe-trailing-deez-nutz-in-texas
She's geting the word out, I think she's got a good shot
Tied with harambe, that's actually pretty impressive. I bet Nader is eating his heart out. But the real question is how the heck is dez nuts in the lead? That video seems ancient.
And honestly, all she needs to aim for us hitting those .5%, 1%, 3% thresholds that will help out future Greens. If the two big parties keep putting out crap candidates we may see one of the thirds get some people in power. They claim to be for boring electoral reform that will chip our current duopoly
She seems a bit of a quack to me though, and she almost makes Clinton seem charismatic imo.
-------------------- 'I am all for resources being allocated to the widowed single mother of 3, lost husband over seas fighting for our country. I am for vets getting mental health access and resources following war. I am not for free money cause a woman can't close her legs or some chump with low testosterone no going to work cause "i'm sad."' -finalexplosion Nice knowin ya'll! https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23904704/vc/1#23904704
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The Ecstatic
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Quote:
hostileuniverse said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
hostileuniverse said: At least with two party system we are not ruled by a minority, the court system does plenty of that 
That aside, I'd love to see neither Hilary or Trump get the needed electoral votes to win, power to the people!
"At least were not ruled by a minority."
"Id love to see the two most popular candidates lose, to then be ruled by a minority."
...
Quote:
The Ecstatic said: I dont believe that for a second, just pointing out the inconsistency of his statement.
Quote:
The Ecstatic said: I dont see how he could be talking about congress in a response to my post about 3rd party presidential candidates. But ok.
Yeah, most of my points go WAY the fuck over your head, sorry, sometimes i forget who I'm talking to

Youre so full of shit
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ballsalsa
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Re: Jill Stein - Green Party [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#23567964 - 08/23/16 01:04 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Glad to see everything has been running smoothly in my absence around here. The two party system is a scam, and indeed, to some extent, all parties are a scam in that they attempt to recruit as many members as possible and thereby decrease the chances of being able to pursue the best interests of their constituents. The fewer parties there are, the more this problem is exacerbated. Don't take my word for it, just ask some of the Great and Powerful Founding Fathers:
John Adams said: "There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties, each arranged under its leader, and concerting measures in opposition to each other. This, in my humble apprehension, is to be dreaded as the greatest political evil under our Constitution." https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/John_Adams
And then there's George Washington:
"17 All obstructions to the execution of the Laws, all combinations and associations, under whatever plausible character, with the real design to direct, control, counteract, or awe the regular deliberation and action of the constituted authorities, are destructive of this fundamental principle, and of fatal tendency. They serve to organize faction, to give it an artificial and extraordinary force; to put, in the place of the delegated will of the nation, the will of a party, often a small but artful and enterprising minority of the community; and, according to the alternate triumphs of different parties, to make the public administration the mirror of the ill-concerted and incongruous projects of faction, rather than the organ of consistent and wholesome plans digested by common counsels, and modified by mutual interests.
18 However combinations or associations of the above description may now and then answer popular ends, they are likely, in the course of time and things, to become potent engines, by which cunning, ambitious, and unprincipled men will be enabled to subvert the power of the people, and to usurp for themselves the reins of government; destroying afterwards the very engines, which have lifted them to unjust dominion...
20 I have already intimated to you the danger of parties in the state, with particular reference to the founding of them on geographical discriminations. Let me now take a more comprehensive view, and warn you in the most solemn manner against the baneful effects of the spirit of party, generally.
21 This spirit, unfortunately, is inseparable from our nature, having its root in the strongest passions of the human mind. It exists under different shapes in all governments, more or less stifled, controlled, or repressed; but, in those of the popular form, it is seen in its greatest rankness, and is truly their worst enemy.
22 The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge, natural to party dissension, which in different ages and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism. But this leads at length to a more formal and permanent despotism. The disorders and miseries, which result, gradually incline the minds of men to seek security and repose in the absolute power of an individual; and sooner or later the chief of some prevailing faction, more able or more fortunate than his competitors, turns this disposition to the purposes of his own elevation, on the ruins of Public Liberty.
23 Without looking forward to an extremity of this kind, (which nevertheless ought not to be entirely out of sight,) the common and continual mischiefs of the spirit of party are sufficient to make it the interest and duty of a wise people to discourage and restrain it.
24 It serves always to distract the Public Councils, and enfeeble the Public Administration. It agitates the Community with ill-founded jealousies and false alarms; kindles the animosity of one part against another, foments occasionally riot and insurrection. It opens the door to foreign influence and corruption, which find a facilitated access to the government itself through the channels of party passions. Thus the policy and the will of one country are subjected to the policy and will of another.
25 There is an opinion, that parties in free countries are useful checks upon the administration of the Government, and serve to keep alive the spirit of Liberty. This within certain limits is probably true; and in Governments of a Monarchical cast, Patriotism may look with indulgence, if not with favor, upon the spirit of party. But in those of the popular character, in Governments purely elective, it is a spirit not to be encouraged. From their natural tendency, it is certain there will always be enough of that spirit for every salutary purpose. And, there being constant danger of excess, the effort ought to be, by force of public opinion, to mitigate and assuage it. A fire not to be quenched, it demands a uniform vigilance to prevent its bursting into a flame, lest, instead of warming, it should consume." https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Washington%27s_Farewell_Address#22
Washington's premise is supported by western history even as far back as the Battle of Marathon. Without delving too deeply into the story, it goes something like this: Persians were pissed at Athenians for supporting ethnic greek rebels within Persian territory. they sailed to greece and parked their boats in a spot that would draw the athenian army out away from the city. When the athenians got there, the persians got back on their boats and sailed for the undefended city. the athenians had to run like hell for a bunch of miles to get back to the city before the boats could get there. Now here is the important part: The Persian plan hinged on the undefended city gates being opened by partisans within the city who had been promised rulership over athens once the fighting was over. So there you have it, political parties have been undermining democracy from the very beginning. back to the Founders
Thomas Jefferson: "My opinion was never worthy enough of notice to merit citing; but since you ask it I will tell it you. I am not a Federalist, because I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent. If I could not go to heaven but with a party, I would not go there at all. Therefore I protest to you I am not of the party of federalists. But I am much farther from that of the Antifederalists." http://www.let.rug.nl/usa/presidents/thomas-jefferson/letters-of-thomas-jefferson/jefl75.php
"I deplore with you the putrid state into which our newspapers have passed, and the malignity, the vulgarity, & mendacious spirit of those who write for them: and I inclose you a recent sample, the production of a New-England judge, as a proof of the abyss of degradation into which we are fallen. these ordures are rapidly depraving the public taste, and lessening it’s relish for sound food. as vehicles of information, and a curb on our functionaries they have rendered themselves useless by forfieting all title to belief. that this has in a great degree been produced by the violence and malignity of party spirit I agree with you..." http://founders.archives.gov/documents/Jefferson/03-07-02-0052
Hamilton: "And a further reason for caution, in this respect, might be drawn from the reflection that we are not always sure that those who advocate the truth are influenced by purer principles than their antagonists. Ambition, avarice, personal animosity, party opposition, and many other motives not more laudable than these, are apt to operate as well upon those who support as those who oppose the right side of a question. Were there not even these inducements to moderation, nothing could be more ill-judged than that intolerant spirit which has, at all times, characterized political parties. For in politics, as in religion, it is equally absurd to aim at making proselytes by fire and sword. Heresies in either can rarely be cured by persecution.
And yet, however just these sentiments will be allowed to be, we have already sufficient indications that it will happen in this as in all former cases of great national discussion. A torrent of angry and malignant passions will be let loose. To judge from the conduct of the opposite parties, we shall be led to conclude that they will mutually hope to evince the justness of their opinions, and to increase the number of their converts by the loudness of their declamations and the bitterness of their invectives. An enlightened zeal for the energy and efficiency of government will be stigmatized as the offspring of a temper fond of despotic power and hostile to the principles of liberty. An over-scrupulous jealousy of danger to the rights of the people, which is more commonly the fault of the head than of the heart, will be represented as mere pretense and artifice, the stale bait for popularity at the expense of the public good. It will be forgotten, on the one hand, that jealousy is the usual concomitant of love, and that the noble enthusiasm of liberty is apt to be infected with a spirit of narrow and illiberal distrust. On the other hand, it will be equally forgotten that the vigor of government is essential to the security of liberty; that, in the contemplation of a sound and well-informed judgment, their interest can never be separated; and that a dangerous ambition more often lurks behind the specious mask of zeal for the rights of the people than under the forbidden appearance of zeal for the firmness and efficiency of government. History will teach us that the former has been found a much more certain road to the introduction of despotism than the latter, and that of those men who have overturned the liberties of republics, the greatest number have begun their career by paying an obsequious court to the people; commencing demagogues, and ending tyrants." http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/fed01.asp
Madison: "AMONG the numerous advantages promised by a wellconstructed Union, none deserves to be more accurately developed than its tendency to break and control the violence of faction. The friend of popular governments never finds himself so much alarmed for their character and fate, as when he contemplates their propensity to this dangerous vice. He will not fail, therefore, to set a due value on any plan which, without violating the principles to which he is attached, provides a proper cure for it. The instability, injustice, and confusion introduced into the public councils, have, in truth, been the mortal diseases under which popular governments have everywhere perished; as they continue to be the favorite and fruitful topics from which the adversaries to liberty derive their most specious declamations. The valuable improvements made by the American constitutions on the popular models, both ancient and modern, cannot certainly be too much admired; but it would be an unwarrantable partiality, to contend that they have as effectually obviated the danger on this side, as was wished and expected. Complaints are everywhere heard from our most considerate and virtuous citizens, equally the friends of public and private faith, and of public and personal liberty, that our governments are too unstable, that the public good is disregarded in the conflicts of rival parties, and that measures are too often decided, not according to the rules of justice and the rights of the minor party, but by the superior force of an interested and overbearing majority. However anxiously we may wish that these complaints had no foundation, the evidence, of known facts will not permit us to deny that they are in some degree true...No man is allowed to be a judge in his own cause, because his interest would certainly bias his judgment, and, not improbably, corrupt his integrity. With equal, nay with greater reason, a body of men are unfit to be both judges and parties at the same time; yet what are many of the most important acts of legislation, but so many judicial determinations, not indeed concerning the rights of single persons, but concerning the rights of large bodies of citizens? And what are the different classes of legislators but advocates and parties to the causes which they determine? Is a law proposed concerning private debts? It is a question to which the creditors are parties on one side and the debtors on the other. Justice ought to hold the balance between them. Yet the parties are, and must be, themselves the judges; and the most numerous party, or, in other words, the most powerful faction must be expected to prevail. " http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/fed10.asp
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Jill Stein - Green Party [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#23568034 - 08/23/16 02:14 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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I haven't watched this yet (it's an hour), but apparently CNN did a town hall with Jill Stein and her running mate.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/11
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They kicked the shit out of the lib town hall IMO
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Jill Stein - Green Party [Re: Connoisseur]
#23568394 - 08/23/16 08:14 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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you mean the corporate neocon town hall where they constantly interrupted and cut off the only liberal?
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Connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/11
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I thought stein and baraka gave better answers than johnson and weld
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