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Thanatos10
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Trouble with Nihilism
#22131669 - 08/23/15 04:25 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Simply put, reading about nihilism has made me suicidal. Life seems to have no point or purpose for me anymore and I have no desire to do or aspire towards anything. Sleep is my only respite but I don't want to live that way anymore, I don't want to wake up each day dreading life.
Maybe I don't understand it, maybe it is as bad as it seems, but I need help.
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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zZZz
jesus


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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10]
#22131754 - 08/23/15 04:42 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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That's just what nihilism is, it is intended to make u feel that way.
I had a loved one who got really into that shit, except he never had the privalge to make one of these threads, he had already suffered from depression, but nihilism took him to the edge and he committed suicide about 4 years ago.. it broke my heart..
Keep striving, man. Life does have a purpose, sometimes just being alive for ur loved ones is ur purpose.
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DividedQuantum
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10]
#22131773 - 08/23/15 04:48 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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"The dead know only one thing: it is better to be alive." --Pvt. Joker
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Kuhl
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Time waits for No One Hours are like diamonds, don't let them waste -The Rolling Stones
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Thanatos10
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Kuhl]
#22131998 - 08/23/15 05:30 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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It doesn't help that I'm also struggling with depression.
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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Kurt
Thinker, blinker, writer, typer.

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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Kuhl]
#22132019 - 08/23/15 05:35 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Maybe nihilism could be "what" we grapple with, but practically speaking many people will argue it's not any thesis or "thing". Philosophically speaking many references to nihilism are oblique; or in coherence are the equivelent of walking off a cliff. Not that this should be comforting, but clearly people will be saying how it is self a full filling.
Heidegger wrote (clearly in a manner of speaking) "the nothing nothings". But what did he mean? Well he was arguing for the relavence of metaphysics to a modern world. Nietzsche is somewhere between being outgoingly cheery and a loose cannon, and is usually misreferenced.
I think context may be key. Who do you take to be nihilist writers, that you are reading. I recall the term has its main origin, as something "claimed" by Russian anarchists in the 19th century.
Hope things look up.
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DividedQuantum
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10]
#22132044 - 08/23/15 05:40 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Thanatos10 said: It doesn't help that I'm also struggling with depression.
It all depends on what you want. I assume there are loved ones in your life who would be permanently devastated should anything catastrophic happen to you. Go talk to somebody, a depression counselor, a psychiatrist, other people suffering from depression -- maybe all of the above. If you want to live to fight another day, you know what you have to do.
Best of good luck.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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geffer
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Kuhl] 1
#22132098 - 08/23/15 05:49 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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I've also been depressed since my early teens when I really started thinking about life more but that's no reason to die. Since life is pointless, to kill yourself over something pointless is even more pointless. You don't need a purpose to continue living, all you need is to find things you've enjoyed doing your whole life and continue doing them while finding new activities you enjoy. Realistically, no one is going to create a meaningful impact on larger things in life like the environment or the well being of the billions of other people, but you can at least make the best of the situations you were born in to improve as an individual and create a better life for yourself, your family, and your friends.
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Kurt
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: geffer]
#22132168 - 08/23/15 06:04 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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That's pretty well said. I should have clarified that in what I was getting at, nihilism can be an intellectual position that is getting over-emphasized. That something doesn't make intellectual sense can maybe seem like the eclipse of a pinpoint focus, in view of life.
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Tropism
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: geffer]
#22132435 - 08/23/15 07:03 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Think that's pretty spot on, Geffer. Regarding impact though what is meaningful or not is subject to change from person to person, for instance if we're considering human related impact even or the impact you could have for all the other species on this planet trapped with us. If one decides to put their value of meaning into compassion care for animals there is plenty of purpose to find, for example.
What interests me more though is how clear it is our values are subjective, and clearly can be changed with conscious will. We have to make our purpose, I'm not convinced we simply find it. It is terrifying to realize we are the one's holding the reigns but imo Nihilism and that fear go hand in hand.
Thanatos: I recommend a healthy dose of existentialism to balance it all out in the mix, if that doesn't make sense do some reading on it along side of your current readings. Kurt already mentioned Heidegger, if you haven't brushed up on that give it a shot. Also I <3 Huckabees is a cute little film that might jog the gears with material very blatantly about this topic, a one character is in the exact position you are in.
Hang in there it will come around if you keep striving. Meaninglessness is a freedom imo, we aren't someone elses character we are our own and life is the challenge to tell the story we want. It's hard and scary if you ask me, but if you give a shit and try you find a lot to be valued and enjoyed. It's all in the moments, and while the fleeting nature of life is anxiety inducing without it the whole thing would be dull. If this is our one shot, don't waste it. Get as much fun as you can, actually enjoy this crazy ride, and you will have given the biggest middle-finger to the universe. Who basically set you up to die.
IT WAS A SET UP, BOYS!
Edited by Tropism (08/23/15 07:07 PM)
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Thanatos10
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Tropism]
#22133072 - 08/23/15 10:04 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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I just can't shake this nagging feeling inside that nothing matters and it's all pointless. I feel a cold sensation in my heart and yet my body feels pretty good. I'm not sure what to make of all this.
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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circastes
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10] 1
#22133973 - 08/24/15 05:23 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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"The universe is a puzzle, life is a problem to be solved, it's a conundrum, it's not what it appears to be. There are doors, there are locks and keys, there are levels, and if you get it right, somehow it will give way to something extremely unexpected."
We don't know what kind of circumstance we are caught in. Nihilism is just an attitude towards this unknown circumstance that doesn't use much of your IQ to happen upon.
Depression seems to be the ONLY evidence for nihilistic propositions. Depression is a horrific state of mind and the world is co-created by your state of mind, state of being. So you are pretty much in a pointless universe when depressed, as far as you can know. And you can't know anything else until you're healthy again.
A healthy brain doesn't assume, doesn't believe, it doesn't have to do these things, they are unnecessary, the world that the state of mind of healthiness and happiness generates is perfectly acceptable.
-------------------- My solitude... My shield... My armour... TESTED WITH FULL FORCE
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quinn
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: circastes] 2
#22134669 - 08/24/15 09:32 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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to anyone struggling with nihilism i say as follows:
get a haircut! 
no im being deadly serious. get a weird cool one. maybe dyed or braided or both?..
if you really dont believe in anything this will have no effect on your life. you will feel nothing from this arbitrary change to some superficial aspect of your reality... right?
and if you dont feel anything due to your nihilistic paradigm, i urge you to do some more stuff. buy some interesting clothes, post a video on youtube, join a society for medieval reenactments...
i mean if you really dont believe anything you should be impervious to anything right? you should be free to traverse the limits of experience and expression without vulnerability hesitation or emotion.
so do it. prove to yourself you are actually a nihilist in the truest sense and not just some mopy pretender who has adopted nihilism as a convenient shield to avoid any kind of change to old tired behaviour patterns and ideas of self. i will take my hat off to ya.
and hey if you're not a nihilist after all or things do seem to have meaning even if you dont really know why.. well come join the rest of us
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circastes
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: quinn]
#22134933 - 08/24/15 10:41 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Nice one!
-------------------- My solitude... My shield... My armour... TESTED WITH FULL FORCE
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Thanatos10
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: circastes]
#22136621 - 08/24/15 05:34 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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I just can't shake this nagging feeling in my head that tells me it's all pointless. No matter what I do to distract myself.
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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zZZz
jesus


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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10]
#22136635 - 08/24/15 05:38 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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how can it be pointless?
look at all these points
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and that's just the beginning
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Thanatos10
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: zZZz]
#22136879 - 08/24/15 06:31 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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I'm serious. It's like defeat before the beginning. Everything I try to do just gets shot down instantly.
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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zZZz
jesus


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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10]
#22137065 - 08/24/15 07:11 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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sounds like depression, man..
is their anything currently bothering u?..
problems at home, work?...
i'm all ears
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Rahz
Alive Again



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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10]
#22137067 - 08/24/15 07:11 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Thanatos10 said: I'm serious. It's like defeat before the beginning. Everything I try to do just gets shot down instantly.
You just need to change the context of your viewpoint. Nihilism is IMO an honest world view. Being okay with such a proposition requires only that you give up your unreasonable expectations.
A main pointer would be that you shouldn't take your thoughts too seriously during this time, whether it's suicidal or manifests in an outward way, blaming some aspect of life or humanity for this apparent void of meaning and worth. In these regards, "don't trust yourself". Be a student of yourself. Watch how manipulative your brain is with the thoughts and emotions. You have to find the line between fixating on your condition and being cold hearted. If you can maintain that center line you will discover compassion. Perhaps not as vibrant a feeling as the ones conjured by illusion, but at least real and can lead to real experiences that are worthwhile.
You have an eternity to be dead. While you're alive be curious and learn... not like you have anything better to do right? Plenty of worse things to do.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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sudly
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10] 1
#22137185 - 08/24/15 07:36 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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"The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference."
That's as much meaning as I need.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Thanatos10
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Rahz]
#22137356 - 08/24/15 08:07 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said:
Quote:
Thanatos10 said: I'm serious. It's like defeat before the beginning. Everything I try to do just gets shot down instantly.
You just need to change the context of your viewpoint. Nihilism is IMO an honest world view. Being okay with such a proposition requires only that you give up your unreasonable expectations.
A main pointer would be that you shouldn't take your thoughts too seriously during this time, whether it's suicidal or manifests in an outward way, blaming some aspect of life or humanity for this apparent void of meaning and worth. In these regards, "don't trust yourself". Be a student of yourself. Watch how manipulative your brain is with the thoughts and emotions. You have to find the line between fixating on your condition and being cold hearted. If you can maintain that center line you will discover compassion. Perhaps not as vibrant a feeling as the ones conjured by illusion, but at least real and can lead to real experiences that are worthwhile.
You have an eternity to be dead. While you're alive be curious and learn... not like you have anything better to do right? Plenty of worse things to do.
I don't understand, what do you mean don't trust myself?
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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Thanatos10
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: zZZz]
#22137537 - 08/24/15 08:47 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
zZZz said: sounds like depression, man..
is their anything currently bothering u?..
problems at home, work?...
i'm all ears
It's really this whole issue.
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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Kush_Zombie
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10]
#22137888 - 08/24/15 10:10 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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I'm going to get a lot of shit for this but when I start feeling this way I listen to Terence McKenna and suddenly everything is magical and full of life again. Good vibes your way man, I wish you the best
-------------------- How to get started in bulk: Presto 23-Quart Pressure Cooker BOD's Simple as FUCK Still Air Box PastyWhyte's Easy Agar Tek Munchauzen's Cultivation Video Series How EvilMushroom666 Prepares His Grains (I use jars with Synthetic Filter Discs) What is G2G? (Grain-to-Grain) Damion5050's Coir Tek (I use 5.5 - 6 quarts of water instead of 4. Also ignore step 13 and ignore the monotub completely. The only purpose of this tek is to show you how to make a simple substrate. I also add gypsum to it but not necessary) Spitball's Monotub Tek (A liner isn't necessary but is useful) Use 6500k lights throughout the whole process. When you wake up, turn the light on. When you go to sleep turn the light off. It's as simple as that.
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Thanatos10
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Why would Terrance McKenna help me out? It's because of him that I feel into great anxiety
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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Kush_Zombie
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10]
#22139882 - 08/25/15 09:20 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Thanatos10 said: Why would Terrance McKenna help me out? It's because of him that I feel into great anxiety
Different strokes for different folks. Sorry you let someone you've never met in person influence your life so much for the worse
-------------------- How to get started in bulk: Presto 23-Quart Pressure Cooker BOD's Simple as FUCK Still Air Box PastyWhyte's Easy Agar Tek Munchauzen's Cultivation Video Series How EvilMushroom666 Prepares His Grains (I use jars with Synthetic Filter Discs) What is G2G? (Grain-to-Grain) Damion5050's Coir Tek (I use 5.5 - 6 quarts of water instead of 4. Also ignore step 13 and ignore the monotub completely. The only purpose of this tek is to show you how to make a simple substrate. I also add gypsum to it but not necessary) Spitball's Monotub Tek (A liner isn't necessary but is useful) Use 6500k lights throughout the whole process. When you wake up, turn the light on. When you go to sleep turn the light off. It's as simple as that.
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zZZz
jesus


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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10]
#22139962 - 08/25/15 09:46 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Thanatos10 said:
Quote:
zZZz said: sounds like depression, man..
is their anything currently bothering u?..
problems at home, work?...
i'm all ears
It's really this whole issue.
well, imho there's really nothing to figure out..
we can say that nihilism is nihilism itself.. it really has no purpose, it's simply a stage, unless of course u surpass this stage then it becomes like some sort of crutch that helped u kind of make sense of what u were going through at the time, but i mean nihilism itself is a dead end, a puddle of mud, or like quick sand, that slowly consumes its unsuspecting prey.
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Thanatos10
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It's not really someone I never met, it's more like an idea that I never heard about that really doesn't have flaws with it
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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Kush_Zombie
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10]
#22140314 - 08/25/15 10:55 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Everything I've heard McKenna say has been along the lines of "take back your mind" "the world isn't as basic and boring as culture tries to make it out to be" or he's describing his psychedelic experiences
-------------------- How to get started in bulk: Presto 23-Quart Pressure Cooker BOD's Simple as FUCK Still Air Box PastyWhyte's Easy Agar Tek Munchauzen's Cultivation Video Series How EvilMushroom666 Prepares His Grains (I use jars with Synthetic Filter Discs) What is G2G? (Grain-to-Grain) Damion5050's Coir Tek (I use 5.5 - 6 quarts of water instead of 4. Also ignore step 13 and ignore the monotub completely. The only purpose of this tek is to show you how to make a simple substrate. I also add gypsum to it but not necessary) Spitball's Monotub Tek (A liner isn't necessary but is useful) Use 6500k lights throughout the whole process. When you wake up, turn the light on. When you go to sleep turn the light off. It's as simple as that.
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Thanatos10
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But aren't they entirely subjective in that the only meaning they have is what we give them, in that they are inherently meaningless. They are just physical sensations. He even struggled with whether or not his visions meant something or wether they were delusions.
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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DividedQuantum
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10]
#22140588 - 08/25/15 12:00 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Thanatos10 said: But aren't they entirely subjective in that the only meaning they have is what we give them, in that they are inherently meaningless. They are just physical sensations. He even struggled with whether or not his visions meant something or wether they were delusions.
So what? Regardless of how phenomena acquire meaning, they are indeed meaningful. I would go so far as to say that, as psychology and neuroscience become more advanced, there could even be a science of meaning. Who cares why it exists? Just because there is no fundamental meaning for the universe, it doesn't mean we can't as sentient creatures be successful and thrive.
Depression is no mystery, for purely practical purposes. (I know it is still quite mysterious scientifically). Please take the initiative to talk to someone, and get some help. There is absolutely no shame in that.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Kush_Zombie
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Maybe this article will help you. It's one of the main things I've read that helped me overcome my depression. (it doesn't have anything to do with Terence) http://www.the-open-mind.com/getting-through-the-dark-night-of-the-soulimportant-read-as-everyone-experiences-this/#sthash.9qFNaIz5.dpuf Hope it helps
-------------------- How to get started in bulk: Presto 23-Quart Pressure Cooker BOD's Simple as FUCK Still Air Box PastyWhyte's Easy Agar Tek Munchauzen's Cultivation Video Series How EvilMushroom666 Prepares His Grains (I use jars with Synthetic Filter Discs) What is G2G? (Grain-to-Grain) Damion5050's Coir Tek (I use 5.5 - 6 quarts of water instead of 4. Also ignore step 13 and ignore the monotub completely. The only purpose of this tek is to show you how to make a simple substrate. I also add gypsum to it but not necessary) Spitball's Monotub Tek (A liner isn't necessary but is useful) Use 6500k lights throughout the whole process. When you wake up, turn the light on. When you go to sleep turn the light off. It's as simple as that.
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Rahz
Alive Again



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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10]
#22141428 - 08/25/15 03:39 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Thanatos10 said: I don't understand, what do you mean don't trust myself?
Never trust a depressed state of mind. Make sense? It has to do with how you relate to yourself, what you allow yourself to believe. Sometimes better to believe nothing at all.... And of course that leads back into nihilism but again, we're talking about interpretations of reality, not reality. Don't trust your initial thoughts about what nihilism is/means on an emotional level.
I remember when I was a teenager I read a magazine article on Sid Barrett about how he was a middle aged nobody with mental problems living in London off royalties. He was reclusive, overweight, kept to himself. The article also detailed his drug use and several psychotic episodes while he was in Floyd and how his mates had no choice but abandon him. Reading the article, I fell into identification with him, and felt insane. Weak willed I was at the time, my own brain working against me.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Brian Jones
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Rahz]
#22141669 - 08/25/15 04:23 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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I don't believe there is any trouble with nihilism.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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Thanatos10
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Why is that?
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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geffer
Dude


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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10]
#22143224 - 08/25/15 09:12 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Since you are into Terrance McKenna I'm wondering have you been using psychedelics frequently? Doing psychedelics continuously while depressed over a period of time makes it worse. If that's the case take a break for a year. Maybe start excercising regularly and eating healthy if you don't already. If you're depressed that means there is a chemical balance in your brain that you need to work on balancing or it will get worse. I agree with the person who said don't trust yourself. Don't think of your perspective as being the only real perspective. Instead pay attention to how your perspective on everything is shaded by depression. So if you get some depressing thought you can say to yourself "I would never have thought something like that if I wasn't so depressed right now." When I was going through bad depression I found this to be a helpful way to detach myself from the depression and view it realistically while I worked on improving my health. Once your mood improves I bet you'll have a hard time seeing things from the perspective you had when you were depressed
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Kickle
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10]
#22143293 - 08/25/15 09:26 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Thanatos10 said: Simply put, reading about nihilism has made me suicidal. Life seems to have no point or purpose for me anymore and I have no desire to do or aspire towards anything. Sleep is my only respite but I don't want to live that way anymore, I don't want to wake up each day dreading life.
Maybe I don't understand it, maybe it is as bad as it seems, but I need help.
If it's any consolation many great minds on this forum struggle from this. Some moreso than others. And by "this" I mean feelings of hopelessness, suicidal ideation, and a lack of purpose.
As the saying goes: Twas ever thus
Some of us will always peer into the pit and find the pit staring back.
I do wish you the best however. Even though I can relate and find those who have stared into the pit some of the most interesting, wise, and often compassionate individuals around, it doesn't make the journey easier. A poster here prior, Icelander, used to refer to the warrior attitude. I think there may be some utility in that for you. To acknowledge that there is no point and yet to channel your inner warrior in to fight the good fight anyways.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Brian Jones
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10]
#22144422 - 08/26/15 03:19 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Brian Jones said: I don't believe there is any trouble with nihilism.
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Thanatos10 said: Why is that?
It's a joke dude. Nihilists don't believe in anything.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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Thanatos10
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I don't understand how that is supposed to make me feel, I thought there was a point to it.
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10] 2
#22145439 - 08/26/15 10:07 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Looks to me that you've decided to identify with death, demise, dissolution, and last but certainly not least - despair. You took the name Thanatos10, and you've conveniently assumed a possible philosophical position of Nihilism which is one of the two heresies of Buddhism, for example, because it is life-denying, not life-affirming. "Life is a blast," as my wife likes to say to me when I'm down, but to you I suggest that you may well be suffering from clinical depression. My former acquaintances who committed suicide in their teens or 20s, some over 40 years ago made a tragically poor choice. Death may be inevitable, but suicide is like opening a new book o the last page. You have skipped the breadth and depth, the joys and disappointments, and all the lessons that Life teaches. One dies without having first lived. What a waste. If physical death is not the end of experience, dying "in sin" may be a horrible mistake on top of being merely tragic. Suicide might be reasonable under certain circumstances like intractable pain as the result of terminal illness, or choosing to jump from a building rather than be engulfed in burning jet fuel. But if one's body is young and healthy, than the mind can be straightened out, and ought to be. One needs to balance the forces of light and darkness, not submit to the latter. Go get some professional help. I'm a provider of mental health services in real life and that's my advice to you. I've been through a nihilistic phase, but I was 19 years old. Now I'm 62. Life is worth it, despite all the suffering and evil.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: Looks to me that you've decided to identify with death, demise, dissolution, and last but certainly not least - despair. You took the name Thanatos10, and you've conveniently assumed a possible philosophical position of Nihilism which is one of the two heresies of Buddhism, for example, because it is life-denying, not life-affirming. "Life is a blast," as my wife likes to say to me when I'm down, but to you I suggest that you may well be suffering from clinical depression. My former acquaintances who committed suicide in their teens or 20s, some over 40 years ago made a tragically poor choice. Death may be inevitable, but suicide is like opening a new book o the last page. You have skipped the breadth and depth, the joys and disappointments, and all the lessons that Life teaches. One dies without having first lived. What a waste. If physical death is not the end of experience, dying "in sin" may be a horrible mistake on top of being merely tragic. Suicide might be reasonable under certain circumstances like intractable pain as the result of terminal illness, or choosing to jump from a building rather than be engulfed in burning jet fuel. But if one's body is young and healthy, than the mind can be straightened out, and ought to be. One needs to balance the forces of light and darkness, not submit to the latter. Go get some professional help. I'm a provider of mental health services in real life and that's my advice to you. I've been through a nihilistic phase, but I was 19 years old. Now I'm 62. Life is worth it, despite all the suffering and evil.
Excellent advice, especially this:
Quote:
to you I suggest that you may well be suffering from clinical depression.
As I have stated above, this appears to be the case. There are solutions, but you have to seek them. The alternative would be to remain miserable indefinitely.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Thanatos10
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You friends saved themselves potential suffering and pain, what difference does it make if they died then or later. What purpose does the lesson of life (if any, they are probably just opinions) have if you can't take any of it with you when you die? What value is there in life that there isn't in death? Death is the end, the end of pain and torment, a blissful sleep to protect. Life is mostly suffering with a few good moments here and there, and we scrimp and slog for scraps of them (which ironically causes suffering).
How can you "waste life" if it has no inherent value? People seem to value it a lot even though it amounts to nothing in the end.
Everything I do now feels so empty and void, it's like I'm stuck on auto pilot at the moment. If I am depressed it's from this thought process. Art, music, games, love, it all seems so trivial and bland right now. So subjective and pointless.
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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Jokeshopbeard
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10]
#22146985 - 08/26/15 02:52 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Thanatos10 said: Death is the end, the end of pain and torment, a blissful sleep to protect.
This really resonates with me; I have come to feel very excited about 'passing on' from this plane of existence.
Still, whilst I'm here, there's so much to do and learn. More than anything, my time here has become more valuable the more I've learned to be kind, compassionate, and to help not only other people, but also myself.
I'm gonna echo what most others have said here though man, I think what you describe is not just a state of thought - it seems more like an illness. I hope that you explore that avenue man, it could change your life forever.
Peace and love to you brother.
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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Thanatos10
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How does that make it valuable? You're just another human. What we do here amounts to nothing the end? What is the point in doing any of it? What's the point in learning new things or helping others?
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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Jokeshopbeard
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10]
#22147225 - 08/26/15 03:35 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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I can't answer those questions for you brother, I can only relay my own life experiences in the hope that they might help. But at the end of the day, nothing can help you unless you want it to.
You can parade about all day on internet forums talking about how pointless everything is or you can take life by the balls, get some help, and make the most of your time here.
A quote from The Shawshank Redemption seems particularly apt:
"I guess it comes down to a simple choice, really. Get busy living or get busy dying."
I hope you chose the former. I think I've been to the kind of place you are now, and I say with the firmest conviction that it is all worth it.
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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Thanatos10
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How is it worth it? Why stay alive when death promises release from pain and ambiguity?
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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Jokeshopbeard
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10]
#22147337 - 08/26/15 03:57 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Seek help from a mental health professional. Ask those questions again when you've at least tried that path.
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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Thanatos10
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I have, things only get worse and worse in my life
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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Jokeshopbeard
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10]
#22147372 - 08/26/15 04:06 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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To what extent have you?
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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Thanatos10
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A good extent believe me and it has always been wrong.
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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deff
just love everyone



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Quote:
Your life is no accident - you are here for profound reasons... the completion of which often takes years if not lifetimes. When life seems so empty and bleak, be patient and hang on. You are going through a temporary phase that will shift once you go deeper and deeper into the work.
Quote:
No escape - Death is not the answer We may think that everything is rosy and lovey dovey when we leave this earthly existence, but this is not necessarily so. Death is not an escape from our past actions: we take our disturbing desires, earthly attachments, shocking traumas, and resistant selfish ways and will with us wherever we go, even to the other side. One reason why certain religions do not support suicide and the death penalty is the understanding that death is not a cure. Death may provide the soul consciousness a temporary reprieve from the irritations and limitations of the physical body (thus allowing the soul to see life from a clearer "vantage point") but death does not erase the "karma" of ones negative thoughts words feelings and deeds - it only cast a clear light upon them. But at some point (if not in this life time than another), there must be a reckoning and atonement for all that we have left behind us from all our past lives. Every action has its consequences: no one can escape their past... this is Divine Justice - the Universal Law of Karma.
two quotes from a spiritual friend of mine from his healing website
from certain spiritual perspectives, death is not the end of conscious experience, and this life we lead here is a form of school for our consciousness. the idea that conscious experience ends with death is not by any means proven or the only idea floating around about what happens at death. i would recommend that you check out some spiritual traditions, books, teachings, etc... out there and see what resonates with you. changing our view on death i think can have profound impacts on our quality of life and levels of depression. that said, if there is an underlying depression caused by other factors, that too could be influencing your bleak outlook on life, as others have said.
i wish you happiness and a life full of personal meaning and satisfaction
--------------------
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Thanatos10
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: deff]
#22147741 - 08/26/15 05:21 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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If there are lessons to learn how do we know what they are? Who decides that? How do we know they are not the perspective of the individual alone? Such things are far to arbitrary to be of an use.
Also how do we know we have a purpose on this planet or this life? Again who decides that and how do we know? There is no way to tell that aside from faith and that is nothing but the trade of idiots.
To me spirituality is just a waste of time. My whole life I have believed in it and had nothing to show for it. The more I delved into science the less spirituality seemed viable or believable. As for as I know our lives are just an accident and given the state of the world the belief is cemented quite well.
The more days that pass the more pointless and empty life feels. I try to find a way around it but everything is so arbitrary that it seems pointless to make any solid declaration. Our senses are fallible and our knowledge is imperfect. How can we be sure of anything?
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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deff
just love everyone



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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10]
#22147819 - 08/26/15 05:38 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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if spirituality leads to a happy life versus nihilism leading to depression, then i wouldn't say spirituality is a waste of time but everyone is unique in what works for them and interests them, just some food for thought
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Jokeshopbeard
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: deff] 1
#22147876 - 08/26/15 05:47 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
deff said: if spirituality leads to a happy life versus nihilism leading to depression, then i wouldn't say spirituality is a waste of time
That. is. amazing.
Fuckin' nail on the head there deff!!!!!!
Quote:
We may think that everything is rosy and lovey dovey when we leave this earthly existence, but this is not necessarily so. Death is not an escape from our past actions: we take our disturbing desires, earthly attachments, shocking traumas, and resistant selfish ways and will with us wherever we go, even to the other side.
This also resonates very very deeply with me. Faith may well be 'the trade of idiots', and if it is, then I'm a full blown fucking idiot. But an idiot who can't deny the depths of his soul and what is telling him.
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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deff
just love everyone



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--------------------
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


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Yeah I've been convinced for some time now that deff clearly knows what he is talking about.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Jokeshopbeard
Humble Student

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Quote:
DividedQuantum said: Yeah I've been convinced for some time now that deff clearly knows what he is talking about. 
You and me both brother!
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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Thanatos10
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I'm not. Spirituality is just a delusion based on nothing but faith. I just cannot live that way. I need proof not just someone's say so.
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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Thanatos10
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10]
#22147991 - 08/26/15 06:06 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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My brain is just too logical to accept something based on faith. Also spirituality has caused some pretty horrid things as well.
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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Kickle
Wanderer



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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10] 1
#22147999 - 08/26/15 06:07 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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A good approach, to seek some evidence for yourself. I think sometimes people get caught up in seeking others to prove it to them though, rather than to seek to prove it to themselves. Which is perhaps a difficult part of spirituality -- the practice that requires individual effort and cannot be pawned onto another.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Jokeshopbeard
Humble Student

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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10] 1
#22148004 - 08/26/15 06:07 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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My spirituality has absolutely nothing to do with anyone else's say so. It's simply a result of years and years spent questioning everything, and the resulting conclusion I have come to.
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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Thanatos10
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That's the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. How can we even be sure spirituality even exists and not just an idea someone came up with to give people comfort?
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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Kickle
Wanderer



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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10]
#22148045 - 08/26/15 06:12 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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How can we be sure anything exists? It regresses pretty far. I personally stop at personal experience as my line for most practical matters and let impractical matters float in the realm of who effin' knows.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Thanatos10
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Kickle]
#22148070 - 08/26/15 06:14 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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That doesn't answer my question,
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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Kickle
Wanderer



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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10] 1
#22148079 - 08/26/15 06:15 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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No, it tells you where I draw my line for certainty. You have to make your own and then we can discuss. Otherwise you can always move the line into the unknown. All things are unknowable beyond the scope of human capabilities.
Saying "How can I be sure?" needs a qualifier:. What does it take for you to feel sure?
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Thanatos10
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Kickle]
#22148099 - 08/26/15 06:18 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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How can you be sure nihilism is not the truth?
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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Jokeshopbeard
Humble Student

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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10]
#22148103 - 08/26/15 06:19 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Thanatos10 said: That's the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. How can we even be sure spirituality even exists and not just an idea someone came up with to give people comfort?
Your complete rejection of anything not based on logic and proof (and I'm a very logical person) seems ridiculous to me. As I said, my feelings on this matter have not been dictated to me, and therefore are not 'just an idea someone came up with' - they're an idea I came up with.
Perhaps you should further define your concept of 'spirituality'?
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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Kickle
Wanderer



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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10]
#22148114 - 08/26/15 06:20 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Thanatos10 said: How can you be sure nihilism is not the truth?
I'm not sure of that. It falls into the realm of the impractical for me.
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Jokeshopbeard
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Quote:
Jokeshopbeard said: Your complete rejection of anything not based on logic and proof (and I'm a very logical person) seems ridiculous to me.
Sorry man, I take that back. It does not seem ridiculous to me; it just seems to me that you're missing something quite fundamental about about being human.
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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Thanatos10
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And what would that be exactly?
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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Jokeshopbeard
Humble Student

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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10]
#22148191 - 08/26/15 06:35 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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I have to admit man, I'm kinda bereft of motivation to keep on about it. I don't think you're asking that question because you want to question your own beliefs, I think you're asking that question because all you want to do is prove your own beliefs.
Give me a shout back when you're ready to give something outside your current box a try. Here, PM, whatever. I'll always be here for you, as I am for all humans, but I'm only gonna expend my effort if it's gonna be listened to and not instantly shot down in order to fulfill someone else's disappointment with their lot.
Guess what man? We're all disappointed with our lot. It's just some of us work real fuckin hard to do something about it.
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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Thanatos10
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No I honestly do not know thing that you are talking about that I am supposedly missing.
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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Kickle
Wanderer



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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10]
#22148292 - 08/26/15 06:52 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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I think whether JSB wants to field the question he started or not, I like the idea of missing something
Personally I think this is what I'm missing many times. Presence. I think there are many times where I go into a situation expecting something. Whether that be a favorable outcome or more broadly for life to treat me a certain way. And I think in doing so I lose sight almost completely of what's present.
For instance I may start my day groggy and so look to a cup of coffee to lift me up. Now I am focused on doing things to get that coffee going. But an alternative could be to focus on the groggy and see what it's really about. Instinctively I move to coffee but I have had moments where I actively investigate something like grogginess. It's a very different kind of experience. Moving away from the routine thoughts of coffee to avoid grogginess and turning into an active investigation of what is present. Totally different experientially. And honestly even though it's a much more rewarding experience for me to explore grogginess, I usually end up right back looking for coffee the next day.
My personal practice to gain what seems to be missing then falls out as thus: Don't worry about always paying attention to that feeling of groggy. Habit is strong and takes me backwards and can lead to feeling helpless. Instead, focus on being present throughout the day at any possible moment that I can manage. I'm always amazed at how often I'm focusing on the next thing, while doing the first. Brushing my teeth and my head is going on about what else I need to do in order to get to work. Yet I do the same things every day. Do I really need to think about them? Nah, this time let's really feel the sensation of the toothbrush on that canine.
And on, and on, and on.
So I am more often than not missing presence in my day. Which has little or next to nothing to do with meaning IMO. Although presence often feels meaningful in it's own right. Which is not to say it is meaningful. That's why I qualify it with feeling. I find that meaning is a feeling more than a logical concept. Regardless of the feeling of meaning there are a myriad of other pleasant feelings. I could do without meaning and just enjoy all the others alright
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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deff
just love everyone



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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Kickle]
#22148305 - 08/26/15 06:55 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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yeah I like that Kickle, that meaning is a feeling and not based on concepts
--------------------
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Jokeshopbeard
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: deff] 1
#22148339 - 08/26/15 07:02 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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You managed to put that in a very succinct and logical manner Kickle, you really got it IMO, way better than I could've done.
It's only through learning to be present that I have come to see 'the other side of life' so to speak. The part of me that sees the world not through a veil of thoughts, but experiences. That's all it does, and there's something overwhelmingly magical about it. I don't pretend to have the slightest clue what the fuck I'm tapping into when I tap into that space, but it's something far bigger, greater and more magnificent than I ever dreamed of.
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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Thanatos10
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Hmm, so it's simply being present? Not trying for anything else than simply being aware of what's going on right now?
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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Kickle
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10] 4
#22148453 - 08/26/15 07:31 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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For me. Being present with what I do feels more meaningful than going through the motions to get to _______.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Thanatos10
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Kickle]
#22148784 - 08/26/15 08:33 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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So what does that mean with nihilism?
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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Kickle
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10]
#22148893 - 08/26/15 08:49 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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I dunno. It's just an observation from my life. You may observe something else entirely.
It may be that ultimately none of it matters. As far as I can tell in order to exist is a subjective matter, not an objective one. You, the subject, exists. And subjectively it seems we get a pretty good assortment of things going on. And in my experience it isn't up to some omnipotent dictator called nihilism to determine my subjective experience. I am experiencing a lot of things, up to and including meaning. There is nothing more needed in the story as far as I can tell without going into wild speculation. No particular explanation. It just is.
If I experience meaning I experience meaning. If I don't, I don't. I chalk that up to experiencing a multi-faceted life and try not to get stuck on any one aspect of it for too long because that tends to lead to problems IME.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Thanatos10
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Kickle]
#22149021 - 08/26/15 09:11 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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So what does that mean then?
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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Kickle
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10]
#22149040 - 08/26/15 09:14 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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That I'm getting sleepy
Night
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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zZZz
jesus


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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10]
#22149443 - 08/26/15 11:13 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Thanatos10 said: That's the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. How can we even be sure spirituality even exists and not just an idea someone came up with to give people comfort?
one thing;s forsure, u cant knock till u've tried it.
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MarkostheGnostic
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The alternative would be to remain miserable indefinitely.
Unfortunately, that is only one alternative.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10]
#22149544 - 08/26/15 11:46 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Thanatos10 said: How is it worth it? Why stay alive when death promises release from pain and ambiguity?
You're a simple materialist. You have no idea what occurs at physical death, it remains a mystery for all of us. Your "promise" is nothing more than an unfounded assumption which is grounded on your ontologically prior assumption that consciousness is derivative of physical life. It is just as possible that physical life merely allows consciousness to manifest in 3 dimensions, and the conditions of disembodied consciousness depend upon certain factors of which ethics is essential. Consciousness may be Ultimate Reality. The archaic words are Spiritus/Pneuma/Ruach. Therefore, killing anyone, including oneself, is egocentricity dense as the materialism which instigated the act. There's no turning back when the link, the astral cord to the subtle body is permanently severed. And this is an experience that many have had, if only temporarily because the cord was only stretched, not severed. A human birth is a rare opportunity to find peace and I take is on faith from those more experienced than me in metaphysical matters that suicide is a big fucking mistake except perhaps when death is immanent and one can judiciously effect a less painful and traumatic end.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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presentusthefuture
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:
Thanatos10 said: How is it worth it? Why stay alive when death promises release from pain and ambiguity?
A human birth is a rare opportunity to find peace and I take is on faith from those more experienced than me in metaphysical matters that suicide is a big fucking mistake except perhaps when death is immanent and one can judiciously effect a less painful and traumatic end.
Rare opportunity? There'd be no need to 'find peace' if there weren't any struggle or sorrow to begin with...
To be born into this world is to be condemned to this world. We are prisoners here. Prisoners to the never-ending cycle of desires and cravings that our inherent will to live manufactures for us, as it's the only thing it knows how to do. Where every goal achieved results in sowing the seeds of a new desire - lest we fall prey to boredom (which is itself proof that life has no intrinsic value) - the only lasting peace you're going to find in this world is going to occur in the moments preceding the exit of it.
There was a Greek Cyrenaic philosopher named Hegesias that was once banned from ancient Alexandria because of his arguments of death being so much more preferable to life that he was deemed a public health threat. His purported masterwork, "Death by Starvation" has unfortunately been lost to history.
I wonder if this love of the individual self is derivative of the biological will to live that clouds a possible higher realm of existence. Is there not a possibility that a better way of 'being' exists removed from the ego?
OP, if life has gotten too miserable to bear, and the future too bleak or tedious to hope for, just remember that you can, at any time, eject from it. And I don't say this with jest or trivialization. Suicide is a gift granted to man. A gift that not even God/Ultimate Reality has possession over. The only requirement is the conquest of the will to live.
Your life, your choice.
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saenchai
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Dude, I understand the feeling. What you're saying makes total sense and I lived with that sense for a long time when I was younger. In fact you sound just like me 5 or 6 years ago. But materialism is not the end of knowledge. Nihilism is not the end of knowledge. You don't have to take my word for it but don't take your own word for it either, because if my human mind is prone to any sort of misperceptions disguised as rational convictions then so is yours.
Nihilism from its own perspective is a commendable and honest attempt to come to terms with what is but it lacks some fundamental understandings of the purpose of life and existence. When I felt the way you do know, I kept going for what seemed like absolutely no reason and eventually reached understandings which made sense out of the seeming absurdity of our being here. You have absolutely no idea what is coming to you. You have free will and can do whatever you want but I would implore you to stick around for a while longer and see where it takes you.
If you don't, you may be doing yourself a disservice. If you're at the point where you have the ability to think in terms of deeper meanings and abstractions, you've already spent about 20-30 percent of your lifespan. The rest of it will probably go just as quickly. It's something to think about lol.
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Thanatos10
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: saenchai]
#22150747 - 08/27/15 10:19 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Suicide just seems like the only logical answer to this.
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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saenchai
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10]
#22151026 - 08/27/15 11:29 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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OK good luck
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Jokeshopbeard
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10]
#22151116 - 08/27/15 11:50 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Thanatos10 said: Suicide just seems like the only logical answer to this.
I don't think you'd be on a message board saying that if you truly believed it. I think you'd be gone already.
Why are you still here?
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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MarkostheGnostic
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If you're Hellbent on offing yourself, you're gonna do it. I however have been a crisis intervention counselor for decades, and I'm here for those who are still ambivalent. Those who are determined or self-determined to die prematurely, are going to die prematurely. I'm not going to save anyone who does not want help being saved in the same way that nobody is going to be helped by my hypnotherapy practice if they really don't want to change. Existence is sandwiched between non-existence and a Mystery. To assume that the fate of an individual self is non-existence may be absolutely wrong. The dissolution may well be Self-Realization, which clearly is not a concept you are intimately familiar with. It is about Awakening from the relative dream of false self-identification. In your case, you seem to be identified with "the pain body," (Eckhart Tolle's model), and have no cognizance of Being. Theologically speaking, you are experiencing Hell even now - ontological alienation from Being (God). Destroying the instrument which allows for Self-realization is said to result in increased suffering, not the cessation of suffering which requires Wisdom based on Compassion. I see neither in your statements. My life has become increasingly tranquil, but not sedate. I have no inordinate desires and desire scarcely describes my preferences for health, a personal aesthetic that governs my appearance and that of my home and yard. Boredom is an existential illness that I am not plagued by. Anxiety is my constitutional malaise, but I've never become dependent on drugs to manage it. I used to feel imprisoned, but it turned out the imprisonment was caused by the chains of my own desires, not "this world." I feel the pain of this world, most of which is caused by human beings, and I am disturbed at times by my inability to alleviate it (like boiling dogs alive in China, for example). A broken heart results in surrender, and surrender of one's impotent ego brings one closer to the "Unbearable Compassion" which is God. One is tempted to say "If I were God, I would not allow such and such," but such puerile thoughts are just ego assuming that it knows what Life is all about. My response to Life is to Live Life, but to Live Compassionately. Suicide is not in most instances a manifestation of Compassion.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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zZZz
jesus


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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10]
#22152885 - 08/27/15 06:05 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Thanatos10 said: Suicide just seems like the only logical answer to this.
So let me get this straight, i asked u whether there were any current problems in ur life like family or work related stuff, etc.., and u said thAt wasn't the case and ure only problem was ur understanding of nihilism, so basicAlly ure thinking of suicide all because of an article u don't understand??..
Doesn't make sense..
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r72rock
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10]
#22153458 - 08/27/15 08:00 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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I haven't been on in a while, but I'm trying to culminate my thoughts into something coherent. I've been wrestling with nihilism personally for the past 4 or 5 days myself. I kinda skimmed this thread and thought everyone had some awesome input. 
I've been reading Cioran and Ligotti recently (2 very pessimistic/nihilistic philosophers), and they strike me as both enlightening and off the mark at the same time. They talk about misery and despair, anti-natalism, how consciousness is a mistake, how we operate blindly under this assumption that we should affirm life no matter what, and how everything adds up to a big ol' nothing. They also talk about how everything we do and believe is a distraction from this despair and horror that is realized at the core of our being because we live in an unforgiving, indifferent, and cold universe. For Ligotti, whom I was reading, "horror is more real than we are" he argues. I can admit, I buy some of that.
But today I was sitting downtown reading this stuff on a stone bench outside of the subway, and I saw this old lady throwing handfuls of seeds to these birds out of the corner of my eye. This giant group pigeons were just flocking to her. I then saw this little girl run across the square towards this herd of pigeons clapping her hands while laughing. She had the biggest, most genuine smile on her face. She was just filled with awe watching these birds with her eyes and mouth wide open in amazement appreciating the nature of these birds. I then looked down back at my book, which I was so convinced was true 10 minutes prior, and thought, "the default nature for us is to feel horror?" It puzzled me. I mean, I doubt this little girl has thought about the meaning of existence, but I also doubt that she was covering up this deep feeling of horror. Perhaps sometimes, we feel one emotion like joy, other times despair, other times wonder, other times confusion. It doesn't have to be that one emotion "covers up" the other so to speak. So if joy and cheerfulness and happiness and love are all "just distractions" from life, than so is horror and despair and sorrow and disappointment. They're all just emotions on the spectrum of experience.
Sorrow, depression, and despair are usually associated with nihilism, but my previous paragraph was to show that these emotions are no more or less real than other emotions. But what's so bad about nihilism anyways?
One thing for nihilism is that it negates all values. Well then, in one sense, nihilism is self refuting. If nothing matters, then why does our suffering matter? Why would it matter that we lost all values if nothing truly matters? On top of that, we couldn't assess the idea that nothing means anything unless we were alive in the first place. The idea that "it's better to have not been than to be" only comes from a stance of existing.
Nihilism is usually broken up into two categories: moral nihilism and metaphysical nihilism. Moral nihilism is the idea that morality is arbitrary and made up. And metaphysical nihilism is the idea that the universe has no meaning, purpose, or observable structure. Nihilism isn't bad or good. It's just a position.
I think of Moore's refutation of moral nihilism, which I find fascinating. He starts by saying there's a moral fact that we know: that killing babies for fun is wrong. So then he'd posit the question, and ask, is killing babies for fun wrong? He's not asking in an absolute sense, but in a human down to earth sense. "Do you think it's wrong to kill babies?" Most people answer "yeah it is." While one could argue that it isn't wrong, he's not interested in arguing for argument's sake, he's strictly asking this in a personal way. If one doesn't think that it's wrong, then he'd ask why you aren't doing it. And he'd say it's because you know that it's wrong to kill babies for fun. So therefore, there are moral facts according to Moore.
As far as metaphysical nihilism is concerned, I ask myself, "even if there was a God, and he had a plan for me, how would that change my day to day life?" I find that it wouldn't really. I used to think that it'd imbue my life with meaning and purpose. But then I thought that it'd only give my life purpose and meaning because I'd be letting it give me purpose. I'm giving the meaning of my life to something external. I find meaning in my life already, even though as far as I can tell from my stand point, there is no ultimate purpose. I find internal meaning in my life through my activities, through my relationships, and through my morals. I also find external meaning in my relation to others. One thing I loved from a book I read called "There is no God and He's always with you" by Brad Warner was his section on suicide. He wrote (I'm paraphrasing) that one thing he's learned from years of meditation is that the idea that your life is yours to live and do whatever you want with it is short sighted. You're intimately tied in with everything else around you. And taking "your own life" as just your own isn't seeing how you're related in a larger social structure to family, friends, and community.
I've kind of rambled enough . I guess I'm gonna wrap up with some shorts that I thought of when I saw this thread. I've quite enjoyed these.
Quote:
If I was unborn I would have nothing to be grateful for I would have never seen love I would have never held cats I would have never buried my friends And prayed for their souls In reddening churches I would never have kissed And I would never have wept And I would never have seen Black Ships eat the sky And I would have been unborn And not have seen circuses Whilst watching the flowers Rise flags made of atoms Who will deliver me from myself? Who will deliver me from myself?
Current 93, Black Ships Ate the Sky
-------------------- Current favorite candy: Peanut Butter Kisses
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Jokeshopbeard
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: r72rock]
#22153500 - 08/27/15 08:05 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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That's a really great post r72! Thank you!
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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Thanatos10
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I feel like I'm undergoing a transformation that I cannot be certain is either good or bad.
At the moment, human affairs bore me. Looking around at the lives around me I feel like some sort of researcher studying the scurrying of insects. Human forms of popular entertainment hold no value for me anymore. As for my family, I just see them as people I live with. They don't have much emotional cause to me. Speaking of which it seems like emotions have become something vestigial to me, appearing now and then but only in diminished intensity. I don't see the point or value in love or compassion or being in a loving relationship. It seems like a waste of time an effort. I look and think beyond earth, how smal our lives seem. How dull it must be for beings greater than us to watches scurry on the planet. We put so much importance and value on things but it's all relative not universal. The great cosmos cares not what happens to us, we could all die tomorrow and it will still turn. Yet instead of seeking greater heights people seem concerned with just what's around them, bound to a planetary view of things.
I suppose an accurate summary is that I am bored with humanity and all its arbitrary constructs. I'm not entirely sure what this means or if it's even a problem. My mind lately thinks of things beyond this world.
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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zZZz
jesus


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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10]
#22162381 - 08/29/15 08:35 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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i know exactly what u are talking about. i've been there before many times, and still am in many ways, except i no longer let these thoughts get a hold of me.
im curious to know,
have u ever been out into the world?, have you experienced the most highs and lows?, if so, what were they?..
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Thanatos10
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: zZZz]
#22163029 - 08/29/15 11:38 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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I haven't really been out and traveled that much really, I just lump everything together as human.
I haven't had too many highs in my life. A lot of mental crisis occurring has put a huge damper on things.
I just have to remind myself that I am human and don't exist on a cosmic scale and never will understand such a scale.
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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zZZz
jesus


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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10]
#22163043 - 08/29/15 11:45 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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well i think u should try it sometime, travel n shit, see the world for what it is, meet the people, etc..
you;re far from alone
there's some real shit going on in the world and i think u should experience it first hand. it;s incredible, it is scary, it is real..
step out of ur comfort zone
what kind of things do like to do?, any hobbies?,,
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Thanatos10
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: zZZz]
#22163620 - 08/30/15 07:28 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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I just find it hard to shake the feeling that it's so small and dull compared to the cosmos. It's hard for me to not just see it as one planet in a vast sea of darkness.
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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usulpsychonaut


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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10]
#22167844 - 08/31/15 06:18 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Thanatos10 said: Simply put, reading about nihilism has made me suicidal. Life seems to have no point or purpose for me anymore and I have no desire to do or aspire towards anything. Sleep is my only respite but I don't want to live that way anymore, I don't want to wake up each day dreading life.
Maybe I don't understand it, maybe it is as bad as it seems, but I need help.
Depression makes one suicidal not nihilism. I do not believe that nihilism could have anything to do with causing suicidal tendencies. That which helps me is the practice of random belief. This is the only way too flow in my experience. Anything can move me in the moment, I can relate then let it go and believe in the next possibility. I can even be muslim, feminist, communist then a Micheal Jackson fan.
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nuentoter
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It is all pointless as far as we know, you're right. I ask though whats wrong with that? The idea that this life has no purpose, no goal means the ending of this story called life is the same, you die. So it can be at guessed that the ending doesn't matter any more than the last page of a book does. Its about all the pages and stories and experiences in between. So if you know your going to definitely die and that the only thing you can do is change the story of how you got there, then make it a cool fuckin story man.
You understand nihilism so you understand that if you choose to buy a dirt bike and ride it all the way to Peru then guess what, YOU CAN! and why? because it doesn't matter what you do to anyone except YOU. Satisfy the deep wants you have in life. Do what you want because if anyone tells you that it's stupid or a bad idea or whatever then guess what.... it doesn't matter what they think anymore than it matters if you become president or a hardworking middleclass guy with no social life or a happy hippie or the painted silver guy in the park.
Live your life and find beauty where you can and appreciate it. Above all other things DO NO HARM!
I love you my friend and take care of yourself
--------------------
The geometry of us is no chance. We are antennae, we are tuning forks, we are receiver and transmitters of all energy. We are more than we know. - @entheolove "I found I could say things with color and shapes that I couldn't say any other way - things I had no words for" - Georgia O'Keefe I think the word is vagina
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Thanatos10
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: nuentoter]
#22168104 - 08/31/15 08:32 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
nuentoter said: It is all pointless as far as we know, you're right. I ask though whats wrong with that? The idea that this life has no purpose, no goal means the ending of this story called life is the same, you die. So it can be at guessed that the ending doesn't matter any more than the last page of a book does. Its about all the pages and stories and experiences in between. So if you know your going to definitely die and that the only thing you can do is change the story of how you got there, then make it a cool fuckin story man.
You understand nihilism so you understand that if you choose to buy a dirt bike and ride it all the way to Peru then guess what, YOU CAN! and why? because it doesn't matter what you do to anyone except YOU. Satisfy the deep wants you have in life. Do what you want because if anyone tells you that it's stupid or a bad idea or whatever then guess what.... it doesn't matter what they think anymore than it matters if you become president or a hardworking middleclass guy with no social life or a happy hippie or the painted silver guy in the park.
Live your life and find beauty where you can and appreciate it. Above all other things DO NO HARM!
I love you my friend and take care of yourself
Why? The ending of the story is the motivation to even read the book in the first place. If you know how it ends then you know what happens to everyone in the story. If it doesn't matter how you live your life then it doesn't matter if you are happy because you will die. I doesn't matter what you do because you will die and be forgotten. It doesn't matter if you have wants or if they go unfilled. You know what it all amounts to in the end so why bother or delay in inevitable. In a sense, why does what you wrote above matter if we all die some day? Maybe sooner than others.
The pages in between are irrelevant if one knows how the story ends.
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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Rahz
Alive Again



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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10]
#22168243 - 08/31/15 09:33 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Thanatos10 said: Why? The ending of the story is the motivation to even read the book in the first place. If you know how it ends then you know what happens to everyone in the story. If it doesn't matter how you live your life then it doesn't matter if you are happy because you will die. I doesn't matter what you do because you will die and be forgotten. It doesn't matter if you have wants or if they go unfilled. You know what it all amounts to in the end so why bother or delay in inevitable. In a sense, why does what you wrote above matter if we all die some day? Maybe sooner than others.
The pages in between are irrelevant if one knows how the story ends.
The point of eating a hamburger is to have it in your belly, but the fun is in eating it.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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nuentoter
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Rahz]
#22169269 - 08/31/15 01:51 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Well I'm personally glad that I read the entire book and not just the first and last page, mostly because its about the journey the story takes you through. It's about the in between parts man. A road trip for instance can be simply about where you left from and where your going and everything in between in inconsequential. That seems pretty boring so why do that? For myself a road trip is about the experience and sights of the actual trip not where your going, you know that part, its the randomness that can happen along the way that adds the accent notes.
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The geometry of us is no chance. We are antennae, we are tuning forks, we are receiver and transmitters of all energy. We are more than we know. - @entheolove "I found I could say things with color and shapes that I couldn't say any other way - things I had no words for" - Georgia O'Keefe I think the word is vagina
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usulpsychonaut


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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: nuentoter]
#22171182 - 08/31/15 08:43 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Satisfying my deep wants has never been possible. Making the story awesome has always been my intention but always turned out pathetic. So far, not so good.
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zZZz
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10]
#22172070 - 08/31/15 11:53 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Thanatos10 said: I just find it hard to shake the feeling that it's so small and dull compared to the cosmos. It's hard for me to not just see it as one planet in a vast sea of darkness.
you could spend several lifetimes exploring the earth and u still wouldn't even get close to seeing and experiencing all that it has to offer. it's like all the cosmos in one bundle.
u don't even have to travel to see how amazing it is, u can step outside and look at the ground and witness all the wonderful critters crawling around doing their thang, then u look up and u have this huge ball of fire just hanging in the sky. really what makes it dull is all the man made bs that makes it seem like there's nothing out there. yet we have all these amzing things right infront, below, and above us and we hardly bat an eye cuz we're desensitized.
there are miracles all around us. just look at ur computer screen, we're chatting from god knows how far from each other, we could be on two different planets for all we know, and yet here we are. how did we get here?.. i remember when these things only existed in the realm of imagination and now they;re as real as ever.
wake up neo. the matrix has you..
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Thanatos10
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: zZZz]
#22172971 - 09/01/15 08:34 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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I find that being easily amazed at everything around us. If I had several lifetimes I wouldn't spend them exploring earth, that is far too limiting. I could find everything on this planet in maybe like 8-9 lifetimes. Then I would spend the rest in space, the one place we know so little about.
I understand that at first everything at earth seems amazing, but after a while it loses its luster. But when I look up at space I yearn to leave this planet to see what's out there.
There earth is just a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of the cosmos.
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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Jokeshopbeard
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10]
#22173340 - 09/01/15 10:08 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Thanatos10 said: I find that being easily amazed at everything around us. If I had several lifetimes I wouldn't spend them exploring earth, that is far too limiting. I could find everything on this planet in maybe like 8-9 lifetimes. Then I would spend the rest in space, the one place we know so little about.
I understand that at first everything at earth seems amazing, but after a while it loses its luster. But when I look up at space I yearn to leave this planet to see what's out there.
There earth is just a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of the cosmos.
'I know, I'll deal with my existential crisis by taking myself out of reality and aspiring to things that I'll never have the opportunity to achieve!'
Honestly man, that's what I see you doing. Foresaking all that is right under your nose, you look to the unexplored regions of our cosmos where no man has gone before. Unless you're in training right now to be an astronaut, or you've bags full of money, it would probably be wise to stop doing that to yourself - at least until you get a handle on the harsh realities of your own existence.
There was a guy on the forum a while back, who said the following:
As I rejected the idea that I, a fully grown adult male of the most ferocious predatory species on this planet, could ever be a victim of anything or anybody, I haven't felt oppressed since I was a pubescent teenager. That was at least 60 years ago. Only a fool bitches and moans about something that they cannot change, and reality is one of those things. It may not be pretty, or what you want, but it's what you got and it's reality. End of story. --Kool Kat, PS&P forum
The guy knew what he was talking about IMO. Pay particular attention to what he says about reality. I think that goes for all but the most deluded of us.
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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Thanatos10
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I don't get it, why should I look to what's on earth for the answer when the planet is just one out of thousands?
Also how can you not be a victim of anything? Certainly the forces of nature are one such thing was are a victim of as well as the socioeconomic setting we are placed in?
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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Jokeshopbeard
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10]
#22173701 - 09/01/15 11:48 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Ok brother, you go look for answers on all those unexplored planets. Be sure to come back and tell us what you find!!
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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nuentoter
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This planet or others, the answer you want is within, no need to go anywhere except deeper.
Victim:a person harmed, injured, or killed as a result of a crime, accident, or other event or action.
Nature has never take action against, or directed an event towards me, if you ever feel that way you are taking it much too personally. I have never been harmed by nature in any way shape or form that did not come from my own negligence, ignorance, or indifference. Saying this I have grown up in the woods pretty much my whole life, currently living in the biggest town I've ever lived in with a pop. of 2k people and 30 miles of wilderness in all directions leaving town. I've avidly hunt, fish, forage, cut wood for the past 17 years. Even awful weather that has destroyed a woodshed, busted up my old truck was not me being victimized by nature it was me not being cautious and observant of crappy weather and not taking precautionary steps towards cutting down dead standing wood near my house.
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The geometry of us is no chance. We are antennae, we are tuning forks, we are receiver and transmitters of all energy. We are more than we know. - @entheolove "I found I could say things with color and shapes that I couldn't say any other way - things I had no words for" - Georgia O'Keefe I think the word is vagina
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r72rock
Maybe so. Maybe not.




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Quote:
Jokeshopbeard said: As I rejected the idea that I, a fully grown adult male of the most ferocious predatory species on this planet, could ever be a victim of anything or anybody, I haven't felt oppressed since I was a pubescent teenager. That was at least 60 years ago. Only a fool bitches and moans about something that they cannot change, and reality is one of those things. It may not be pretty, or what you want, but it's what you got and it's reality. End of story. --Kool Kat, PS&P forum
I miss Rool Kat! Those are some wise words. I love it. Thanks for sharing this. Totally applicable to this thread too!
-------------------- Current favorite candy: Peanut Butter Kisses
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Thanatos10
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: r72rock]
#22174600 - 09/01/15 04:03 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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How do they apply? They don't negate nihilism, they don't disprove it, they don't add value where there is none.
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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Kurt
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10]
#22174657 - 09/01/15 04:18 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Let's get it straight; what is the ostensible position or argument of "nihilism" that you are suggesting?
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Thanatos10
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Kurt]
#22174689 - 09/01/15 04:28 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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That nothing matters, that there is no point to you, me, or anything else in this universe. There is no purpose or meaning to life and anything we give it is just an illusion to cope with our insignificance.
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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qwertyuiop
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10]
#22174704 - 09/01/15 04:31 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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I struggle with nihilism as well. May I ask how old you are? Very young people like me experience their emotions much more intensely as our prefrontal cortexes are not fully connected to the rest of our brain. Its nice to know that the pain, beauty, anxiety, euphoria and the seemingly overwhelming nature of existence calms down after a while.
I don't actually feel awesome by the way.
Edited by qwertyuiop (09/01/15 04:33 PM)
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Kurt
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10]
#22174893 - 09/01/15 05:28 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Start with putting sentences on their own two feet.
"There is nothing that matters, no meaning, no point, no purpose."
Is this reasonable representation of your view, or would you clarify otherwise?
I just think everybody would benefit from clarity about what is being asserted, to consider how the logically stands, and in what context or consideration.
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Thanatos10
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Kurt]
#22174988 - 09/01/15 05:57 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kurt said: Start with putting sentences on their own two feet.
"There is nothing that matters, no meaning, no point, no purpose."
Is this reasonable representation of your view, or would you clarify otherwise?
I just think everybody would benefit from clarity about what is being asserted, to consider how the logically stands, and in what context or consideration.
That sums it up.
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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Kurt
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10]
#22175539 - 09/01/15 08:04 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Okay, but this seems to still be a little out of focus. What would that statement refer to?
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Thanatos10
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Kurt]
#22175773 - 09/01/15 08:49 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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To everything in general. Human life and human endeavors.
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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nuentoter
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10]
#22175957 - 09/01/15 09:29 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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hmmm if you refer to absolutely everything then i guess my penis has no purpose and no reason to be there, but it is. My bodily structure and intellect provide me the means to survive and to procreate.
If there was no point in anything I'm curious if then most genetics would be contracting and de-evolving into things that do not wish to procreate or eat or find shelter or avoid confrontation because well whats the point?
If nihilism is "There is nothing that matters, no meaning, no point, no purpose." then in a different way of looking at things you have just freed yourself from any stress and worry that has plagued the minds of philosophers and scholars and parents with little children to worry about and so on. You literally never have to worry about anything again because things cannot go bad or good anymore than can on be. With no meaning, point, or purpose to things then the concern for them can be alleviated.
So what happens to the soccer field when the players realize they don't care if they win or loose?
They fly a kite to pass the time.
--------------------
The geometry of us is no chance. We are antennae, we are tuning forks, we are receiver and transmitters of all energy. We are more than we know. - @entheolove "I found I could say things with color and shapes that I couldn't say any other way - things I had no words for" - Georgia O'Keefe I think the word is vagina
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Cognitive_Shift
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: qwertyuiop]
#22176032 - 09/01/15 09:42 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
qwertyuiop said: Very young people like me experience their emotions much more intensely as our prefrontal cortexes are not fully connected to the rest of our brain.
Yep.
-------------------- L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
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r72rock
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10]
#22176043 - 09/01/15 09:44 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Thanatos10 said: How do they apply? They don't negate nihilism, they don't disprove it, they don't add value where there is none.
Because you made a post talking about how you're having trouble with Nihilism, and in it, you're talking about how you're having trouble coming to terms with nihilism. The quote's not trying to negate or disprove anything. It's talking about adopting a certain type of attitude.
When you say things like this:
Quote:
I just can't shake this nagging feeling inside that nothing matters and it's all pointless. I feel a cold sensation in my heart and yet my body feels pretty good. I'm not sure what to make of all this.
and
Quote:
I just can't shake this nagging feeling in my head that tells me it's all pointless. No matter what I do to distract myself.
You're talking about how these ideas are hard to come to terms with and how you feel oppressed by them when the quote that JSB posted was about how to quit fooling yourself and to just accept that it's how reality is.
Nihilism seems disheartening when you operate under these expectations that the world should be a certain way. It should cater to humans. There should be an intrinsic meaning to our lives. There should be a standard set of morals handed down to us, when really, life just is.
Edited by r72rock (09/01/15 09:50 PM)
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Cognitive_Shift
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: r72rock]
#22176066 - 09/01/15 09:48 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Do most people go through the Nihilism faze around 19-20 years old?
-------------------- L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
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Thanatos10
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I'm disheartens because I feel like there is no reason for me to do or attempt anything in life if it doesn't matter. If it all amounts to nothing in the end why bother? Why fall in love? Why try to change the world? Why have fun?
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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Cognitive_Shift
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10]
#22176282 - 09/01/15 10:33 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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In 100 years no one will know who you were and unless you're a historical figure the thought of you will never go through another persons mind till the end of time. Worrying about this is all coming of age stuff though. Eventually you'll figure out life sucks, it's not fair but you just do it anyways.
-------------------- L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
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r72rock
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10]
#22176328 - 09/01/15 10:43 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Thanatos10 said: I'm disheartens because I feel like there is no reason for me to do or attempt anything in life if it doesn't matter. If it all amounts to nothing in the end why bother? Why fall in love? Why try to change the world? Why have fun?
That's exactly what I was talking about. You want to be given a reason. You're expecting a reason. That's what a fool does, as explained by Rool Kat.
Give yourself a reason. You're your own authority.
My response would be, if nothing matters, why wouldn't you bother? Why wouldn't you fall it love? Or try to change the world? Why wouldn't you want to enjoy yourself and have fun? What do you have to lose, nothing? Obviously something matters enough for you to keep coming on this board to try and prove to me, or yourself, that there are no reasons.
Nihilism is an affirmation. It's the affirmation of meaninglessness. I'm personally just skeptical of things that affirm absolutes.
I love this one Sam Keen interview where he was asked about the meaning of life. His answer was something along the lines of, if you abstract it and ask questions about it, then yeah it's trivial and hard to pin down and give an answer, and in an absolute sense, there may be none.
But if you would have asked him a couple weeks prior when he was at a family gathering what the meaning of life was, he'd laugh in your face and dismiss it because at that moment it was obvious to him.
-------------------- Current favorite candy: Peanut Butter Kisses
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Thanatos10
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: r72rock]
#22176606 - 09/02/15 12:09 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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But the point is that if it doesn't matter why do it in the first place?
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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Rahz
Alive Again



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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10] 1
#22176883 - 09/02/15 03:01 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Thanatos10 said: That nothing matters, that there is no point to you, me, or anything else in this universe. There is no purpose or meaning to life and anything we give it is just an illusion to cope with our insignificance.
Purpose simply happens. Part of your purpose seems to be spending time here talking about how life doesn't seem to have purpose.
Permanence is false, but it says nothing of purpose. Life is full of purpose, desperate though it may be at times.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Thanatos10
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Rahz]
#22177454 - 09/02/15 09:23 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said:
Quote:
Thanatos10 said: That nothing matters, that there is no point to you, me, or anything else in this universe. There is no purpose or meaning to life and anything we give it is just an illusion to cope with our insignificance.
Purpose simply happens. Part of your purpose seems to be spending time here talking about how life doesn't seem to have purpose.
Permanence is false, but it says nothing of purpose. Life is full of purpose, desperate though it may be at times.
That is not a purpose, it's trying to find a way to deal with this but nothing is working.
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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Rahz
Alive Again



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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10]
#22177573 - 09/02/15 10:18 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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It is purpose, just not what you would like.
Those are the illusions life is made of. When a person finds value in purpose they may feel they were "born to do this".
The only difference is perceptual.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Thanatos10
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Rahz]
#22177588 - 09/02/15 10:23 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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But doesn't that make it pointless? The way I just see people now is as things, no different than a rock.
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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nuentoter
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10] 3
#22177598 - 09/02/15 10:26 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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After reading through all of this I think I've come to the conclusion that Thanatos10, you may be just lazy, demanding a reason to do anything. Do you really need a reason to do things? Why can't you just make this shit up as you go? Your life, Your rules, some have consequences. Your right though, that none of this really means anything in the end. From my point of view though that in itself frees me of any worry about screwing stuff up or getting it wrong, I can't cuz it doesn't really matter. So I just do what I wanna do and see how it turns out. If it turns out shit then cool it doesn't really matter. If it turns out awesome then I guess I at the least occupied some time that made me happy doing it.
--------------------
The geometry of us is no chance. We are antennae, we are tuning forks, we are receiver and transmitters of all energy. We are more than we know. - @entheolove "I found I could say things with color and shapes that I couldn't say any other way - things I had no words for" - Georgia O'Keefe I think the word is vagina
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Thanatos10
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: nuentoter]
#22178062 - 09/02/15 12:43 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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But that doesn't answer the question. If there is no point and no meaning then why do it to begin with? What's the motivation to do anything?
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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deff
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10]
#22178084 - 09/02/15 12:51 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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do things out of joy and love - simply for the reason that it feels good to do it? why do you need a conceptual lens of meaning to align with a non-conceptual experience like joy and fun?
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Thanatos10
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: deff]
#22178103 - 09/02/15 12:54 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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But there is no point to joy or love either though....
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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deff
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10]
#22178119 - 09/02/15 12:59 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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sure there is! joy is it's own point it sounds like you don't have much joy in your life right now unfortunately
when you experience joy it also can elicit a feeling of deep meaningfulness - not a relational meaning (like "this joy is meaningful because it leads to..." etc) but rather a spontaneous self-referential resonance of self-satisfaction!
i would recommend you try and become happy and joyful - not out of obligation to fulfill a purpose or because there's some objective conceptual point to it - but rather because joy feels great! if you're joyful, I don't think you would find the notion of a lack of inherent objective meaning (which is still just a guess from our point of view) to be something negative. to me it sounds like a case of depression
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Thanatos10
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: deff]
#22178141 - 09/02/15 01:04 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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What joy is there in the void though? What joy is there in being null? How can I be happy when my life has no meaning or purpose? That I'm just as expendable as anyone else?
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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deff
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10]
#22178152 - 09/02/15 01:07 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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when you're in a state of joy, those questions really don't arise
it's like there's two shores separated by a river. on one side where you are, there's conceptual rationality and seeking a meaning that doesn't seem to be forthcoming. on the other shore there's non-conceptual bliss, happiness, joy, love, and ironically a deep sense of self-satisfying meaning. the river is the journey you would need to take to go from one shore to the other, to let go of your insistence of having a conceptual meaning to life or else there's no point to do anything, basically being in a box of excessive intellect without feeling, and moving into something much more fun but only you can cross that river, if you really want to. and it might be hard if you're quite used to your current state, but imo it's the best idea of what you should do what do you have to lose?
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Rahz
Alive Again



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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10] 1
#22178204 - 09/02/15 01:21 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Thanatos10 said: But doesn't that make it pointless? The way I just see people now is as things, no different than a rock.
No, not pointless just transient. You seem to be searching for an ultimate and eternal point/purpose. To my mind this is simply unhinged desire and death anxiety. My point/purpose here is to possibly be helpful to you. 5 minutes from now my purpose will be something else. I have less transient purposes in my life, but no matter how long term something is it will come to an end. That is how reality works, but there are common themes and one body replaces another. Ultimate purpose is something that is inferred based on the regularity of what happens. Many want to get caught up in something larger than themselves, in the process creating idols to worship. I think your point of view is a good counter balance to fanaticism, but if you insist too much in ignoring your own complexity you risk being a fanatic all the same. Bloated self importance through unimportance.
As far as how you see people, is this a normal/natural perceptual selfishness you are experiencing? A lopsided viewpoint, or a righteous individuality? The answer is rarely cut and dry. Your perceptions are likely not as cut and dry as you present them. Perhaps you seek a solitary point of view at the expense of complexity, accepting the opposite of what you wish for to avoid grasping at smoke. But what if such a task is insurmountable, to simple for a human mind to feast on for more than a little while? Perhaps best to turn from such a path or find ones self reduced and gnawing at old bones. You don't have to make up your mind about these things. Hold a dual nature and be curious about it all. If someone tells you to come down off the fence you can tell them to fuck off, with measured firmness knowing they are as human as you.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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nuentoter
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Rahz]
#22178363 - 09/02/15 02:11 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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The answer is "why not?" just as much as it is "why?".
The void........ The absence
the place where all things are equal in their nothingness. The place where because things in any sense of the word (physical things, mental things, spiritual things, whatever things) make no impact.
The realization and acceptance of losing all these things and the attachment to them is an experience that is profound as you have found out. Now you cannot be discriminate about it though, so throw all your feelings of depression or sorrow into the void because they belong there alongside joy and happiness in the end, right?
So now we toss out all the purposes behind the negativity, and since you've already tossed the positive, we're left at neutrality.
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The geometry of us is no chance. We are antennae, we are tuning forks, we are receiver and transmitters of all energy. We are more than we know. - @entheolove "I found I could say things with color and shapes that I couldn't say any other way - things I had no words for" - Georgia O'Keefe I think the word is vagina
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zZZz
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10]
#22178657 - 09/02/15 03:31 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Thanatos10 said: But the point is that if it doesn't matter why do it in the first place?
u dont know that forsure tho. u're just making assumptions at this point.
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Cognitive_Shift
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: zZZz]
#22178676 - 09/02/15 03:34 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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You do it in the first place because it's something to do.
-------------------- L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
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Thanatos10
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Rahz]
#22178727 - 09/02/15 03:44 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said:
Quote:
Thanatos10 said: But doesn't that make it pointless? The way I just see people now is as things, no different than a rock.
No, not pointless just transient. You seem to be searching for an ultimate and eternal point/purpose. To my mind this is simply unhinged desire and death anxiety. My point/purpose here is to possibly be helpful to you. 5 minutes from now my purpose will be something else. I have less transient purposes in my life, but no matter how long term something is it will come to an end. That is how reality works, but there are common themes and one body replaces another. Ultimate purpose is something that is inferred based on the regularity of what happens. Many want to get caught up in something larger than themselves, in the process creating idols to worship. I think your point of view is a good counter balance to fanaticism, but if you insist too much in ignoring your own complexity you risk being a fanatic all the same. Bloated self importance through unimportance.
As far as how you see people, is this a normal/natural perceptual selfishness you are experiencing? A lopsided viewpoint, or a righteous individuality? The answer is rarely cut and dry. Your perceptions are likely not as cut and dry as you present them. Perhaps you seek a solitary point of view at the expense of complexity, accepting the opposite of what you wish for to avoid grasping at smoke. But what if such a task is insurmountable, to simple for a human mind to feast on for more than a little while? Perhaps best to turn from such a path or find ones self reduced and gnawing at old bones. You don't have to make up your mind about these things. Hold a dual nature and be curious about it all. If someone tells you to come down off the fence you can tell them to fuck off, with measured firmness knowing they are as human as you.
I'm afraid I don't quite understand.
On another matter, I have had so much bad happen that I have come to believe that "good" is not good for me.
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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deff
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10]
#22179081 - 09/02/15 05:08 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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"There is no reason not to love, not to be joyous. There is no reason not to celebrate because all of this means nothing, absolutely nothing!" - Rama
just a quote that reminded me of this thread
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deff
just love everyone



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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10] 1
#22179092 - 09/02/15 05:10 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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a possibly insightful enquiry you could do Thanatos, is to enquire into why you're disappointed that there appears to be no objective meaning. Why is that a bad thing to you? I think a lot of this is dissonance between wanting meaning and not finding any - which gives you the options of finding meaning, or letting go of the desire to have meaning. What is meaning anyways? Are concepts true to reality in the first place?
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Thanatos10
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: deff]
#22179233 - 09/02/15 05:42 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
deff said: "There is no reason not to love, not to be joyous. There is no reason not to celebrate because all of this means nothing, absolutely nothing!" - Rama
just a quote that reminded me of this thread 
By the same logic there would be no point to any of those things either.
As for the lack of meaning, it means that nothing I like doing matters at all. Nothing that I do matters, I have no power, I have nothing. Anything I would create would be meaningless and pointless, but the alternative death is just as pointless. So I'm stuck between two worlds with no point in either of them. If nothing I do has any meaning or it doesn't matter then why do anything than rot away? How can I let go of finding meaning and enjoy life? What am I supposed to do then if nothing has a purpose or point? What am I supposed to do aside from being useless?
What am I supposed to do?
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zZZz
jesus


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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10]
#22179302 - 09/02/15 05:54 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Thanatos10 said: On another matter, I have had so much bad happen that I have come to believe that "good" is not good for me.
so in other words, it is YOU who chooses to feel this way, just as you choose to look at the negative side of the spectrum u can easily choose to look at the positive just as well, but u dont want to.. or atleast not at this point in time..
idk what else to tell u, ime the positive triumphs over the negative, always. but i guess it takes being in the negative to realize this.
good luck
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: zZZz]
#22179667 - 09/02/15 07:05 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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It's pretty much impossible to see the positive side to things when every time you try to life throws something to kick you down again.
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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Rahz
Alive Again



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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10]
#22180004 - 09/02/15 08:15 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Thanatos10 said: I'm afraid I don't quite understand.
On another matter, I have had so much bad happen that I have come to believe that "good" is not good for me.
I said nothing of what was good or bad I was simply talking of perceptions. That's for you to decide. Cast off your social conditioning to whatever extent you feel necessary. Of course, if there's no point or purpose in it perhaps you will do nothing. If there's no point or purpose to anything how come you post here? How do you manage to do anything at all?
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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nuentoter
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Rahz]
#22180112 - 09/02/15 08:32 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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fuck it, whats the point of trying to look for a point? why rot away? what would be the point of wasting good flesh?
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The geometry of us is no chance. We are antennae, we are tuning forks, we are receiver and transmitters of all energy. We are more than we know. - @entheolove "I found I could say things with color and shapes that I couldn't say any other way - things I had no words for" - Georgia O'Keefe I think the word is vagina
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zZZz
jesus


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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10]
#22180229 - 09/02/15 08:50 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Thanatos10 said: It's pretty much impossible to see the positive side to things when every time you try to life throws something to kick you down again.
then u dust urself off and try again
or u curl up under a rock and wallow in self pity
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: zZZz]
#22185338 - 09/03/15 09:37 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Nihilism is just a byproduct of an unforgiving culture..or ignorance necessarily..
If everybody was forgiving..we would be living in a utopia..and then we would just call nihilism but one of the many faculties of the thinking mind!
Edited by BrendanFlock (09/03/15 09:37 PM)
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Memories



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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10]
#22185688 - 09/03/15 10:28 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Thanatos10 said: But doesn't that make it pointless? The way I just see people now is as things, no different than a rock.
I used to feel exactly as you do. In fact, I spent most of my conscious life feeling this way, and with it came intense despair, apathy, and anxiety.
Your perspective on things isn't incorrect or illogical. You are correct when you assert that there is no more universal or ultimate value inherent to humans than rocks.
Value is merely a spectrum of feelings of varying importance ascribed to the different components of life, a trait which some organisms have evolved to make choices that are more evolutionarily advantageous.
Finding oneself in such existential conundrums can be extremely painful, often exacerbated if one was fed false hopes of some kind of meaning or purpose that transcended the mere ever shifting whims of humanity.
Basically, I had to leave behind those dreams of some greater meaning and help myself more fully understand how futile said wishes were from the start.
I realized that meaning didn't transcend my subjective self, and that it was then up to me to find life experiences that felt personally meaningful. I've slowly given into the impersonal cycle of change i've come to find myself entrenched it.
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Cognitive_Shift
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You guys should read about absurdism if you're interested in nihilism. It's was the stepping stone that got me out of nihilism and into existentialism.
-------------------- L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
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Thanatos10
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So it's been some time and I have been trying to overcome this. I have read the advice and tried some things, but I just keep backsliding. I don't know if the next day is going to be better or worse than the one before. I feel like such things as love and compassion are useless, I don't even know why people value them so much. I just feel so lost with no direction.
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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nuentoter
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10] 1
#22257709 - 09/18/15 07:29 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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You don't know why people value love of compassion? Read your own posts, that's what happens when people don't value these qualities. Sucks doesn't it?
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The geometry of us is no chance. We are antennae, we are tuning forks, we are receiver and transmitters of all energy. We are more than we know. - @entheolove "I found I could say things with color and shapes that I couldn't say any other way - things I had no words for" - Georgia O'Keefe I think the word is vagina
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Thanatos10
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: nuentoter]
#22257944 - 09/18/15 08:21 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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I don't get it. I just don't see the value or point of those qualities.
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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nuentoter
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10]
#22258797 - 09/19/15 01:51 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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The point is to not feel the way YOU do. It is the positive yin to your negative yang.
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The geometry of us is no chance. We are antennae, we are tuning forks, we are receiver and transmitters of all energy. We are more than we know. - @entheolove "I found I could say things with color and shapes that I couldn't say any other way - things I had no words for" - Georgia O'Keefe I think the word is vagina
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Thanatos10
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: nuentoter]
#22259459 - 09/19/15 09:26 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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But I just don't get it though, I don't see the value in such things. Feeling good isn't so much a point as it is a result of an action. It also doesn't tell me why people value it so much. Why they care what happens to strangers they have never met.
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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Kurt
Thinker, blinker, writer, typer.

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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: nuentoter]
#22260999 - 09/19/15 04:36 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yin and yang seems a mix of passive and assertive. It also has the subtle to it represented by the pin drop. So maybe like that, if there were such things as truth, beauty and goodness, they would grow from a seed of principle.
I think it was well said by Aristotle, in that principle of principle: "any conscious thought or action is for some end, and therefore, rightly examined, for some form of good."
Granted if you think about Aristotle's principle, there is nothing that can be said about that, and so it has rightly been called a tautology. But there is nothing that within consciousness or awareness, can be said outside of this principle of expression either. There is nothing to speak of which is not filled like a jug it seems to me.
Even nature itself is found in such a principle of it's causes, physis, which is really to say that the cause was determined to be only so far as it is uncaused. I will always hold this to be the definitive reading of Aristotle although it doesn't seem to often be seen in face of the immensity of his analyses.
His wisdom may suggest more or less consciously that everything is in how we circumspect causes, and namely the efficient cause of our own. That is definitely there. It is interesting that other systems have held more clearly that a passive element, or emptiness itself is realizable in a similar way, suffice, that just as much as there is dispassion. I wonder about this.
I think Nietzsche well noted there is such a thing as a passive passions, like of resentment and idle envy of others, which is another kind of seed, that is pretty much coming out of a passive or dark element, but not entirely that. The point in looking to that (say into myself ideally) is either in the sharpness of such a criticism, which suggests a more upright attitude, or the general suggestion that if the emptiness or void in myself is something I look for other people to fill, it is just like the seed being dropped. It's the same relation. If my passivity is like that, I will not be able to root the thing out of myself, which I often wish to.
In respect to this thread, I'd note that "values" in general seem like they can be spoken of relativistically, because there is a place for that. But what is it to seek principle? The principles seem to only be displaced by the new seeds...
Edited by Kurt (09/19/15 09:15 PM)
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BrendanFlock
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Kurt]
#22266321 - 09/20/15 06:26 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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This is an interesting discussion..im off drugs but for some reason I feel a bit brighter...it might be the case that whatever mood your in..there will always be something that can illuminate your life, like me typing up this response..and what your nihilism might be doing..is just going over everything to see what you want to do..and what applies to your life..The funny thing about nihilism..is that it cant end at nothing at all because you are here..so that you may think that nothing is real..but you can never deny the independent reality of your thoughts, senses and awareness...
So its kind of a motivator and positive reinforcer..although it took me several months to get over my nihilistic depression..in the end you can find the inner awareness and sense of something beyond words..which is totally pure and fun..and then you may me someone who changes your world around
and from there you learn a new responsibility one that may change your life for the better..otherwise you just need to keep searching..Searching for something better..and something that seems honest..and therein has real value..I know nihilism is about deconstructing your normal value system..so im honestly happy for you..even though you think nothing specifically may help you..It is a wonder, the dark night of the soul..but afterwords you build up lots of energy..and gain special powers and stuff..
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gent
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Maybe deep down you, you just want to change your lifestyle into a more inspiring and animate one, because sometimes bad things happen to make things good,just like the yin and yang.
Maybe you know that you can do it...
I don't know,try staying stoned all the time and seeking a more emotional or spiritual behavior towards your relationships,and start working out and doing yoga/meditating and more reading. I don't know if i relate to you but sometimes that's all that there is to it and you just don't realize it. I dont know im just giving my thought in here.
Edited by gent (09/21/15 06:44 PM)
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BrendanFlock
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: gent]
#22280650 - 09/23/15 08:29 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yo..i found the easiest key to defeat lazyness..
to do things like meditation
yoga..
and other thought exercises...
internal martial arts
and reiki..
Ok so im going to tell you the secret..its very easy and after you hear it will make the rest of your life more simpler...
Do you want to learn the secret?
Well here goes..
You do not have to specifically set a time to mediate or do yoga anymore..with the new age that we are living in..
Heres what you do...Begin by saying that i want to mediate and do yoga for example..
After that..whenever you think about it..dont go out of your way unless you really want to..but basically do nothing...the thought will occupy your mind for a few frames of perpcetion..and when it does..you have there in found your key..
The very thought of thinking to meditate will last as long as you are freely focusing on it..and thats the begining..and from there you just keep going on into mediation until you think of something else to do..
So the key concept is to do it the immediate instant you think of it..
and because thoughts occupy your mind for a few seconds or maybe longer...the practice takes place automatically...
and this is the same for yoga..as far as mental and mind over matter is concerned..you just begin to do it with your body..and you will feel your astral body..and from there you can either go into astral forms or magical passes..like as Castenada..or you can begin with mind over matter..
To do the yoga outside your body..you first imagine it ..and then you put your physical will into it..you dont really do yoga as far as what someone else can tell by looking at you physically, but you have indeed begun performing yoga!
and so through out your day..you do indeed keep picking up the specific practice...as it occupies your mind and body..and then you drop it
only to pick it up later...
This works because it follows a natural rhythm of your thoughts, emotions and self disposition..
Thank you, i think i am a genius in this regard and am very benefiting of this practice... please try it and see what you think..
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