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Thanatos10
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That's the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. How can we even be sure spirituality even exists and not just an idea someone came up with to give people comfort?
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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Kickle
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10]
#22148045 - 08/26/15 06:12 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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How can we be sure anything exists? It regresses pretty far. I personally stop at personal experience as my line for most practical matters and let impractical matters float in the realm of who effin' knows.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Thanatos10
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Kickle]
#22148070 - 08/26/15 06:14 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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That doesn't answer my question,
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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Kickle
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10] 1
#22148079 - 08/26/15 06:15 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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No, it tells you where I draw my line for certainty. You have to make your own and then we can discuss. Otherwise you can always move the line into the unknown. All things are unknowable beyond the scope of human capabilities.
Saying "How can I be sure?" needs a qualifier:. What does it take for you to feel sure?
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Thanatos10
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Kickle]
#22148099 - 08/26/15 06:18 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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How can you be sure nihilism is not the truth?
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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Jokeshopbeard
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10]
#22148103 - 08/26/15 06:19 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Thanatos10 said: That's the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. How can we even be sure spirituality even exists and not just an idea someone came up with to give people comfort?
Your complete rejection of anything not based on logic and proof (and I'm a very logical person) seems ridiculous to me. As I said, my feelings on this matter have not been dictated to me, and therefore are not 'just an idea someone came up with' - they're an idea I came up with.
Perhaps you should further define your concept of 'spirituality'?
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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Kickle
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10]
#22148114 - 08/26/15 06:20 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Thanatos10 said: How can you be sure nihilism is not the truth?
I'm not sure of that. It falls into the realm of the impractical for me.
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Jokeshopbeard
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Quote:
Jokeshopbeard said: Your complete rejection of anything not based on logic and proof (and I'm a very logical person) seems ridiculous to me.
Sorry man, I take that back. It does not seem ridiculous to me; it just seems to me that you're missing something quite fundamental about about being human.
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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Thanatos10
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And what would that be exactly?
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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Jokeshopbeard
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10]
#22148191 - 08/26/15 06:35 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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I have to admit man, I'm kinda bereft of motivation to keep on about it. I don't think you're asking that question because you want to question your own beliefs, I think you're asking that question because all you want to do is prove your own beliefs.
Give me a shout back when you're ready to give something outside your current box a try. Here, PM, whatever. I'll always be here for you, as I am for all humans, but I'm only gonna expend my effort if it's gonna be listened to and not instantly shot down in order to fulfill someone else's disappointment with their lot.
Guess what man? We're all disappointed with our lot. It's just some of us work real fuckin hard to do something about it.
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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Thanatos10
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No I honestly do not know thing that you are talking about that I am supposedly missing.
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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Kickle
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10]
#22148292 - 08/26/15 06:52 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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I think whether JSB wants to field the question he started or not, I like the idea of missing something
Personally I think this is what I'm missing many times. Presence. I think there are many times where I go into a situation expecting something. Whether that be a favorable outcome or more broadly for life to treat me a certain way. And I think in doing so I lose sight almost completely of what's present.
For instance I may start my day groggy and so look to a cup of coffee to lift me up. Now I am focused on doing things to get that coffee going. But an alternative could be to focus on the groggy and see what it's really about. Instinctively I move to coffee but I have had moments where I actively investigate something like grogginess. It's a very different kind of experience. Moving away from the routine thoughts of coffee to avoid grogginess and turning into an active investigation of what is present. Totally different experientially. And honestly even though it's a much more rewarding experience for me to explore grogginess, I usually end up right back looking for coffee the next day.
My personal practice to gain what seems to be missing then falls out as thus: Don't worry about always paying attention to that feeling of groggy. Habit is strong and takes me backwards and can lead to feeling helpless. Instead, focus on being present throughout the day at any possible moment that I can manage. I'm always amazed at how often I'm focusing on the next thing, while doing the first. Brushing my teeth and my head is going on about what else I need to do in order to get to work. Yet I do the same things every day. Do I really need to think about them? Nah, this time let's really feel the sensation of the toothbrush on that canine.
And on, and on, and on.
So I am more often than not missing presence in my day. Which has little or next to nothing to do with meaning IMO. Although presence often feels meaningful in it's own right. Which is not to say it is meaningful. That's why I qualify it with feeling. I find that meaning is a feeling more than a logical concept. Regardless of the feeling of meaning there are a myriad of other pleasant feelings. I could do without meaning and just enjoy all the others alright
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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deff
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Kickle]
#22148305 - 08/26/15 06:55 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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yeah I like that Kickle, that meaning is a feeling and not based on concepts
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Jokeshopbeard
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: deff] 1
#22148339 - 08/26/15 07:02 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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You managed to put that in a very succinct and logical manner Kickle, you really got it IMO, way better than I could've done.
It's only through learning to be present that I have come to see 'the other side of life' so to speak. The part of me that sees the world not through a veil of thoughts, but experiences. That's all it does, and there's something overwhelmingly magical about it. I don't pretend to have the slightest clue what the fuck I'm tapping into when I tap into that space, but it's something far bigger, greater and more magnificent than I ever dreamed of.
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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Thanatos10
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Hmm, so it's simply being present? Not trying for anything else than simply being aware of what's going on right now?
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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Kickle
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10] 4
#22148453 - 08/26/15 07:31 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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For me. Being present with what I do feels more meaningful than going through the motions to get to _______.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Thanatos10
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Kickle]
#22148784 - 08/26/15 08:33 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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So what does that mean with nihilism?
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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Kickle
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10]
#22148893 - 08/26/15 08:49 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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I dunno. It's just an observation from my life. You may observe something else entirely.
It may be that ultimately none of it matters. As far as I can tell in order to exist is a subjective matter, not an objective one. You, the subject, exists. And subjectively it seems we get a pretty good assortment of things going on. And in my experience it isn't up to some omnipotent dictator called nihilism to determine my subjective experience. I am experiencing a lot of things, up to and including meaning. There is nothing more needed in the story as far as I can tell without going into wild speculation. No particular explanation. It just is.
If I experience meaning I experience meaning. If I don't, I don't. I chalk that up to experiencing a multi-faceted life and try not to get stuck on any one aspect of it for too long because that tends to lead to problems IME.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Thanatos10
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Kickle]
#22149021 - 08/26/15 09:11 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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So what does that mean then?
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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Kickle
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Re: Trouble with Nihilism [Re: Thanatos10]
#22149040 - 08/26/15 09:14 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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That I'm getting sleepy
Night
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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