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Stewbid1
Susan Spores (Priestess)



Registered: 10/04/12
Posts: 114
Last seen: 2 months, 28 days
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OOps, I tried to reply and I have no clue where I just posted it lol. Yes, I ate all 3 of those over a few days. I ate them whole and fresh after rinsing the dirt off. It was the mushrooms. Better than a 5 hour energy and no jitters or crash!
I might as well try the bug in some agar.. lol good point.
It sounds like we found them around very similar terrain, one of your pics looks like it's on an oak leaf, no? I found them in a mixed forest as well, with pines.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." ~TM
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Alan Rockefeller
Mycologist

Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 48,276
Last seen: 55 minutes
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Quote:
foragedfungus said: Elaphocordyceps ophioglossoides (growing from Elaphomyces)
Now known as Tolypocladium ophioglossoides, here's the paper on it: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4107890/
Here are my photos of this species, from Zacualtipan, Hidalgo, Mexico:

Cross section hymenophore / perithecia 40x

Cross section hymenophore / perithecia 400x

Spores

About the Cordyceps militaris, there are several species in this group and I recommend DNA sequencing to clarify things. If you have a spare $20, please send it to alvalab.es and post the sequence you get back here.
Regarding the one you need ID on, that is an interesting species. I asked a Cordyceps expert her opinion, if you don't hear back within a week PM me and I will find more Cordyceps experts.
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foragedfungus


Registered: 09/30/13
Posts: 1,849
Loc: out there
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Stewbid1- You should try. the best looking dishes I made came from the colonized bug inside the cocoon.
Alan-Thanks for the info. Great pictures (as always). I'm a little low on cash for dna sequencing this week. But I do have dried specimens and a clone going on agar. so in the near future.
I'm very interested in what this expert (or others) will have to say. Here is a closer up shot of the only identifying characteristic I could get in focus. The tip of the bugs tail (or head?).
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RogerSmith

Registered: 01/29/15 
Posts: 365
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Alan Rockefeller said: Regarding the one you need ID on, that is an interesting species. I asked a Cordyceps expert her opinion, if you don't hear back within a week PM me and I will find more Cordyceps experts.
This one looks similar to cordyceps in this video at 1:52 - 1:55. It's the first video when you search cordyceps on youtube actually, most of the video talks about cordyceps and ants, after my mark there are few nice shots of different cordyceps. I think some funghi shown are isaria. Maybe this one could be some sort of Isaria too? But the yellow color is a bit unusual for Isaria I think.

I have a few questions for you Alan, i don't expect you to know the answers, but I may as well as try since you r here.
Why does C. Militaris stop producing fruits from old culture? The culture itself changes also. It grows slower, it grows thicker, and it doesn't color orange - or if it does it is hardly noticable. I'm still researching how this degeneration works (for example I am testing fruiting capabilities of culture stored in different ways, cloning, lc, slants, petri, temperature, .. - it is very time consuming).
Do any other cordyceps species degenerate, or is this exclusive for militaris? Do Isaria species degenerate? (some species can be cultivated if I'm right, I think tenuipes).
 Here is a comparison between old and "fresh" culture, they went to fruiting room at the same time, the old was colonizing more than 2 months, the "fresh" was finished in less than 14 days.
I also found out that C.M. mycelium has interesting characteristic. I think cells from mycelium get separated pretty quick, because everytime any kind of water in my petri touches mycelium, it carries the culture. So mycelium grows from anywhere water gets in contact with. Or if you roll wedge around on grains, mycelium pops op everywhere wedge contacted grains. Do any other mushrooms have this characteristic? Do you know what I'm talking about or are you hearing this for the first time?
Here is also an interesting tree of life for cordyceps species, I was suprised to see it is related to Claviceps species.

EDIT: I also wonder how long does cordyceps grow fruiting body in the nature. Invitro it grows 30-45 days. But I doubt it would need this long in wild
Edited by RogerSmith (09/07/15 10:16 AM)
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Alan Rockefeller
Mycologist

Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 48,276
Last seen: 55 minutes
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Quote:
foragedfungus said: I'm very interested in what this expert (or others) will have to say. Here is a closer up shot of the only identifying characteristic I could get in focus. The tip of the bugs tail (or head?).
I guess it's a Coleoptera.
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Why does C. Militaris stop producing fruits from old culture? The culture itself changes also. It grows slower, it grows thicker, and it doesn't color orange - or if it does it is hardly noticable. I'm still researching how this degeneration works (for example I am testing fruiting capabilities of culture stored in different ways, cloning, lc, slants, petri, temperature, .. - it is very time consuming).
Do any other cordyceps species degenerate, or is this exclusive for militaris? Do Isaria species degenerate? (some species can be cultivated if I'm right, I think tenuipes).
I don't know. I have never grown any mushrooms so I don't have any opinion on cultivation stuff.
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I also found out that C.M. mycelium has interesting characteristic. I think cells from mycelium get separated pretty quick, because everytime any kind of water in my petri touches mycelium, it carries the culture. So mycelium grows from anywhere water gets in contact with. Or if you roll wedge around on grains, mycelium pops op everywhere wedge contacted grains. Do any other mushrooms have this characteristic? Do you know what I'm talking about or are you hearing this for the first time?
I don't know - maybe it is making asexual spores?
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EDIT: I also wonder how long does cordyceps grow fruiting body in the nature. Invitro it grows 30-45 days. But I doubt it would need this long in wild
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foragedfungus


Registered: 09/30/13
Posts: 1,849
Loc: out there
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Went out hiking today and found all sorts of cordyceps!!!!!
Isaria sp. (thanks rogersmith for telling me about these, wouldn't have found it if you didn't mention them earlier in this thread.)

This one I have no idea on

Cordyceps canadensis (I think)

Another C.militaris, 6th one I've found this season
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Alan Rockefeller
Mycologist

Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 48,276
Last seen: 55 minutes
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Quote:
foragedfungus said:
This one I have no idea on
Looks like Cordyceps melolonthae.
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foragedfungus


Registered: 09/30/13
Posts: 1,849
Loc: out there
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Alan thank you for your help. I have sent an email to the address you gave me, I will update this thread when (if) I hear back. I don't think my most recent find is C.melolnthae, from what I can find that species grows on beetle larvae, the host of the one I found is a cicada. I pulled some more of the mycelium off to see the bug better.
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Alan Rockefeller
Mycologist

Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 48,276
Last seen: 55 minutes
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Quote:
foragedfungus said: Alan thank you for your help. I have sent an email to the address you gave me, I will update this thread when (if) I hear back. I don't think my most recent find is C.melolnthae, from what I can find that species grows on beetle larvae, the host of the one I found is a cicada. I pulled some more of the mycelium off to see the bug better.
Correctly identifying the insect, at least to family level is extremely important for Cordyceps identification. When I am in the field, I just look to see if it is Coleoptera or Lepidoptera.
Since yours is in a cicada, how about Cordyceps cicadae?
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foragedfungus


Registered: 09/30/13
Posts: 1,849
Loc: out there
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Quote:
Alan Rockefeller said: Since yours is in a cicada, how about Cordyceps cicadae?
It does not look like the photos of C.cicadae that I find online, but most (all?) of them are from china and thailand.
The same day I found this I ran into BobZimmer in the woods. He showed me a similar cordyceps that he found. It was also growing from a cicada, but had a slightly different shape and was much darker colored. The morphology could just vary based on environment, or age?
I did include photos of this latest find in my email to your expert, so hopefully he will get back to me.
Here is a study where they cultivate C. cicadae, and they found medicinal compounds. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3768836/
I will try cloning it this afternoon (I hope I didn't wait too long). It is much larger than C.militaris so it should be easier to get a tissue sample.
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Alan Rockefeller
Mycologist

Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 48,276
Last seen: 55 minutes
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Quote:
foragedfungus said: The same day I found this I ran into BobZimmer in the woods.
Lucky! I have always wanted to run into him so I can tell him how awesome Barak Obama is. I do it on Facebook pretty often, and it's funny, but would be funnier in person.
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He showed me a similar cordyceps that he found. It was also growing from a cicada, but had a slightly different shape and was much darker colored. The morphology could just vary based on environment, or age?
Probably the same - checking microscopic features and the DNA sequences can help figure these things out.
DNA sequencing is how they learned that Isaria is really an anamorph of Cordyceps - they looked super different, but have identical sequences. The teleomorphs look cooler in my opinion.
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I did include photos of this latest find in my email to your expert, so hopefully he will get back to me.
He moved to New York yesterday, so he is probably a bit busy, but if he does not get back to you I will send someone to his house to break his fingers.
There are going to be a lot of misidentified Cordyceps photos on the web - try to find out where the holotype was collected and get photos from as close to that area as possible. I gave all of my Mexican Cordyceps collections to a really hot girl in Mexico City, and she sequenced them all and found several new species. Most things that we think of as species are actually groups, for example Cordyceps unilateralis, the one that grows on ants has one name for thousands of species.
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RogerSmith

Registered: 01/29/15 
Posts: 365
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Really beautiful pics foragedfungus!
That cordyceps looks like Cicadae to me but who knows.
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Alan Rockefeller said: DNA sequencing is how they learned that Isaria is really an anamorph of Cordyceps - they looked super different, but have identical sequences. The teleomorphs look cooler in my opinion.
I think I read something similar somewhere but I'm a bit confused. Anamorph means that it doesn't produce fruiting body because it is asexual. But Isaria clearly makes white body. This white body should produce spores, right? I mean, what would be the point of growing body without spores.
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foragedfungus


Registered: 09/30/13
Posts: 1,849
Loc: out there
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Quote:
Alan Rockefeller said: Lucky! I have always wanted to run into him so I can tell him how awesome Barak Obama is.
I thought I was lucky to run into him because he knows way more about mushrooms than me. He's actually kinda liberal compared to the rest of our town. There are multiple houses on my block that fly confederate flags on the porch!! In New York state!!!
Quote:
Probably the same - checking microscopic features and the DNA sequences can help figure these things out.
DNA sequencing is how they learned that Isaria is really an anamorph of Cordyceps - they looked super different, but have identical sequences. The teleomorphs look cooler in my opinion.
I am a little confused by this concept. The anamorph makes asexual spores. So these spores do not need to meet other spores to form new colonies? The teleomorph produces sexual spores. these spores need to combine with other sexual spores to form a new colony?
Isaria is the anamorph and cordyceps the teleomorph?
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if he does not get back to you I will send someone to his house to break his fingers.
Seems a bit extreme, maybe just a second email/call?
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I gave all of my Mexican Cordyceps collections to a really hot girl in Mexico City, and she sequenced them all and found several new species.
Guess I'm going to have to start saving up for DNA sequencing.
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RogerSmith said: Really beautiful pics foragedfungus!
Thank you RogerSmith, but they are actually mediocre pictures of really beautiful fungi!
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That cordyceps looks like Cicadae to me but who knows.
Hopefully this expert Alan referred me to.
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I think I read something similar somewhere but I'm a bit confused. Anamorph means that it doesn't produce fruiting body because it is asexual. But Isaria clearly makes white body. This white body should produce spores, right? I mean, what would be the point of growing body without spores.
The Isaria That I found was definitely producing spores, it made a cloud of dust when I touched it, you can see the white powder all around it in the picture. I THINK the spores it produces are asexual? But I am also kind of confused by this concept.
Update- I think I've finally got a clean culture from the C. militaris!
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RogerSmith

Registered: 01/29/15 
Posts: 365
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Quote:
foragedfungus said:
Quote:
I think I read something similar somewhere but I'm a bit confused. Anamorph means that it doesn't produce fruiting body because it is asexual. But Isaria clearly makes white body. This white body should produce spores, right? I mean, what would be the point of growing body without spores.
The Isaria That I found was definitely producing spores, it made a cloud of dust when I touched it, you can see the white powder all around it in the picture. I THINK the spores it produces are asexual? But I am also kind of confused by this concept.
I don't think any spores can be asexual. (Am I right Alan?) Well, ascospores divide into smaller part-spores, I think 1 C.M. ascospore divides to 128 part-spores if i remembered correct. But those part-spores still have have 2 mating types (I remember MAT-1 & MAT-2 from science articles).
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Alan Rockefeller
Mycologist

Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 48,276
Last seen: 55 minutes
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Quote:
foragedfungus said: He's actually kinda liberal compared to the rest of our town. There are multiple houses on my block that fly confederate flags on the porch!! In New York state!!!
Haha yea he is super cool. I just like to tease him because he always posts anti-obama stuff on Facebook. Last year I married him and he was not amused. You can marry anyone you want on Facebook if they aren't already in a relationship - if they don't accept the announcement still goes to all of your friends. If you have a lot of friends in common with the person, doesn't really matter that they reject your proposal.
I can't believe that there are confederate flags in New York state!!! I have never seen one in California or Mexico, I only see them on Facebook : )
Speaking of confederate flags, I saw this yesterday and thought it was pretty funny. These people impersonate customer service reps and give hilarious responses.

http://www.wehopethathelps.com
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The anamorph makes asexual spores. So these spores do not need to meet other spores to form new colonies?
Right! At the expense of genetic diversity.
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The teleomorph produces sexual spores. these spores need to combine with other sexual spores to form a new colony?
Yes, this gives them genetic diversity so that one single type of parasite can't wipe out the entire population.
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Isaria is the anamorph and cordyceps the teleomorph?
Exactly. Except that the C in Cordyceps should be capitalized and it should be in italics. That's the rules : )
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if he does not get back to you I will send someone to his house to break his fingers.
Seems a bit extreme, maybe just a second email/call?
That's what I meant. I am in Mexico so email it is!
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Guess I'm going to have to start saving up for DNA sequencing.
Yes! It's $20 a pop from alvalab.es, or I can help you set up a DNA lab in a spare room in your house and that will run you about $1500, plus $7 or so per sample, and countless hours of your life. But if you like chemicals as much as I do, it's totally worth it!
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Thank you RogerSmith, but they are actually mediocre pictures of really beautiful fungi!
They could use a little more depth of field, so close the aperture on your camera a bit. Assuming your camera has an aperture - if not, back off a bit & crop. The lighting could be better, a ring flash would really make these photos awesome. Or if you like the natural look, tape some tinfoil to some cardboard and use that to reflect more light.
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The Isaria That I found was definitely producing spores, it made a cloud of dust when I touched it, you can see the white powder all around it in the picture. I THINK the spores it produces are asexual? But I am also kind of confused by this concept.
Every time I scope Isaria spores, they are bean shaped which leads me to Isaria tenuipes. Clearly this ID is wrong, but it's the best I can do without DNA sequencing. Unfortunately I don't have my DNA lab with me in Mexico - some of the chemicals require refrigeration and I can't run a refrigerator 24/7 in my jeep. Also the PCR machine takes quite a bit of power so it isn't practical to run one in the middle of nowhere. If I was staying in hotels I could totally do it, but I am not a fancy guy and I sleep in the woods every day.
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Update- I think I've finally got a clean culture from the C. militaris!
Oh that is cool! I heard that there are a lot of species in that group and you should sequence it. You can send a fruit body to alvalab.es, or probably you could scrape some mycelium from the petri dish and send that! I wonder where the type location is, and on what kind of insect the holotype collection was growing on.
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foragedfungus


Registered: 09/30/13
Posts: 1,849
Loc: out there
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I still haven't sent any samples out to be sequenced, but I am saving the dried specimens.
In the mean time here's another (different?!?!?) Cordyceps mushroom! Growing from an underground (pretty much fully digested) elaphomyces.
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TheShroomanizer
Stranger-Danger


Registered: 06/12/09
Posts: 1,571
Loc: The Swamp
Last seen: 9 months, 1 day
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looks like some cordyceps capitata I have found in the past. althought if I recall, their caps were yellower/greenish
-------------------- Trading Prints -Nature gave us one tongue and two ears so we could listen twice as much as we speak-
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Alan Rockefeller
Mycologist

Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 48,276
Last seen: 55 minutes
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Quote:
foragedfungus said: I still haven't sent any samples out to be sequenced, but I am saving the dried specimens.
In the mean time here's another (different?!?!?) Cordyceps mushroom! Growing from an underground (pretty much fully digested) elaphomyces.
Tolypocladium longisegmentum
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