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resonant111
left ∞ right

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Is the counter-culture brainwashed?
#22126742 - 08/22/15 12:50 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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The average shroomerite typically accepts one or more of the following worldviews: (Yes I'm going to generalize)
-psychedelics have the potential to unlock some sort of "truth" or ultimate reality. -material culture is ignorant and blind to truth -the government keeps psychedelics illegal to profit and keep us from accessing truth -question authority, create your own reality -fascination in some sort of spiritual system or philosophy with "enlightenment" as the end goal
so i'd like to ask us...are we all full of bullshit? are we merely repeating the same mental-programs that leary, mckenna and the like ingrained into the counter-culture decades ago? are we really finding truth, or pretending to have conveniently found it? do we really think for ourselves or are we a cliche? did we just choose this psychedelic tribe because we felt out of place in traditional society?
I think these are all valid questions. Let's discuss.
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Jaegar
Formless One



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Re: Is the counter-culture brainwashed? [Re: resonant111]
#22126762 - 08/22/15 12:55 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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If you wade through the shit what do you hope to find at the bottom?
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resonant111
left ∞ right

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Re: Is the counter-culture brainwashed? [Re: Jaegar]
#22126773 - 08/22/15 12:59 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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More shit? An endless sewerage of poo-water?
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ONE OZ SLUG
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Registered: 05/22/13
Posts: 17,839
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Re: Is the counter-culture brainwashed? [Re: resonant111]
#22126988 - 08/22/15 01:34 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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I think a lot of it has to do with people being lost, or perhaps they feel outcasted, and adopting these beliefs makes them feel at home.
Some people feel the system that was supposedly created to protect us find it very harmful, and their solution is to go against the grain as much as possible.
I think most people at some point realize that psychedelics don't hold the key to the truth. Perhaps they realize that psychedelics raise more questions than answers.
If the counter-culture movement in the 60's was so revolutionary, where is it now? Why did it disappear into obscurity?
I'm kind of rambling but I hope what I say is making sense. Counter-culture is a fad to some degree, and people follow it because that's what makes them comfortable.
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resonant111
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Re: Is the counter-culture brainwashed? [Re: ONE OZ SLUG]
#22127113 - 08/22/15 01:48 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Interesting thoughts One Oz...i'd agree with most of that. i wouldn't say it fizzled out at all though...the counterculture is probably bigger than ever thanks to the internet. Anyone in the world can adopt a counter-culture lifestyle by simply reading a few things on the internet now and saying "hey that sounds about right to me!" It may "appear" to have fizzled out but it's more that people are doing drugs behind closed doors and stuff -- whereas in the 70's it was all out in the open.
I think alot of us forget that the counter-culture views we have were actually very much ingrained by leaders of the movement like leary and mckenna. So we convince ourselves we are thinking for ourselves, but really we're just following a philosophy that's been programmed into alot of people over time -- much like society itself.
A problem I see with the counter-culture is it's easy to put yourself "above" society or alienate yourself from it because this worldview is so at odds with traditional culture, in many aspects. I think alot of people that get into this counter-culture eventually get kind of disillusioned with it over time, probably from taking it a bit too far.
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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Re: Is the counter-culture brainwashed? [Re: resonant111]
#22127332 - 08/22/15 02:38 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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I tend to think of human thought as one system. All of global culture consists of this system. So, all of the counter-cultural memes in the world are not part of a different system, but this same system, with the same rules.
The Weather Underground and the Republican Party are playing the same game. Not two different games. One cannot escape the organic unity of collective human thought. So, while some of these ideas are quite sound and valid, they are not going to materially affect the course of the world. One should, of course, think whatever one wishes. However, it helps to understand that they're not one's own ideas, just as the language is not made up of one's own words. I'm not sure Leary and McKenna were full of shit, at all, but they were promulgating ideas that were just different permutations of old ideas, very much within the system of human thought.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
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Re: Is the counter-culture brainwashed? [Re: resonant111]
#22127439 - 08/22/15 03:04 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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The politically correct, anti-conspiracy theorist moderators do a decent job of squelching any real counter culture ideas. Those not believing in the official story of 9/11 for example are promptly set straight.
"Of course that jet fuel burning well below the melting point of steel caused those buildings to drop at free fall speed, what are you stupid"?
Rinse, and repeat.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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Cowb0yNeal00



Registered: 06/05/13
Posts: 11,059
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Re: Is the counter-culture brainwashed? [Re: LunarEclipse]
#22130485 - 08/23/15 11:22 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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its all about the lifestyle people wish to choose. You have to be down with the cause.
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Re: Is the counter-culture brainwashed? [Re: Cowb0yNeal00]
#22131723 - 08/23/15 04:35 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
myles33 said: its all about the lifestyle people wish to choose. You have to be down with the cause.
I don't have to be "down" with any "cause". Why would you say that, are you trying to brainwash me? Clever.
I'm not joining any causes, or groups, or clubs, or political parties, or the military, or anything that involves people meeting to discuss anything, or contributing to any charity, or supporting any group, cause, religion, event, musical groups given special consideration, but that's just cause..
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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Cowb0yNeal00



Registered: 06/05/13
Posts: 11,059
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Re: Is the counter-culture brainwashed? [Re: LunarEclipse] 2
#22131762 - 08/23/15 04:45 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
LunarEclipse said:
Quote:
myles33 said: its all about the lifestyle people wish to choose. You have to be down with the cause.
I don't have to be "down" with any "cause". Why would you say that, are you trying to brainwash me? Clever.
I'm not joining any causes, or groups, or clubs, or political parties, or the military, or anything that involves people meeting to discuss anything, or contributing to any charity, or supporting any group, cause, religion, event, musical groups given special consideration, but that's just cause..
your part of the shroomery
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ONE OZ SLUG
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Registered: 05/22/13
Posts: 17,839
Loc: TX
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Re: Is the counter-culture brainwashed? [Re: Cowb0yNeal00]
#22131788 - 08/23/15 04:49 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Shroomery isn't a cause or a belief.
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Cowb0yNeal00



Registered: 06/05/13
Posts: 11,059
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Re: Is the counter-culture brainwashed? [Re: ONE OZ SLUG]
#22131874 - 08/23/15 05:07 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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all I'm saying is don't be a fool
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Cognitive_Shift
CS actual




Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 29,591
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Re: Is the counter-culture brainwashed? [Re: resonant111] 1
#22133077 - 08/23/15 10:06 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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I question authority but i'm not sure if I make my own reality. I don't know of any truth to preach about. Is the counter-culture brainwashed? Yeah to some degree depending on how open and accepting that person is but you can say that about any culture.
-------------------- L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
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jesserayhatchtrue
master



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many are controlled by there self created fears not me soon we love your life let go of fear and you shall be free
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saenchai
Stranger
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It's interesting to think about. True autonomy doesn't come from having dogmatic beliefs regardless of their degree of accuracy. Even well intentioned devotion to a particularly set of beliefs like Buddhism or counter culture seems to yield more seekers than autonomous souls. Isn't that the original point of the ideas that were passed down? How many Buddhists die having become the Buddha?
At this point in time it seems pretty hard to avoid growing into some kind of dogmatic belief system. Maybe it is a good starting point to be abandoned later on. If they are used as anything else but signposts they seem to become serious hindrances.
You have confused people of varying intentions in the new age community holding up the signposts as some great blessing from god, fetishizing enlightenment and completely abandoning the original point of things, confusing people who haven't made that discernment yet and often parting with some of their money in the process. It's a circus. But if I had to pick the most fertile dogma soil from which I could eventually achieve real autonomy you could do a lot worse than those particular set of beliefs. Know what I mean?
All the little nudges you get from life set you straight from whatever you need to be dispossessed from if you're willing to listen. Even "correct" dogmas may need to be shed because if you trust anything but yourself and your guides you risk getting bad data or mispercieving.
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jesserayhatchtrue
master



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Re: Is the counter-culture brainwashed? [Re: saenchai]
#22138765 - 08/25/15 04:22 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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want what you need
-------------------- TRUTH
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Jokeshopbeard
Humble Student

Registered: 11/30/11
Posts: 26,088
Loc: Deep in the system
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Quote:
ONE OZ SLUG said: I think a lot of it has to do with people being lost, or perhaps they feel outcasted, and adopting these beliefs makes them feel at home.
This resonated deeply with me. I often feel like an alien amongst my peers for looking deeply at, and questioning, the status quo. Most people talk about it of course, but I feel that most are brainwashed by media and other peoples influences towards social norms. Oscar Wilde has this to say on the subject, which I believe is true of all of us to some degree:
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
Which is where DQ's opinion comes in to play. I think this is a very succinct overview of this subject. There is very little that one can 'think' or have as a 'worldview' that has not been previously espoused:
Quote:
DividedQuantum said: I tend to think of human thought as one system. All of global culture consists of this system. So, all of the counter-cultural memes in the world are not part of a different system, but this same system, with the same rules.
The Weather Underground and the Republican Party are playing the same game. Not two different games. One cannot escape the organic unity of collective human thought. So, while some of these ideas are quite sound and valid, they are not going to materially affect the course of the world. One should, of course, think whatever one wishes. However, it helps to understand that they're not one's own ideas, just as the language is not made up of one's own words. I'm not sure Leary and McKenna were full of shit, at all, but they were promulgating ideas that were just different permutations of old ideas, very much within the system of human thought.
IMO, as long as you are making an effort to question all that you can, then you're making the best go of it. Labels like 'counter-culture' are just another way of chucking thinkers with a certain propensity to look outside the box, into a box, and whist the concepts resonate with me, I firmly reject the labels.
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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Re: Is the counter-culture brainwashed? [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
#22139920 - 08/25/15 09:30 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Thanks for highlighting, Jsb. Nice post there. Yes, I merely wanted to point out that in reality the separation we think exists between different cultural elements is really an illusion. Good ideas are good ideas, but the system of human thought is one organic whole; no set of memes is truly independent from any other. If we wish to make any progress as a society, we have to recognize this and work from the bottom up. Although, I admit I don't hold out much hope for that.
All a person can ever do is make an earnest effort to stay as close to the truth as possible. That's the best thing.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Coincidentiaoppositorum
deep psychedelic


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Some claim the "hippie" and psychedelic counter culture were inventions of the CIA...
Laurel Canyon had a military base (lookout mountain) not far from it, this was a fully equipped film studio...it was claimed to be there for editing A-bomb films...
Jim Morrison's dad had direct involvement with the incident that sparked the Viet nam war...george Morrison was commander of the U.S. naval forces in the Gulf of Tonkin during the Gulf of Tonkin Incident of August 1964, which sparked an escalation of American involvement in the Vietnam War.-Wikipedia
Most of these psychedelic rock icons have high level military or intelligence members in their family...
And knowing about things like that in operation "midnight climax" Sidney gotlieb (high ranking CIA officer) would disguise himself as a beatnik and go around San Francisco's hip neighborhoods giving unsuspecting civilians LSD...they love pretending to be hippies...
Ken kesey got his first LSD dose from the government...as did many of the hippie icons...
Intentionally or not, the CIA played a big role in the hippie movements creation and image...
I don't fully buy the conspiracy theorists view on all this, by I do feel the government has many unknown relations to the psychedelic counter-culture...
-E. Borodin
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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Interesting.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Cognitive_Shift
CS actual




Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 29,591
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Quote:
Coincidentiaoppositorum said: Some claim the "hippie" and psychedelic counter culture were inventions of the CIA...
Yeah because the CIA loves anti-establishment anti-war social revolution types
-------------------- L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
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Coincidentiaoppositorum
deep psychedelic


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Allen Ginsberg, Ken kesey, Robert Hunter, and many more were first given LSD via MKULTRA programs... At Menlo park, where kesey was first dosed, they had a stash of LSD, alpha-methyltryptamine, and mescaline get stolen, coincidently shortly after, these compounds became available on "furthur" (keseys traveling acid test bus) so it's likely kesey or one of his friends robbed Menlo park...
Through MKULTRA the government turned hundreds of thousands of people on to LSD... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Midnight_Climax
There's a good deal of people out there who claim that the CIA used psychedelics to neutralize the radical political scene of the 1960s...
There's another group who claim all the hippie icons were cia operatives, and that laurel canyon was being controlled by a government movie studio called "lookout mountain"... www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2GjY8DN-7I
Because Sidney gotlieb (high ranking CIA agent) was known to dress up like a beatnik and go around San Francisco's hip areas giving LSD to strangers (he called LSD "stormy" in his notes because of the varied and wild reactions it induced from person to person), I'm not at all doubting that the CIA had agents in the hippie movement, or that some of the famous musicians and movie stars may have been CIA agents or working for CIA agents, and may have even created the psychedelic movement itself...but I'm also not willing to fully buy into the conspiracy theorists...These are interesting ideas, but I would take them with a grain of salt.
There's some pretty bizzare theories out there, "Jim Morrison is rush Limbaugh" is one of my favorites in the absurd category... www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZYTAWRyyO8 Lmfao! This guy has this wanna-be "gangsta" mannerism to his speech which makes it that much more funny...
We will never know how deep MKULTRA went because all the records were destroyed (except for a box of mislabeled files that we have today) maybe the CIA did intentionally create the psychedelic movement and Jim Morrison and Tim Leary, etc.. were CIA operatives...Or maybe they were just giving this stuff out and as a result they blew some really creative minds who made it big in the counter-culture...
History is never accurate, so I love to explore all possibilities, I also believe that the powers in control historically have never been honest about the extent to which they manipulate populations they control, but I'm sure it's far deeper than we expect, when the Nazis fell the United states began to release information regarding their propaganda machine, the funny thing is the United states uses these same methods of manipulation...
MKULTRA is NOT theory, it's confirmed fact, and has always been a fascination of mine...(but you must have a thick filter, there's a lot of nonsense out there)
-E. Borodin
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Coincidentiaoppositorum
deep psychedelic


Registered: 10/27/14
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Quote:
Cognitive_Shift said:
Quote:
Coincidentiaoppositorum said: Some claim the "hippie" and psychedelic counter culture were inventions of the CIA...
Yeah because the CIA loves anti-establishment anti-war social revolution types
I said SOME claim this, not I claim this, and their logic behind it was that they took groups who were politically active, and turned them onto psychedelics so their interests would shift from radical overthrow of the government to spirituality...
As quoted here: They neutralized my generation by turning social activists into "flower children" advocating "peace and love." The mantra of the age was "Tune in, Turn on and Drop Out". (Qouted from http://arcticcompass.blogspot.com/2008/04/who-remembers-1960s-how.html )
-E. Borodin
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jesserayhatchtrue
master



Registered: 08/25/15
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probaly cause tripin makes you superhuman
-------------------- TRUTH
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saenchai
Stranger
Registered: 10/05/14
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Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
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Quote:
Coincidentiaoppositorum said:
Quote:
Cognitive_Shift said:
Quote:
Coincidentiaoppositorum said: Some claim the "hippie" and psychedelic counter culture were inventions of the CIA...
Yeah because the CIA loves anti-establishment anti-war social revolution types
I said SOME claim this, not I claim this, and their logic behind it was that they took groups who were politically active, and turned them onto psychedelics so their interests would shift from radical overthrow of the government to spirituality...
As quoted here: They neutralized my generation by turning social activists into "flower children" advocating "peace and love." The mantra of the age was "Tune in, Turn on and Drop Out". (Qouted from http://arcticcompass.blogspot.com/2008/04/who-remembers-1960s-how.html )
-E. Borodin
That makes sense. I heard the CIA was behind the actual manufacturing and distribution of the lsd too as some kind of experiment.
Edited by saenchai (08/26/15 08:53 AM)
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Cognitive_Shift
CS actual




Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 29,591
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Re: Is the counter-culture brainwashed? [Re: saenchai] 1
#22146054 - 08/26/15 11:59 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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The last thing any establishment wants is to turn on, tune in and drop out Yes they gave people LSD to study it's effects and find out if it was useful to them. Maybe it could be in a little capsule you bite down on if your shot down so the enemy can't interrogate you or something like that. They wanted to see if it had any real world applications. Yes plenty of FBI agents go undercover in subversive political and social movements to find out what's going on and how threatening the group is. Flower children are NOT what the CIA wanted at all. They want hard working yes men dedicated to the status quo, not people who live in communes off the land. The social and politcal movements of the 1960's were the biggest pain in the ass to nixon. You can listen to his tapes and hear him complaining about it.
-------------------- L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
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RoyalSlurm
Slurm King



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Re: Is the counter-culture brainwashed? [Re: saenchai]
#22146331 - 08/26/15 12:47 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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But also, the gov banned LSD & many other recreational substances to give them a reason to jail otherwise innocent, law-abiding counter-culture activists. At that point it would make sense that they would produce and distribute LSD for political movements so they could create methods to shut down the leaders of the movements.
On another note, I think our modern underground psychedelic community is being brainwashed by the mainstream hip-hop community (which is perpetuated by the media, which is controlled by the government). I cant tell you how many events Ive been to this summer where all the music is "Pop that pussy ho, pop that pop that pussy ho, pop that pussy ho, pop that pop that pussy ho." or some other terrible variation. On top of that, nearly everybody I know is now deep into cocaine and prescription pills -- it just randomly flooded the scene in 2013 and seems like its here to stay. A few years ago it all used to be futuristic think tank IDM and psychedelics.. now its all electronic repetitive gangster rap and mind-clouding substances. I used to complain about the rampant ketamine usage before this all came about.. now to be honest I miss it because that vibe was way better than coke, alcohol, and benzos.
Edited by RoyalSlurm (08/26/15 12:57 PM)
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Jokeshopbeard
Humble Student

Registered: 11/30/11
Posts: 26,088
Loc: Deep in the system
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Re: Is the counter-culture brainwashed? [Re: RoyalSlurm]
#22147942 - 08/26/15 05:58 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
RoyalSlurm said: On another note, I think our modern underground psychedelic community is being brainwashed by the mainstream hip-hop community (which is perpetuated by the media, which is controlled by the government). I cant tell you how many events Ive been to this summer where all the music is "Pop that pussy ho, pop that pop that pussy ho, pop that pussy ho, pop that pop that pussy ho." or some other terrible variation. On top of that, nearly everybody I know is now deep into cocaine and prescription pills -- it just randomly flooded the scene in 2013 and seems like its here to stay. A few years ago it all used to be futuristic think tank IDM and psychedelics.. now its all electronic repetitive gangster rap and mind-clouding substances. I used to complain about the rampant ketamine usage before this all came about.. now to be honest I miss it because that vibe was way better than coke, alcohol, and benzos.
That's a sad truth man.
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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Kickle
Wanderer



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Re: Is the counter-culture brainwashed? [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
#22148393 - 08/26/15 07:19 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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I take issue with the word brainwashed. I think it's just humanity at work
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Coincidentiaoppositorum
deep psychedelic


Registered: 10/27/14
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Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
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Re: Is the counter-culture brainwashed? [Re: saenchai]
#22150059 - 08/27/15 06:59 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
saenchai said:
Quote:
Coincidentiaoppositorum said:
Quote:
Cognitive_Shift said:
Quote:
Coincidentiaoppositorum said: Some claim the "hippie" and psychedelic counter culture were inventions of the CIA...
Yeah because the CIA loves anti-establishment anti-war social revolution types
I said SOME claim this, not I claim this, and their logic behind it was that they took groups who were politically active, and turned them onto psychedelics so their interests would shift from radical overthrow of the government to spirituality...
As quoted here: They neutralized my generation by turning social activists into "flower children" advocating "peace and love." The mantra of the age was "Tune in, Turn on and Drop Out". (Qouted from http://arcticcompass.blogspot.com/2008/04/who-remembers-1960s-how.html )
-E. Borodin
That makes sense. I heard the CIA was behind the actual manufacturing and distribution of the lsd too as some kind of experiment.
The first LSD was manufactured by Albert Hoffman and sabdoz chemical, sandoz distributed the LSD until 1966.
The project you are referring to was MKULTRA, operation artichoke, operation midnight climax, etc..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra
-E. Borodin
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Coincidentiaoppositorum
deep psychedelic


Registered: 10/27/14
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Whether they did it intentionally or not the government created the hippie movement...
The reason the politicos say the CIA used psychedelics to destroy the political movement was because they got all these SDS and weatherman type kids to abandoned politics to become belly-gazing drug fried vegetables, the political movement of 66 was a drug movement by 68...
Again, because of MKULTRA I have no doubt the CIA had agents fueling the counter culture...have you read the laurel canyon stuff? I don't fully buy it, but they do point out some really strange things... www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2GjY8DN-7I
Jim Morrison is a bizzare character, one of my favorites, he came out if nowhere, his career lasted 4 short years, in which time he went from a skinny pretty boy, to a bearded poet, to a biker type, then died, only 2 people saw his body...
Jim's dad was directly involved with the incident that sparked the Viet nam war:
George Stephen Morrison (January 7, 1919 – November 17, 2008) was a United States Navy rear admiral (upper half) and naval aviator. Morrison was commander of the U.S. naval forces in the Gulf of Tonkin during the Gulf of Tonkin Incident of August 1964, which sparked an escalation of American involvement in the Vietnam War. -Wikipedia
It's funny how the man who was key in starting the war had a son who was key in leading the movement against it...during operation "midnight climax" Sidney gotlieb (high ranking CIA Agent) would disguise himself as a hippie or beatnik and go through San Francisco's hip neighborhoods giving unsuspecting people LSD...so it's been proven that CIA opperatives did pretend to be hippies...
I really did not want to get into this here because there's so much information to go over, so sorry this is so long...
Why would they (the CIA) want people on drugs?
Because the CIA uses the drug market to fund foreign armies fighting our enemies. Iran contra was an example where they used weapons that were sold to Iran to fund contras in Nicaragua, all illegal, they preform this same practice with drugs, they sell drugs to fund foreign armies fighting our enemies without public knowledge, congressional approval, or need to take responsibility when these rebels turn on us.
This is why they would go to such lengths to promote the drug culture, it funds secret wars and neutralizes homegrown radicals... FRANCE
According to Alfred W. McCoy in The Politics of Heroin in Southeast Asia, CIA arms, money, and disinformation enabled Corsican criminal syndicates in Marseille to wrestle control of labor unions from the Communist Party. The Corsicans gained political influence and control over the docks — ideal conditions for cementing a long-term partnership with mafia drug distributors, which turned Marseille into the postwar heroin capital of the Western world. Marseille’s first heroin laboratones were opened in 1951, only months after the Corsicans took over the waterfront.
EARLY 1950s, SOUTHEAST ASIA
The Nationalist Chinese army, organized by the CIA to wage war against Communist China, became the opium barons of The Golden Triangle (parts of Burma, Thailand and Laos), the world’s largest source of opium and heroin. Air America, the ClA’s principal airline proprietary, flew the drugs all over Southeast Asia. (See Christopher Robbins, Air America, Avon Books, 1985, chapter 9)
1950s to early 1970s, INDOCHINA During U.S. military involvement in Laos and other parts of Indochina, Air America flew opium and heroin throughout the area. Many Gl’s in Vietnam became addicts. A laboratory built at CIA headquarters in northern Laos was used to refine heroin. After a decade of American military intervention, Southeast Asia had become the source of 70 percent of the world’s illicit opium and the major supplier of raw materials for America’s booming heroin market.
1973-80, AUSTRALIA
The Nugan Hand Bank of Sydney was a CIA bank in all but name. Among its officers were a network of US generals, admirals and CIA men, including fommer CIA Director William Colby, who was also one of its lawyers. With branches in Saudi Arabia, Europe, Southeast Asia, South America and the U.S., Nugan Hand Bank financed drug trafficking, money laundering and international arms dealings. In 1980, amidst several mysterious deaths, the bank collapsed, $50 million in debt. (See Jonathan Kwitny, The Crimes of Patriots: A True Tale of Dope, Dirty Money and the CIA, W.W. Norton & Co., 1 987.)
1970s and 1980s, PANAMA
For more than a decade, Panamanian strongman Manuel Noriega was a highly paid CIA asset and collaborator, despite knowledge by U.S. drug authorities as early as 1971 that the general was heavily involved in drug trafficking and money laundering. Noriega facilitated ”guns-for-drugs” flights for the contras, providing protection and pilots, as well as safe havens for drug cartel otficials, and discreet banking facilities. U.S. officials, including then-ClA Director William Webster and several DEA officers, sent Noriega letters of praise for efforts to thwart drug trafficking (albeit only against competitors of his Medellin Cartel patrons). The U.S. government only turned against Noriega, invading Panama in December 1989 and kidnapping the general once they discovered he was providing intelligence and services to the Cubans and Sandinistas. Ironically drug trafficking through Panama increased after the US invasion. (John Dinges, Our Man in Panama, Random House, 1991; National Security Archive Documentation Packet The Contras, Cocaine, and Covert Operations.)
1980s, CENTRAL AMERICA
The San Jose Mercury News series documents just one thread of the interwoven operations linking the CIA, the contras and the cocaine cartels. Obsessed with overthrowing the leftist Sandinista government in Nicaragua, Reagan administration officials tolerated drug trafficking as long as the traffickers gave support to the contras. In 1989, the Senate Subcommittee on Terrorism, Narcotics, and International Operations (the Kerry committee) concluded a three-year investigation by stating:
“There was substantial evidence of drug smuggling through the war zones on the part of individual Contras, Contra suppliers, Contra pilots mercenaries who worked with the Contras, and Contra supporters throughout the region…. U.S. officials involved in Central America failed to address the drug issue for fear of jeopardizing the war efforts against Nicaragua…. In each case, one or another agency of the U.S. govemment had intormation regarding the involvement either while it was occurring, or immediately thereafter…. Senior U S policy makers were nit immune to the idea that drug money was a perfect solution to the Contras’ funding problems.” (Drugs, Law Enforcement and Foreign Policy, a Report of the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations, Subcommittee on Terrorism, Narcotics and Intemational Operations, 1989)
In Costa Rica, which served as the “Southern Front” for the contras (Honduras being the Northern Front), there were several different ClA-contra networks involved in drug trafficking. In addition to those servicing the Meneses-Blandon operation detailed by the Mercury News, and Noriega’s operation, there was CIA operative John Hull, whose farms along Costa Rica’s border with Nicaragua were the main staging area for the contras. Hull and other ClA-connected contra supporters and pilots teamed up with George Morales, a major Miami-based Colombian drug trafficker who later admitted to giving $3 million in cash and several planes to contra leaders. In 1989, after the Costa Rica government indicted Hull for drug trafficking, a DEA-hired plane clandestinely and illegally flew the CIA operative to Miami, via Haiti. The US repeatedly thwarted Costa Rican efforts to extradite Hull back to Costa Rica to stand trial. Another Costa Rican-based drug ring involved a group of Cuban Amencans whom the CIA had hired as military trainers for the contras. Many had long been involved with the CIA and drug trafficking They used contra planes and a Costa Rican-based shnmp company, which laundered money for the CIA, to move cocaine to the U.S. Costa Rica was not the only route. Guatemala, whose military intelligence service — closely associated with the CIA — harbored many drug traffickers, according to the DEA, was another way station along the cocaine highway.
Additionally, the Medellin Cartel’s Miami accountant, Ramon Milian Rodriguez, testified that he funneled nearly $10 million to Nicaraguan contras through long-time CIA operative Felix Rodriguez, who was based at Ilopango Air Force Base in El Salvador. The contras provided both protection and infrastructure (planes, pilots, airstrips, warehouses, front companies and banks) to these ClA-linked drug networks. At least four transport companies under investigation for drug trafficking received US govemment contracts to carry non-lethal supplies to the contras. Southern Air Transport, “formerly” ClA-owned, and later under Pentagon contract, was involved in the drug running as well. Cocaine-laden planes flew to Florida, Texas, Louisiana and other locations, including several militarv bases Designated as ‘Contra Craft,” these shipments were not to be inspected. When some authority wasn’t clued in and made an arrest, powerful strings were pulled on behalf of dropping the case, acquittal, reduced sentence, or deportation.
1980s to early 1990s, AFGHANISTAN
ClA-supported Moujahedeen rebels engaged heavily in drug trafficking while fighting against the Soviet-supported govemment and its plans to reform the very backward Afghan society. The Agency’s principal client was Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, one of the leading druglords and leading heroin refiner. CIA supplied trucks and mules, which had carried arms into Afghanistan, were used to transport opium to laboratories along the Afghan Pakistan border. The output provided up to one half of the heroin used annually in the United States and three-quarters of that used in Western Europe. US officials admitted in 1990 that they had failed to investigate or take action against the drug operabon because of a desire not to offend their Pakistani and Afghan allies. In 1993, an official of the DEA called Afghanistan the new Colombia of the drug world.
MlD-1980s to early 199Os, HAITI
While working to keep key Haitian military and political leaders in power, the CIA turned a blind eye to their clients’ drug trafficking. In 1986, the Agency added some more names to its payroll by creating a new Haitian organization, the National Intelligence Service (SIN). SIN was purportedly created to fight the cocaine trade, though SIN officers themselves engaged in the trafficking, a trade aided and abetted by some of the Haitian military and political leaders.
http://www.nytimes.com/1993/12/03/opinion/03iht-edlarry.html
This is a net York Times article titled "the CIA drug connection is as old as the agency"
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_involvement_in_Contra_cocaine_trafficking
American drug war: the last white hope www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8fBbH3K18s
http://www.rt.com/usa/194992-cia-crack-scandal-webb/ An article backing the initial report of CIA running cocaine for the contras, the initial reporter killed himself, but now people involved are comming forward.
http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB2/index.html#1 https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/10/02/cont-o02.html In the links there's a document proving the CIA knew of cocaine smuggling activities tied to the contras
http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/crime/item/12247-cia-manages-drug-trade-mexican-official-says
http://americanfreepress.net/?p=16169 This is an article on how the CIA is fueling the heroin epidemic.
In April 1998, Celerino Castillo, a former top-level Drug Enforcement Agency operative, provided sensitive, first-hand testimony to the US Senate House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence. He told the Senators of his direct personal knowledge of massive CIA complicity in the drug trade. http://www.deepblacklies.co.uk/cia_drug_trafficking.htm Here is the article from which the above clip was taken...
This is just scratching the surface, there's report after report, documents, ex-CIA and DEA testimony, programs like MKULTRA which became public, look into"operation midnight climax" this is where a high level CIA agent (Sidney gotlieb) would dress as a beatnik and go to coffee houses in the bay area feeding unsuspecting citizens LSD, which he named "stormy" due to the varied and wild reactions. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Midnight_Climax
When I wrote this book, I did a lot of research on an area I didn't know that much about, which is, let's say from 1500 to the present, drugs of addiction. And what I discovered is drug smuggling is like assassination. If the government isn't involved, it never seems to really happen. And governments have been using drugs for centuries as forms of secret revenue. This whole sugar thing that I laid out to you, those were decisions made by the crown heads of Europe in collusion with the Pope. It wasn't common people who set those policies in place.
During the 1960's, when the black ghettos began to come apart, suddenly number three China white heroin was cheaper and more available than it had ever been in any time in this history of the heroin problem in the United States. Why? Because the CIA saw, you know, all these black guys are getting up, a bunch of uppity niggers as the government calls them, you just smother it in heroin. Get everybody either hooked or making money...
And they don't care really about the effects of drugs, and one group, one faction will work against another. For example, I'm a great afficianado of hashish, and hashish became very hard to get in the United States in the late 70's. But as soon as the Russians invaded Afghanistan, suddenly there was massive amounts of excellent Afghani hashish, at prices that nobody had seen for fifteen years. Well, the reason was, the CIA knows that hashish is not really a problem. But what they wanted is, they wanted an income for the mujahadin. And they had to pay for all these weapons. So they just started bringing it in wholesale. And it wasn't even a smuggling operation. I mean, I received reports from people who said, you know, 'Smuggling? They're not smuggling. They're unloading it on pier 39, union local 1030 is taking off, you know, five hundred pound blocks of hashish by the tens of thousands.' And the day the Afghan war ended? They staged an enormous series of interlocking busts on their own infrastructure, and they closed it down, and they pulled it to pieces.
When Khomeni kicked out the Shah, the Iranian heroin business then fell under the control of the mulahs, and at that point, suddenly cocaine emerges as a major problem in the United States, because we just switched our supply lines. We could no longer depend on Iranian heroin, because we couldn't depend on these screwy Islamic fundamentalists, so we just turned toward all of these company assets in Honduras and Ecuador and Columbia. Very, very cynical.
You know, it's only been a hundred and twenty years since the so called opium wars. Very few people know what the opium wars, what was the issue in the opium wars. Well, it turns out the British government wanted to deal opium in China, and the Chinese Emperor told them to get lost. And they flipped. And they sent naval units, and they laid siege to several Chinese cities, and they forced the Chinese imperial court to agree that they could deal as much opium as they wanted on the wharves of Shanghai...
The Japanese, when they invaded Manchuria in the Second World War, they immediately began producing heroin and opium in vast amounts, not then as an economic strategy, but as a strategy to break the will of the Chinese population by encouraging addiction, and there was vast amounts of opium addiction. If any of you saw 'The Last Emperor,' you recall that his mistress was severely addicted to opium, and it depicted it in a number of scenes.
So governments have very cynically manipulated drugs, so that the drugs which make it possible for capitalism to function are cheap and freely available, and the drugs which erode dominator values, or cause people to question their situation, are savagely supressed.
...so you see there may be very complex reasons why the CIA wants to promote drug use and drug culture....
-E. Borodin
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Jokeshopbeard
Humble Student

Registered: 11/30/11
Posts: 26,088
Loc: Deep in the system
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Quote:
Coincidentiaoppositorum said: I really did not want to get into this here because there's so much information to go over, so sorry this is so long...
I'm glad you did man, that was an absolutely fascinating read.
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,664
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Re: Is the counter-culture brainwashed? [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
#22150185 - 08/27/15 07:48 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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sometimes I counteract negative thoughts or emotions in meditation with their counteropposite!
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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Cognitive_Shift
CS actual




Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 29,591
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Abandon politics? You call million person marches on DC abandoning politics? The 60's were some of the most politically charged moments in american history. Yeah I agree the US does some pretty scummy things, but the whole CIA created hippies conspiracy theory makes absolutely no sense when you analyze it.
-------------------- L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
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Coincidentiaoppositorum
deep psychedelic


Registered: 10/27/14
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Quote:
Cognitive_Shift said: Abandon politics? You call million person marches on DC abandoning politics? The 60's were some of the most politically charged moments in american history. Yeah I agree the US does some pretty scummy things, but the whole CIA created hippies conspiracy theory makes absolutely no sense when you analyze it.
To give the CIA total credit for the hippie movement would be a mistake. It was a number of co-occurrences that came to a concrescence at that time point...but the CIA did play a huge role in the spread of LSD through MKULTRA and similar programs.
I don't fully buy the lurel canyon conspiracy stuff, but it is interesting.
Though I'm certain the main drug distributors globally are the CIA...
-E. Borodin
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Coincidentiaoppositorum
deep psychedelic


Registered: 10/27/14
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Re: Is the counter-culture brainwashed? [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
#22154935 - 08/28/15 05:06 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Jokeshopbeard said:
Quote:
Coincidentiaoppositorum said: I really did not want to get into this here because there's so much information to go over, so sorry this is so long...
I'm glad you did man, that was an absolutely fascinating read.
Thanks, I love to discuss these topics, but without the background information my claims hold very little weight, unfortunately there's a TON of background information here, I was barely scratching the surface...all I can say is that through my extensive research I've reached some unusual conclusions...
-E. Borodin
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Jokeshopbeard
Humble Student

Registered: 11/30/11
Posts: 26,088
Loc: Deep in the system
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Quote:
Coincidentiaoppositorum said: all I can say is that through my extensive research I've reached some unusual conclusions...
Do you mean the conclusions outlined above? Or is there more? I would love to hear them if you have not expressed them.
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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Coincidentiaoppositorum
deep psychedelic


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Re: Is the counter-culture brainwashed? [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
#22155214 - 08/28/15 07:34 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Jokeshopbeard said:
Quote:
Coincidentiaoppositorum said: all I can say is that through my extensive research I've reached some unusual conclusions...
Do you mean the conclusions outlined above? Or is there more? I would love to hear them if you have not expressed them.
It's very rare that I express my actual personal opinions or views, but I can give you as much background as you want on the opinions expressed above.
During "operation midnight climax" the CIA had a team of prostitutes, they would lure Johns into a set hotel, equipped with two way mirrors, the prostitutes would slip the johns high dose LSD, and CIA agents would observe through These two way mirrors...(there's a concept known as "breaking the third wall" which is basically where you bring a fictional character to life in the real world. as spys, the CIA were experts in this field) eventually Sidney gotlieb (high ranking CIA agent/MKULTRA frontmant ) began to actually take to the streets of San Francisco himself, disguised as a hippy or a beatnik, where he would take personal pleasure in dosing random citizens with LSD, generally without their knowledge, he named LSD "stormy" in his notes, due to the wild and varied reactions the compound would produce...so who knows how many of your hippie icons were MKULTRA agents (the fact the lurel canyon had a secret government film studio (lookout mountain) right on top of it, raises questions as well...( even during the 50s people such as John Wayne had secret government clearance to laurel canyon and this studio)
Governments manipulate media, this is known, Joseph Goebbels, the head Nazi propaganda officer, had a hand in the production of every German movie and radio show being shown to the public, I'm sure the CIA performs similar media manipulations, actually I know they do...but I would have to get into a whole other yarn to detail this...
Then you have figures like Jim Morrison (the doors are my favorite band, and Jim Morrison's other work is just as amazing) this guy's dad basically started Viet nam (George Stephen Morrison (January 7, 1919 – November 17, 2008) was a United States Navy rear admiral (upper half) and naval aviator. Morrison was commander of the U.S. naval forces in the Gulf of Tonkin during the Gulf of Tonkin Incident of August 1964, which sparked an escalation of American involvement in the Vietnam War.-wikipedia) and then Jim shows up on the music scene, no prior musical past, no prior interest in music, and becomes this major fugue in the counter-culture, his career was from 1967-1971, during which time his image changed drastically, he went from a hip clean shaven pretty boy to a fat bearded poet type to being mysteriously dead (only two people saw Jim dead...supposedly). Jim's IQ was in the genius range, in 1964, in this picture with his dad, he is a very clean cut preppy type,  So he was great at changing his image, he had a genius IQ, and his dad was a high ranking military member, Morrison fits the perfect credentials for a CIA agent...I'm NOT saying he was, but he would have been great at it...he may have been "braking the third wall" with Jim Morrison, and at his death simply decided to move onto another character, or decided to retire and become anonymous...Or this could all be strange coincidence, it's really hard to say...
...one agent when questioned why they would do this (acts of MKULTRA) simply said "I could not let go of something so beautiful"...
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*Pont-Saint-Esprit, france, 1951, the entire town experiences simultaneous psychedelia, "saint Anthony's fire" meaning ergot poisoning, is blamed...yet when ergot infected rye bread is ingested it causes dangerous vassoconstriction as well as convulsive symptoms and gangrenous symptoms, yet at pont-saint-espirit, france in 1951, we don't see this, NOBODY in the entire town who was effected suffered the symptoms of ergotism...the CIA placed LSD or an LSD like compound on the town's food or water supply as part of MKULTRA...in the United states the chlorine and fluoride in our drinking water destroys the LSD, so you can't dose our water supply, I'm guessing this French town did NOT chemically treat their water, and just to observe what would happen, though on a small scale, if LSD were to get into the water or food supply, the CIA drove an entire French village mad with LSD or an LSD like compound...
(Though MKULTRA was in fact real,as was project midnight climax and Sidney gotliebs bizzare actions...I fully believe all the MKULTRA information...how ever all the MKULTRA files were destroyed before they could get to public eyes, so we will never really know how deep MKULTRA really went...Though a box that was mislabeled and stored was found to contain some of these files, the information we have about MKULTRA is only a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of what these people actually did...
Ok, I'm getting all over the place, too many subjects being jumbled together as quickly as possible...
Regardless of what I may personally think or believe, I would be happy to go into detail on any of the topics outlined above or in any of my previous posts, and as I remember things that I left out I can post them...I hope there was not too much review in the above post, I tried to throw some new information in there...
What conclusions do you draw from all this?
-E. Borodin
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RennHuhn
Stranger

Registered: 03/12/15
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Acid Dreams, read it. One of the best books on the MK Ultra and related projects and the counter culture. It shows a good and realistic interpretation of the relationship between CIA/other agencies and counter culture, with lots of proof.
Another important book is the Brotherhood of Eternal love, especially regarding Ronald Stark. To understand the counterculture as good as possible there is a lot of reading needed, but I think anyone thinking abput psychedelics and politics should be informed about the counter culture to understand its failures strenghts and in what way police, state, media and various three letter agencies will fight radical change.
Everyone dreaming of revolution should learn how others failed and what remained.
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FryersQuest
Navigator


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Re: Is the counter-culture brainwashed? [Re: resonant111]
#22157647 - 08/28/15 05:26 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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There doesn't even seem to really even be a uniform counter-culture movement right now. Us shroomy types are all different but we all see the important spiritual nature of psychedelics. Then you have a real counter-culture formed by hip-hop who really just seem to want to have anarchy and don't give a shit about anybody but themselves.
--------------------
     Species Found: Gymnopilus Luteofolius ~ Panaeolus Cinctulus ~ Psilocybe Baeocystis ~ Psilocybe Cyanescens ~ Psilocybe cyanofibrillosa ~ Psilocybe Semilanceata ~ Psilocybe Stuntzii
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Coincidentiaoppositorum
deep psychedelic


Registered: 10/27/14
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Re: Is the counter-culture brainwashed? [Re: RennHuhn]
#22161110 - 08/29/15 02:51 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
RennHuhn said: Acid Dreams, read it. One of the best books on the MK Ultra and related projects and the counter culture. It shows a good and realistic interpretation of the relationship between CIA/other agencies and counter culture, with lots of proof.
Another important book is the Brotherhood of Eternal love, especially regarding Ronald Stark. To understand the counterculture as good as possible there is a lot of reading needed, but I think anyone thinking abput psychedelics and politics should be informed about the counter culture to understand its failures strenghts and in what way police, state, media and various three letter agencies will fight radical change.
Everyone dreaming of revolution should learn how others failed and what remained.
Acid dreams was an excellent book, and I highly recommend it as well, it covers Sidney gotlieb, operation MK-Artichoke, operation midnight climax, MKULTRA, which includes universities, prisons, mental hospitals, and experiments preformed on random citizens or on an entire village in another country like pont-saint espirit France in 1953, it also outlines how the CIA would drop acid on one another with out consent, it was like a game to them, they drop acid in your food or drink, have a little fun with you as it kicks in, then they tell you that you have been dosed and send you home, the would even give high level political figures LSD, the fear being that the Russians would dose important political figures who would then act insane in public, so they would give them LSD so they would know it's effect...Frank Olsen was a biochemist for the CIA, they dosed him one night and he flipped out, the following week he was depressed and seemed to be questioning his work inventing chemical weapons for the government, Olsen had a lot of secrets, so he was thrown out of his hotel room, a later autopsy showed his skull had been crushed with a blunt objrct prior to the fall, he was thrown out of the window...Sidney gotlieb and other agents would even dress up like hippies or beatniks and go through the hip neighborhoods of the bay area giving LSD to willing and unwilling subjects...
... who knows how far some of these agents took these hippie disguises and drug distribution in hip neighborhoods under assumed hip identities, because of the CIA connections to laurel canyon and a top secret film studio called lookout mountain that was next to laurel canyon, who knows how many hippie icons were MKULTRA agents dressed as hippies, some agents obviously loving living as their LSD distributing hippie icon personas....one agent whose name I can't think of off the top of my head was quoted in acid dreams saying "I did not want to let go of something so beautiful" when referring to MKULTRA and LSD...These psychedelics obviously effected these CIA agents, who are required to be intelligent as part of their job, the same way they effect any other intelligent person who encounters them...
MKULTRA is my favorite CIA program to research, and it may still being going on to this day under a different name and may have expanded beyond drugs to magnetic fields that alter consciousness, to certain low or high sound-wave frequencies that can effect the mind, their mind manipulation (because it was never mind control, it was techniques of advanced mental manipulation) techniques must be advanced beyond what we can conceive, though I'm certain they still use psychedelics frequently in their trade, and still have mind manipulation programs involving psychedelic compounds running to this day...they are also global cocaine and heroin dealers, but that's another issue discussed on my previous posts...
-E. Borodin
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Forever Stoned
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Re: Is the counter-culture brainwashed? [Re: resonant111]
#22164544 - 08/30/15 12:10 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
resonant111 said: The average shroomerite typically accepts one or more of the following worldviews: (Yes I'm going to generalize)
-psychedelics have the potential to unlock some sort of "truth" or ultimate reality. -material culture is ignorant and blind to truth -the government keeps psychedelics illegal to profit and keep us from accessing truth -question authority, create your own reality -fascination in some sort of spiritual system or philosophy with "enlightenment" as the end goal
so i'd like to ask us...are we all full of bullshit? are we merely repeating the same mental-programs that leary, mckenna and the like ingrained into the counter-culture decades ago? are we really finding truth, or pretending to have conveniently found it? do we really think for ourselves or are we a cliche? did we just choose this psychedelic tribe because we felt out of place in traditional society?
I think these are all valid questions. Let's discuss.
It's a little of both.
I do think that psychedelics provide a genuine look behind the curtain, so to speak. I also think that to some extent, the government knows what's up, and wants to keep people from thinking outside the box and questioning authority.
However, at the same time, there are certainly plenty of people who subscribe to the counterculture that are full of it. Lots of people just repeat things that they have heard from Leary, etc. Lots of people go to festivals just because their friends are going. Lots of people just want to fit in. It's just like any other subset of people.
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usulpsychonaut


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Re: Is the counter-culture brainwashed? [Re: resonant111]
#22167649 - 08/31/15 04:15 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yeah the counter culture is full of shit. People are idiots, resistance is idiocy resisting idiocy. There is nothing new about the 1960's other than electricity. Changing ideas and new values have always repeated throughout history. State enforced progressiveness is responsible for much destruction, loss, pain, emptiness and suicide. The only counter culture is counter counter culture. Everything and nothing makes sense. Change is simultaneous evolution and apocalypse. Do gooders know not the harm they do yet it could never have been another way.
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Coincidentiaoppositorum
deep psychedelic


Registered: 10/27/14
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Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
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Quote:
Forever Stoned said:
Quote:
resonant111 said: The average shroomerite typically accepts one or more of the following worldviews: (Yes I'm going to generalize)
-psychedelics have the potential to unlock some sort of "truth" or ultimate reality. -material culture is ignorant and blind to truth -the government keeps psychedelics illegal to profit and keep us from accessing truth -question authority, create your own reality -fascination in some sort of spiritual system or philosophy with "enlightenment" as the end goal
so i'd like to ask us...are we all full of bullshit? are we merely repeating the same mental-programs that leary, mckenna and the like ingrained into the counter-culture decades ago? are we really finding truth, or pretending to have conveniently found it? do we really think for ourselves or are we a cliche? did we just choose this psychedelic tribe because we felt out of place in traditional society?
I think these are all valid questions. Let's discuss.
It's a little of both.
I do think that psychedelics provide a genuine look behind the curtain, so to speak. I also think that to some extent, the government knows what's up, and wants to keep people from thinking outside the box and questioning authority.
However, at the same time, there are certainly plenty of people who subscribe to the counterculture that are full of it. Lots of people just repeat things that they have heard from Leary, etc. Lots of people go to festivals just because their friends are going. Lots of people just want to fit in. It's just like any other subset of people.
I think any time you conform to any set cultural standards it's a cop out for personal thought on many issues, there are people in the counterculture whose ideas I may enjoy, but to take those ideas on as your own is missing the point.
I've reached similar conclusions as some of the psychedelic icons, but it was not through their pontification, it was through my personal experience with the compounds, and if others have reached similar conclusions by using similar compounds I feel there's nothing wrong with listening to their take on it, its actually benneficial to hear others interpretations of the psychedelic experience, it helps map the terrain, they mention some sites to see on the way that you may have missed last time, and sure enough you will generally find something similar...
These notions of the spiritual significance of the psychedelic experience are as old as the use of the entheogenic plants themselves, it was not man who sat down and "decided" the parameters and abilities of this thing, they were discovered through ingestion of the plants over generations of time. I feel all religions are the exegesis of an initial psychedelic ecstasy.
The psychedelics destroy cultural notions even of their promoters, I have taken mushrooms many time and thought "terence mckenna is full if shit", while your on the compounds it's hard to conform to any culture, even psychedelic culture.
I look at people like Neal cassady, Ken kesey, Nick Sand, owsley Stanley, sasha shulgin, etc...as being as different from one another as night and day, we dont see a set image, it's not that every promoter wears tie-dye and has dread-locks, and all of their ideas are unique to their experience...
I see the psychedelic message, the shamanic message, as being "figure it out for yourself, don't take anybody's word on anything and let your experiences define your views"
It's great to listen to these psychedelic promoters, it's great to contemplate and entertain their ideas, but you can't confuse their ideas and their experiance for your own...
To "take anybody's word" for anything is cheating yourself out of the journey of discovery for yourself.
I think the psychedelic promoters promote this anti-culture and their compounds, more than the sets of accepted guidelines you have listed...
...I think I suffer from the same complex that Leary and mckenna and kesey must have suffered from, thinking that these things can do for anybody what they have done for me...I look at the people, the music, and the general "feeling" of 1968, and I see the exact opposites of base human culture, people are promoting peace, love, freedom, people are encouraging you to be as weird and unique as possible, and I think it was mass LSD consumption that was responsible for eliminating the dominator tendencies in our nature, if even just for a single summer the psychedelic mindstate was a common mindstate, and culture transformed as a result...I don't want to re-create '68, and I'm not trying to repeat th past, but I do think these anti- values rising from mass psychedelic use are benneficial...but I guess that's for another thread...
-E. Borodin
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BlacklightHorizon
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Re: Is the counter-culture brainwashed? [Re: resonant111] 1
#22173346 - 09/01/15 10:09 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Leary and Mckenna were full of shit and did not encourage an approachable way of handling psychedelics and the psychedelic experience, and they effect a lot of people involved in the counter culture as they have written lots of books on the topics. I myself plan on writing a book that will touch on some of this soon, I am in the middle of writing it now actually, and my opinion is that yes in a way the counter culture is brainwashed, if brainwashing is interchangable with mislead. I personally believe that psychedelics can pull you towards no ultimate truth, but billions of personal truths about your internal universe. It is Mckenna, Joe Rogan, Russel Brand, all these people who focus on finding some existential unanswerable truth, that mislead our culture down that road. So yes, to some extent they are brainwashed, but at least they are questioning, at least they are thinking differently, and it does not mean that they cannot be shown a more approachable and psychologically sound way of dealing with psychedelics.
My main point I need to stress is that these let you look inside, not outside, and when you start to confuse your revelations with outside reality is when you start to tread deeper waters that may be left untread. If you stick to figuring yourself out, which is all anyone in the world can do, you have a chance of keeping a rational viewpoint on psychedelics and actually take something valuable from these experiences.
Edited by BlacklightHorizon (09/01/15 10:16 AM)
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TENGOp
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Weird Scenes Inside the Canyon Laurel Canyon Covert Ops and the Dark Heart of the Hippy Dream By David McGowan
Very interesting read, touches everything ya'll are talking about. Worth the read
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resonant111
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Well said BlacklightHorizon
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Cognitive_Shift
CS actual




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Re: Is the counter-culture brainwashed? [Re: resonant111]
#22175929 - 09/01/15 09:25 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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We're all brainwashed by one form of culture or another
-------------------- L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
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RennHuhn
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Leary was full of shit. And anyone who thinks that the theories of McKenna are correct is mislead but McKenna never placed much importance on his theories, but his ideas about culture, the scientism, and freedom are one of the best there are.
If all the people who constantly claim McKenna was full of shit and would stop quoting him out of context and the people who think McKennas greatest accomplishment were his stupid timewave and stoned ape theories would shut up and listen to him when they are not stoned we finally could have a real discussion about his works and pick the good stuff from the BS.
Edited by RennHuhn (09/02/15 05:47 PM)
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Coincidentiaoppositorum
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Re: Is the counter-culture brainwashed? [Re: TENGOp]
#22177372 - 09/02/15 08:33 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
TENGOp said: Weird Scenes Inside the Canyon Laurel Canyon Covert Ops and the Dark Heart of the Hippy Dream By David McGowan
Very interesting read, touches everything ya'll are talking about. Worth the read
I can't fully by into McGowan, though it is interesting to say the least...
-E. Borodin
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Coincidentiaoppositorum
deep psychedelic


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Re: Is the counter-culture brainwashed? [Re: RennHuhn]
#22177395 - 09/02/15 08:54 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
RennHuhn said: Leary was full of shit. And anyone who thinks that the theories of McKenna are correct is mislead but McKenna never placed much empathise on his theories, but his ideas about culture, the scientism, and freedom are one of the best there are.
If all the people who constantly claim McKenna was full of shit and would stop quoting him out of context and the people who think McKennas greatest accomplishment were his stupid timewave and stoned ape theories would shut up and listen to him when they are not stoned we finally could have a real discussion about his works and pick the good stuff from the BS.
Mckenna never presented "theories", at least not in the conventional sense he was pushing the limits of creativity with novel thought production, mckenna never says he believes any of this stuff, he simply says "isn't this a strange thought", the people who put any more emphasis on his ideas than that are missing the point, mckenna himself said "we do not need a terence mckenna cult, that's the last thing I want"
Mckenna is the most misunderstood figure in psychedelia,
...even mckenna himself would say he would take psychedelics and think, "ok, your "Mr. Psychedelic", you know what the deal is"...then buy the time it kicked in he would have that same thought I had "mckenna is full of shit"
Most people get so hung up on the supposed absurdity of his far out notions that they fail to realize mckenna real message.
Which was don't take anybody's word for anything, don't buy into culture, think for yourself, and base you ideas off of experiance
As far as Leary goes, he was a brilliant man who perhaps handled the situation in an improper way, but at the same time, this was the beginnings of psychedelia in modern culture, the only way to know Leary was wrong was to have a figure like Leary make those mistakes, this doesn't mean that everything he did should be discarded, Leary was no fool.
I love Leary, and mckenna, and kesey, and shulgin, and Nick Sand and owsley bear stanley, and Huxley, and so on...
But I don't accept everything they say as set in stone fact, I see it as this is their interpretation of their experience, I derive what insight and wisdom I can from it, and continue to build my beliefs based solely off of personal experience...
Like I said before, to take anybody's word for anything is cheating yourself out if the journey of discovery for yourself, and at heart this is what all the psychedelic icons were promoting, radical personal transformation, self-discovery, and freedom to interpret reality as you choose, regardless of what anybody has to say about it...
-E. Borodin
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resonant111
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Quote:
Coincidentiaoppositorum said: Like I said before, to take anybody's word for anything is cheating yourself out if the journey of discovery for yourself, and at heart this is what all the psychedelic icons were promoting, radical personal transformation, self-discovery, and freedom to interpret reality as you choose, regardless of what anybody has to say about it...
-E. Borodin
That's the whole irony of those psychedelic figures though. They tell you to question authority and think for yourself, yet in believing them you are basically following another figure of authority! Take this piece from Leary for example:
Quote:
Timothy Leary said: Think for yourself Question authority
Throughout human history, as our species has faced the frightening, terrorizing fact that we do not know who we are, or where we are going in this ocean of chaos, it has been the authorities, the political, the religious, the educational authorities who attempted to comfort us by giving us order, rules, regulations, informing, forming in our minds their view of reality. To think for yourself you must question authority and learn how to put yourself in a state of vulnerable, open-mindedness; chaotic, confused, vulnerability to inform yourself.
Think for yourself. Question authority.
So in this bit Leary is telling us to think for ourselves. If someone listened to that bit and said "Oh yea, he's right! We need to challenge authority!" he basically just did what Leary is advising against (by completely believing in what he suggested.)
Back in the day I was pretty obsessed with Leary's views and 8 circuit model and stuff. So in essence I wasn't actually thinking for myself (even though I thought I was). I can be naive at times though.
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Jokeshopbeard
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Quote:
resonant111 said: That's the whole irony of those psychedelic figures though. They tell you to question authority and think for yourself, yet in believing them you are basically following another figure of authority!
I dunno man, from what Coincidentiaoppositorum said above, I think it seems pretty clear that even TM suggested that his ideas should not be followed absolutely:
Quote:
Coincidentiaoppositorum said: mckenna himself said "we do not need a terence mckenna cult, that's the last thing I want"
I think it's entirely possible for someone to say 'question everything, even what I am saying right now'...
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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Cognitive_Shift
CS actual




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Too bad a terrence mckenna cult of personality following is exactly what he was doing.
-------------------- L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
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RennHuhn
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Thats like claiming Tolkien has a personality cult. Which is not entirely wrong but at the same time completely unimportant.
Edited by RennHuhn (09/02/15 05:50 PM)
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RennHuhn
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Re: Is the counter-culture brainwashed? [Re: resonant111]
#22179296 - 09/02/15 05:54 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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"Half the time you think you are thinking you are actually listening" but reading about stuff and thinking and finally agreeing is completely ok. But a conscious effort should be made instead of believing in lots of second hand stuff without questioning. To question something does not mean to dismiss it.
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Lucent
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Re: Is the counter-culture brainwashed? [Re: RennHuhn]
#22180487 - 09/02/15 09:33 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Think of it this way. Whether you are liberal or conservative or black or white or whatever other opposing sides exist.. There are plenty of idiots on both sides.
The best side I've ever taken is in the middle. Try to believe what you want to believe. Everyone has valid points for their cause, at least to some degree.
"Cuz 420blazeit smoke weed everyday. nectar of the gods. nothing bad about it. it comes from the earth it isnt a drug." sounds just as dumb to me as "smoking weed is for the devil. lowlife scum of the earth."
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Coincidentiaoppositorum
deep psychedelic


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Re: Is the counter-culture brainwashed? [Re: resonant111]
#22181752 - 09/03/15 05:42 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
resonant111 said:
Quote:
Coincidentiaoppositorum said: Like I said before, to take anybody's word for anything is cheating yourself out if the journey of discovery for yourself, and at heart this is what all the psychedelic icons were promoting, radical personal transformation, self-discovery, and freedom to interpret reality as you choose, regardless of what anybody has to say about it...
-E. Borodin
That's the whole irony of those psychedelic figures though. They tell you to question authority and think for yourself, yet in believing them you are basically following another figure of authority! Take this piece from Leary for example:
Quote:
Timothy Leary said: Think for yourself Question authority
Throughout human history, as our species has faced the frightening, terrorizing fact that we do not know who we are, or where we are going in this ocean of chaos, it has been the authorities, the political, the religious, the educational authorities who attempted to comfort us by giving us order, rules, regulations, informing, forming in our minds their view of reality. To think for yourself you must question authority and learn how to put yourself in a state of vulnerable, open-mindedness; chaotic, confused, vulnerability to inform yourself.
Think for yourself. Question authority.
So in this bit Leary is telling us to think for ourselves. If someone listened to that bit and said "Oh yea, he's right! We need to challenge authority!" he basically just did what Leary is advising against (by completely believing in what he suggested.)
Back in the day I was pretty obsessed with Leary's views and 8 circuit model and stuff. So in essence I wasn't actually thinking for myself (even though I thought I was). I can be naive at times though. 
I think that the psychedelic icons were actually saying "don't follow me, don't take my word for it, go see for yourself"
Mckenna was at least....
Basically I think people should see these kinds of meetings as a tremendous opportunity to form local alliances. The last thing on earth we want here is a Terence McKenna cult. That would just be the stupidest resolution of the whole thing. The whole message is you don't need me, or Tim, or anybody else. Just take a little metaphysical responsibility for yourself. Realize you are the microcosm of the macrocosm and then get with like-minded people and proceed. I mean this is how political revolutions are made, by people just ignoring as irrelevant outmoded social forms and structures and insisting on their own authenticity
See, it's not that we want to convert the entire planet to taking mushrooms, it's that we just want to be left alone to do what we want to do. The mushroom, if its as great as I say it is, then it doesn't need a mob clearing the way for it it's perfectly able to advance its own agenda. -terence mckenna
Leary was a different case, and again, this was the start if psychedelics in modern culture, and the only way to find out Leary was wrong was to have a Tim Leary...and I don't fully think Leary had it wrong, I think he made some key mistakes.
The psychedelic icons promote psychedelics, and psychedelics destroy cultural programing, even mckenna said he would take mushrooms, Mr. Psychedelic preacher, and would realize "I don't know shit"
I think the psychedelic icons are more misunderstood than anything, everybody wants the answers and nobody wants to find them on their own...so they look to these guys, which was never meant to be their position.
-E. Borodin
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