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Coincidentiaoppositorum
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Re: Is the counter-culture brainwashed? [Re: RennHuhn]
#22161110 - 08/29/15 02:51 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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RennHuhn said: Acid Dreams, read it. One of the best books on the MK Ultra and related projects and the counter culture. It shows a good and realistic interpretation of the relationship between CIA/other agencies and counter culture, with lots of proof.
Another important book is the Brotherhood of Eternal love, especially regarding Ronald Stark. To understand the counterculture as good as possible there is a lot of reading needed, but I think anyone thinking abput psychedelics and politics should be informed about the counter culture to understand its failures strenghts and in what way police, state, media and various three letter agencies will fight radical change.
Everyone dreaming of revolution should learn how others failed and what remained.
Acid dreams was an excellent book, and I highly recommend it as well, it covers Sidney gotlieb, operation MK-Artichoke, operation midnight climax, MKULTRA, which includes universities, prisons, mental hospitals, and experiments preformed on random citizens or on an entire village in another country like pont-saint espirit France in 1953, it also outlines how the CIA would drop acid on one another with out consent, it was like a game to them, they drop acid in your food or drink, have a little fun with you as it kicks in, then they tell you that you have been dosed and send you home, the would even give high level political figures LSD, the fear being that the Russians would dose important political figures who would then act insane in public, so they would give them LSD so they would know it's effect...Frank Olsen was a biochemist for the CIA, they dosed him one night and he flipped out, the following week he was depressed and seemed to be questioning his work inventing chemical weapons for the government, Olsen had a lot of secrets, so he was thrown out of his hotel room, a later autopsy showed his skull had been crushed with a blunt objrct prior to the fall, he was thrown out of the window...Sidney gotlieb and other agents would even dress up like hippies or beatniks and go through the hip neighborhoods of the bay area giving LSD to willing and unwilling subjects...
... who knows how far some of these agents took these hippie disguises and drug distribution in hip neighborhoods under assumed hip identities, because of the CIA connections to laurel canyon and a top secret film studio called lookout mountain that was next to laurel canyon, who knows how many hippie icons were MKULTRA agents dressed as hippies, some agents obviously loving living as their LSD distributing hippie icon personas....one agent whose name I can't think of off the top of my head was quoted in acid dreams saying "I did not want to let go of something so beautiful" when referring to MKULTRA and LSD...These psychedelics obviously effected these CIA agents, who are required to be intelligent as part of their job, the same way they effect any other intelligent person who encounters them...
MKULTRA is my favorite CIA program to research, and it may still being going on to this day under a different name and may have expanded beyond drugs to magnetic fields that alter consciousness, to certain low or high sound-wave frequencies that can effect the mind, their mind manipulation (because it was never mind control, it was techniques of advanced mental manipulation) techniques must be advanced beyond what we can conceive, though I'm certain they still use psychedelics frequently in their trade, and still have mind manipulation programs involving psychedelic compounds running to this day...they are also global cocaine and heroin dealers, but that's another issue discussed on my previous posts...
-E. Borodin
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Forever Stoned
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Re: Is the counter-culture brainwashed? [Re: resonant111]
#22164544 - 08/30/15 12:10 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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resonant111 said: The average shroomerite typically accepts one or more of the following worldviews: (Yes I'm going to generalize)
-psychedelics have the potential to unlock some sort of "truth" or ultimate reality. -material culture is ignorant and blind to truth -the government keeps psychedelics illegal to profit and keep us from accessing truth -question authority, create your own reality -fascination in some sort of spiritual system or philosophy with "enlightenment" as the end goal
so i'd like to ask us...are we all full of bullshit? are we merely repeating the same mental-programs that leary, mckenna and the like ingrained into the counter-culture decades ago? are we really finding truth, or pretending to have conveniently found it? do we really think for ourselves or are we a cliche? did we just choose this psychedelic tribe because we felt out of place in traditional society?
I think these are all valid questions. Let's discuss.
It's a little of both.
I do think that psychedelics provide a genuine look behind the curtain, so to speak. I also think that to some extent, the government knows what's up, and wants to keep people from thinking outside the box and questioning authority.
However, at the same time, there are certainly plenty of people who subscribe to the counterculture that are full of it. Lots of people just repeat things that they have heard from Leary, etc. Lots of people go to festivals just because their friends are going. Lots of people just want to fit in. It's just like any other subset of people.
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usulpsychonaut


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Re: Is the counter-culture brainwashed? [Re: resonant111]
#22167649 - 08/31/15 04:15 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yeah the counter culture is full of shit. People are idiots, resistance is idiocy resisting idiocy. There is nothing new about the 1960's other than electricity. Changing ideas and new values have always repeated throughout history. State enforced progressiveness is responsible for much destruction, loss, pain, emptiness and suicide. The only counter culture is counter counter culture. Everything and nothing makes sense. Change is simultaneous evolution and apocalypse. Do gooders know not the harm they do yet it could never have been another way.
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Coincidentiaoppositorum
deep psychedelic


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Quote:
Forever Stoned said:
Quote:
resonant111 said: The average shroomerite typically accepts one or more of the following worldviews: (Yes I'm going to generalize)
-psychedelics have the potential to unlock some sort of "truth" or ultimate reality. -material culture is ignorant and blind to truth -the government keeps psychedelics illegal to profit and keep us from accessing truth -question authority, create your own reality -fascination in some sort of spiritual system or philosophy with "enlightenment" as the end goal
so i'd like to ask us...are we all full of bullshit? are we merely repeating the same mental-programs that leary, mckenna and the like ingrained into the counter-culture decades ago? are we really finding truth, or pretending to have conveniently found it? do we really think for ourselves or are we a cliche? did we just choose this psychedelic tribe because we felt out of place in traditional society?
I think these are all valid questions. Let's discuss.
It's a little of both.
I do think that psychedelics provide a genuine look behind the curtain, so to speak. I also think that to some extent, the government knows what's up, and wants to keep people from thinking outside the box and questioning authority.
However, at the same time, there are certainly plenty of people who subscribe to the counterculture that are full of it. Lots of people just repeat things that they have heard from Leary, etc. Lots of people go to festivals just because their friends are going. Lots of people just want to fit in. It's just like any other subset of people.
I think any time you conform to any set cultural standards it's a cop out for personal thought on many issues, there are people in the counterculture whose ideas I may enjoy, but to take those ideas on as your own is missing the point.
I've reached similar conclusions as some of the psychedelic icons, but it was not through their pontification, it was through my personal experience with the compounds, and if others have reached similar conclusions by using similar compounds I feel there's nothing wrong with listening to their take on it, its actually benneficial to hear others interpretations of the psychedelic experience, it helps map the terrain, they mention some sites to see on the way that you may have missed last time, and sure enough you will generally find something similar...
These notions of the spiritual significance of the psychedelic experience are as old as the use of the entheogenic plants themselves, it was not man who sat down and "decided" the parameters and abilities of this thing, they were discovered through ingestion of the plants over generations of time. I feel all religions are the exegesis of an initial psychedelic ecstasy.
The psychedelics destroy cultural notions even of their promoters, I have taken mushrooms many time and thought "terence mckenna is full if shit", while your on the compounds it's hard to conform to any culture, even psychedelic culture.
I look at people like Neal cassady, Ken kesey, Nick Sand, owsley Stanley, sasha shulgin, etc...as being as different from one another as night and day, we dont see a set image, it's not that every promoter wears tie-dye and has dread-locks, and all of their ideas are unique to their experience...
I see the psychedelic message, the shamanic message, as being "figure it out for yourself, don't take anybody's word on anything and let your experiences define your views"
It's great to listen to these psychedelic promoters, it's great to contemplate and entertain their ideas, but you can't confuse their ideas and their experiance for your own...
To "take anybody's word" for anything is cheating yourself out of the journey of discovery for yourself.
I think the psychedelic promoters promote this anti-culture and their compounds, more than the sets of accepted guidelines you have listed...
...I think I suffer from the same complex that Leary and mckenna and kesey must have suffered from, thinking that these things can do for anybody what they have done for me...I look at the people, the music, and the general "feeling" of 1968, and I see the exact opposites of base human culture, people are promoting peace, love, freedom, people are encouraging you to be as weird and unique as possible, and I think it was mass LSD consumption that was responsible for eliminating the dominator tendencies in our nature, if even just for a single summer the psychedelic mindstate was a common mindstate, and culture transformed as a result...I don't want to re-create '68, and I'm not trying to repeat th past, but I do think these anti- values rising from mass psychedelic use are benneficial...but I guess that's for another thread...
-E. Borodin
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BlacklightHorizon
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Re: Is the counter-culture brainwashed? [Re: resonant111] 1
#22173346 - 09/01/15 10:09 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Leary and Mckenna were full of shit and did not encourage an approachable way of handling psychedelics and the psychedelic experience, and they effect a lot of people involved in the counter culture as they have written lots of books on the topics. I myself plan on writing a book that will touch on some of this soon, I am in the middle of writing it now actually, and my opinion is that yes in a way the counter culture is brainwashed, if brainwashing is interchangable with mislead. I personally believe that psychedelics can pull you towards no ultimate truth, but billions of personal truths about your internal universe. It is Mckenna, Joe Rogan, Russel Brand, all these people who focus on finding some existential unanswerable truth, that mislead our culture down that road. So yes, to some extent they are brainwashed, but at least they are questioning, at least they are thinking differently, and it does not mean that they cannot be shown a more approachable and psychologically sound way of dealing with psychedelics.
My main point I need to stress is that these let you look inside, not outside, and when you start to confuse your revelations with outside reality is when you start to tread deeper waters that may be left untread. If you stick to figuring yourself out, which is all anyone in the world can do, you have a chance of keeping a rational viewpoint on psychedelics and actually take something valuable from these experiences.
Edited by BlacklightHorizon (09/01/15 10:16 AM)
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TENGOp
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Weird Scenes Inside the Canyon Laurel Canyon Covert Ops and the Dark Heart of the Hippy Dream By David McGowan
Very interesting read, touches everything ya'll are talking about. Worth the read
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resonant111
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Well said BlacklightHorizon
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Cognitive_Shift
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Re: Is the counter-culture brainwashed? [Re: resonant111]
#22175929 - 09/01/15 09:25 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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We're all brainwashed by one form of culture or another
-------------------- L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
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RennHuhn
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Leary was full of shit. And anyone who thinks that the theories of McKenna are correct is mislead but McKenna never placed much importance on his theories, but his ideas about culture, the scientism, and freedom are one of the best there are.
If all the people who constantly claim McKenna was full of shit and would stop quoting him out of context and the people who think McKennas greatest accomplishment were his stupid timewave and stoned ape theories would shut up and listen to him when they are not stoned we finally could have a real discussion about his works and pick the good stuff from the BS.
Edited by RennHuhn (09/02/15 05:47 PM)
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Coincidentiaoppositorum
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Re: Is the counter-culture brainwashed? [Re: TENGOp]
#22177372 - 09/02/15 08:33 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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TENGOp said: Weird Scenes Inside the Canyon Laurel Canyon Covert Ops and the Dark Heart of the Hippy Dream By David McGowan
Very interesting read, touches everything ya'll are talking about. Worth the read
I can't fully by into McGowan, though it is interesting to say the least...
-E. Borodin
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Coincidentiaoppositorum
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Re: Is the counter-culture brainwashed? [Re: RennHuhn]
#22177395 - 09/02/15 08:54 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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RennHuhn said: Leary was full of shit. And anyone who thinks that the theories of McKenna are correct is mislead but McKenna never placed much empathise on his theories, but his ideas about culture, the scientism, and freedom are one of the best there are.
If all the people who constantly claim McKenna was full of shit and would stop quoting him out of context and the people who think McKennas greatest accomplishment were his stupid timewave and stoned ape theories would shut up and listen to him when they are not stoned we finally could have a real discussion about his works and pick the good stuff from the BS.
Mckenna never presented "theories", at least not in the conventional sense he was pushing the limits of creativity with novel thought production, mckenna never says he believes any of this stuff, he simply says "isn't this a strange thought", the people who put any more emphasis on his ideas than that are missing the point, mckenna himself said "we do not need a terence mckenna cult, that's the last thing I want"
Mckenna is the most misunderstood figure in psychedelia,
...even mckenna himself would say he would take psychedelics and think, "ok, your "Mr. Psychedelic", you know what the deal is"...then buy the time it kicked in he would have that same thought I had "mckenna is full of shit"
Most people get so hung up on the supposed absurdity of his far out notions that they fail to realize mckenna real message.
Which was don't take anybody's word for anything, don't buy into culture, think for yourself, and base you ideas off of experiance
As far as Leary goes, he was a brilliant man who perhaps handled the situation in an improper way, but at the same time, this was the beginnings of psychedelia in modern culture, the only way to know Leary was wrong was to have a figure like Leary make those mistakes, this doesn't mean that everything he did should be discarded, Leary was no fool.
I love Leary, and mckenna, and kesey, and shulgin, and Nick Sand and owsley bear stanley, and Huxley, and so on...
But I don't accept everything they say as set in stone fact, I see it as this is their interpretation of their experience, I derive what insight and wisdom I can from it, and continue to build my beliefs based solely off of personal experience...
Like I said before, to take anybody's word for anything is cheating yourself out if the journey of discovery for yourself, and at heart this is what all the psychedelic icons were promoting, radical personal transformation, self-discovery, and freedom to interpret reality as you choose, regardless of what anybody has to say about it...
-E. Borodin
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resonant111
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Quote:
Coincidentiaoppositorum said: Like I said before, to take anybody's word for anything is cheating yourself out if the journey of discovery for yourself, and at heart this is what all the psychedelic icons were promoting, radical personal transformation, self-discovery, and freedom to interpret reality as you choose, regardless of what anybody has to say about it...
-E. Borodin
That's the whole irony of those psychedelic figures though. They tell you to question authority and think for yourself, yet in believing them you are basically following another figure of authority! Take this piece from Leary for example:
Quote:
Timothy Leary said: Think for yourself Question authority
Throughout human history, as our species has faced the frightening, terrorizing fact that we do not know who we are, or where we are going in this ocean of chaos, it has been the authorities, the political, the religious, the educational authorities who attempted to comfort us by giving us order, rules, regulations, informing, forming in our minds their view of reality. To think for yourself you must question authority and learn how to put yourself in a state of vulnerable, open-mindedness; chaotic, confused, vulnerability to inform yourself.
Think for yourself. Question authority.
So in this bit Leary is telling us to think for ourselves. If someone listened to that bit and said "Oh yea, he's right! We need to challenge authority!" he basically just did what Leary is advising against (by completely believing in what he suggested.)
Back in the day I was pretty obsessed with Leary's views and 8 circuit model and stuff. So in essence I wasn't actually thinking for myself (even though I thought I was). I can be naive at times though.
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Jokeshopbeard
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Quote:
resonant111 said: That's the whole irony of those psychedelic figures though. They tell you to question authority and think for yourself, yet in believing them you are basically following another figure of authority!
I dunno man, from what Coincidentiaoppositorum said above, I think it seems pretty clear that even TM suggested that his ideas should not be followed absolutely:
Quote:
Coincidentiaoppositorum said: mckenna himself said "we do not need a terence mckenna cult, that's the last thing I want"
I think it's entirely possible for someone to say 'question everything, even what I am saying right now'...
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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Cognitive_Shift
CS actual




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Too bad a terrence mckenna cult of personality following is exactly what he was doing.
-------------------- L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
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RennHuhn
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Thats like claiming Tolkien has a personality cult. Which is not entirely wrong but at the same time completely unimportant.
Edited by RennHuhn (09/02/15 05:50 PM)
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RennHuhn
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Re: Is the counter-culture brainwashed? [Re: resonant111]
#22179296 - 09/02/15 05:54 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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"Half the time you think you are thinking you are actually listening" but reading about stuff and thinking and finally agreeing is completely ok. But a conscious effort should be made instead of believing in lots of second hand stuff without questioning. To question something does not mean to dismiss it.
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Lucent
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Re: Is the counter-culture brainwashed? [Re: RennHuhn]
#22180487 - 09/02/15 09:33 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Think of it this way. Whether you are liberal or conservative or black or white or whatever other opposing sides exist.. There are plenty of idiots on both sides.
The best side I've ever taken is in the middle. Try to believe what you want to believe. Everyone has valid points for their cause, at least to some degree.
"Cuz 420blazeit smoke weed everyday. nectar of the gods. nothing bad about it. it comes from the earth it isnt a drug." sounds just as dumb to me as "smoking weed is for the devil. lowlife scum of the earth."
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Coincidentiaoppositorum
deep psychedelic


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Re: Is the counter-culture brainwashed? [Re: resonant111]
#22181752 - 09/03/15 05:42 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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resonant111 said:
Quote:
Coincidentiaoppositorum said: Like I said before, to take anybody's word for anything is cheating yourself out if the journey of discovery for yourself, and at heart this is what all the psychedelic icons were promoting, radical personal transformation, self-discovery, and freedom to interpret reality as you choose, regardless of what anybody has to say about it...
-E. Borodin
That's the whole irony of those psychedelic figures though. They tell you to question authority and think for yourself, yet in believing them you are basically following another figure of authority! Take this piece from Leary for example:
Quote:
Timothy Leary said: Think for yourself Question authority
Throughout human history, as our species has faced the frightening, terrorizing fact that we do not know who we are, or where we are going in this ocean of chaos, it has been the authorities, the political, the religious, the educational authorities who attempted to comfort us by giving us order, rules, regulations, informing, forming in our minds their view of reality. To think for yourself you must question authority and learn how to put yourself in a state of vulnerable, open-mindedness; chaotic, confused, vulnerability to inform yourself.
Think for yourself. Question authority.
So in this bit Leary is telling us to think for ourselves. If someone listened to that bit and said "Oh yea, he's right! We need to challenge authority!" he basically just did what Leary is advising against (by completely believing in what he suggested.)
Back in the day I was pretty obsessed with Leary's views and 8 circuit model and stuff. So in essence I wasn't actually thinking for myself (even though I thought I was). I can be naive at times though. 
I think that the psychedelic icons were actually saying "don't follow me, don't take my word for it, go see for yourself"
Mckenna was at least....
Basically I think people should see these kinds of meetings as a tremendous opportunity to form local alliances. The last thing on earth we want here is a Terence McKenna cult. That would just be the stupidest resolution of the whole thing. The whole message is you don't need me, or Tim, or anybody else. Just take a little metaphysical responsibility for yourself. Realize you are the microcosm of the macrocosm and then get with like-minded people and proceed. I mean this is how political revolutions are made, by people just ignoring as irrelevant outmoded social forms and structures and insisting on their own authenticity
See, it's not that we want to convert the entire planet to taking mushrooms, it's that we just want to be left alone to do what we want to do. The mushroom, if its as great as I say it is, then it doesn't need a mob clearing the way for it it's perfectly able to advance its own agenda. -terence mckenna
Leary was a different case, and again, this was the start if psychedelics in modern culture, and the only way to find out Leary was wrong was to have a Tim Leary...and I don't fully think Leary had it wrong, I think he made some key mistakes.
The psychedelic icons promote psychedelics, and psychedelics destroy cultural programing, even mckenna said he would take mushrooms, Mr. Psychedelic preacher, and would realize "I don't know shit"
I think the psychedelic icons are more misunderstood than anything, everybody wants the answers and nobody wants to find them on their own...so they look to these guys, which was never meant to be their position.
-E. Borodin
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