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clam_dude
stranger in astrange land

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Greenpeace - an evil and antiscientific organization
#22123381 - 08/21/15 04:39 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Greenpeace's anti-gmo stance is evil, antiscientific, and doing bad things for the future of humanity. I have heard a lot of talk recently about the evils of Monsanto. But the more I look into it, the more I find that these rumors are mostly conspiracy theory bs, and that greenpeace are in fact the evil ones. At this point, being anti-gmo is about equivalent to denying climate change. And poor, malnourished people in developing countries are paying the price for the prevalence of pseudoscientific nonsense here in the west. Anyone agree?
-------------------- "I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais
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BoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
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Re: Greenpeace - an evil and antiscientific organization [Re: clam_dude]
#22123872 - 08/21/15 06:36 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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I think you're going too far to call it evil. I agree that being anti-GMO is ignoring the overwhelming scientific knowledge on the subject. GMOs are one of the most marvellous tools we have, but being against them does not make you evil.
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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falcon



Registered: 04/01/02
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Re: Greenpeace - an evil and antiscientific organization [Re: clam_dude]
#22123921 - 08/21/15 06:54 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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I think Monsanto has undue influence in laws that govern GMOs. Although I don't think GMOs are dangerous, I also don't think they should be given patents that gives them sole discretion on what can be done with a GMO organism or that people that developed them should have proprietary rights once they've sold the product to anyone.
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BoldAsLove
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Re: Greenpeace - an evil and antiscientific organization [Re: falcon]
#22124002 - 08/21/15 07:16 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Why shouldn't you be able to patent a GMO? If you spend large amounts of money and years developing something why shouldn't you be allowed to capitalize on it? Where is the incentive for that kind of investment if you can't patent?
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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falcon



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Re: Greenpeace - an evil and antiscientific organization [Re: BoldAsLove]
#22124031 - 08/21/15 07:24 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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There isn't any. But I don't think the crafting is a big expense, it's the testing. I'm not convinced that it's in the best interest of any one nation to defend this as property.
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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Re: Greenpeace - an evil and antiscientific organization [Re: falcon]
#22124111 - 08/21/15 07:42 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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I disagree on your last couple of sentences anyway.
GMOs are used heavily in other parts of the world. The fact that there's a lot of unscientific opinions here in the west about GMOs really isn't hurting the industry.
There's some amazing shit happening with GMOd rice by the way. Drought tolerance and all sorts of cool stuff
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
Edited by paperbackwriter (08/21/15 07:45 PM)
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


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Re: Greenpeace - an evil and antiscientific organization [Re: paperbackwriter] 1
#22124223 - 08/21/15 08:02 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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GMO's are frankenstien food and some day humanity will pay the price for this abomination. Green peace goes too far sometimes but they are right about this matter.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


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Re: Greenpeace - an evil and antiscientific organization [Re: Stonehenge]
#22124236 - 08/21/15 08:05 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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You're joking right?
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


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Re: Greenpeace - an evil and antiscientific organization [Re: paperbackwriter]
#22124323 - 08/21/15 08:21 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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You haven't been following my posts very well to say that. Read the why we should label gmo thread and you will see all the studies showing gmo is bad, showing roundup is toxic and carcinogenic, etc. Plus the fact they don't produce much bigger yields and yields are dropping from them rapidly.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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falcon



Registered: 04/01/02
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Re: Greenpeace - an evil and antiscientific organization [Re: paperbackwriter]
#22124343 - 08/21/15 08:24 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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I'm not seeing how you're disagreeing with me, I haven't said anything about the science.
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clam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/10/03
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Re: Greenpeace - an evil and antiscientific organization [Re: BoldAsLove]
#22124676 - 08/21/15 09:44 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
BoldAsLove said: I think you're going too far to call it evil. I agree that being anti-GMO is ignoring the overwhelming scientific knowledge on the subject. GMOs are one of the most marvellous tools we have, but being against them does not make you evil.
Well it's true, just being against GMOs is one thing. But as an example of the harm Greenpeace has done - there is a small ngo in the Philippines that was trying to produce a variety of the golden rice with the added vitamin A, which the farmers could replant each year. This is in contrast to the corporation which was previously trying to do this but realized that there was no profit incentive since the government wanted re-plantable seeds to fit the needs of poor farmers. So the ngo took over, with a solely humanitarian mission.
Greenpeace organized a protest in which they trampled the testing fields. This goes far beyond simply criticizing the corporate interests involved with GMOs. GMOs have also been banned in almost every nation in Africa, due to paranoia and lack of scientific understanding in the west. Greenpeace plays a large role in this. Crops which could potentially help feed millions of starving people are entirely banned. Pseudoscience seems harmless, until it isn't
-------------------- "I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais
Edited by clam_dude (08/21/15 09:44 PM)
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clam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/10/03
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Re: Greenpeace - an evil and antiscientific organization [Re: paperbackwriter]
#22124724 - 08/21/15 09:54 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
paperbackwriter said: I disagree on your last couple of sentences anyway.
GMOs are used heavily in other parts of the world. The fact that there's a lot of unscientific opinions here in the west about GMOs really isn't hurting the industry.
There's some amazing shit happening with GMOd rice by the way. Drought tolerance and all sorts of cool stuff 
Yes, and while this rice has been developed, almost the entire continent of Africa has banned it, as well as India - because of scare tactics used by the likes of Greenpeace.
-------------------- "I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais
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BoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
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Re: Greenpeace - an evil and antiscientific organization [Re: clam_dude]
#22124964 - 08/21/15 11:03 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
clam_dude said:
Quote:
BoldAsLove said: I think you're going too far to call it evil. I agree that being anti-GMO is ignoring the overwhelming scientific knowledge on the subject. GMOs are one of the most marvellous tools we have, but being against them does not make you evil.
Well it's true, just being against GMOs is one thing. But as an example of the harm Greenpeace has done - there is a small ngo in the Philippines that was trying to produce a variety of the golden rice with the added vitamin A, which the farmers could replant each year. This is in contrast to the corporation which was previously trying to do this but realized that there was no profit incentive since the government wanted re-plantable seeds to fit the needs of poor farmers. So the ngo took over, with a solely humanitarian mission.
Greenpeace organized a protest in which they trampled the testing fields. This goes far beyond simply criticizing the corporate interests involved with GMOs. GMOs have also been banned in almost every nation in Africa, due to paranoia and lack of scientific understanding in the west. Greenpeace plays a large role in this. Crops which could potentially help feed millions of starving people are entirely banned. Pseudoscience seems harmless, until it isn't
You're preaching to the choir man. If you read any part of the GMO labeling thread, you'll see that I've been one of the most vocal supporters of GMOs. I researched them for a few years and I think they are absolutely fantastic tools.
I just think that Greenpeace has no evil intent. They're misguided and doing harm, but I think they legitimately think they are doing good.
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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Re: Greenpeace - an evil and antiscientific organization [Re: Stonehenge]
#22125823 - 08/22/15 07:45 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
clam_dude said:
Quote:
paperbackwriter said: I disagree on your last couple of sentences anyway.
GMOs are used heavily in other parts of the world. The fact that there's a lot of unscientific opinions here in the west about GMOs really isn't hurting the industry.
There's some amazing shit happening with GMOd rice by the way. Drought tolerance and all sorts of cool stuff 
Yes, and while this rice has been developed, almost the entire continent of Africa has banned it, as well as India - because of scare tactics used by the likes of Greenpeace.
Really? Alright nevermind then that's fucking dumb.
Quote:
Stonehenge said: You haven't been following my posts very well to say that. Read the why we should label gmo thread and you will see all the studies showing gmo is bad, showing roundup is toxic and carcinogenic, etc. Plus the fact they don't produce much bigger yields and yields are dropping from them rapidly.
I have been following that thread. I don't post there because Enlil has made some excellent arguments and I haven't read any strong counter arguments.
I think you're conflating Roundup and Monsanto with the technology that's GMO. It would be like banning computers because of Windows and Microsoft.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


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Posts: 14,850
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Re: Greenpeace - an evil and antiscientific organization [Re: paperbackwriter]
#22125871 - 08/22/15 08:03 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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There may be some gmo crops which are a good thing but we don't know because long term testing has not been done, only short term. They would never have allowed a drug on the market with so little testing but they allow this. That is because of political pressure and the revolving door between the fda and Monsanto and other big biotec companies.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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BoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


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Posts: 2,549
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Re: Greenpeace - an evil and antiscientific organization [Re: Stonehenge]
#22126215 - 08/22/15 10:10 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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That is a myth. Both long- term and multigenerational studies have been conducted. I've linked some for you several times. We've also been eating them for 30 years.
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


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Posts: 14,850
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Re: Greenpeace - an evil and antiscientific organization [Re: BoldAsLove]
#22126237 - 08/22/15 10:18 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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That is a falsehood. Moder gm techniques have only been around for a few years. Most testing has been for 90 days or so. Your position has been thoroughly debunked in the gm labeling thread despite your and enlil's prevarications.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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BoldAsLove
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Re: Greenpeace - an evil and antiscientific organization [Re: Stonehenge]
#22126684 - 08/22/15 12:34 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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I'll just leave this short list of long-term original studies that find no negative effects of GMOs (1,2,3,4,5) and multi-generational studies here (1, 2, 3,4,5,6,7). And the most commonly used techniques for genetic transformation have been around since the 80s (source, source). Care to provide a source to defend your position?
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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Douglas Howard
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Re: Greenpeace - an evil and antiscientific organization [Re: clam_dude]
#22127790 - 08/22/15 04:26 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
clam_dude said: Greenpeace's anti-gmo stance is evil, antiscientific, and doing bad things for the future of humanity. I have heard a lot of talk recently about the evils of Monsanto. But the more I look into it, the more I find that these rumors are mostly conspiracy theory bs, and that greenpeace are in fact the evil ones. At this point, being anti-gmo is about equivalent to denying climate change. And poor, malnourished people in developing countries are paying the price for the prevalence of pseudoscientific nonsense here in the west. Anyone agree?
In USD as of Aug 22, 2015 35k 70k 105k Commercial HVAC Chiller Technician in SAN Jose, CA $71,000 Technician Refrigeration in SAN Jose, CA $25,000 Commercial HVAC Refrigeration Technician in SAN Jose, CA $34,000 Engineer HVAC Technician in SAN Jose, CA $52,000 Temperature Control Technician in SAN Jose, CA $53,000 Facilities Operations Technician in SAN Jose, CA $72,000 HVAC Chiller Technician in SAN Jose, CA $98,000 HVAC Journeyman in SAN Jose, CA $55,000 Technician Commercial HVAC Other in SAN Jose, CA $67,000 Technician Commercial HVAC in SAN Jose, CA $66,000 Supermarket Refrigeration Technician in SAN Jose, CA $65,000 HVAC Refrigeration Technician in SAN Jose, CA $71,000 Commercial Refrigeration Technician in SAN Jose, CA $60,000
Does this pays a lot more than what monsanto is paying you for trolling?
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Douglas Howard
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Re: Greenpeace - an evil and antiscientific organization [Re: BoldAsLove] 1
#22127804 - 08/22/15 04:31 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
BoldAsLove said: Why shouldn't you be able to patent a GMO? If you spend large amounts of money and years developing something why shouldn't you be allowed to capitalize on it? Where is the incentive for that kind of investment if you can't patent?
For one thing, their products cross contaminate into other fields, and eventually their will be no more conventional seeds left which that will make the patent holder the controller of all seeds. And so no one will be able to start an organic farm if they want to.
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Yukon Cornelius
Bumble Wrangler



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Re: Greenpeace - an evil and antiscientific organization [Re: Douglas Howard]
#22127815 - 08/22/15 04:33 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Douglas Howard said:
Quote:
clam_dude said: Greenpeace's anti-gmo stance is evil, antiscientific, and doing bad things for the future of humanity. I have heard a lot of talk recently about the evils of Monsanto. But the more I look into it, the more I find that these rumors are mostly conspiracy theory bs, and that greenpeace are in fact the evil ones. At this point, being anti-gmo is about equivalent to denying climate change. And poor, malnourished people in developing countries are paying the price for the prevalence of pseudoscientific nonsense here in the west. Anyone agree?
In USD as of Aug 22, 2015 35k 70k 105k Commercial HVAC Chiller Technician in SAN Jose, CA $71,000 Technician Refrigeration in SAN Jose, CA $25,000 Commercial HVAC Refrigeration Technician in SAN Jose, CA $34,000 Engineer HVAC Technician in SAN Jose, CA $52,000 Temperature Control Technician in SAN Jose, CA $53,000 Facilities Operations Technician in SAN Jose, CA $72,000 HVAC Chiller Technician in SAN Jose, CA $98,000 HVAC Journeyman in SAN Jose, CA $55,000 Technician Commercial HVAC Other in SAN Jose, CA $67,000 Technician Commercial HVAC in SAN Jose, CA $66,000 Supermarket Refrigeration Technician in SAN Jose, CA $65,000 HVAC Refrigeration Technician in SAN Jose, CA $71,000 Commercial Refrigeration Technician in SAN Jose, CA $60,000
Does this pays a lot more than what monsanto is paying you for trolling?
How were those numbers relevant?
-------------------- "I didn't know chicken's wore suspenders" - Towelie
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BoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
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Re: Greenpeace - an evil and antiscientific organization [Re: Douglas Howard]
#22128152 - 08/22/15 06:23 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Douglas Howard said:
Quote:
BoldAsLove said: Why shouldn't you be able to patent a GMO? If you spend large amounts of money and years developing something why shouldn't you be allowed to capitalize on it? Where is the incentive for that kind of investment if you can't patent?
For one thing, their products cross contaminate into other fields, and eventually their will be no more conventional seeds left which that will make the patent holder the controller of all seeds. And so no one will be able to start an organic farm if they want to.
This is a text book reductio ad absurdum. Allowing patents on GMOs will not lead to a single company owning all the seeds and the end of organics.
Let's stick to reality. Why should all the time and money that these people invested not lead to patents? What is the incentive for them to invest that time and money if they cannot be the owners of their product?
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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Douglas Howard
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Re: Greenpeace - an evil and antiscientific organization [Re: BoldAsLove]
#22128168 - 08/22/15 06:28 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
BoldAsLove said:
Quote:
Douglas Howard said:
Quote:
BoldAsLove said: Why shouldn't you be able to patent a GMO? If you spend large amounts of money and years developing something why shouldn't you be allowed to capitalize on it? Where is the incentive for that kind of investment if you can't patent?
For one thing, their products cross contaminate into other fields, and eventually their will be no more conventional seeds left which that will make the patent holder the controller of all seeds. And so no one will be able to start an organic farm if they want to.
This is a text book reductio ad absurdum. Allowing patents on GMOs will not lead to a single company owning all the seeds and the end of organics.
Let's stick to reality. Why should all the time and money that these people invested not lead to patents? What is the incentive for them to invest that time and money if they cannot be the owners of their product?
The Monsanto Monopoly Control of the seed industry is passing into fewer and fewer hands and Monsanto's are the biggest. More than 80% of US corn and more than 90% of soybeans planted each year are attributable to Monsanto and monopoly comes to mind. Is control of the global food system their next target?
Philip Howard, a researcher at Michigan State University, has traced the consolidation of global seed industry. He says that that as four firms control 40% of supply it can no longer be regarded as a competitive market.
It gets worse. The “big four” biotech seed companies—Monsanto, DuPont/Pioneer Hi-Bred, Syngenta, and Dow AgroSciences—own 80% of the US corn market and 70% of the soybean business.
This should be called a cartel because it certainly isn’t a market.
Of course the companies would dispute this because they say that they do have different products and they do compete with each other. http://www.gmeducation.org/latest-news/p207220-the-monsanto-monopoly.html
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Stonehenge
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Re: Greenpeace - an evil and antiscientific organization [Re: BoldAsLove]
#22128172 - 08/22/15 06:30 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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In the gmo labeling thread there are a multitude of studies showing harm from gmo's.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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Douglas Howard
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Re: Greenpeace - an evil and antiscientific organization [Re: Douglas Howard]
#22128186 - 08/22/15 06:38 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Yukon Cornelius said:
Quote:
Douglas Howard said:
Quote:
clam_dude said: Greenpeace's anti-gmo stance is evil, antiscientific, and doing bad things for the future of humanity. I have heard a lot of talk recently about the evils of Monsanto. But the more I look into it, the more I find that these rumors are mostly conspiracy theory bs, and that greenpeace are in fact the evil ones. At this point, being anti-gmo is about equivalent to denying climate change. And poor, malnourished people in developing countries are paying the price for the prevalence of pseudoscientific nonsense here in the west. Anyone agree?
In USD as of Aug 22, 2015 35k 70k 105k Commercial HVAC Chiller Technician in SAN Jose, CA $71,000 Technician Refrigeration in SAN Jose, CA $25,000 Commercial HVAC Refrigeration Technician in SAN Jose, CA $34,000 Engineer HVAC Technician in SAN Jose, CA $52,000 Temperature Control Technician in SAN Jose, CA $53,000 Facilities Operations Technician in SAN Jose, CA $72,000 HVAC Chiller Technician in SAN Jose, CA $98,000 HVAC Journeyman in SAN Jose, CA $55,000 Technician Commercial HVAC Other in SAN Jose, CA $67,000 Technician Commercial HVAC in SAN Jose, CA $66,000 Supermarket Refrigeration Technician in SAN Jose, CA $65,000 HVAC Refrigeration Technician in SAN Jose, CA $71,000 Commercial Refrigeration Technician in SAN Jose, CA $60,000
Does this pays a lot more than what monsanto is paying you for trolling?
How were those numbers relevant?
Have you ever seen a post, comment, or reply that absolutely reeked of behind-the-scenes compensation by corporations like Monsanto? In the growing age of internet activism, and the expansion of social media as a tool to spread the word on real issues, paid internet trolling is becoming a new career path.
Now, in case you’re not familiar with what ‘trolling’ really is, I think Wikipedia has a great definition. According to Wikipedia, an internet troll is:
Read more: http://naturalsociety.com/monsanto-and-others-caught-paying-internet-trolls-to-attack-activists/#ixzz3jas1ZhM8 Follow us: @naturalsociety on Twitter | NaturalSociety on Facebook
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Douglas Howard
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Re: Greenpeace - an evil and antiscientific organization [Re: BoldAsLove]
#22128197 - 08/22/15 06:44 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
BoldAsLove said:
Quote:
Douglas Howard said:
Quote:
BoldAsLove said: Why shouldn't you be able to patent a GMO? If you spend large amounts of money and years developing something why shouldn't you be allowed to capitalize on it? Where is the incentive for that kind of investment if you can't patent?
For one thing, their products cross contaminate into other fields, and eventually their will be no more conventional seeds left which that will make the patent holder the controller of all seeds. And so no one will be able to start an organic farm if they want to.
This is a text book reductio ad absurdum. Allowing patents on GMOs will not lead to a single company owning all the seeds and the end of organics.
Let's stick to reality. Why should all the time and money that these people invested not lead to patents? What is the incentive for them to invest that time and money if they cannot be the owners of their product?
Lucky that I know our history..
Black Friday, September 24, 1869 was caused by the efforts of two speculators, Jay Gould and James Fisk, to corner the gold market on the New York Gold Exchange.[citation needed] It was one of several scandals that rocked[ambiguous] the presidency of Ulysses S. Grant. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Friday_(1869)
My father always told me that all businessmen were sons of bitches, but I never believed it till now. -- (Comment made 10 April 1962 in reaction to news that U.S. Steel was raising prices by $6 per ton, right after the unions negotiated a modest new contract under pressure from JFK to keep inflation down.) http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/36888.html
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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Re: Greenpeace - an evil and antiscientific organization [Re: Douglas Howard]
#22128595 - 08/22/15 08:50 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Douglas Howard said: paid internet trolling is becoming a new career path.
And here I've been trolling people for free this whole time
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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BoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


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Re: Greenpeace - an evil and antiscientific organization [Re: paperbackwriter]
#22128603 - 08/22/15 08:54 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stonehenge said: In the gmo labeling thread there are a multitude of studies showing harm from gmo's.
So, in other words, you have no response to the dozen or so papers I just linked that quite clearly refute your claims that "long term testing has not been done, only short term" and that "moder gm techniques have only been around for a few years"?
Also, I've read the vast majority of that thread closely and don't remember seeing the studies you are talking about. Could you please link one of them here?
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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BoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


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Re: Greenpeace - an evil and antiscientific organization [Re: Douglas Howard]
#22128611 - 08/22/15 08:56 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Douglas Howard said:
Quote:
BoldAsLove said:
Quote:
Douglas Howard said:
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BoldAsLove said: Why shouldn't you be able to patent a GMO? If you spend large amounts of money and years developing something why shouldn't you be allowed to capitalize on it? Where is the incentive for that kind of investment if you can't patent?
For one thing, their products cross contaminate into other fields, and eventually their will be no more conventional seeds left which that will make the patent holder the controller of all seeds. And so no one will be able to start an organic farm if they want to.
This is a text book reductio ad absurdum. Allowing patents on GMOs will not lead to a single company owning all the seeds and the end of organics.
Let's stick to reality. Why should all the time and money that these people invested not lead to patents? What is the incentive for them to invest that time and money if they cannot be the owners of their product?
The Monsanto Monopoly Control of the seed industry is passing into fewer and fewer hands and Monsanto's are the biggest. More than 80% of US corn and more than 90% of soybeans planted each year are attributable to Monsanto and monopoly comes to mind. Is control of the global food system their next target?
Philip Howard, a researcher at Michigan State University, has traced the consolidation of global seed industry. He says that that as four firms control 40% of supply it can no longer be regarded as a competitive market.
It gets worse. The “big four” biotech seed companies—Monsanto, DuPont/Pioneer Hi-Bred, Syngenta, and Dow AgroSciences—own 80% of the US corn market and 70% of the soybean business.
This should be called a cartel because it certainly isn’t a market.
Of course the companies would dispute this because they say that they do have different products and they do compete with each other. http://www.gmeducation.org/latest-news/p207220-the-monsanto-monopoly.html
The fact that most US corn and soybean is GM does not mean that GM will lead to the end of organic farming due to all seeds being owned by a single company. That is a ridiculous claim.
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


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Re: Greenpeace - an evil and antiscientific organization [Re: BoldAsLove]
#22129943 - 08/23/15 08:34 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Yeah, bold is a likely paid troll.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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BoldAsLove
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Re: Greenpeace - an evil and antiscientific organization [Re: Stonehenge] 1
#22130042 - 08/23/15 09:05 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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So I provided dozens of peer-reviewed sources that undeniably disprove your last two claims and your response is to call me a troll? Somehow I think that calling people out on their blatant and intentional lies doesn't count as trolling. Making blatant and intentional lies and then refusing to provide evidence - that sounds more like trolling.
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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Stonehenge
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Re: Greenpeace - an evil and antiscientific organization [Re: BoldAsLove]
#22130116 - 08/23/15 09:28 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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The other thread is full of studies which as I recall, you merely sneered at. You disproved nothing.
Lets look at the controversy over tobacco which has been recognized as harmful. But for years the tobacco industry cranked out scientific studies showing it was not only safe, but possibly good for you. This shows how money will buy whatever you are looking for and scientists can be bought. We all know monsatan has tons of money they are pouring into the effort. Don't be fooled by the baloney.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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Yukon Cornelius
Bumble Wrangler



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Re: Greenpeace - an evil and antiscientific organization [Re: Stonehenge]
#22130125 - 08/23/15 09:31 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stonehenge said: For years the tobacco industry cranked out scientific studies showing tobacco was not only safe, but possibly good for you.
One of those studies were true, it prevents ulcerative colitis.
-------------------- "I didn't know chicken's wore suspenders" - Towelie
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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Re: Greenpeace - an evil and antiscientific organization [Re: Yukon Cornelius]
#22130147 - 08/23/15 09:37 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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It's also a mild-MAOI and neural stimulant. I imagine a lot of smokers are self-treating mental health issues with it and that with some research medicine could be developed from it.
It's used heavily in Ayahuasca ceremonies.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


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Posts: 14,850
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Re: Greenpeace - an evil and antiscientific organization [Re: paperbackwriter]
#22130168 - 08/23/15 09:45 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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b caapi is a maoi, there are lots of safer substances than tobacco. Using it rarely for a ceremony is not as bad as smoking it every day like most smokers or chewing it every day.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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BoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
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Re: Greenpeace - an evil and antiscientific organization [Re: Stonehenge]
#22130233 - 08/23/15 10:04 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stonehenge said: The other thread is full of studies which as I recall, you merely sneered at. You disproved nothing.
Lets look at the controversy over tobacco which has been recognized as harmful. But for years the tobacco industry cranked out scientific studies showing it was not only safe, but possibly good for you. This shows how money will buy whatever you are looking for and scientists can be bought. We all know monsatan has tons of money they are pouring into the effort. Don't be fooled by the baloney.
Most of those studies were not peer-reviewed. And my sneering is what's called an "informed opinion." You never once mentioned why you disagreed with my analysis.
Besides, that wasn't what I was referring to. Just a couple posts ago you claimed that there were no long term studies done and that modern techniques have only existed for a few years. I unambiguously disproved both of these claims and you responded, rather ironically, by calling me a troll.
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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Re: Greenpeace - an evil and antiscientific organization [Re: Stonehenge]
#22130247 - 08/23/15 10:07 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stonehenge said: b caapi is a maoi, there are lots of safer substances than tobacco. Using it rarely for a ceremony is not as bad as smoking it every day like most smokers or chewing it every day.
I agree. And I know b. caapi is an MAOI. Tobacco is too though much milder.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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clam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
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Re: Greenpeace - an evil and antiscientific organization [Re: Douglas Howard]
#22130624 - 08/23/15 12:06 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Douglas Howard said: The Monsanto Monopoly Control of the seed industry is passing into fewer and fewer hands and Monsanto's are the biggest. More than 80% of US corn and more than 90% of soybeans planted each year are attributable to Monsanto and monopoly comes to mind. Is control of the global food system their next target?
Philip Howard, a researcher at Michigan State University, has traced the consolidation of global seed industry. He says that that as four firms control 40% of supply it can no longer be regarded as a competitive market.
It gets worse. The “big four” biotech seed companies—Monsanto, DuPont/Pioneer Hi-Bred, Syngenta, and Dow AgroSciences—own 80% of the US corn market and 70% of the soybean business.
This should be called a cartel because it certainly isn’t a market.
Of course the companies would dispute this because they say that they do have different products and they do compete with each other. http://www.gmeducation.org/latest-news/p207220-the-monsanto-monopoly.html
The ironic thing is that the anti gmo croud has made it extremely difficult and expensive to patent seeds. This has resulted in only a few large companies having the resources to do so. It's sort of a self fulfilling prophecy.
The other thing is that, as I said earlier, the anti gmo croud has been protesting ngos, which have tried to create public domain gmo seeds. Likewise, non gmo seeds have been patented since the 1930's. So clearly, opposition to seed patenting is a separate issue from opposition to gmos. But they've been conflated.
Not to mention, the patents are only good for 20 years - enough time for the company to make a short term profit, but not enough for the company to control agriculture until the end of time. As it has been about 20 years since gmos became widely used, many gmo seeds are no longer under patent control.
I'll add that I've heard many horror stories about the evils of Monsanto. But most of these stories have turned out not to be true. For example, I had been under the impression that Monsanto has sued poor independent farmers who had gmo seeds blow on to their fields, and grew them unwittingly. When I looked this up for myself, it turned out not to be true.
So I'm skeptical when I hear about how evil Monsanto is. Perhaps there are real concerns, as there are with any large corporation and consolidation of power. But so much of what I've heard in particular from the anti gmo folks is basically in the realm of conspiracy theories.
It's an easy pill to swallow - the large corporation that doesn't care about anything but it's bottom line - at the expense of public health. But I care about what's true, and when I look up these specific horror stories, they turn out to be false. If anything, this is just muddying the waters of what could be a productive debate.
-------------------- "I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais
Edited by clam_dude (08/23/15 12:24 PM)
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clam_dude
stranger in astrange land

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Re: Greenpeace - an evil and antiscientific organization [Re: clam_dude]
#22130760 - 08/23/15 12:35 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Also, I checked out the website you posted a link to. It clearly has an anti-gmo bias. I clicked on the first section, "do we need gm to feed the world?" And it's full of garbage. I don't trust anything they say for a second and don't think it's worth reading what they have to say about Monsatan. I'm perfectly comfortable criticizing large corporations - I'm a Chomsky fan, for example, and am generally suspicious of large corporations. But like I said, I care about what's true.
-------------------- "I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
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Re: Greenpeace - an evil and antiscientific organization [Re: clam_dude]
#22130762 - 08/23/15 12:36 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Oh really?
http://naturalsociety.com/monsanto-sued-farmers-16-years-gmos-never-lost/
Monsanto Sues Farmers for 16 Straight Years over GMOs, NEVER Loses
Christina Sarich
by Christina Sarich Posted on August 29, 2014
monsantoWhere is the justice? Since 1997, Monsanto has filed 145 lawsuits, or on average about 9 lawsuits every year for 16 straight years, against farmers who have “improperly reused their patented seeds.”
The biotech giant hasn’t lost a single case, either. Not one. This includes when farmers tried to sue Monsanto over cross-pollination of their organic crops with GMO seed. For example, a federal court dismissed one of those cases, saying that it couldn’t protect Monsanto against unfair lawsuits should they side in the farmers’ favor. What about unfair business practices? What about 92% of people saying they want their food labeled if it contains genetically modified ingredients? What about the right of farmers to grow food from seed that hasn’t been altered to turn it into a DNA freak show?
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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clam_dude
stranger in astrange land

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Re: Greenpeace - an evil and antiscientific organization [Re: Stonehenge]
#22130804 - 08/23/15 12:46 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Maybe it just boils down to the fact that I'm a little more discerning of what websites I take at face value. To me, the name of the website "Naturalsociety" is a turn off. There is a widespread "natural fallacy" which this website is clearly taking advantage of. I'll give you this - the anti gmo and anti Monsanto campaign has been so successful that it's very hard to find useful information on the subject. If you google Monsanto or gmo, the first 2 pages of google search are filled with pseudoscientific nonsense.
-------------------- "I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais
Edited by clam_dude (08/23/15 12:46 PM)
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
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Re: Greenpeace - an evil and antiscientific organization [Re: clam_dude]
#22130921 - 08/23/15 01:25 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Stoney you're still conflating Monsanto with GMO. Fuck Microsoft let's ban computers!
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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BoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


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Re: Greenpeace - an evil and antiscientific organization [Re: clam_dude]
#22130971 - 08/23/15 01:39 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
clam_dude said: Maybe it just boils down to the fact that I'm a little more discerning of what websites I take at face value. To me, the name of the website "Naturalsociety" is a turn off. There is a widespread "natural fallacy" which this website is clearly taking advantage of. I'll give you this - the anti gmo and anti Monsanto campaign has been so successful that it's very hard to find useful information on the subject. If you google Monsanto or gmo, the first 2 pages of google search are filled with pseudoscientific nonsense.
Luckily for you and everyone else, there is a wealth of information concerning GMOs available in the form of peer-reviewed studies and opinions from international reputable scientific organizations. Too bad this gets less attention because it doesn't have catchy and/or scary titles. It's a shame that people believe clearly biased web sites in favor of peer-reviewed research, but that's what happens when someone makes up their mind and then goes looking for evidence to support their case.
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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Kurt
Thinker, blinker, writer, typer.

Registered: 11/26/14
Posts: 1,688
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Re: Greenpeace - an evil and antiscientific organization [Re: BoldAsLove]
#22131022 - 08/23/15 01:53 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
BoldAsLove said:
Quote:
Stonehenge said: The other thread is full of studies which as I recall, you merely sneered at. You disproved nothing.
Lets look at the controversy over tobacco which has been recognized as harmful. But for years the tobacco industry cranked out scientific studies showing it was not only safe, but possibly good for you. This shows how money will buy whatever you are looking for and scientists can be bought. We all know monsatan has tons of money they are pouring into the effort. Don't be fooled by the baloney.
Most of those studies were not peer-reviewed. And my sneering is what's called an "informed opinion." You never once mentioned why you disagreed with my analysis.
Besides, that wasn't what I was referring to. Just a couple posts ago you claimed that there were no long term studies done and that modern techniques have only existed for a few years. I unambiguously disproved both of these claims and you responded, rather ironically, by calling me a troll.
Well, clearly calling troll is usually a way of conceding argument in some manner of derivation. :-)
Greenpeace isn't evil, or objective; they are politically interested environmentalists.
The problem is people look to collective social perceptions in a derivative way - whether it is to agree or disagree with as a basis for understanding. So what if greenpeace is founded by a majority of young people who want to be a part of something; is that a good premise for discussion?
The issue of GMOs should be expressed in certain terms; yet clearly that is not limited to a manner in which textbook data or "information" is gathered either. Being informed is clearly a manner of speaking.
This is a 30 year old technological paradigm of genetics. The first thing that could be called being informed, to many minds, is recognizing that technological research is going to be inherently colored by practical incentive, or human economics, and to the extent that is not acknowledged, corporate industry.
Americans need to think pragmatically and relatively independently, in skepticism of the naive assembly line industriousness that our country stands in a notorious and obvious contempt for to the rest of the free thinking world.
The face value appeal of liberal institutions, egalitarianism, and the appeal of free market are coloring the question of what GMOs are in the world, and not everyone thinks leveling to the entrenched conventionality of technophelic consumer based culture (basically modern America) is the best approach.
(Edit; enough said.)
Edited by Kurt (08/25/15 11:46 AM)
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Douglas Howard
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Re: Greenpeace - an evil and antiscientific organization [Re: Kurt]
#22138618 - 08/25/15 03:09 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Science is crucial to environmental protection. Many of the global problems we face - like climate change, ozone depletion, and the spread of hormone disrupting chemicals - can only be detected and understood through science. zoom
Equally, science is used to justify the existence and deployment of environmental threats, such as nuclear power and genetically modified organisms. Our opposition to these technologies has led to accusations that Greenpeace is 'anti-science'. This is far from the case. We depend on science and technology to provide solutions to environmental threats.
Because of this double-edged relationship with science, its use and governance is important to us and we are working to stimulate debate about the use of new technologies.
We have also critiqued the lack of public involvement in science and the need for reform of the relationship between science and society.
The Greenpeace Science Laboratory at Exeter University has made some important achievements in environmental protection. The lab's role is threefold:

http://www.greenpeace.org/international/en/about/greenpeace-science-unit-2/
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clam_dude
stranger in astrange land

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Re: Greenpeace - an evil and antiscientific organization [Re: Douglas Howard]
#22147077 - 08/26/15 03:07 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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"Our opposition to these technologies has led to accusations that Greenpeace is 'anti-science'. This is far from the case. "
And nowhere do they say how this is not the case. It seems to me that this is the case as there is a scientific consensus which they're ignoring. That would be the definition of "anti-science".
-------------------- "I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais
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