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OfflineYukon Cornelius
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Posts: 1,348
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Re: Greenpeace - an evil and antiscientific organization [Re: Douglas Howard]
    #22127815 - 08/22/15 04:33 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Douglas Howard said:
Quote:

clam_dude said:
Greenpeace's anti-gmo stance is evil, antiscientific, and doing bad things for the future of humanity.  I have heard a lot of talk recently about the evils of Monsanto.  But the more I look into it, the more I find that these rumors are mostly conspiracy theory bs, and that greenpeace are in fact the evil ones.  At this point, being anti-gmo is about equivalent to denying climate change.  And poor, malnourished people in developing countries are paying the price for the prevalence of pseudoscientific nonsense here in the west.  Anyone agree?





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Does this pays a lot more than what monsanto is paying you for trolling?




How were those numbers relevant?


--------------------
"I didn't know chicken's wore suspenders" - Towelie



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InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: Greenpeace - an evil and antiscientific organization [Re: Douglas Howard]
    #22128152 - 08/22/15 06:23 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Douglas Howard said:
Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Why shouldn't you be able to patent a GMO? If you spend large amounts of money and years developing something why shouldn't you be allowed to capitalize on it? Where is the incentive for that kind of investment if you can't patent?




For one thing, their products cross contaminate into other fields, and eventually their will be no more conventional seeds left which that will make the patent holder the controller of all seeds. And so no one will be able to start an organic farm if they want to.




This is a text book reductio ad absurdum. Allowing patents on GMOs will not lead to a single company owning all the seeds and the end of organics.

Let's stick to reality. Why should all the time and money that these people invested not lead to patents? What is the incentive for them to invest that time and money if they cannot be the owners of their product?


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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OfflineDouglas Howard
Stranger
Registered: 03/26/15
Posts: 1,678
Last seen: 7 years, 3 months
Re: Greenpeace - an evil and antiscientific organization [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #22128168 - 08/22/15 06:28 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

Douglas Howard said:
Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Why shouldn't you be able to patent a GMO? If you spend large amounts of money and years developing something why shouldn't you be allowed to capitalize on it? Where is the incentive for that kind of investment if you can't patent?




For one thing, their products cross contaminate into other fields, and eventually their will be no more conventional seeds left which that will make the patent holder the controller of all seeds. And so no one will be able to start an organic farm if they want to.




This is a text book reductio ad absurdum. Allowing patents on GMOs will not lead to a single company owning all the seeds and the end of organics.

Let's stick to reality. Why should all the time and money that these people invested not lead to patents? What is the incentive for them to invest that time and money if they cannot be the owners of their product?




The Monsanto Monopoly
Control of the seed industry is passing into fewer and fewer hands and Monsanto's are the biggest. More than 80% of US corn and more than 90% of soybeans planted each year are attributable to Monsanto and monopoly comes to mind.
Is control of the global food system their next target?

Philip Howard, a researcher at Michigan State University, has traced the consolidation of global seed industry. He says that that as four firms control 40% of supply it can no longer be regarded as a competitive market.

It gets worse. The “big four” biotech seed companies—Monsanto, DuPont/Pioneer Hi-Bred, Syngenta, and Dow AgroSciences—own 80% of the US corn market and 70% of the soybean business.

This should be called a cartel because it certainly isn’t a market.

Of course the companies would dispute this because they say that they do have different products and they do compete with each other.
http://www.gmeducation.org/latest-news/p207220-the-monsanto-monopoly.html


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
Re: Greenpeace - an evil and antiscientific organization [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #22128172 - 08/22/15 06:30 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

In the gmo labeling thread there are a multitude of studies showing harm from gmo's.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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OfflineDouglas Howard
Stranger
Registered: 03/26/15
Posts: 1,678
Last seen: 7 years, 3 months
Re: Greenpeace - an evil and antiscientific organization [Re: Douglas Howard]
    #22128186 - 08/22/15 06:38 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Yukon Cornelius said:
Quote:

Douglas Howard said:
Quote:

clam_dude said:
Greenpeace's anti-gmo stance is evil, antiscientific, and doing bad things for the future of humanity.  I have heard a lot of talk recently about the evils of Monsanto.  But the more I look into it, the more I find that these rumors are mostly conspiracy theory bs, and that greenpeace are in fact the evil ones.  At this point, being anti-gmo is about equivalent to denying climate change.  And poor, malnourished people in developing countries are paying the price for the prevalence of pseudoscientific nonsense here in the west.  Anyone agree?





In USD as of Aug 22, 2015
35k
70k
105k
Commercial HVAC Chiller Technician in SAN Jose, CA
$71,000
Technician Refrigeration in SAN Jose, CA
$25,000
Commercial HVAC Refrigeration Technician in SAN Jose, CA
$34,000
Engineer HVAC Technician in SAN Jose, CA
$52,000
Temperature Control Technician in SAN Jose, CA
$53,000
Facilities Operations Technician in SAN Jose, CA
$72,000
HVAC Chiller Technician in SAN Jose, CA
$98,000
HVAC Journeyman in SAN Jose, CA
$55,000
Technician Commercial HVAC Other in SAN Jose, CA
$67,000
Technician Commercial HVAC in SAN Jose, CA
$66,000
Supermarket Refrigeration Technician in SAN Jose, CA
$65,000
HVAC Refrigeration Technician in SAN Jose, CA
$71,000
Commercial Refrigeration Technician in SAN Jose, CA
$60,000


Does this pays a lot more than what monsanto is paying you for trolling?




How were those numbers relevant?




Have you ever seen a post, comment, or reply that absolutely reeked of behind-the-scenes compensation by corporations like Monsanto? In the growing age of internet activism, and the expansion of social media as a tool to spread the word on real issues, paid internet trolling is becoming a new career path.

Now, in case you’re not familiar with what ‘trolling’ really is, I think Wikipedia has a great definition. According to Wikipedia, an internet troll is:



Read more: http://naturalsociety.com/monsanto-and-others-caught-paying-internet-trolls-to-attack-activists/#ixzz3jas1ZhM8
Follow us: @naturalsociety on Twitter | NaturalSociety on Facebook


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OfflineDouglas Howard
Stranger
Registered: 03/26/15
Posts: 1,678
Last seen: 7 years, 3 months
Re: Greenpeace - an evil and antiscientific organization [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #22128197 - 08/22/15 06:44 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

Douglas Howard said:
Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Why shouldn't you be able to patent a GMO? If you spend large amounts of money and years developing something why shouldn't you be allowed to capitalize on it? Where is the incentive for that kind of investment if you can't patent?




For one thing, their products cross contaminate into other fields, and eventually their will be no more conventional seeds left which that will make the patent holder the controller of all seeds. And so no one will be able to start an organic farm if they want to.




This is a text book reductio ad absurdum. Allowing patents on GMOs will not lead to a single company owning all the seeds and the end of organics.

Let's stick to reality. Why should all the time and money that these people invested not lead to patents? What is the incentive for them to invest that time and money if they cannot be the owners of their product?




Lucky that I know our history..

Black Friday, September 24, 1869 was caused by the efforts of two speculators, Jay Gould and James Fisk, to corner the gold market on the New York Gold Exchange.[citation needed] It was one of several scandals that rocked[ambiguous] the presidency of Ulysses S. Grant.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Friday_(1869)


My father always told me that all businessmen were sons of bitches, but I never believed it till now. -- (Comment made 10 April 1962 in reaction to news that U.S. Steel was raising prices by $6 per ton, right after the unions negotiated a modest new contract under pressure from JFK to keep inflation down.)  http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/36888.html


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: Greenpeace - an evil and antiscientific organization [Re: Douglas Howard]
    #22128595 - 08/22/15 08:50 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Douglas Howard said:
paid internet trolling is becoming a new career path.





And here I've been trolling people for free this whole time :facepalm:


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: Greenpeace - an evil and antiscientific organization [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22128603 - 08/22/15 08:54 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
In the gmo labeling thread there are a multitude of studies showing harm from gmo's.




So, in other words, you have no response to the dozen or so papers I just linked that quite clearly refute your claims that "long term testing has not been done, only short term" and that "moder gm techniques have only been around for a few years"?

Also, I've read the vast majority of that thread closely and don't remember seeing the studies you are talking about. Could you please link one of them here?


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: Greenpeace - an evil and antiscientific organization [Re: Douglas Howard]
    #22128611 - 08/22/15 08:56 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Douglas Howard said:
Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

Douglas Howard said:
Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Why shouldn't you be able to patent a GMO? If you spend large amounts of money and years developing something why shouldn't you be allowed to capitalize on it? Where is the incentive for that kind of investment if you can't patent?




For one thing, their products cross contaminate into other fields, and eventually their will be no more conventional seeds left which that will make the patent holder the controller of all seeds. And so no one will be able to start an organic farm if they want to.




This is a text book reductio ad absurdum. Allowing patents on GMOs will not lead to a single company owning all the seeds and the end of organics.

Let's stick to reality. Why should all the time and money that these people invested not lead to patents? What is the incentive for them to invest that time and money if they cannot be the owners of their product?




The Monsanto Monopoly
Control of the seed industry is passing into fewer and fewer hands and Monsanto's are the biggest. More than 80% of US corn and more than 90% of soybeans planted each year are attributable to Monsanto and monopoly comes to mind.
Is control of the global food system their next target?

Philip Howard, a researcher at Michigan State University, has traced the consolidation of global seed industry. He says that that as four firms control 40% of supply it can no longer be regarded as a competitive market.

It gets worse. The “big four” biotech seed companies—Monsanto, DuPont/Pioneer Hi-Bred, Syngenta, and Dow AgroSciences—own 80% of the US corn market and 70% of the soybean business.

This should be called a cartel because it certainly isn’t a market.

Of course the companies would dispute this because they say that they do have different products and they do compete with each other.
http://www.gmeducation.org/latest-news/p207220-the-monsanto-monopoly.html




The fact that most US corn and soybean is GM does not mean that GM will lead to the end of organic farming due to all seeds being owned by a single company. That is a ridiculous claim.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
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Re: Greenpeace - an evil and antiscientific organization [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #22129943 - 08/23/15 08:34 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Yeah, bold is a likely paid troll.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: Greenpeace - an evil and antiscientific organization [Re: Stonehenge] * 1
    #22130042 - 08/23/15 09:05 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

So I provided dozens of peer-reviewed sources that undeniably disprove your last two claims and your response is to call me a troll? Somehow I think that calling people out on their blatant and intentional lies doesn't count as trolling. Making blatant and intentional lies and then refusing to provide evidence - that sounds more like trolling.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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InvisibleStonehenge
Alt Center
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
Re: Greenpeace - an evil and antiscientific organization [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #22130116 - 08/23/15 09:28 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

The other thread is full of studies which as I recall, you merely sneered at. You disproved nothing.

Lets look at the controversy over tobacco which has been recognized as harmful. But for years the tobacco industry cranked out scientific studies showing it was not only safe, but possibly good for you. This shows how money will buy whatever you are looking for and scientists can be bought. We all know monsatan has tons of money they are pouring into the effort. Don't be fooled by the baloney.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755


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OfflineYukon Cornelius
Bumble Wrangler
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Registered: 09/01/13
Posts: 1,348
Loc: Peppermint Mines
Last seen: 9 hours, 12 minutes
Re: Greenpeace - an evil and antiscientific organization [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22130125 - 08/23/15 09:31 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
For years the tobacco industry cranked out scientific studies showing tobacco was not only safe, but possibly good for you.




One of those studies were true, it prevents ulcerative colitis.


--------------------
"I didn't know chicken's wore suspenders" - Towelie



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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: Greenpeace - an evil and antiscientific organization [Re: Yukon Cornelius]
    #22130147 - 08/23/15 09:37 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

It's also a mild-MAOI and neural stimulant.  I imagine a lot of smokers are self-treating mental health issues with it and that with some research medicine could be developed from it.

It's used heavily in Ayahuasca ceremonies.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
Re: Greenpeace - an evil and antiscientific organization [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22130168 - 08/23/15 09:45 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

b caapi is a maoi, there are lots of safer substances than tobacco. Using it rarely for a ceremony is not as bad as smoking it every day like most smokers or chewing it every day.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: Greenpeace - an evil and antiscientific organization [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22130233 - 08/23/15 10:04 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
The other thread is full of studies which as I recall, you merely sneered at. You disproved nothing.

Lets look at the controversy over tobacco which has been recognized as harmful. But for years the tobacco industry cranked out scientific studies showing it was not only safe, but possibly good for you. This shows how money will buy whatever you are looking for and scientists can be bought. We all know monsatan has tons of money they are pouring into the effort. Don't be fooled by the baloney.




Most of those studies were not peer-reviewed. And my sneering is what's called an "informed opinion." You never once mentioned why you disagreed with my analysis.

Besides, that wasn't what I was referring to. Just a couple posts ago you claimed that there were no long term studies done and that modern techniques have only existed for a few years. I unambiguously disproved both of these claims and you responded, rather ironically, by calling me a troll.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: Greenpeace - an evil and antiscientific organization [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22130247 - 08/23/15 10:07 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
b caapi is a maoi, there are lots of safer substances than tobacco. Using it rarely for a ceremony is not as bad as smoking it every day like most smokers or chewing it every day.




I agree.  And I know b. caapi is an MAOI.  Tobacco is too though much milder.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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Offlineclam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
Loc: twilight zone
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
Re: Greenpeace - an evil and antiscientific organization [Re: Douglas Howard]
    #22130624 - 08/23/15 12:06 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Douglas Howard said:
The Monsanto Monopoly
Control of the seed industry is passing into fewer and fewer hands and Monsanto's are the biggest. More than 80% of US corn and more than 90% of soybeans planted each year are attributable to Monsanto and monopoly comes to mind.
Is control of the global food system their next target?

Philip Howard, a researcher at Michigan State University, has traced the consolidation of global seed industry. He says that that as four firms control 40% of supply it can no longer be regarded as a competitive market.

It gets worse. The “big four” biotech seed companies—Monsanto, DuPont/Pioneer Hi-Bred, Syngenta, and Dow AgroSciences—own 80% of the US corn market and 70% of the soybean business.

This should be called a cartel because it certainly isn’t a market.

Of course the companies would dispute this because they say that they do have different products and they do compete with each other.
http://www.gmeducation.org/latest-news/p207220-the-monsanto-monopoly.html




The ironic thing is that the anti gmo croud has made it extremely difficult and expensive to patent seeds.  This has resulted in only a few large companies having the resources to do so.  It's sort of a self fulfilling prophecy. 

The other thing is that, as I said earlier, the anti gmo croud has been protesting ngos, which have tried to create public domain gmo seeds.  Likewise, non gmo seeds have been patented since the 1930's.  So clearly, opposition to seed patenting is a separate  issue from opposition to gmos.  But they've been conflated.

Not to mention, the patents are only good for 20 years - enough time for the company to make a short term profit, but not enough for the company to control agriculture until the end of time.  As it has been about 20 years since gmos became widely used, many gmo seeds are no longer under patent control. 

I'll add that I've heard many horror stories about the evils of Monsanto.  But most of these stories have turned out not to be true.  For example, I had been under the impression that Monsanto has sued poor independent farmers who had gmo seeds blow on to their fields, and grew them unwittingly.  When I looked this up for myself, it turned out not to be true. 

So I'm skeptical when I hear about how evil Monsanto is.  Perhaps there are real concerns, as there are with any large corporation and consolidation of power.  But so much of what I've heard in particular from the anti gmo folks is basically in the realm of conspiracy theories. 

It's an easy pill to swallow - the large corporation that doesn't care about anything but it's bottom line - at the expense of public health.  But I care about what's true, and when I look up these specific horror stories, they turn out to be false.  If anything, this is just muddying the waters of what could be a productive debate. 


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


Edited by clam_dude (08/23/15 12:24 PM)


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Offlineclam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
Loc: twilight zone
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Re: Greenpeace - an evil and antiscientific organization [Re: clam_dude]
    #22130760 - 08/23/15 12:35 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Also, I checked out the website you posted a link to.  It clearly has an anti-gmo bias.  I clicked on the first section, "do we need gm to feed the world?"  And it's full of garbage.  I don't trust anything they say for a second and don't think it's worth reading what they have to say about Monsatan.  I'm perfectly comfortable criticizing large corporations - I'm a Chomsky fan, for example, and am generally suspicious of large corporations.  But like I said, I care about what's true.


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Greenpeace - an evil and antiscientific organization [Re: clam_dude]
    #22130762 - 08/23/15 12:36 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Oh really?

http://naturalsociety.com/monsanto-sued-farmers-16-years-gmos-never-lost/

Monsanto Sues Farmers for 16 Straight Years over GMOs, NEVER Loses

Christina Sarich

by Christina Sarich
Posted on August 29, 2014

monsantoWhere is the justice? Since 1997, Monsanto has filed 145 lawsuits, or on average about 9 lawsuits every year for 16 straight years, against farmers who have “improperly reused their patented seeds.”

The biotech giant hasn’t lost a single case, either. Not one. This includes when farmers tried to sue Monsanto over cross-pollination of their organic crops with GMO seed. For example, a federal court dismissed one of those cases, saying that it couldn’t protect Monsanto against unfair lawsuits should they side in the farmers’ favor.

What about unfair business practices? What about 92% of people saying they want their food labeled if it contains genetically modified ingredients? What about the right of farmers to grow food from seed that hasn’t been altered to turn it into a DNA freak show?


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755


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