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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Does the end justify the means?
    #2211866 - 12/31/03 03:11 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Perhaps this thread might be more appropriate for S&P, but I think it has some relevance to politics as well. A good example is the Iraq war. I think we'll all agree that the Iraqi people are better off now than they were under Saddam. However, does that justify our invasion of a sovereign nation under false pretenses and killing innocent civilians?
Does the end justify the means?
You may choose only one
yes
no
sometimes


Votes accepted from (12/31/03 03:11 PM) to (No end specified)
View the results of this poll



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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: Does the end justify the means? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2211945 - 12/31/03 03:46 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

it may be good to clarify things a little with this poll... are you talking about this iraq situation only or the broader principles of the ends justifying the means?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Does the end justify the means? [Re: ]
    #2211950 - 12/31/03 03:48 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I'm talking about broader principles. If I was just talking about the Iraq War, I wouldn't have put the "sometimes" option in there. If you want another example, you could use welfare. It keeps people from starving to death, but uses initiation of force to do so.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: Does the end justify the means? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2211999 - 12/31/03 04:06 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

i think that there is a false separation between the "ends" and the "means" here. the means contribute to the ends, and are only important insofar as they do so. in the case of the iraq war, the "ends" do include harm done by any exaggerations made in support of the war. the ends include civilians killed. in the case of welfare, the ends include people having money forcefully taken from them, and the negative affects this has on the economy. results are results. some are intended, others are not.

so to answer your question: sometimes.

if i burn down my house to get rid of a termite infestation, the ends do not justify the means.

if i call an exterminator, pay him $200, and sleep at a friend's place while the place is fumigated and the bugs eliminated, then they do.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Does the end justify the means? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2212042 - 12/31/03 04:25 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I think it's a question of moral credibility. The US simply isn't morally credible in removing Saddam after propping him up for decades.

It's like making the green river killer a judge. Sure he'll sentence some bad people to jail which is "good", but he's still the green river killer no matter how much "good" he does.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Does the end justify the means? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2212048 - 12/31/03 04:28 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Actually, seeing the error in your actions, and taking steps to correct them, is morally credible.

If you're not filled with hatred anyway.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Does the end justify the means? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2212054 - 12/31/03 04:32 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I would think that in order to have moral credibility here, we would have to stop supporting ALL murderous tyrants, which unfortunately would mean cutting ties with Saudi Arabia, thus resulting in an oil shortage.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Does the end justify the means? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2212063 - 12/31/03 04:38 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

You're right. We should.

But one step at a time is better than no steps at all.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Anonymous

Re: Does the end justify the means? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2212082 - 12/31/03 04:48 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

it seems that some people have misunderstood the poll. unless the majority here actually believe that in no circumstance does the ends ever justify the means. in that case, it is wrong to do anything.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Does the end justify the means? [Re: ]
    #2212087 - 12/31/03 04:51 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
it seems that some people have misunderstood the poll. unless the majority here actually believe that in no circumstance does the ends ever justify the means. in that case, it is wrong to do anything.



I don't see why it would be wrong to do anything. If the means do not involve any initiation of force, then they justify themselves, and thus do not require the end to justify them.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: Does the end justify the means? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2212112 - 12/31/03 05:02 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

the poll only asks if the ends can justify the means. they don't specify that the "means" include an initiation of force, or even something negative at all.

to eat a bowl of cereal, you need to get milk out of the fridge, a bowl out of the cupboard, and cereal from the pantry. then you can eat your cereal. i would say that in that situation, the ends justify the means.

i could kill a man for his wallet and have some extra cash and some credit cards. in that case, the ends would not justify the means.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Does the end justify the means? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2212120 - 12/31/03 05:06 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I'm guessing most are responding to your example rather than to a general question.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Does the end justify the means? [Re: ]
    #2212122 - 12/31/03 05:07 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

You seem to have missed my point. In cases where no initiation of force is involved, no justification is needed, so the end doesn't justify the means, since the means are self-justified.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Does the end justify the means? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2212124 - 12/31/03 05:08 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
I'm guessing most are responding to your example rather than to a general question.



Which example? The first(Iraq war) or the second(welfare)?


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Does the end justify the means? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2212127 - 12/31/03 05:10 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

The first since it's right there with the poll.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Anonymous

Re: Does the end justify the means? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2212128 - 12/31/03 05:13 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

You seem to have missed my point. In cases where no initiation of force is involved, no justification is needed, so the end doesn't justify the means, since the means are self-justified.

ah... i read nothing about an initiation of force. in that case, i would say no.

(and i do think that a few people of the people who put "no" will have to change their response if they want to be consistant).


Edited by Anonymous (12/31/03 05:15 PM)


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Does the end justify the means? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2212144 - 12/31/03 05:25 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

So the statement "The ends never justify the means." has the same meaning as the phrase "There is nothing worth fighting for."?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Does the end justify the means? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2212148 - 12/31/03 05:26 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I suppose so.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisibletimetravel
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Re: Does the end justify the means? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2212722 - 01/01/04 02:36 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Stop all wars and stop the war on drugs. To try and justify war and the deaths/imprisonment of innocent tools of empire is wrong every time. Long live the McKenna resistance. Just my opinion. Peace


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Everything in this post happened 7 years ago. If you do not feel good get a hobby like r/c airplane flying.


Edited by timetravel (01/01/04 03:29 AM)


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