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thewanderer25
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Ergot Cultivation From Isolated Strains
#22118597 - 08/20/15 08:57 PM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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So with the genetics of rye these days it seems like only wild strains will be able to produce large ergot heads. So I figured instead of changing the rye why not change the ergot surely if there is a way to make rye ergot resent then there is a way to make ergot more adapted to new rye (and even better at wild rye). So I was wondering what someone would need to do to make a better kind of ergot and how to introduce this into a field of rye (preferably wild rye when and if I do this).
I also want a high LSA content as well as high yields. If anyone has worked with ergot or knows much about it let me know all ive seen is what i've read in practical LSD manufacturing but im sure a biologist would know more than a chemist (the author of the book) on the subject. A general run down is helpful I know about cubensis growing but this not even the same kind of fungus so agar and all that is iffy. Anyways ill stop talking but if you know much about ergot cultivation on a large scale or strain isolations of this particular fungus let me know.
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thewanderer25
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Re: Ergot Cultivation From Isolated Strains [Re: thewanderer25]
#22126753 - 08/22/15 12:53 PM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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Bump
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mackrel
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Re: Ergot Cultivation From Isolated Strains [Re: thewanderer25]
#22127830 - 08/22/15 04:38 PM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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The information provided herein is not intended to be used for the production of illicit substances and is only for the purpose of informing the public.
First off, your wording is really confusing. I think you are asking how to produce a hyper virulent strain of ergot that will infect rye at a high rate. This is not easy to do without a lot of time and training in both plant and microbial selective breeding techniques, but with these skills and time and patience (generally A LOT of this unless you get lucky) it can be achieved. This is also not a complicated task and can easily be done assuming the appropriate resources are available, like a lab and greenhouse.
I am not sure what you mean when you say "the genetics of rye these days" but as far as I know, there are no fully resistant strains of rye to ergot and there are definitely highly susceptible strains of rye just google 'ergot susceptible rye strain.'
In regards to improving LSA yields, you once again need many years of training in either ergot production, isolation, and LSA extraction or at least the ability to amplify genetic material and search for LSA genes which need to be identified (if they haven't been) in the first place before you can start estimating LSA production based on genetic material. Of course if you have isolated the LSA gene then you could (with a lot of training!) insert that gene into the ergot specimen you have as a constitutively expressed gene and it would probably pump out lots of LSA but again... you need training! Actually as far as I know, ergot doesn't actually produce significant amoumts LSA but does produce lots of ergotamines which are structurally similar.
Regardless of all of this, trying to inoculate a field of rye with ergot and then extract it is ridiculous and time consuming and as far as I know isn't used by many if any LSD manufacturers (you'd need about 10 acres for a decent batch which is a crap load of work to harvest and isloate). I don't manufacture illicit substances because I make my living performing biochemical research (on fungi and other microorganisms) in laboratories but I do know that Claviceps purpurea can be readily grown in a media as outlined here to produce ergot alkaloids which are easily used to create LSD without the need for LSA isolation as per Hoffman's LSA isolation-free technique of LSD production (look it up).
At the end of the day, don't try to inoculate a rye field you may just end up ruining the rye of honest farmers who live down wind from wherever it is you inoculate and then you have the added hassle of trying to extract ergot from a whole f'ing field of rye which requires a lot of time, labor, and equipment. -mackrel
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thewanderer25
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Re: Ergot Cultivation From Isolated Strains [Re: mackrel]
#22128885 - 08/22/15 10:08 PM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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Thanks man ive got my chemistry down and know how to extract the LSA and alkaloids i've done it a few times. But the issue is im trying to replicate hoffman's original formula in a scaled down way it would only need 3 to 4 grams of crystal alkaloids some solvents acids basis hydrazine and dimethylamine to get a gram of pure magic. I suppose one 10 acer field of substable rye would produce my desired ergot.
But I was just trying to get as much ergot as possible the more I have the more I can make but I was just wondering more about how to level out the potency as well as the growth but it seems a strain isolation of a highly potent one and a susceptible strain of rye should work out.
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Mrcloudy
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Re: Ergot Cultivation From Isolated Strains [Re: thewanderer25]
#22131835 - 08/23/15 04:58 PM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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I saw some photos from a lab a while back where they were culturing ergot in liquid culture flasks. I don't recall if it was a clandestine lab or a proper pharmaceutical lab.
They had a uv light shone on the liquid and the whole flask glowed like a glowstick That's about all I know about ergot
--------------------
10 different Ganoderma species from across the USA AMU MrCloudys guide to North American GanodermaUpdated A rough guide to North American Ganoderma species, with an emphasis on the laccate species.
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drake89
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Re: Ergot Cultivation From Isolated Strains [Re: thewanderer25] 1
#22131970 - 08/23/15 05:26 PM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
thewanderer25 said: Thanks man ive got my chemistry down and know how to extract the LSA and alkaloids i've done it a few times. But the issue is im trying to replicate hoffman's original formula in a scaled down way it would only need 3 to 4 grams of crystal alkaloids some solvents acids basis hydrazine and dimethylamine to get a gram of pure magic. I suppose one 10 acer field of substable rye would produce my desired ergot.
But I was just trying to get as much ergot as possible the more I have the more I can make but I was just wondering more about how to level out the potency as well as the growth but it seems a strain isolation of a highly potent one and a susceptible strain of rye should work out.
you seem to be ignoring what he said that liquid culture is what people are doing these days. i remember some russian posting a picture that mr. cloudy is referencing.
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mackrel
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Re: Ergot Cultivation From Isolated Strains [Re: thewanderer25] 1
#22132407 - 08/23/15 06:56 PM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
thewanderer25 said: Thanks man ive got my chemistry down and know how to extract the LSA and alkaloids i've done it a few times.
I wouldn't worry about LSA extraction that is extra work and materials and time... Hoffman pioneered a much simpler synthesis with no LSA extraction necessary and it is much easier to grow ergot in a liquid culture than in a field of rye... and it's faster if you have a specimen isolated already. It's arguably safer in liquid culture as well for multiple reasons, least of which is cultivating a toxic parasite in the wild (still have to worry about going crazy and rotting from the stuff though) which can probably earn you some sort of ecoterrorism badge.
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420Experience
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Re: Ergot Cultivation From Isolated Strains [Re: thewanderer25]
#22134942 - 08/24/15 10:44 AM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
thewanderer25 said: Thanks man ive got my chemistry down and know how to extract the LSA and alkaloids i've done it a few times. But the issue is im trying to replicate hoffman's original formula in a scaled down way it would only need 3 to 4 grams of crystal alkaloids some solvents acids basis hydrazine and dimethylamine to get a gram of pure magic. I suppose one 10 acer field of substable rye would produce my desired ergot.
But I was just trying to get as much ergot as possible the more I have the more I can make but I was just wondering more about how to level out the potency as well as the growth but it seems a strain isolation of a highly potent one and a susceptible strain of rye should work out.
Hydrazine is no toy and shouldn't be used or acquired by anyone that doesn't have proper training and experience. I am a firm believer in protecting those around you and working with stuff that you have no business working with is not just a danger to yourself, but in this case a pretty big radius for which other people could be occupying also. If you don't believe this, you have to get special certification and approval to use hydrazine in the labs that I work. And to remove any additional doubt of safety, it is reactive enough to be used in various rocket fuels...
-------------------- And as far as I'm concerned, it's like I say, drugs are not the problem. Other stuff is the problem. ~Jerry Garcia I am a catepillar surfing on smoke through Shpongleland...
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thewanderer25
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Re: Ergot Cultivation From Isolated Strains [Re: 420Experience]
#22137979 - 08/24/15 10:28 PM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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Dont worry I would keep it in a salt form until I was ready and that would be way out in the booneys. I get this is not a toy or something to undertake lightly that's why I will continue to learn for the next few years im also studying proper disposal of waste and get that just flushing or dumping the chemicals without de activating them can be a very bad thing.
It is my intention to take all the necessary steps of safety for both the public and me however if worst comes to worst I will be very very far away from the general public but still once ive learned enough im sure I will be fine. Ive also asked permission to sit in on some classes in organic chemistry at a college I dont do tests or pay or get a degree but I can still sit there and learn. Its free and as long as im truly tying my hardest im sure I can learn its to bad I dont have the cash to enroll but they dont care as long as I get no degree and just sit there.
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420Experience
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Re: Ergot Cultivation From Isolated Strains [Re: thewanderer25]
#22139971 - 08/25/15 09:47 AM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
thewanderer25 said: Dont worry I would keep it in a salt form until I was ready and that would be way out in the booneys. I get this is not a toy or something to undertake lightly that's why I will continue to learn for the next few years im also studying proper disposal of waste and get that just flushing or dumping the chemicals without de activating them can be a very bad thing.
It is my intention to take all the necessary steps of safety for both the public and me however if worst comes to worst I will be very very far away from the general public but still once ive learned enough im sure I will be fine. Ive also asked permission to sit in on some classes in organic chemistry at a college I dont do tests or pay or get a degree but I can still sit there and learn. Its free and as long as im truly tying my hardest im sure I can learn its to bad I dont have the cash to enroll but they dont care as long as I get no degree and just sit there.
Just because it is in a salt form doesn't mean it is all of the sudden perfectly safe. All the hydrazinium salts I know of break down at relatively low temperatures...
I can't sit here and tell you what to do, but I think this is an utterly foolish idea. Why are you so set on using a process that requires hydrazine when there are plenty of other routes that reduce the potential risks of reagents?
-------------------- And as far as I'm concerned, it's like I say, drugs are not the problem. Other stuff is the problem. ~Jerry Garcia I am a catepillar surfing on smoke through Shpongleland...
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Mrcloudy
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Re: Ergot Cultivation From Isolated Strains [Re: 420Experience]
#22139989 - 08/25/15 09:52 AM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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Forms of Hydrazine are what make false morels toxic, it will cook off when fried, but I have heard people can get ill from standing over the pan while they cook.
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10 different Ganoderma species from across the USA AMU MrCloudys guide to North American GanodermaUpdated A rough guide to North American Ganoderma species, with an emphasis on the laccate species.
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thewanderer25
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Re: Ergot Cultivation From Isolated Strains [Re: Mrcloudy]
#22142518 - 08/25/15 07:02 PM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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Ya man but the hydrazine sulfate should be fine in a proper storage container. And im trying to replicate hoffman's original formula.
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420Experience
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Re: Ergot Cultivation From Isolated Strains [Re: thewanderer25]
#22145359 - 08/26/15 09:52 AM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
thewanderer25 said: Ya man but the hydrazine sulfate should be fine in a proper storage container. And im trying to replicate hoffman's original formula.
Hydrazine sulfate isn't just miraculously safe... Not to mention, Hofmann only used hydrazine for practicality sake. In starting from broad ergot alkaloid stocks, the whole range of alkaloids could be directly converted to the acid hydrazide for synthetic workup. There is no real reason to use this method now, as the same result can be achieved with safer means - for example alkali hydroxide strong base hydrolysis. Synthetic chemistry is a wonderfully interesting field of chemistry. The fruits of others labour mean that you don't have to take unnecessary safety risks because someone has generally found a safer route to the synthetic product over the years. In the case of LSD-25, there are definitely safer alternatives to get to the exact same end product. If you are under the illusion that it is only "proper LSD" when using the same method as Dr. Hofmann did you are very mistaken and this misconception could seemingly be the death of you and others - as you seem to not grasp the amount of risk associated with some of the materials you are speaking so lightly about...
-------------------- And as far as I'm concerned, it's like I say, drugs are not the problem. Other stuff is the problem. ~Jerry Garcia I am a catepillar surfing on smoke through Shpongleland...
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thewanderer25
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Re: Ergot Cultivation From Isolated Strains [Re: 420Experience]
#22149109 - 08/26/15 09:30 PM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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Man I get it I know its dangerous but hoffman's original formula is the original its not just about getting LSD its about replacing the original LSD hoffman produced. Its like beer I know bud light and coors will both do the same thing but to say their the same is true if speaking of drunkenness but they're still different and hoffman made the first LSD so im trying to replicate it. I know it would be easier to do a different synthesis but im not just after LSD im after the original LSD.
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drake89
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Re: Ergot Cultivation From Isolated Strains [Re: thewanderer25]
#22150249 - 08/27/15 08:10 AM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
thewanderer25 said: Man I get it I know its dangerous but hoffman's original formula is the original its not just about getting LSD its about replacing the original LSD hoffman produced. Its like beer I know bud light and coors will both do the same thing but to say their the same is true if speaking of drunkenness but they're still different and hoffman made the first LSD so im trying to replicate it. I know it would be easier to do a different synthesis but im not just after LSD im after the original LSD.
I would hazard a guess that you are not going to be able to do this without an upper level chemistry education. So why don't you read a book? Maybe by the time you're educated, you'll think better of this foolish and dangerous endeavour. And maybe not talk about how you plan on commiting a lot of felonies. Online.
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420Experience
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Re: Ergot Cultivation From Isolated Strains [Re: thewanderer25]
#22151442 - 08/27/15 01:13 PM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
thewanderer25 said: Man I get it I know its dangerous but hoffman's original formula is the original its not just about getting LSD its about replacing the original LSD hoffman produced. Its like beer I know bud light and coors will both do the same thing but to say their the same is true if speaking of drunkenness but they're still different and hoffman made the first LSD so im trying to replicate it. I know it would be easier to do a different synthesis but im not just after LSD im after the original LSD.
There is no difference between LSD produced by a different synthetic method and your "original" LSD. Unlike beer, we are discussing a single molecule and not a mixture - making the Bud Light-Coors analogy a rather poor example. I'm not sure if this is a lack of understanding on your part or intentional ignorance, but it is misconceptions like this and the poor choices that follow as a result that result in unnecessary injuries. I think that you need to work on increasing your chemistry proficiency substantially - including working on some more basic syntheses (no, extractions like DMT and mescaline don't count here) - before you consider this even remotely as a possible project for you to undertake...
-------------------- And as far as I'm concerned, it's like I say, drugs are not the problem. Other stuff is the problem. ~Jerry Garcia I am a catepillar surfing on smoke through Shpongleland...
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micro
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Re: Ergot Cultivation From Isolated Strains [Re: 420Experience]
#22163439 - 08/30/15 04:42 AM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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How do you know it's ergot? Are you going to run a PCR? Eulich's reagent?
I found an old text that had a simple way to make lysergic acid.
If that was from 1918 it can't be that hard to synth.
And I remember growing ergot is tough (I believe it's a pathogen and they are notorious for that). Yes, it is rye but you can't just leave rye bread out in a moist atmosphere. It would probably be easier to look where it is abundant, take samples and test (without PCR I don't know how; many fungi produce indole alkaloids)
THEN when you have a pure sterile culture you can worry about LB/TB/whatever.
Also, I don't knowwhy this is coming into my head but I remember a problem oxygenating the cultures. You could alwys bite the bullet and get some used lab gear.
Any more info and... well, it's out there. Just ignore the articles next to the ones about licking toads :V
oh, edit: yes -- rye. I think it's always been that way.
-------------------- Any research paper or book for free (Avatar is Maxxy, a character by Mizzyam, RIP)
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Ergot Cultivation From Isolated Strains [Re: thewanderer25] 1
#22163498 - 08/30/15 05:51 AM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
thewanderer25 said: So with the genetics of rye these days it seems like only wild strains will be able to produce large ergot heads.
This is factually incorrect.
The genetics of the rye have nothing to do with the genetics of fungus.
If you have a viable ergot fungus it will grow on organically produced rye.
These are from commercial rye berries spread out on the ground just as the fall rainy season hit. The following year they sprouted and produced. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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thewanderer25
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Re: Ergot Cultivation From Isolated Strains [Re: micro]
#22164300 - 08/30/15 11:08 AM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
micro said: How do you know it's ergot? Are you going to run a PCR? Eulich's reagent?
I found an old text that had a simple way to make lysergic acid.
If that was from 1918 it can't be that hard to synth.
And I remember growing ergot is tough (I believe it's a pathogen and they are notorious for that). Yes, it is rye but you can't just leave rye bread out in a moist atmosphere. It would probably be easier to look where it is abundant, take samples and test (without PCR I don't know how; many fungi produce indole alkaloids)
THEN when you have a pure sterile culture you can worry about LB/TB/whatever.
Also, I don't knowwhy this is coming into my head but I remember a problem oxygenating the cultures. You could alwys bite the bullet and get some used lab gear.
Any more info and... well, it's out there. Just ignore the articles next to the ones about licking toads :V
oh, edit: yes -- rye. I think it's always been that way.
Im just going to wash it with non polar solvents in a burette till it drips clear. Then I will freebase the alkaloids with ammonia and extract it with chloroform. Or better yet use 1/10th ammonia to nine-tenths of methanol then it should mix and can be added to chloroform. Then once it dries out I can get it into some either and mix with tartaric-acid to keep the junk in the either and salt out the LSA. It should be fairly pure as not everything will fall out because of the tartaric-acid.
Oh and holly shit RR commented ive alway wondered if you would be back so basicly get some ergot out of somens farm and spread it in my organic rye one? Do you know how many acres of rye I would need to get say 5 pounds of ergot?
Edited by thewanderer25 (08/30/15 11:15 AM)
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micro
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Re: Ergot Cultivation From Isolated Strains [Re: thewanderer25]
#22164843 - 08/30/15 01:23 PM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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FIVE POUNDS?!?!
I would guess it would take 10-15 years :V
I'd culture it, instead.
Also, I was asking how you could tell it is ergot and not another fungus unless you're sure you can identify it. I'm not sure of anything else that grows on rye that looks like it but I'm not an expert...
-------------------- Any research paper or book for free (Avatar is Maxxy, a character by Mizzyam, RIP)
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