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morrowasted
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On Consciousness, Information, and universal fundamentals
#22118340 - 08/20/15 08:01 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Theories of consciousness are re-entering the academic arena. On the one hand, philosophers like Daniel Dennett try to argue that consciousness is an illusion; that once, all of the phenomena we attribute to conscious experience have been explained in terms of their physical mechanisms, that there is nothing left to explain. I and most philosophers find this explanation unsatisfactory, as explaining the physical mechanisms of vision, for example, does not account for the subjective experience of vision. It appears to be possible for a computer/machine to relay visual input into behavioral output without having any experience (of course, we don't know that it doesn't have one).
So, for most of us, consciousness- subjective experience- remains unexplained.
There is the panpsychist view that every system is conscious at some level, which is rather vague. It also leaves questions like, "What constitutes a system?" I am conscious of the experience I am having, but I am not conscious of the experience you are having. Is an entire rock conscious, or only half of it, or only the individual particles that make it up? There are many holes in this theory.
A more recent incarnation of this notion is "integrated information theory". The idea is roughly that consciousness is present in all systems that are characterized by a nonzero degree of information- thus, anything that isn't a vacuum. This includes photons, rocks, flowers, everything. The same question arises with respect to this theory, however. How do the "bits of consciousness" "add up"? Where is the cutoff? One attempt to dumb down this idea can be found here, in which it is argued that consciousness is a "form of matter" called perceptronium. In my opinion it is fruitless to debate about whether "things" "are" a form of matter or a matter of form(s of consciousness). Instead, if one chooses to think in terms of different kinds of things, which we all do, it is best to merely acknowledge the ways in which they inFORM one another that MATTER.
Finally, and, in my opinion, most appealingly, there is the notion that consciousness is a universal "fundamental". We sometimes treat certain "things" as "fundamental", that is, irreducible, like "space", "time", and "electromagnetism". If we begin to treat consciousness as fundamental in this way, we can work on the laws that govern its behavior, in the same way that special relativity, gravitation, and the various electromagnetic forces that take place at the quantum level have been worked out.
Most people interested in physics are aware of the clumsy disconnect between relativistic laws and electromagnetic laws working at the quantum level. It may, in fact, turn out that if we treat consciousness as fundamental, the laws governing what we now call space, time and electromagnetism will reduce to laws of consciousness; thus, we would no longer treat space, time, and electromagnetism as fundamental but as properties of consciousness.
This would simplify matters greatly it were the case. One would perhaps need only specify the vectors of the universal consciousness in order to determine its properties according to the laws governing consciousness- perhaps spacetime properties, or perhaps other properties. So called electromagnetic laws would probably be completely unnecessary. Of course, this is probably an inconceivable task right now.
In the end, my belief is that although our characterizations of WHAT IS [true] may increasingly augment our ability to manipulate our experience of WHAT IS [true], they will always fail to capture the "truth" they seek, because any characterization of a system, no matter how large, can only characterize [the truth of] that system as it was prior to having been characterized. Truth itself will always escape words.
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morrowasted
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Re: On Consciousness, Information, and universal fundamentals [Re: morrowasted]
#22118532 - 08/20/15 08:43 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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http://www.ted.com/talks/donald_hoffman_do_we_see_reality_as_it_is
Donald Hoffman: Do we see reality as it is?
Evolution favors fitness, not perception of reality.
"I call this conscious realism."
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DividedQuantum
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Re: On Consciousness, Information, and universal fundamentals [Re: morrowasted]
#22119113 - 08/20/15 09:56 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Nice post.
I wonder if you're familiar with David Bohm's ideas. They are extensive and complex, but are distilled somewhat in his "implicate/explicate order" hypothesis, which has a good synopsis here. If you're interested to discuss it, I'd be happy to do so.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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morrowasted
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Re: On Consciousness, Information, and universal fundamentals [Re: DividedQuantum]
#22125586 - 08/22/15 05:32 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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I'll have a look at it while I am at work today
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nuentoter
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Re: On Consciousness, Information, and universal fundamentals [Re: morrowasted]
#22127957 - 08/22/15 05:13 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Posting to follow for now. I will comment when I'm not on a tablet. It can get frustrating typing on a non-swype keyboard.
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The geometry of us is no chance. We are antennae, we are tuning forks, we are receiver and transmitters of all energy. We are more than we know. - @entheolove "I found I could say things with color and shapes that I couldn't say any other way - things I had no words for" - Georgia O'Keefe I think the word is vagina
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morrowasted
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Re: On Consciousness, Information, and universal fundamentals [Re: DividedQuantum]
#22130925 - 08/23/15 01:26 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said: Nice post.
I wonder if you're familiar with David Bohm's ideas. They are extensive and complex, but are distilled somewhat in his "implicate/explicate order" hypothesis, which has a good synopsis here. If you're interested to discuss it, I'd be happy to do so.
This is very deep and maps onto a lot of the concepts with which I am familiar.
In Bohm’s conception of order, primacy is given to the undivided whole, and the implicate order inherent within the whole, rather than to parts of the whole, such as particles, quantum states, and continua. For Bohm, the whole encompasses all things, structures, abstractions, and processes, including processes that result in (relatively) stable structures as well as those that involve a metamorphosis of structures or things. In this view, parts may be entities normally regarded as physical, such as atoms or subatomic particles, but they may also be abstract entities, such as quantum states. Whatever their nature and character, according to Bohm, these parts are considered in terms of the whole, and in such terms, they constitute relatively separate and independent "sub-totalities." The implication of the view is, therefore, that nothing is fundamentally separate or independent.
Ahem... Brahman, Tao, Ouroboros, etc.
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DividedQuantum
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Re: On Consciousness, Information, and universal fundamentals [Re: morrowasted] 1
#22131370 - 08/23/15 03:30 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Very able synopsis, that is all right. Further advantages of his framework are that we can observe and understand his concept at multiple levels. For example, the light in a room can be seen as an implicate order. So can a symphony performance, or a movie. There are many such manifestations. Even this paragraph can exhibit aspects of an implicate order whose whole unfolds into a single phrase being read, which then re-enfolds into the whole body of the text once more. It's as if the universe is learning all the time, in some abstract way.
Also, Bohm's "Ontological interpretation" of quantum mechanics utilizes these principles, and develops a mathematics which determines the wave function's solution in terms of a guiding equation, or guide wave (also known as a 'quantum potential'). There is in theory one universal wave function, which never collapses, given by this quantum potential.
More can be read about the physics here.
Incidentally, Bohm's approach explains the mystery behind the infamous "double-slit" experiment:
Quote:
In de Broglie–Bohm theory, the wavefunction is defined at both slits, but each particle has a well-defined trajectory that passes through exactly one of the slits. The final position of the particle on the detector screen and the slit through which the particle passes is determined by the initial position of the particle. Such initial position is not knowable or controllable by the experimenter, so there is an appearance of randomness in the pattern of detection. In Bohm's 1952 papers he used the wavefunction to construct a quantum potential that, when included in Newton's equations, gave the trajectories of the particles streaming through the two slits. In effect the wave function interferes with itself and guides the particles via the quantum potential in such a way that the particles avoid the regions in which the interference is destructive and are attracted to the regions in which the interference is constructive, resulting in the interference pattern on the detector screen.
To explain the behavior when the particle is detected to go through one slit, one needs to appreciate the role of the conditional wavefunction and how it results in the collapse of the wavefunction... The basic idea is that the environment registering the detection effectively separates the two wave packets in configuration space.
All in all, a most useful and illuminating set of ideas.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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BrendanFlock
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Re: On Consciousness, Information, and universal fundamentals [Re: DividedQuantum]
#22137209 - 08/24/15 07:40 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Random..the theory of Randomization is an Articulation of the logic of time..and the meaning is beyond the bounce or longevity..of the foremost logic which is a cu(rve)be..and the meaning is inside reality to the great degree of the times of logic..which in cubits..is a quanta..and the quanta is in Q-Bits..which are Quibits..inside this computer is the laser of Entropy..and this is the decimal in which we (tree) regard the opinions of laser..which are prognostrous and viable in the affinity of time..which is a cube..the hypercube philosophy..is part of the Magery Scandal..which is that your skill at Magery..or Magick..is an honest partaking of the nutrients of life..and therein you get Consciousness...Whcih is a Damsel in Distress..(or that this is reflective of my personal Psychology) And so on..which means we create for the benefit of ourselves and others..to the degree that a Trow..Can Run..is indeed in inescapable definitions of time, to the degree of certainty..which is a perfect tempered format..for the view of time to be true..we must have motion..or else the clock would not tick..or the the clock wont tick..or Tock..Tick Tock Clock.and the ruins of Manure..the Holy Earth..on an Onslaught..to the degree of the mason atonement..which is that good skill is kind of hideen or secret..only because as a generation we are not as outgoing as our formers..take Jesus Christ..who Performed Miracles..or the Buddha..who walked through war Theatres..and then we Take Alexander the Great..as an Archetype as the Father of Rome..a Holy Roman Creator..the need is to the deputy of time..in that what you create is part of your consciousness..and the degree is in its exacticity..and the elastic report card is a degree in the circuit of geometry..and the degree in relatio to the forward..and backward curiosty..the meaning is beyond the blue..and the meaning is the relentless restlessness that we get on Shrooms..
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nuentoter
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Re: On Consciousness, Information, and universal fundamentals [Re: BrendanFlock] 1
#22147352 - 08/26/15 04:01 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Extremely interesting stuff, I've been doing some reading on the subject by Bohm, and Dennet and a few others. I must say that I may start to agree that the rules of consciousness may supersede laws governing various scientific things in the physics/quantum realm and more. The idea that for a person to interact with anything around them they must be conscious of themself as a singular entity and the object to interact with as a singular entity that is not under direct control of the self. To interact with the ground there is an agreement between the atoms and particles that make up my foot and the particles and atoms that make up the earth. These particles must be conscious that they are separate entities and not the same entity otherwise my foot would become part of the dirt. This idea can be better laid out than my example but that's my understanding at least. Fractalization of a concept or idea helps to ensure that it may be a viable rule. So does this seem to apply universally to matter regardless of size/scope/environmental condition/extrapolation/division/etc...? I believe it may. If you zoom out this idea to a broad spectrum you can see where Bohm's ideas really come into play. Our solar system can be a contained singular entity within the scope of the entire universe. It is a separate thing which must realize its individuality otherwise we would be everywhere all at once. This process of thinking reduces things down to either A or B or C or so on..... A, B, and C can only exist if there is an alphabet. If you have A and C but no B there is no alphabet simply and incomplete grouping of like letters. The parts are implicate of the whole. The ground's acknowledgement of my foot and vice versa could not exist without the whole of my foot being a part of my leg which is part of my body which is ...... so on. and the same with the earth. Everything relies on everything else in even the smallest most unknown ways. I exist therefore the universe must exist and vice versa.
At least my thoughts on the idea. makes my mind run and race. I like it.
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The geometry of us is no chance. We are antennae, we are tuning forks, we are receiver and transmitters of all energy. We are more than we know. - @entheolove "I found I could say things with color and shapes that I couldn't say any other way - things I had no words for" - Georgia O'Keefe I think the word is vagina
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Kurt
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Re: On Consciousness, Information, and universal fundamentals [Re: morrowasted] 1
#22149329 - 08/26/15 10:32 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Philosophers have perennially asked what do we mean by "being"? Maybe many people today are asking what do we mean by "information"? In what capacity, and what prospect does that enquiry open?
I have heard of information ontology is popular in IT. (My Dad is an engineer). It is interesting that cut throat buisnessmen are bearing forth these resemblances to philosophy. Of course; it's slightly uncanny too. Information is power in our world...
Anyway here would be a general response;
Hegel interpreted form and matter, in capacity of form (geist) and called it "form and content", in an absolute ideal. I can see the turn could be similarly made here. But whereto?
Whereas Hegel is talking about a march to collective, historical actualization (matter informs form; the " object" is what is "held to mind")... I notice the OP points to the possibilities of pragmatics of working with consciousness in a different way, in what seems like a sea like, vibrating, fluctuating medium/media.
Is it even a hymn to purusa or the "true seer", as Patanjali put it in the yoga sutras? Many parallels in consciousness...
Citta Vrtti Nirodhah
Edited by Kurt (08/27/15 10:22 AM)
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nuentoter
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Re: On Consciousness, Information, and universal fundamentals [Re: Kurt]
#22150333 - 08/27/15 08:36 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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I wonder when AI will take steps towards our ability to see analogous situations in almost every aspect of everything around you, all it takes sometimes is insight and imagination on our behalf. How would those ontological connections be made to be intuitive and self creating/destroying depending on outcomes of well informed calculated guesses. The ability to see anything from this computer and its brain and hands and eyes and windows, down to the solitary rock that can be the weight pulling you down and holding you back or the foundational inspiration you need to get through the day. curiouser and curiouser
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The geometry of us is no chance. We are antennae, we are tuning forks, we are receiver and transmitters of all energy. We are more than we know. - @entheolove "I found I could say things with color and shapes that I couldn't say any other way - things I had no words for" - Georgia O'Keefe I think the word is vagina
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