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vatman
I'm Vatman


Registered: 04/17/14
Posts: 1,642
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Spawn bags
#22117129 - 08/20/15 02:56 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Been running into some issues with these in terms of too much moisture. I've been putting grains in dryer than I do for my jars. I've been thinking of adding an additional tablespoon of dry verm to help with this. My grains (whole oats) have a dry shell. So in theory they should be good to go but have been getting bacterial infections due to too much sitting water. These infections are small. It shows up after around 93-98% has been colonized.
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mikesethnobotany
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Re: Spawn bags [Re: vatman]
#22117539 - 08/20/15 04:39 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
vatman said: Been running into some issues with these in terms of too much moisture. I've been putting grains in dryer than I do for my jars. I've been thinking of adding an additional tablespoon of dry verm to help with this. My grains (whole oats) have a dry shell. So in theory they should be good to go but have been getting bacterial infections due to too much sitting water. These infections are small. It shows up after around 93-98% has been colonized.
When the mycelium starts to breakdown the oats you're going to get some resulting water form in the bag. While water does make it easier for bacteria to grow, bacterial growth shouldn't happen if you have fully sterilized the media and use immaculate sterile procedure.
Maybe you could outline how your sterile procedure is done?
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Magos
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I also use whole oats but just for my grain spawn. I usually dry them out a really long time to try to get all the excess moisture out (4+ hours). That works pretty good but I just started experimenting with putting a few dry wood pellets in the bottoms of the jars before filling the jars and pasteurizing. Just started trying this 2 days ago so I don't know how it will work yet. It does successfully soak up all the excess moisture that would normally pool in the bottom though, that part I can confirm.
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vatman
I'm Vatman


Registered: 04/17/14
Posts: 1,642
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Re: Spawn bags [Re: Magos]
#22117708 - 08/20/15 05:23 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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I pressure cook them for 2 hours @ 15 PSI. The grain bags have a tyvek envelop in them to allow air flow.(They don't get vacumed sealed I've read that to not be an issue) I do a grain to grain transfer. The grain jars are alcohol sterilized all over with medical gaze. Pressure cooker is open up in the room with the flow hood. I'm careful to not touch the openings of the bags.
I've read that not everything is killed during pressure cooking process and excessive water promotes water growth of bacteria.
Ill take some pictures of my last batch here in a sec.
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vatman
I'm Vatman


Registered: 04/17/14
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Re: Spawn bags [Re: vatman]
#22117780 - 08/20/15 05:37 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Don't mind my filthy hands. I work maintenance and just got off shift.
Edited by vatman (08/20/15 05:45 PM)
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Jim Morrison
Lizard King



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Re: Spawn bags [Re: vatman]
#22117886 - 08/20/15 06:00 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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-------------------- Jim Morrison's Trade List Live Long and Myceliate! The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Ayn Rand
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mikesethnobotany
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Registered: 07/29/11
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I agree that water is causing some problems, I'm not sure how to fix that. The idea with verm or adding some wood pellets seems like a good option.
Do you notice the wet looking grains at the top ?

When I do spawn jars that is usually a telltale sign of contam if the jars have been colonized and I can see wet grains in some areas. If that is contam near the top of the bag then that would likely be due to a problem with your sterile procedure, and would definitely exacerbate the effect of excess water.
Not trying to say you suck at sterile procedure, but I'm just offering some opinion.
Do you notice any contamination issues in your primary grain spawn (e.g. the grain you use to inoculate the next set of grain)?
Edited by mikesethnobotany (08/20/15 06:54 PM)
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vatman
I'm Vatman


Registered: 04/17/14
Posts: 1,642
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The top of it looks fine. There is no contams on the top.

I also do 4 bags of grain at a time. So that's a lot of grain prep when I do bulk bags.. I let them sit in strainers for 2 hours than leave them in a laundry basket overnight.
If my jars have "Wet spots" I don't use them as that's the start of bacteria.

Those could be start of bacteria.. if so.
Edited by vatman (08/20/15 07:26 PM)
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poofterFroth
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Re: Spawn bags [Re: vatman]
#22118265 - 08/20/15 07:36 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Kinda looks like it's just stressing out from being over colonized for a few days.. Use it or refrigerate before it gets to that point.
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vatman
I'm Vatman


Registered: 04/17/14
Posts: 1,642
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Referring to the bag or the jar?
If bag, those grains never fully colonize than I get the metabolites.
Edited by vatman (08/20/15 07:46 PM)
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vatman
I'm Vatman


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Re: Spawn bags [Re: vatman]
#22118336 - 08/20/15 08:00 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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This bag I thought was going to contam. I threw it in my bathroom walked over it a few times and so on. I than threw it in the trash. I ended up taking it out of the trash after I saw that it was almost fully colonized. As you can see where the water is pooling at the bottom is where it does not want to grow. This one is shiitake and the other one was blue oysters. This one I did add some verm before PCing and the water content is a lot lower.
Edited by vatman (08/20/15 08:01 PM)
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drake89
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Re: Spawn bags [Re: vatman] 1
#22118355 - 08/20/15 08:05 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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i don't see any problems with those bags. i only consider it a problem if you have patches that are uncolonized. even then, they are acceptable for bulk substrate inoculation. just don't use the infected bits. i only see uncolonized individual grains that are right up against the bag. maybe don't use them for transfers, and make your grains drier next time.
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mikesethnobotany
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Re: Spawn bags [Re: vatman]
#22118366 - 08/20/15 08:07 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
vatman said: The top of it looks fine. There is no contams on the top.

I also do 4 bags of grain at a time. So that's a lot of grain prep when I do bulk bags.. I let them sit in strainers for 2 hours than leave them in a laundry basket overnight.
If my jars have "Wet spots" I don't use them as that's the start of bacteria.

Those could be start of bacteria.. if so.
I was referring to the other bag you posted, which looked like some contaminated grains on the top (on the side of the top to clarify)
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mikesethnobotany
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Re: Spawn bags [Re: drake89]
#22118379 - 08/20/15 08:10 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
drake89 said: i don't see any problems with those bags. i only consider it a problem if you have patches that are uncolonized. even then, they are acceptable for bulk substrate inoculation. just don't use the infected bits. i only see uncolonized individual grains that are right up against the bag. maybe don't use them for transfers, and make your grains drier next time.
I agree
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hamloaf
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Re: Spawn bags [Re: vatman]
#22118403 - 08/20/15 08:15 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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See that you are sterilizing your grain bags at 15psi for 2 hours. What size/how much grains are you sterilizing in each bag at a time?
Bags filled with 4 quarts of freshly cooked grains are sterilized for 3 hours at 17-20 psi by this cultivator. The extra time coupled with the higher psi's ensures that cores of large grain substrates reach and are kept at the the correct temperature for the proper amount of time to achieve proper sterilization.
Colonizing grain spawn in bags generate a good deal of heat. Your condensation is a tall tell sign of the differentiation of temperature between the inside of the media vessel to the outside ambient temperature. Fluctuating ambient temperatures cause condensation. Solution. Keep your incubation/colonization temperature at a sustainable constant. Desired temperature range; 70-75F. For the incubation of large bags of grain spawn this cultivator prefers to incubate in the 68-72F range.
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vatman
I'm Vatman


Registered: 04/17/14
Posts: 1,642
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Quote:
drake89 said: i don't see any problems with those bags. i only consider it a problem if you have patches that are uncolonized. even then, they are acceptable for bulk substrate inoculation. just don't use the infected bits. i only see uncolonized individual grains that are right up against the bag. maybe don't use them for transfers, and make your grains drier next time.
Quote:
mikesethnobotany said:
Quote:
vatman said: The top of it looks fine. There is no contams on the top.

I also do 4 bags of grain at a time. So that's a lot of grain prep when I do bulk bags.. I let them sit in strainers for 2 hours than leave them in a laundry basket overnight.
If my jars have "Wet spots" I don't use them as that's the start of bacteria.

Those could be start of bacteria.. if so.
I was referring to the other bag you posted, which looked like some contaminated grains on the top (on the side of the top to clarify)
I just contributed that to excessive moisture on the side of the bag. Other than the sides and some areas on the bottom it looks good. I just want to improve on this issue.
Quote:
drake89 said: i don't see any problems with those bags. i only consider it a problem if you have patches that are uncolonized. even then, they are acceptable for bulk substrate inoculation. just don't use the infected bits. i only see uncolonized individual grains that are right up against the bag. maybe don't use them for transfers, and make your grains drier next time.
I've cut away the areas in question than gave the remaining a good rinse moved to bulk just fine. I just want to lower unwanted bacteria prences in my area. Btw i walked over that second bag 5 or 6 times and still turned out like that lol
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vatman
I'm Vatman


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Posts: 1,642
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Re: Spawn bags [Re: hamloaf]
#22118440 - 08/20/15 08:23 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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I use an all American pressure cooker. I would need to tamper with the weight to get it above 15 psi unless they sell those at as a separate item.
It's 2 hours min. I space the bags. Ill try 3 hours. I never seem to have issues at the center of the bags. My place though dosen't have the best cooling. It does get up to 84-87 even with the cooling on(hot days) I couldn't tell you how much grain as I size it to the bag.
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hamloaf
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Re: Spawn bags [Re: vatman]
#22118473 - 08/20/15 08:31 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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The temperature swings in your spawning are causing your condensation issue. IF your ambient highs are reaching 87F once the ambient temperature cools to it's low point BAM! Condensation forms. This process is repeated, therefore coupled, every time the ambient temperature in your spawning area swings several degrees. Temperatures exceeding 80F slows mycelial growth and encourages the growth of mold and bacteria.
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vatman
I'm Vatman


Registered: 04/17/14
Posts: 1,642
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Re: Spawn bags [Re: hamloaf]
#22118491 - 08/20/15 08:35 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Damn that really sucks. I rent and all I have is a swamp cooler. I may need to make an indoor cooler than. I thought it was me preparing moisture content wrong
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bryanbzl
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Re: Spawn bags [Re: vatman]
#22118568 - 08/20/15 08:50 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Hey vat.
When I used bags I had the same problem with hard red winter wheat. Bags are a lot denser and a larger mass then jars. sometimes the 2 hours is not enough. I almost do 2 hours for my jars. I would bump it up to 2.5 hours. also I now use some mulch mixed into my jars for 2 reasons. firstly because it trains the mycelium to grow on its destined bulk substrate (mulch) and secondly because the mulch, straight out of the bag, is slightly moist but still capable of absorbing a lot of excess water. Verm is pricey and I don't really support its productions. but that is my own choice. It should work just as well. But if you want give the mulch a shot. I get the scotts mulch bags for 5-7 bucks for a huge bag. Cuts down on overall grain cost and mushies love wood! 
Hope this helps!
-------------------- Cheers, bzl -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "From 1898 through to 1910 heroin was marketed as a non-addictive morphine substitute and cough medicine for children." conclusion: poor fucking children of the early 1900's.
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